Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: michael on September 10, 2015, 07:53:45 am
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Back in the day (and I know many here will remember), when IBM was king, if another company started shipping a computer that was faster or in some way better than anything that IBM then had, they would quickly announce a new model that – on promise at least – blew the competition into the weeds.
At that time, the slogan in business and academia was "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".
Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".
Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael
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Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Hi Michael,
No, I do not see how this would instill Fear into anybody, and Uncertainty and Doubt (some people with low self-esteem get scared very easily) are better treated by professionals in the medical field.
I just view the announcements as progress feedback, and they are not the first reports about their many research projects. Do remember that Canon is a leading company in the field of patent applications and grants, anually ranking in the very top (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/apat.htm#PartB) (at #3 amongst the IBMs and Samsungs of this world), for more than a decade (or two). Some people occasionally need to be reminded of that feat, and understand that Canon sets its own pace based on a very long planning horizon (typical of many Japanese companies).
Cheers,
Bart
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They already have a functioning 250 Mpx sensor, so it shouldn't take too long to bring it to consumer market: http://www.canon.com/news/2015/sep07e.html
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Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Michael
No, I don't see this announcement of a future product being anything "FUDly" because as already posted there is no fear, uncertainty or doubt in this announcement.
What would be FUDly would be if a competitor to Canon were to publish articles warning customers about how their computers won't be able to handle it, that Adobe won't be able to support it, or that this many Mega-pickles has to result in some vague undesired compromise.
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What would be FUDly would be if a competitor to Canon were to publish articles warning customers about how their computers won't be able to handle it, that Adobe won't be able to support it, or that this many Mega-pickles has to result in some vague undesired compromise.
Kinda like how Canon reps were saying for years that Nikon wont be able to make a full frame DSLR as the F mount is too small?
This isn't quite FUD, but more of a panic reaction to the Sony avalanche. I don't expect anything shipped in the immediate future.
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Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".
Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael
Not FUD but perhaps a desperate attempt not to cede sensor tech advances to Sony or an attempt to draw attention away from their nearly non-existent mirrorless offerings. The PR flacks at Canon are revving up their motors in an attempt to stay relevant in a changing market. I think of it as more of a "hey! remember us?" move.
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Back in the day (and I know many here will remember), when IBM was king, if another company started shipping a computer that was faster or in some way better than anything that IBM then had, they would quickly announce a new model that – on promise at least – blew the competition into the weeds.
At that time, the slogan in business and academia was "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".
Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".
Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael
You've just about precisely crystallized my thoughts about this Canon non-announcement announcement.
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Well said, I agree it's FUD.
all it says to me is "please don't leave us for Sony we'll try harder"
They should have said and done something about it 5 years ago. IMO, the horse has bolted while the fat cats were asleep.
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Well said, I agree it's FUD.
all it says to me is "please don't leave us for Sony we'll try harder"
They should have said and done something about it 5 years ago. IMO, the horse has bolted while the fat cats were asleep.
Funny you should mention saying something about this five years ago.
Real artists ship.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2773376832/canon120mpsensor
Where can I buy it?
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Or... Canon 8 years ago announcing their 50 MP sensor
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/04/canon-crams-50-megapixels-into-a-cmos-prototype/
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Or... Canon 8 years ago announcing their 50 MP sensor
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/04/canon-crams-50-megapixels-into-a-cmos-prototype/
Well, they did finally ship a 50MP camera after 8 years. So I guess that means we might see a 150+ sensor from them, sometime around 2023...
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Yep, 100% FUD.
What's pretty pathetic though is that they seem to think that 120mp is the killer feature when a large majority of photographers are asking for more DR...
Cheers,
Bernard
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What's pretty pathetic though is that they seem to think that 120mp is the killer feature when a large majority of photographers are asking for more DR...
Are they ?
.. or is it for the new iPhone 6s ;)
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What's pretty pathetic though is that they seem to think that 120mp is the killer feature when a large majority of photographers are asking for more DR...
Iliah Borg is arguing in more than one place that your real life flare and glare will anyways limit you to 11 stops max with a perfect combo of the lens, sensor assembly anti-reflective coatings and very good chamber matting... so once/if Canon will fix banding in deep shadows for good, they are close to the target and with 120mp.... profit !
speaking of which - do you have a real life raw shot that can demostrate Iliah 12 stops of DR ? from some of your Nikons ? or even 11 for that matter ? the whole day ahead, I 'd love to see a good discussion.
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Iliah Borg is arguing in more than one place that your real life flare and glare will anyways limit you to 11 stops max with a perfect combo of the lens, sensor assembly anti-reflective coatings and very good chamber matting... so once/if Canon will fix banding in deep shadows for good, they are close to the target and with 120mp.... profit !
Comparisons between real-world images taken with Sony versus Canon sensors show big differences in the shadows in noise, not just banding.
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Yep, 100% FUD.
What's pretty pathetic though is that they seem to think that 120mp is the killer feature when a large majority of photographers are asking for more DR...
It seems to be designed for surveillance and reconnaisance. Not for the everyday snapshooter. And well, a 13168 x 9120 pixel sensor array (2.22 micron pitch) allows for a lot of down-sampling (noise reduction) ..., and at 5 frames per second (!) that allows for some impressive HDRI exposure bracketing as well ;)
Cheers,
Bart
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Comparisons between real-world images taken with Sony versus Canon sensors show big differences in the shadows in noise, not just banding.
surely reducing readout noise @ low gains is good, but the wording was about DR (and low readout noise is just one component there), so you have a raw example illustrating 11 stops from some Nikon D8** series ?
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It seems to be designed for surveillance and reconnaisance.
8K video for 2020 Olympics with 4->1 binning, why not ?
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Or... Canon 8 years ago announcing their 50 MP sensor
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/04/canon-crams-50-megapixels-into-a-cmos-prototype/
Correct Ron, Canon is not reacting, they're sticking to their own planning. The speed may seem glacial at times, but it's hard to stop them from delivering useful products as time goes by. I have a bit more of an issue with how fast e.g. Sony products get phased out (leading to service issues), and replaced by newer versions. Lot's of built in obsolescence in those products.
Cheers,
Bart
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Funny you should mention saying something about this five years ago.
Real artists ship.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2773376832/canon120mpsensor
Where can I buy it?
I was an invited guest to the Canon Technology Showcase in NYC at the Javits when the 120MP chip was shown 5 years ago.
That's why this week's announcement looks like FUD. Either ship it already, or shut up till it's ready.
Michael
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Comparisons between real-world images taken with Sony versus Canon sensors show big differences in the shadows in noise, not just banding.
We will have a major report on this topic some time next week.
Michael
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I was an invited guest to the Canon Technology Showcase in NYC at the Javits when the 120MP chip was shown 5 years ago.
That's why this week's announcement looks like FUD. Either ship it already, or shut up till it's ready.
Michael
@ dpreview forums there was a note that Canon showed R&D 50mp prototype in 2007... we have 50mp production camera in 2015... 120mp prototype was shown in 2010.... http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3900212
why so much emotions ?
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Correct Ron, Canon is not responding, they're sticking to their planning. The speed may seem glacial at times, but it's hard to stop them from delivering useful products as time goes by. I have a bit more of an issue with how fast e.g. Sony products get phased out (leading to service issues), and replaced by newer versions. Lot's of built in obsolescence in those products.
