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Author Topic: Canon sows FUD  (Read 34718 times)

michael

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2015, 10:37:02 am »

Comparisons between real-world images taken with Sony versus Canon sensors show big differences in the shadows in noise, not just banding.

We will have a major report on this topic some time next week.

Michael
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2015, 10:41:17 am »

I was an invited guest to the Canon Technology Showcase in NYC at the Javits when the 120MP chip was shown 5 years ago.

That's why this week's announcement looks like FUD. Either ship it already, or shut up till it's ready.

Michael




@ dpreview forums there was a note that Canon showed R&D 50mp prototype in 2007... we have 50mp production camera in 2015... 120mp prototype was shown in 2010.... http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3900212

why so much emotions ?

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rdonson

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2015, 10:47:09 am »

Correct Ron, Canon is not responding, they're sticking to their planning. The speed may seem glacial at times, but it's hard to stop them from delivering useful products as time goes by. I have a bit more of an issue with how fast e.g. Sony products get phased out (leading to service issues), and replaced by newer versions. Lot's of built in obsolescence in those products.

Cheers,
Bart

Yes, Bart, that's what large corporations do.  Kodak stuck with their planning and product managers as well.  So did IBM before being forced to sell off large chunks of their company and product lines and tens of thousands of employees.

The problem is more about the pace of innovation and the changing marketplace.  Computer tech, which is what drives our digital cameras, advances in 1-2 year cycles.  

Canon competitors like Fuji seem to continually rev their firmware offering new or improved features to the delight of their customers.   In the meantime I have to load open source firmware to get features for my older Canon's that they should have provided such as:
- auto ETTR
- intervalometer
- better bracketing features
- custom AF patterns
- better auto focus adjustments
- etc.

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Regards,
Ron

NancyP

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2015, 10:59:51 am »

Heck, I don't know - is there a big SpyCon or industrial imaging conference coming up soon? The 120 and 250 MP sensors would seem to be best suited for governmental / industrial uses - not consumer or imaging pro uses.

Canon is slow on the sort of sensors some photographers want - but you have to hand it to their lens division, which has been coming up with outstanding zooms in the last few years.

I am still in the land of 20-ish MP. More MP might be nice, but I must admit that I think that shooting hand held under normal conditions would be dicey with a 120 MP camera. More processing of more pixels to remove motion artifact? More dynamic resolution, combined with a simple lossless compression algorithm - that would be nice.

So, is the new Sony A7Rii the medium format killer?
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synn

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2015, 11:05:11 am »


So, is the new Sony A7Rii the medium format killer?

Are you Pandora and is that a box you're opening?
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2015, 11:14:04 am »

The 120 and 250 MP sensors would seem to be best suited for governmental / industrial uses - not consumer or imaging pro uses.

plz refer to 640Kb "quote" attributed popularly to Bill Gates

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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2015, 12:01:19 pm »

They already have a functioning 250 Mpx sensor, so it shouldn't take too long to bring it to consumer market: http://www.canon.com/news/2015/sep07e.html

And I think they will still beat Sony in the race for number 1... Wasn't Sony that said 5 years ago that their target was to be number 1?

jduncan

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2015, 01:08:21 pm »

Hi Michael,

No, I do not see how this would instill Fear into anybody, and Uncertainty and Doubt (some people with low self-esteem get scared very easily) are better treated by professionals in the medical field.

I just view the announcements as progress feedback, and they are not the first reports about their many research projects. Do remember that Canon is a leading company in the field of patent applications and grants, anually ranking in the very top (at #3 amongst the IBMs and Samsungs of this world), for more than a decade (or two). Some people occasionally need to be reminded of that feat, and understand that Canon sets its own pace based on a very long planning horizon (typical of many Japanese companies).

Cheers,
Bart

Could not agree more. FUD will need to be directed to other company products. By example: you never know if RED will exist in 6 moths with all the crisis in China, Canon is a solid multigenerational company. Something along those  lines.

The always announcing something better is the strategy that Adobe employees against Aperture, and the bloggers were always comparing the beta version of Lightroom vs the current, production version of Aperture.  I will give canon a pass, even in this sense,  since they are not targeting anybody, and do not have the kind of reviewer control that adobe has.

They are trying to access that they still investing in sensors. They need it.

Best regards,
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2015, 01:22:09 pm »

Could not agree more. FUD will need to be directed to other company products. By example: you never know if RED will exist in 6 moths with all the crisis in China, Canon is a solid multigenerational company. Something along those  lines.

The always announcing something better is the strategy that Adobe employees against Aperture, and the bloggers were always comparing the beta version of Lightroom vs the current, production version of Aperture.  I will give canon a pass, even in this sense,  since they are not targeting anybody, and do not have the kind of reviewer control that adobe has.

They are trying to access that they still investing in sensors. They need it.

Best regards,

reminds FUD from DNG proponents about the inevitable end of the world with proprietary raws  :D :D :D ...
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michael

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2015, 02:27:32 pm »

Some people appear to be missing the point, and interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.

Companies employ FUD when they are trying to hold on to their existing customer base, not their competitors.