Cheers,
Bart
Yes, Bart, that's what large corporations do. Kodak stuck with their planning and product managers as well. So did IBM before being forced to sell off large chunks of their company and product lines and tens of thousands of employees.
The problem is more about the pace of innovation and the changing marketplace. Computer tech, which is what drives our digital cameras, advances in 1-2 year cycles.
Canon competitors like Fuji seem to continually rev their firmware offering new or improved features to the delight of their customers. In the meantime I have to load open source firmware to get features for my older Canon's that they should have provided such as:
- auto ETTR
- intervalometer
- better bracketing features
- custom AF patterns
- better auto focus adjustments
- etc.
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Heck, I don't know - is there a big SpyCon or industrial imaging conference coming up soon? The 120 and 250 MP sensors would seem to be best suited for governmental / industrial uses - not consumer or imaging pro uses.
Canon is slow on the sort of sensors some photographers want - but you have to hand it to their lens division, which has been coming up with outstanding zooms in the last few years.
I am still in the land of 20-ish MP. More MP might be nice, but I must admit that I think that shooting hand held under normal conditions would be dicey with a 120 MP camera. More processing of more pixels to remove motion artifact? More dynamic resolution, combined with a simple lossless compression algorithm - that would be nice.
So, is the new Sony A7Rii the medium format killer?
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So, is the new Sony A7Rii the medium format killer?
Are you Pandora and is that a box you're opening?
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The 120 and 250 MP sensors would seem to be best suited for governmental / industrial uses - not consumer or imaging pro uses.
plz refer to 640Kb "quote" attributed popularly to Bill Gates
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They already have a functioning 250 Mpx sensor, so it shouldn't take too long to bring it to consumer market: http://www.canon.com/news/2015/sep07e.html
And I think they will still beat Sony in the race for number 1... Wasn't Sony that said 5 years ago that their target was to be number 1?
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Hi Michael,
No, I do not see how this would instill Fear into anybody, and Uncertainty and Doubt (some people with low self-esteem get scared very easily) are better treated by professionals in the medical field.
I just view the announcements as progress feedback, and they are not the first reports about their many research projects. Do remember that Canon is a leading company in the field of patent applications and grants, anually ranking in the very top (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/apat.htm#PartB) (at #3 amongst the IBMs and Samsungs of this world), for more than a decade (or two). Some people occasionally need to be reminded of that feat, and understand that Canon sets its own pace based on a very long planning horizon (typical of many Japanese companies).
Cheers,
Bart
Could not agree more. FUD will need to be directed to other company products. By example: you never know if RED will exist in 6 moths with all the crisis in China, Canon is a solid multigenerational company. Something along those lines.
The always announcing something better is the strategy that Adobe employees against Aperture, and the bloggers were always comparing the beta version of Lightroom vs the current, production version of Aperture. I will give canon a pass, even in this sense, since they are not targeting anybody, and do not have the kind of reviewer control that adobe has.
They are trying to access that they still investing in sensors. They need it.
Best regards,
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Could not agree more. FUD will need to be directed to other company products. By example: you never know if RED will exist in 6 moths with all the crisis in China, Canon is a solid multigenerational company. Something along those lines.
The always announcing something better is the strategy that Adobe employees against Aperture, and the bloggers were always comparing the beta version of Lightroom vs the current, production version of Aperture. I will give canon a pass, even in this sense, since they are not targeting anybody, and do not have the kind of reviewer control that adobe has.
They are trying to access that they still investing in sensors. They need it.
Best regards,
reminds FUD from DNG proponents about the inevitable end of the world with proprietary raws :D :D :D ...
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Some people appear to be missing the point, and interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.
Companies employ FUD when they are trying to hold on to their existing customer base, not their competitors.
"We've got something better coming soon..." is employed as FUD when you are afraid that you will lose some of your customer base to a competitor's ostensibly superior product. If a FUD campaign is successful it prevents otherwise loyal customers from abandoning ship. At least until you can actually ship a competitive product.
Michael
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Some people appear to be missing the point, and interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.
Companies employ FUD when they are trying to hold on to their existing customer base, not their competitors.
"We've got something better coming soon..." is employed as FUD when you are afraid that you will lose some of your customer base to a competitor's ostensibly superior product. If a FUD campaign is successful it prevents otherwise loyal customers from abandoning ship. At least until you can actually ship a competitive product.
Michael
unlike FUD with DNG, Canon showed 50mp sensor R&D prototype and delivered the 50mp camera (as in you can actually buy it today) - so we know that they deliver... with proprietary raws "scare" we are yet to see anything :D
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Some people appear to be missing the point, and interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.
Companies employ FUD when they are trying to hold on to their existing customer base, not their competitors.
Hi Michael,
Disclosing new products that are not ready for market yet, is not what is generally understood as FUD.
Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) is a tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations,[1][2] politics and propaganda.
FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information. An individual firm, for example, might use FUD to invite unfavorable opinions and speculation about a competitor's product; to increase the general estimation of switching costs among current customers; or to maintain leverage over a current business partner who could potentially become a rival.
The term originated to describe disinformation tactics in the computer hardware industry[dubious – discuss] but has since been used more broadly.[3] FUD is a manifestation of the appeal to fear.
So basically, FUD is a disinformation tactic. Canon is merely informing, not spreading disinformation.
Cheers,
Bart
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unlike FUD with DNG, Canon showed 50mp sensor R&D prototype and delivered the 50mp camera (as in you can actually buy it today) - so we know that they deliver... with proprietary raws "scare" we are yet to see anything :D
Where is their 50MP APS-H sensor camera?
The fact that, 8 years after announcing a 50MP APS-H prototype they finally ship a FF 50MP dSLR seems to be coincidence more than anything else.
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So basically, FUD is a disinformation tactic. Canon is merely informing, not spreading disinformation.
so true...
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Where is their 50MP APS-H sensor camera?
they made a better one - 50mp FF camera...
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The FUD part is telling your dissatisfied users that a product of your own will be coming, and that to swap suppliers will cost them the churn fee, uselessly.
Of course every supplier wants buyers to stay faithful and captive; some suppliers just get products out fast, others attempt to string along their users by FUD.
In anything related to semiconductors, component prices fall by 40% per year or so; so it is very useful to set a competitive pricepoint early by a preannouncement (when prices are high) and deliver later (when costs are low). This is also responsible for a lot of computer preannouncements.
I don't know whether Canon are playing FUD as part of a premeditated strategy; my feeling is that they wanted to hang on to their obsolescing IC fabs for too long, and also segment the market between video and stills, and it's costing them, so now they are resorting to FUD as an act of despair.
Edmund
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The FUD part is telling your dissatisfied users that a product of your own will be coming, and that to swap suppliers will cost them the churn fee, uselessly.
this is some FUD about what FUD is ;)
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I'd say this is classic FUD in as much as it's surely a response to Sony's A7r2. The point of FUD, as Michael notes, is to minimize user defection. It doesn't mean Canon is rushing product development in response to the Sony, merely that it sees a need to interrupt the current Sony-centric media narrative. FUD is a marketing game, one played by most if not all shrewd players at one point or another.
-Dave-
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I can only assume Canon didn't fully realise what Sony was up to and capable of. Companies at that level of success are often at fault for not engaging with the customers needs and wants. They can and do lose touch of reality thinking they can stall developments until there is enough competition to do something. I was a long term customer with Canon but they refused to offer anything worthy of upgrading for several iterations and I was tired of everything having issues with their gear, some of it not working, or the lenses being soft, so I jumped ship and have not looked back.
I'm not a Sony shooter but thank heavens for them who have shaken things up nicely and have kept the pace and momentum going, something I think Canon are surprised by. It will have a knock on effect and I'm sure we're going to see things moving in medium format too.
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I'd say this is classic FUD in as much as it's surely a response to Sony's A7r2. The point of FUD, as Michael notes, is to minimize user defection. It doesn't mean Canon is rushing product development in response to the Sony, merely that it sees a need to interrupt the current Sony-centric media narrative. FUD is a marketing game, one played by most if not all shrewd players at one point or another.
-Dave-
True, but the difference is, that may have worked back in the 80's when there was no internet for people to move ideas around. People are savvy and they see right through this garbage now.
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The point of FUD, as Michael notes, is to minimize user defection.
"FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information."
so where Canon says anything negative, dubious or false ? Michael used the wrong word (proprietary formats will lead to disaster, etc... right ? that was/is classic FUD) and now he (and you) just trying to invent a new definition of what FUD is... certainly there is a marketing intent behind Canon's PR... but it is not FUD as it is classically defined - no negative, dubious or false there...
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Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".
Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael
Hmm...I would rather they indicate they would deliver 24MP and 50MP sensors with better SNR characteristics. Realistically, what is the market for a 120MP 135 sized sensor unless there is a spectacular introduction of new technology.
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I can only assume Canon didn't fully realise what Sony was up to and capable of.
The latest Sony sensor is a good device, but not that much better than the D810 except it is BSI; however the *camera* it is in, with the addition of on-sensor AF for Canon lenses, a stabiliser, fullframe internal 4K video, is a nasty one-stop shopping competitor to every single product which Canon markets in the prosumer space. An incredible general purpose bag-filler. And things will get worse for Canon as Sony ratchets up the bandwidth of the stacked interface circuitry.allowing them to get incredible hirez frame rates.
What has happened to Canon is that Sony doesn't have an existing range of stabilised lenses they want to keep in play, or any overpriced video products, so they are free to innovate. Canon couldn't introduce in-body stabilisation, and doesn't want to let their SLRs do movies anymore, to protect their video range.
Edmund
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Jesus Tapdancing Christ, so much discussions about the semantics of FUD. Here, let me break it down for you.
F - Instilling fear in the minds of existing Canon customers that if they jump ship, they wont be able to enjoy that sweet 120MP DSLR eventually
U - Making existing customers and on the fence potential customers (And even some customers of rivals) feel uncertain if Sony can create something similar
D - Until a product is shipped, this remains vaporware. Hence, deceiving people that something is DEFINITELY coming, when there is no guarantee for it other than Canon's word.
As someone who has worked for many years in marketing, I can assure you. If Canon wanted to do some guerrilla marketing, they would have sent this info as a CR3 rumor or whatever to Canon Rumors. Then it will get picked up by all the news syndicate blogs and there will be chatter. Which is exactly what they (And all the other manufacturers) are doing with actual products. The fact that they are going all official with this quite simply means damage control. FUD is a time tested tactic to do that.
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surely reducing readout noise @ low gains is good, but the wording was about DR (and low readout noise is just one component there), so you have a raw example illustrating 11 stops from some Nikon D8** series ?
Here is a paper suggesting that the Canon 20D can (using multiple exposures) record between 9 and 20 stops of DR, depending on the scene. The largest DR is available when the "bright" stuff is a single point-source, the smallest DR when half the scene is covered by the bright stuff:
https://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/glare_removal/glare_removal.pdf
For my own part, under-exposure is a real thing, especially as camera manufacturers continually make it hard to expose their cameras properly, or photographer incompetence, stressed situation, flash misfire,.... When under-exposing a scene, glare may not be limiting the shadow recovery, but noise sure is.
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Some people appear to be missing the point, and interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.
Michael
Well, it is clear that some people on this forum are interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it. ;D
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Here is a paper suggesting that the Canon 20D can (using multiple exposures) record between 9 and 20 stops of DR, depending on the scene. The largest DR is available when the "bright" stuff is a single point-source, the smallest DR when half the scene is covered by the bright stuff:
https://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/glare_removal/glare_removal.pdf
For my own part, under-exposure is a real thing, especially as camera manufacturers continually make it hard to expose their cameras properly, or photographer incompetence, stressed situation, flash misfire,.... When under-exposing a scene, glare may not be limiting the shadow recovery, but noise sure is.
I have been annoyed for quite a while by the exposure systems. The result is that for landscape shooting I simply bracket everything and choose the optimal exposure in Lightroom. For my Nikon D810 I'm currently trying out the highlight weighted metering method. I have set the adjustment to be one stop over the metering and have been bracketing 0EV, +1EV and +2EV to see how this metering would work in practical scenes. What I have found so far is the sometimes the +1EV will clip, but the 0EV seems to never clip. I haven't got enough samples to be sure, but it looks that way to me. If this is consistent then I can basically stop bracketing the D810 and shoot with this mode and be sure not to blow the highlights and only in extreme cases bracket to protect the shadows. So if my continued testing of this method will result in this conclusion then this is great. On my Canon 5DS R I will need to continue bracket as there is no such metering method and the DR is not high enough.
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Back in the day (and I know many here will remember), when IBM was king, if another company started shipping a computer that was faster or in some way better than anything that IBM then had, they would quickly announce a new model that – on promise at least – blew the competition into the weeds.
At that time, the slogan in business and academia was "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".
Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".
Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael
I don't believe this is FUD. I haven't seen such announcement result in being used in final products. It's very different from the situation with IBM in the old days. There is no comparison.
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And I think they will still beat Sony in the race for number 1... Wasn't Sony that said 5 years ago that their target was to be number 1?
In the last 5 years, Sony exploded into the camera world. Just think where we would be without Sony pushing the butts of Canon and Nikon.
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F - Instilling fear in the minds of existing Canon customers that if they jump ship, they wont be able to enjoy that sweet 120MP DSLR eventually
you can always jump back any time... and now if you jump to 36/40mp you are already leaving 50mp... 50mp > 36/40mp... you even don't need to sell Canon optics if you buy 40mp Sony camera... and why'd you jump if you want even more mp which Canon already have ? and also it assures others that Sony will be answering the challenge and even more mp will come from Sony than current 40mp.... so you are just being creative with words like with exposure/metering in your JPG examples in a recent topic about MF vs 35mm...
U - Making existing customers and on the fence potential customers (And even some customers of rivals) feel uncertain if Sony can create something similar
again choice of wording - they are making their own customers feel certain that they will deliver even more mp sensors with then already delivered more mp in production camera and me as a Sony user it makes feel that I am getting even more mp from Sony too ;D
D - Until a product is shipped, this remains vaporware. Hence, deceiving people that something is DEFINITELY coming, when there is no guarantee for it other than Canon's word.
history shows that 50mp made it to the production...
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bottom line, Canon does not disseminating negative and dubious or false information, like in case with DNG vs proprietary formats... they are disseminating marketing information to gains something, but that is not FUD because of the absence of negative and dubious or false information.
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Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael
Based on the proof Matthew and Ron have offered, Canon is offering a continuous stream of FUD.
A 50mm hinted about in 2008, becoming a reality in 2015, is a joke.
A 120 mm hinted about in 2010, never becoming a reality, and morphing into a renewed "promise" in 2015 is a lie.