"We've got something better coming soon..." is employed as FUD when you are afraid that you will lose some of your customer base to a competitor's ostensibly superior product. If a FUD campaign is successful it prevents otherwise loyal customers from abandoning ship. At least until you can actually ship a competitive product.

Michael
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2015, 02:40:55 pm »

Some people appear to be missing the point, and interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.

Companies employ FUD when they are trying to hold on to their existing customer base, not their competitors.

"We've got something better coming soon..." is employed as FUD when you are afraid that you will lose some of your customer base to a competitor's ostensibly superior product. If a FUD campaign is successful it prevents otherwise loyal customers from abandoning ship. At least until you can actually ship a competitive product.

Michael

unlike FUD with DNG, Canon showed 50mp sensor R&D prototype and delivered the 50mp camera (as in you can actually buy it today) - so we know that they deliver... with proprietary raws "scare" we are yet to see anything  :D
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2015, 02:52:37 pm »

Some people appear to be missing the point, and interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.

Companies employ FUD when they are trying to hold on to their existing customer base, not their competitors.

Hi Michael,

Disclosing new products that are not ready for market yet, is not what is generally understood as FUD.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) is a tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations,[1][2] politics and propaganda.

FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information. An individual firm, for example, might use FUD to invite unfavorable opinions and speculation about a competitor's product; to increase the general estimation of switching costs among current customers; or to maintain leverage over a current business partner who could potentially become a rival.

The term originated to describe disinformation tactics in the computer hardware industry[dubious discuss] but has since been used more broadly.[3] FUD is a manifestation of the appeal to fear.

So basically, FUD is a disinformation tactic. Canon is merely informing, not spreading disinformation.

Cheers,
Bart
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MatthewCromer

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2015, 02:53:13 pm »

unlike FUD with DNG, Canon showed 50mp sensor R&D prototype and delivered the 50mp camera (as in you can actually buy it today) - so we know that they deliver... with proprietary raws "scare" we are yet to see anything  :D

Where is their 50MP APS-H sensor camera?

The fact that, 8 years after announcing a 50MP APS-H prototype they finally ship a FF 50MP dSLR seems to be coincidence more than anything else.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2015, 03:12:19 pm »

So basically, FUD is a disinformation tactic. Canon is merely informing, not spreading disinformation.
so true...
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2015, 03:15:09 pm »

Where is their 50MP APS-H sensor camera?

they made a better one - 50mp FF camera...
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eronald

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2015, 03:31:12 pm »

The FUD part is telling your dissatisfied users that a product of your own will be coming, and that to swap suppliers will cost them the churn fee, uselessly.
Of course every supplier wants buyers to stay faithful and captive; some suppliers just get products out fast, others attempt to string along their users by FUD.
In anything related to semiconductors, component prices fall by 40% per year or so; so it is very useful to set a competitive pricepoint early by a preannouncement (when prices are high) and deliver later (when costs are low). This is also responsible for a lot of computer preannouncements.

I don't know whether Canon are playing FUD as part of a premeditated strategy; my feeling is that they wanted to hang on to their obsolescing IC fabs for too long, and also segment the market between video and stills, and it's costing them, so now they are resorting to FUD as an act of despair.

Edmund

« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 03:34:04 pm by eronald »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2015, 03:59:14 pm »

The FUD part is telling your dissatisfied users that a product of your own will be coming, and that to swap suppliers will cost them the churn fee, uselessly.

this is some FUD about what FUD is ;)

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Telecaster

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2015, 04:01:06 pm »

I'd say this is classic FUD in as much as it's surely a response to Sony's A7r2. The point of FUD, as Michael notes, is to minimize user defection. It doesn't mean Canon is rushing product development in response to the Sony, merely that it sees a need to interrupt the current Sony-centric media narrative. FUD is a marketing game, one played by most if not all shrewd players at one point or another.

-Dave-
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Bo Dez

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2015, 04:01:34 pm »

I can only assume Canon didn't fully realise what Sony was up to and capable of. Companies at that level of success are often at fault for not engaging with the customers needs and wants. They can and do lose touch of reality thinking they can stall developments until there is enough competition to do something. I was a long term customer with Canon but they refused to offer anything worthy of upgrading for several iterations and I was tired of everything having issues with their gear, some of it not working, or the lenses being soft, so I jumped ship and have not looked back.

I'm not a Sony shooter but thank heavens for them who have shaken things up nicely and have kept the pace and momentum going, something I think Canon are surprised by. It will have a knock on effect and I'm sure we're going to see things moving in medium format too.
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Bo Dez

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2015, 04:03:43 pm »

I'd say this is classic FUD in as much as it's surely a response to Sony's A7r2. The point of FUD, as Michael notes, is to minimize user defection. It doesn't mean Canon is rushing product development in response to the Sony, merely that it sees a need to interrupt the current Sony-centric media narrative. FUD is a marketing game, one played by most if not all shrewd players at one point or another.

-Dave-

True, but the difference is, that may have worked back in the 80's when there was no internet for people to move ideas around. People are savvy and they see right through this garbage now.
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