An announcement is a foreshadowing of something that actually materializes in 6-months to a year (at most).
Based on the proof, Canon is simply spreading lies (or, at best, "verbalized wishes" or pipe-dreams).
Either ship it already, or shut up till it's ready.
Michael
Couldn't agree more.
If you really have the finished product, then announce the shipping date with the revelation.
Otherwise, if it's so far from being a usable reality that you can't forsee its ship date, then (as you say) keep your mouth shut until it is.
Anything else is a cry for help (call it FUD or SOS).
Jack
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In the last 5 years, Sony exploded into the camera world. Just think where we would be without Sony pushing the butts of Canon and Nikon.
We would be more or less where we are today. I think "exploded" is very much exaggerated. I hardly see anybody using Sony A7 cameras when I go to London, Paris, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Lisbon (where I live), or Muscat. What I see is still the prevalence of people/tourists using entry level DSLR (consumer level) and the prevalence of pros using DSLRs.
I don't think that Canon or Nikon have felt the pressure (yet?), especially Canon have been showing their muscle in the last couple of years, releasing top quality lens after top quality lens, completing revamping their f2.8 pro zoom lenses, their TS lenses, some f1.4 primes, new top quality 16-35 f4 and 24-70 f4 zooms, 11-24 f 4 zoom, their 400, 500, and 600 mm lenses, etc. This is just lenses.
As for their DSLRs, they lagged behind in resolution for a while, but are now the top ones again. I know all about the DR, so no need to mention:) I could mention the Sony compressed raw thing:)
Sony all but have abandoned their NEX APSC line, never made it into a system... no new cameras, no new lenses (even Zeiss and Sigma seem to have forgotten that they exist). The FF A7 seems is gaining momentum, but really, sometimes it seems that only serious hobbyists and some fine art pros are using it. But I am all for it, after all, I am using it and have committed to it. Hope it does not go the way of the dodo, as with other Sony "experiences"...
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Funny you should mention saying something about this five years ago.
Real artists ship.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2773376832/canon120mpsensor
Where can I buy it?
If you read the article it says clearly that Canon did not announce any specific plans for it. It was just shown as a technology that could be built. This is not uncommon for companies to do such a proof of concept. Many more are done internally than are even mentioned externally. This is a normal part of developing new technology. But you seem not to know or understand this even though it was clearly stated in the article....
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Based on the proof Matthew and Ron have offered, Canon is offering a continuous stream of FUD.
A 50mm hinted about in 2008, becoming a reality in 2015, is a joke.
A 120 mm hinted about in 2010, never becoming a reality, and morphing into a renewed "promise" in 2015 is a lie.
An announcement is a foreshadowing of something that actually materializes in 6-months to a year (at most).
Based on the proof, Canon is simply spreading lies (or, at best, "verbalized wishes" or pipe-dreams).
Couldn't agree more.
If you really have the finished product, then announce the shipping date with the revelation.
Otherwise, if it's so far from being a usable reality that you can't forsee its ship date, then (as you say) keep your mouth shut until it is.
Anything else is a cry for help (call it FUD or SOS).
Jack
These were not announcements of products to come. They were just proof of concepts. You do not seem to know that companies make lots of such internally. Most them do not end up in specific products in the form they were made.
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Frankly, I'm amazed how poorly people understand basic concepts. Reading/comprehension skills also seem scarce these days.
FUD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) is a known strategy, what Canon does is not FUD, because they are not spreading disinformation. They are just informing the world about their development projects. On the same day they also sent out a press release about another development project, a material appearance image-processing technology (http://www.canon.com/news/2015/sep08e.html) that uses UV-curable printer ink to reproduce surface structure and provide weather resistance.
Otherwise, why not call this Sony presentation (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2279255612/sony-s-curved-sensors-may-allow-for-simpler-lenses-and-better-images) FUD as well (and it would be an equally wrong use of the term FUD). And that's just one example of what many companies do all the time, providing information about their own activities.
No negative and dubious or false information to be found in the press release.
Press releases are usually pretty easy to read because the headline already tells what to expect. They use words like, company "X" is developing / develops / developed, or announces, or reveals, or celebrates, etc. Only product announcements hold something of a promise, and they are usually kept. Other announcements are to inform the public, which also helps to inform investors.
What Michael possibly had in mind, was the technique of "SPIN selling (http://blog.pipelinersales.com/sales-management/sales-methodology/why-questions-matter-in-selling-a-synopsis-of-spin-selling/)", which is a sales technique. He would also be wrong about that, although some of the SPIN principles can be part of a company's communication strategy.
Cheers,
Bart
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Hi,
Could be, could be not. I would say decent lenses ever made are a good match for high resolution sensors. I have right now an A7rII and I really find that all lenses I tested work decently well with it, so I don't think lenses are an issue.
What I see are a lot of artefacts, bad edges and some cases of moiré, even if it quite mild.
Canon could release a high resolution sensor. It would give up some DR at base ISO for sure, but how many of Canon's customers are shooting base ISO anyway.
Canon has revamped a lot of their lenses recently, and they may deliver sensor resolution to match.
I would expect that Canon has a roadmap of it's own.
Now, comparing with computers, IBM, DEC and the PC revolution may be adequate or it may be not. Photographers are often artists and no computer geeks. But I must say, MFD enthusiasts are what reminds me of minicomputer people. In big computing mainframes still exist or persist. But, the minicomputer is very, very dead.
Best regards
Erik
Back in the day (and I know many here will remember), when IBM was king, if another company started shipping a computer that was faster or in some way better than anything that IBM then had, they would quickly announce a new model that – on promise at least – blew the competition into the weeds.
At that time, the slogan in business and academia was "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".
Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".
Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael
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... it's so far from being a usable reality...
When installed in a camera, the newly developed sensor was able to capture images enabling the distinguishing of lettering on the side of an airplane flying at a distance of approximately 18 km from the shooting location.
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So many axes to grind, so little time.
In any event, my understanding of the word FUD is exactly as I used it and as I first described it. Scroll back a few pages. Nothing has changed. (Here is one definition...the one that's at the top of the page when you Google the word..."fear, uncertainty and doubt, usually evoked intentionally in order to put a competitor at a disadvantage".
The Canon announcement of a 120MP camera is designed to sow FOD in my view. No detailed specs, no delivery date and no price. It's a "here is what we're thinking of" type of announcement, and depending on timing can either be innocent or FUD. I see it as FUD.
Sony's announcement today of the A7s II is a straightforward product announcement; detailed specs, price and delivery date (this month).
I don't know why this difference eludes some.
Michael
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I don't know why this difference eludes some.
example of the real FUD - every new camera has new raw format... this is false information, clearly known to the writer that it is false, hence a genuine FUD
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Why am I not surprised that you are flogging this horse once again.
OK, your point is made. You are totally off base, but I will not respond further because it simply would be feeding a troll.
This is your one and only notice that you're out of bounds due to unnecessary repetition of an inappropriate accusation.
My patience does have limits. You have just hit that limit.
Michael
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But, the minicomputer is very, very dead.
how do you define a minicomputer then ?
what is this = http://www.supermicro.com/products/nfo/gpu.cfm , standalone box with up to 4 Tesla GPU accelerator cards and 1TeraByte Ram ? PC ? mainframe ?
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Fud, who cares! 1.8 billion images are posted online each day.
LuLa, maybe ten plus photos posted each day.
Cheers,
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We would be more or less where we are today. I think "exploded" is very much exaggerated. I hardly see anybody using Sony A7 cameras when I go to London, Paris, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Lisbon (where I live), or Muscat. What I see is still the prevalence of people/tourists using entry level DSLR (consumer level) and the prevalence of pros using DSLRs.
I don't think that Canon or Nikon have felt the pressure (yet?), especially Canon have been showing their muscle in the last couple of years, releasing top quality lens after top quality lens, completing revamping their f2.8 pro zoom lenses, their TS lenses, some f1.4 primes, new top quality 16-35 f4 and 24-70 f4 zooms, 11-24 f 4 zoom, their 400, 500, and 600 mm lenses, etc. This is just lenses.
As for their DSLRs, they lagged behind in resolution for a while, but are now the top ones again. I know all about the DR, so no need to mention:) I could mention the Sony compressed raw thing:)
Sony all but have abandoned their NEX APSC line, never made it into a system... no new cameras, no new lenses (even Zeiss and Sigma seem to have forgotten that they exist). The FF A7 seems is gaining momentum, but really, sometimes it seems that only serious hobbyists and some fine art pros are using it. But I am all for it, after all, I am using it and have committed to it. Hope it does not go the way of the dodo, as with other Sony "experiences"...
Interchangeable lens mirrorless cameras went from 0% market share to roughly 25% market share in the total interchangeable lens camera market. Most of these mirrorless cameras are Sony. I bet Canon has taken notice as their revenue and profits from their camera division have been sliding in that same time period.
5 years ago it was Sony who...today you see discussions about Sony cameras on every board.
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These were not announcements of products to come.
Clearly, which again is the whole point.
They were just proof of concepts.
If there is more than one concept, then proofs of concepts is grammatically-correct.
You do not seem to know that companies make lots of such internally.
You do not seem to know that this isn't an "internal memo" within the company that we're discussing, but in fact a public announcement ...
Most them do not end up in specific products in the form they were made.
Which brings us right back to the point, yet again, does it not?
I was in agreement with the O/P: keep it internal ... if it's just nothing but a "concept" ... and only make public announcements for products/innovations, that are actually going to benefit the public.
If you want to believe that these "public announcements" were just casual releases, fine.
But I agree with the O/P that these announcements are nothing but "Hey, we're still relevant" SOS cries ... full of hot air.
And I say that as a Canon shooter, who simply cannot get excited enough to hit the "buy" button for any of their latest cameras.
I love Canon's new lenses ... but, but despite all their wonderful knick-knacks, their latest cameras just do not inspire with lagging sensor technology.
They're already dropping their prices everywhere, not even a year old yet.
IMO, "giving hope for the future" is exactly what these town-crying announcements are trying to do.
But feel free to believe differently.
Jack
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...
Wouldn't you say this factoid has nothing to do with image-making for most photographic applications?
If some mega-sensor has certain crime, or surveillance, applications ... great.
But it's not really a qualitative step forward, for the benefit of photographers, just a freak feat.
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I can only assume Canon didn't fully realise what Sony was up to and capable of. Companies at that level of success are often at fault for not engaging with the customers needs and wants. They can and do lose touch of reality thinking they can stall developments until there is enough competition to do something. I was a long term customer with Canon but they refused to offer anything worthy of upgrading for several iterations and I was tired of everything having issues with their gear, some of it not working, or the lenses being soft, so I jumped ship and have not looked back.
I'm not a Sony shooter but thank heavens for them who have shaken things up nicely and have kept the pace and momentum going, something I think Canon are surprised by. It will have a knock on effect and I'm sure we're going to see things moving in medium format too.
I agree with this.
The 7D II would have been a home-run hit ... with a Sony Sensor and 4K video ... but with an already-outdated sensor and yesterday's news "standard HD" video, why bother "upgrading" to a new camera that is already obsolete in its core elements?
The 5Ds may be nicer than the 5D III, but with already-lacking DR, and (again) standard HD video, with its only redeeming feature being "50 mpx," it will be so-quickly-obsolete that it's not worth the upgrade either IMO.
By contrast, the Nikon D810 may not be perfect, but it was a truly significant upgrade that lasted as a front-runner for a pretty good stretch of time.
"Bigger" and Better is exciting news;
Bigger and "not quite as good" is, um, not very exciting.
JMO
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So many axes to grind, so little time.
In any event, my understanding of the word FUD is exactly as I used it and as I first described it. Scroll back a few pages. Nothing has changed. (Here is one definition...the one that's at the top of the page when you Google the word..."fear, uncertainty and doubt, usually evoked intentionally in order to put a competitor at a disadvantage".
The Canon announcement of a 120MP camera is designed to sow FOD in my view. No detailed specs, no delivery date and no price. It's a "here is what we're thinking of" type of announcement, and depending on timing can either be innocent or FUD. I see it as FUD.
Sony's announcement today of the A7s II is a straightforward product announcement; detailed specs, price and delivery date (this month).
I don't know why this difference eludes some.
Michael
Michael,
Yes, the Canon announcement is a classic FUD preannouncement tactic. As Synn elaborates very aptly, it is an attempt at damage control.
However it is an inept attempt at best because the Sony is lens-compatible with the Canon to a degree, so the user believes his defection fine is limited to the body cost minus resale — "Aww, I'll just buy me this old A7IIR, put my old lenses on it, and if Canon they come out with a real good sensor, well I can just sell the A7 and switch back in a couple of years ..."
Canon would have one blunt and effective defensive tactic: Slash all body -still and video- prices by 30% and eat the loss while they up their tech.
This would be a good opportunity for the fake Chuck Westfall (https://fakechuckwestfall.wordpress.com) to strut his stuff. Alas, he has retired.
Edmund
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First, just a quibble: "vaporware" is the term for announcing products that are in fact far from fully developed, in order to persuade customers to wait for them rather buying an actual product from a competitor. It was coined when IBM did this. Rival CDC had announced a new super-computer well ahead of any IBM product, and IBM responded by deceptively touting a coming product to match it ... which was never delivered. The last part is also important to being "vaporware" as opposed to "advanced notice", which I as a customer actually like. Or are "product roadmaps" now evil vaporware?
Canon's announcements might be in this category, but they are only announcimg development plans, not claiming to have products developed and coming soon (as IBM did).
P. S. That 120MP 30x20mm _sensor_ does exist ... The fact that it is not in any Canon DSLR is hardly surprising, as it is rather clearly intended for special purpose tools like aerial mapping photography, surveillance and such.
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There seems to be a new prototype SLR (http://www.engadget.com/gallery/canon-120m-camera-system/#slide=3617308) on show.
Edmund
First, just a quibble: "vaporware" is the term for announcing products that are in fact far from fully developed, in order to persuade customers to wait for them rather buying an actual product from a competitor. It was coined when IBM did this. Rival CDC had announced a new super-computer well ahead of any IBM product, and IBM responded by deceptively touting a coming product to match it ... which was never delivered. The last part is also important to being "vaporware" as opposed to "advanced notice", which I as a customer actually like. Or are "product roadmaps" now evil vaporware?
Canon's announcements might be in this category, but they are only announcimg development plans, not claiming to have products developed and coming soon (as IBM did).
P. S. That 120MP 30x20mm _sensor_ does exist ... The fact that it is not in any Canon DSLR is hardly surprising, as it is rather clearly intended for special purpose tools like aerial mapping photography, surveillance and such.
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First, just a quibble: "vaporware" is the term for announcing products that are in fact far from fully developed, in order to persuade customers to wait for them rather buying an actual product from a competitor. It was coined when IBM did this. Rival CDC had announced a new super-computer well ahead of any IBM product, and IBM responded by deceptively touting a coming product to match it ... which was never delivered. The last part is also important to being "vaporware" as opposed to "advanced notice", which I as a customer actually like. Or are "product roadmaps" now evil vaporware?
Canon's announcements might be in this category, but they are only announcimg development plans, not claiming to have products developed and coming soon (as IBM did).
P. S. That 120MP 30x20mm _sensor_ does exist ... The fact that it is not in any Canon DSLR is hardly surprising, as it is rather clearly intended for special purpose tools like aerial mapping photography, surveillance and such.
Doesn't vapourware apply to a real product with published specs, sometimes benchmark results, a tentative price and a production plan but with a very long time btwn annoucement and actual availability?
The Leica S 007 was vapourware for one year until a few weeks ago for instance.
Vapourware is IMHO way too kind for the Canon annoucement. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Doesn't vapourware apply to a real product with published specs, sometimes benchmark results, a tentative price and a production plan but with a very long time btwn annoucement and actual availability?
Not really, that's more about a non existing product, it's vapor. It gets even worse if it is announced as a finished product, to be launched at date 'x', and still never materializes. It remains vapor.
Vaporware. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware)
In the computer industry, vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled.
Vaporware is often announced months or years before its purported release, with development details lacking. Developers have been accused of intentionally promoting vaporware to keep customers from switching to competing products that offer more features.
The Leica S 007 was vapourware for one year until a few weeks ago for instance.
No, it was a tangible product, which was announced, that just took longer to be ready for market.
Vapourware is IMHO way too kind for the Canon annoucement. ;)
No, it's just the wrong term for it. It's a development report, but not an announcement.
Cheers,
Bart
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Is this the Locomotive Acts thread... ;)
(http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/A/A001/A001089.jpg)
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I agree with the view expressed by Bart and others, that this is not really FUD, but a development report. Remember that the audience is not just photographers. Canon is a company listed in the stock exchange (NSYE:CAJ) and as such it is important to communicate to your investors what is going on.
Would you invest in a company that only talks about the products that are readily available in stores and everything else is just internal memos? I would not, I want to know what they are working on, what is to expect in the future.
IMHO, FUD is when companies spread rumours about the issues you are going to face if you change for the competition, such as bad quality, lack of support, etc.
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Doesn't vapourware apply to a real product with published specs, sometimes benchmark results, a tentative price and a production plan but with a very long time btwn annoucement and actual availability?
That is the new meaning coined by the impatient and cynical for a mere long lag between announcement and delivery. The original "IBM vs CDC" meaning, as I said, was making a concrete announcement of product coming soon, but _never_ delivering, or not even having the product in development yet when the announcement is made.
Vapourware is IMHO way too kind for the Canon annoucement. ;)
Frankly, that is quite a bizarre accusation (piling on against Canon seem to be in fashion -- perhaps payback for the arrogance of _some_ Canon partisans back in the day when it did have the best sensors?) Canon has merely made a vague but for all we know completely factual statement about products being in the early stages of development: how is that worse than (or even as bad as) a company falsely claiming to have a product coming soon when it does not?
Even the Leica S "007" was merely delayed, and was indeed fairly well along in development when it was first announced; neither vaporware nor FUD in my book.
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Canon has merely made a vague but for all we know completely factual statement about products being in the early stages of development:
I think you're bending over backwards to be as kind as possible.
If Canon are vague it's because they are being so deliberately and that raises the question of why.
I agree with the view that this is all rather desperate and in response to the seemingly never ending product announcements from Sony.
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If Canon are vague it's because they are being so deliberately and that raises the question of why.
Please explain what is wrong with a company making vague statements about long-term product plans -- let alone why it is as bad as or worse than the dishonesty and deception of true FUD or vaporware. If the information is of no use or interest to you, why not just move on? It is almost as if some people prefer to be kept in the dark about a company's future products and plans. I've never owned a Canon digital camera and have no interest in buying any of its current offerings or any of these possible future products, but this hostility and cynicism puzzles me.
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Please explain what is wrong with a company making vague statements about long-term product plans -- let alone why it is as bad as or worse than the dishonesty and deception of true FUD or vaporware. If the information is of no use or interest to you, why not just move on? It is almost as if some people prefer to be kept in the dark about a company's future products and plans. I've never owned a Canon digital camera and have no interest in buying any of its current offerings or any of these possible future products, but this hostility and cynicism puzzles me.
Why not move on? I was under the impression that I was commenting on a subject on an open forum. Is it only ok to post if you think Canon are wonderful for making this announcement?
I'll try and answer your more sensible comments and of course this is all just my VHO and YMMV, in fact I think it does :D
I think that Canon are just trying to grab some airtime and maybe even retain people thinking of jumping to... Nikon? Sony? No doubt they're not alone in issuing rather vague press releases but that doesn't make it any more palatable to me. To me this looks like a rather desperate attempt to grab some air and board talk time at a time when other companies are releasing products which might tempt some Canon customers away.
I may be wrong. Who knows... it's juts my opinion. Do I expect to see this high mp count sensor in a camera any time soon. No.
This isn't hostility, just cynicism and maybe a little pity for the poor souls in Canon marketing who seem to be scrambling around for something to shout about.
Sorry if you think me saying that is taking up bandwidth.
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Would you invest in a company that only talks about the products that are readily available in stores and everything else is just internal memos? I would not, I want to know what they are working on, what is to expect in the future.
Like Apple?
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Like Apple?
Looking at the impact that iTunes had on the profitability and revenue (and thus funds for R&D), it would indeed be nice for an investor to know ahead of time what they are working on (if anything 'next generation'), other than a rehashed iPad or iPhone at product launch.
Cheers,
Bart
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Why not move on? I was under the impression that I was commenting on a subject on an open forum. Is it only ok to post if you think Canon are wonderful for making this announcement?
Sorry for a misunderstanding: of course it is fine to comment on an objectionable or misleading announcement from a company. What I was referring to was finding anything objectionable in the first place, given that this is just a company giving a little bit of information about its longer-term plans. In fact, I agree with the earlier comment that it would instead be objectionable for a publicly-held company to keep such information secret!
So I am glad that you try to explain why you find Canon's statement objectionable:
I think that Canon are just trying to grab some airtime and maybe even retain people thinking of jumping to... Nikon? Sony?
So, you think it is nothing but a desperate attempt to protect its (market-share and profit-share leading) DSLR sales from Sony and Nikon, by the allegedly evil strategy of giving some early and therefore not detailed information about its product development directions.
Maybe that is part of it, but I am not particularly convinced. By the way, here are the key statements, complete with footnote disclaimer:
Canon Inc., is developing a Cinema EOS System 8K camera* and professional-use 8K reference display* that will support the production of next-generation 8K video content, along with a still-image single-lens reflex camera equipped with a CMOS sensor featuring approximately 120 million effective pixels.*
* These products are currently under development and are not available for sale or use in the U.S. Specifications may change and no assurances can be given that it will be made available for sale or use in the U.S.
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom/press_releases?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e0248100ec2f
By the way, this was one of many press releases related to a big Canon media event: https://expo.usa.canon.com
In particular, the part about 8K video has nothing to do with DSLRs or with competing against Nikon. It is simply a response to the fact that the Japanese broadcast television industry is moving towards 8K, with a goal to be there by 2020, so the professional video products divisions at Canon, Panasonic and Sony are surely all working on this.
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So, you think it is nothing but a desperate attempt to protect its (market-share and profit-share leading) DSLR sales from Sony and Nikon, by the allegedly evil strategy of giving some early and therefore not detailed information about its product development directions.
Leaving the "evil" part aside, that's at least how I feel about it. I don't see anything evil about the plan though, it is one possible marketing strategy among others.
But the fact that they have been the only camera company feeling like it may be a winning strategy for them to issue such an announcement very much conveys the impression that they think they don't have the real products it takes to win against their current - and probably soon to be announced - competition.
Cheers,
Bernard
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FUD is not intended to DIRECTLY hurt a competitor, but is targeted at a companies own users and/or unaffiliated users and is intended to forstall purchasing decisions of a competitors products that are currently available.
Every company does it and it can be either passive or active. That is, they can spread uncertainty and doubt by not providing any information or they can do so by providing misleading information.
Nikon (I've been shooting Nikon since the N90s) has a classic example in the D400. There has been speculation since the D300s in 2007 about a D400. Nikon has never denied that their would be an updated professional level DX camera even though they have failed to deliver one. The intent is to forestall current Nikon shooters from switching in hopes there will be something in the future whether they intend to deliver something or not.
Note that this is different than withholding specific feature or release dates in an effort not to hurt current sales or cause significant channel disruption.
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Of course it is FUD. Other historical examples of FUD:
- 1961 President Kennedy's promise to put a man on the Moon "before the end of the decade."
Imagine the nerve to promise something so far into the future, without the specific delivery date. He should have left it instead to the next president to announce it eight years later that the rocket to take men to the Moon shall be launched within weeks. That would be a proper product announcement.
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Of course it is FUD. Other historical examples of FUD:
- 1961 President Kennedy's promise to put a man on the Moon "before the end of the decade."
Imagine the nerve to promise something so far into the future, without the specific delivery date. He should have left it instead to the next president to announce it eight years later that the rocket to take men to the Moon shall be launched within weeks. That would be a proper product announcement.
That's a good point, but somewhat irrelevant because the 'filming' wasn't done in the Mojave at all. The truth of the matter is that it was shot in Lanzarote. They picked that dusty, black isle because at the time, very few tourists went there, and even if they had, you can do almost anything you like within the shelter of a small volcano.
I believe that César Manrique had offered his Playboy Pad for the operation, but it was rejected because of the danger of wandering Bunnies trying to get onto the set in hope of getting 'noticed' later on in Hollywood (where, incidentally, the final cut was put together) and, consequently, giving the show away.
Not a lot of people knows that.
Rob C
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Of course it is FUD. Other historical examples of FUD:
- 1961 President Kennedy's promise to put a man on the Moon "before the end of the decade."
Imagine the nerve to promise something so far into the future, without the specific delivery date. He should have left it instead to the next president to announce it eight years later that the rocket to take men to the Moon shall be launched within weeks. That would be a proper product announcement.
False equivalency is truly the backbone of the internet.
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Time to prove it's false, synn.
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Interchangeable lens mirrorless cameras went from 0% market share to roughly 25% market share in the total interchangeable lens camera market. Most of these mirrorless cameras are Sony. I bet Canon has taken notice as their revenue and profits from their camera division have been sliding in that same time period.
5 years ago it was Sony who...today you see discussions about Sony cameras on every board.
Good for them, and for me, since I use Sony. But nothing of what you say contradicts my observations... and at least some of the discussion around Sony revolves around lack of lenses, lack of support, quick product replacement, not all good stuff. Just ask Sony APSC MILC users...
One year from now, the A7RII will probably be replaced, which will leave some people unhappy about their USD4000 wonder-camera...
On the other hand, some people actually prefer Canon and their more conservative approach regarding camera replacement cycles. Inspires some confidence that their system is not going the way of the dodo.
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Good for them, and for me, since I use Sony. But nothing of what you say contradicts my observations... and at least some of the discussion around Sony revolves around lack of lenses, lack of support, quick product replacement, not all good stuff. Just ask Sony APSC MILC users...
One year from now, the A7RII will probably be replaced, which will leave some people unhappy about their USD4000 wonder-camera...
On the other hand, some people actually prefer Canon and their more conservative approach regarding camera replacement cycles. Inspires some confidence that their system is not going the way of the dodo.
I think that's a very important point, and I also wonder if the camera makers are not also very aware of the danger of too rapid a change in products.
You can't hope to keep selling stuff if it doesn't last longer than a season; you might as well just be a farmer. Or a shop. All you'd need to invest in R'n'D would be another big fridge.
That was one of the reasons why Hasselblad, Rollei etc. did so well during the film era: any product changes were very minor, and there was no great advantage to change, and better yet, the equipment lasted, and the only disaster would have lain in the death of a film format.
But then, photography probably meant something quite different in those days. Mass appeal seldom means improvement in end result, i.e. actual photographs, just more gadgets with which to play.
Rob C
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I think that it's necessary to recognize that the camera industry is now the consumer electronics industry. One of the reasons why CE companies like Sony (Fuji and Panasonic as well) have pushed into mirrorless is that it removes a huge amount of the expensive mechanical mechanisms in a camera, such as the mirror assembly, and prism alignment, not to mention the AF module, alignment etc.
This allows highly-featured cameras to be made for less, and often to be sold for the same price as their more mechanical cousins, thus producing higher profit margins.
When the bulk of the cost of a new model is silicon and programming, change happens faster.
Whether this is "a good thing" depends on one's perspective.
I can resists upgrading my iPhone and iPad to every second generation, and my TV and stereo to every third or fourth generation. But my camera....humm... not so infrequently. If a new model really ups the game and has the potential to improve my imaging, as the A7RII, most definitely does, then I give in to temptation. Others may have more self-control and differing needs.
Michael
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On the other hand, some people actually prefer Canon and their more conservative approach regarding camera replacement cycles. Inspires some confidence that their system is not going the way of the dodo.
first of all - they simply have no choice, then one other system with conservative approach was the old 43 dSLR from Olympus (top tier line of E-bodies)... was slower than Canon and gone... the slow cycle is not a sign of anything by itself
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Wow. Bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch.
I haven't seem so much whining and complaining about a company working to develop different technology. For the Sony lovers, it's "oh, they don't have the DR." For the Canon critics, it's "oh, well they announced 50MP in 2007. Or was it 2008? Maybe it was 1946?"
The fact that Canon has working models of cameras with a 250MP sensor, and another than has a sensor that goes to 4,000,000 ISO simply means they aren't asleep at the wheel. They are pushing technology in areas no one else has (hello? Sony? Nikon... oh that's right. They don't actually produce their sensors), or at least has mentioned. People seem to forget that part of R&D is to produce things that may not see the light of day as a consumer item, but often paves the way for other technology that is used. I think in the recent past Canon has been cautious -- both with development and announcements of what they're working on. Now that they have awoken from their somnambulant existence, you would think people would be glad that a major technology company is striving to develop new technology.
Since we're taking steps back in time, I remember when people thought a 6MP sensor was the pinnacle of 35mm based DSLRs, and that it was equal to 35mm film. I also seem to remember people saying, "Oh, we'll never use the capacity of a 1TB drive. We really don't need it." There was a time when 40MB drives seemed huge.
For those who wish to grouse about technological advancement, I have a bag phone I'd really love to sell you.
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I think that Canon has been doing some fine things in lenses. Canon camera ergonomics are pleasing, the live view is very functional (I remember a lot of bitching from Nikon users who didn't like the Nikon LV implementation). The new AF algorithms work well, the STM lens line is cheap and is a boon for the non-professional video shooter who doesn't pull focus manually, the night sports photographers love the anti-flicker mode that enables good exposure under outdoor-type flood lights. Canon has a good system with strengths and weaknesses.
I am not sure that Canon is aiming the super-high-MP cameras at most hobby, editorial, or commercial photographers. 120 MP or 250 MP seems like a better fit for a high-end commercial, technical, or surveillance subject, not one that is fated to appear at 72 ppi on someone's computer screen.
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I don't think this about not liking progress really.
That more resolution helps is obvious. Who wouldn't want more pixels if there is no drawback? Whether that helps in measurable ways for 99.9% of applications is of course a different story. For me 120 megapixels is becoming interesting since it is getting closer to the resolutions stitchers have been used to for years for very large prints.
But it is also obvious that any sensor maker can manufacture today a 120 mp sensor if there are no constraints for it to perform well along other metrics, such as, yes signal to noise ratio that translates into DR. This is especially true for sensor manufacturers already using for years processes with finer lithogaphy, which appears to be pretty much everyone but Canon (think Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, Aptina,...).
So such a partial announcement (only resolution given as sensor spec) tells us basically zero from a technological progress standpoint. It in fact conveys the very opposite message about the non reality of actual product availability, which ends up speaking more about the lack of reality of the supposed advances than the silence of others.
In essence, picking resolution as the measure of upcoming future photographic progress this way sounds like marketing at its worse. It doesn't speak to the engineer in me, and even less to the photographer.
This is what the mockery is about IMHO.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I can hardly believe what I'm reading here.
Canon don't replace their cameras as fast as the competition and this is a good thing?
From a used kit value point of view maybe but in terms of offering cutting edge kit it can't be.
Imagine Ford still making the Model T. Sure, next to the latest Toyota it's a musium piece and it can't do what the Toyota does but so what, it gets me from A to B and I'll get back what I paid for it all those years ago.
That's a valid view, I suppose, but if I want the abilities of the Toyota I'm willing to pay for them.
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I think Bernard is correct; anyone could produce a 120MP sensor, particularly if DR, cost, etc. were not an issue.
Canon is doing the only thing it can do, since Sony obviously has their magic almost-no-read-noise exmor technology on patent lockdown. Canon must know what they need to do to gain DR, but not in a way that would not run afoul of patent law.
So it is a somewhat inelegant attempt to remain relevant, in terms of pure sensor tech--throw out some huge MP numbers in the hope that they slow the rate of defection. That's all this is--a more extreme version of the 5Ds/5DsR.
I think Canon is doing all they can do--obviously sensor tech like Sony can be produced by very few (Samsung might be almost in their league?) And Canon's lenses, lately, have been superb. Obviously, if they could produce a DR monster like the exmor, they would do so ASAP. It's wrong to blame them, I think. They're in a bad spot.
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So far as I am concerned, the lenses Canon are producing, with the improved technology (DO and the new blue-refractive material) are a strong incentive to consider the system. And yes, you can use the lenses on Sony cameras, if you need the Sony sensor more than the more integrated user experience on the OEM (Canon) camera. But do I really want to process 200 MB images all the time? I am fine with the 6D for now, and might consider a higher MP, higher dynamic range camera in the near future.
I am trying to avoid too much G.A.S. ::) Fat lot of luck, with the TS-E 24 II and a faster supertelephoto lens (500 or 600 f/4 DO?) plus set of teleconverters v. III on my wish list.
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Bernard, I'd be careful about making such broad, sweeping statements such as "... it is also obvious that any sensor maker can manufacture today a 120 mp sensor..". The fact is, they can't. Because if they could, if they could even approach that ability, Samsung, Sony or whomever would let everyone know they could do it, even if it was just a prototype years away from any possible production, regardless of the caveats. Are Canon's sensors perfect? No. Do they do the job? Yes, and very well. For my commercial work, I've yet to find the dynamic range a limiting factor. For my own personal work, if I really feel the DR is an issue, I bracket and merge. That in itself yields far more DR than any given chip on the market. But to say any manufacturer could produce 120MP sensor is just not true. We would have seen it by now.
Nemo
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Bernard, I'd be careful about making such broad, sweeping statements such as "... it is also obvious that any sensor maker can manufacture today a 120 mp sensor..". The fact is, they can't. Because if they could, if they could even approach that ability, Samsung, Sony or whomever would let everyone know they could do it, even if it was just a prototype years away from any possible production, regardless of the caveats.
...
But to say any manufacturer could produce 120MP sensor is just not true. We would have seen it by now.
The other manufacturers may know that telling the world about a 120mp sensor without any other specs is meaningless?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard, I'd be careful about making such broad, sweeping statements such as "... it is also obvious that any sensor maker can manufacture today a 120 mp sensor..". The fact is, they can't. Because if they could, if they could even approach that ability, Samsung, Sony or whomever would let everyone know they could do it, even if it was just a prototype years away from any possible production, regardless of the caveats. Are Canon's sensors perfect? No. Do they do the job? Yes, and very well. For my commercial work, I've yet to find the dynamic range a limiting factor. For my own personal work, if I really feel the DR is an issue, I bracket and merge. That in itself yields far more DR than any given chip on the market. But to say any manufacturer could produce 120MP sensor is just not true. We would have seen it by now.
Nemo
Of course they can ALL show samples. When the Sony 50MP chip came on the market, the Raw sample files distributed by Sony were 2 years old. The problem is that they cannot get the economically viable yields *today*. Today, only one chip in 20 or so will work, and they won't be tuned to effective use - the video speeds will be bad, readout will be slow etc. That is why they have R&D departments and production engineers who slowly turn the prototypes into commercial products.
Edmund
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Of course they can ALL show samples. When the Sony 50MP chip came on the market, the Raw sample files distributed by Sony were 2 years old. The problem is that they cannot get the economically viable yields *today*. Today, only one chip in 20 or so will work, and they won't be tuned to effective use - the video speeds will be bad, readout will be slow etc. That is why they have R&D departments and production engineers who slowly turn the prototypes into commercial products.
Hi Edmund,
What (conveniently) seems to be ignored, is that a company like Sony depends on introducing new (relatively untested technology) at a rapid pace. This allows to fund their research, but also means short product life-cycles. Any forward looking statement (like the longer term vision expressed by Canon's frequent 'development', not announcement (!), press-releases) would threaten the chance of people buying in to the latest fad, instead of waiting for a more mature product or skipping a generation.
We've seen e.g. the A7R development with various issues like irreversible Raw compression artifacts, shutter shock, limited battery capacity, and service problems. Canon on the other hand, operating with a different marketing model, has no ill effects to be expected from disclosing what their future vision is. Canon first developed a new vibration reduction shutter mechanism, before introducing a new high resolution camera body, the 5DS / 5DS R. People will not postpone their next Canon purchase because of such vision statements, but rather see it as confidence building for the long haul. Canon's camera/lens service is a very useful feature for the long term use of their products. I've had 2 shutters replaced (out of warranty but for free, and with available replacement bodies) because they started showing issues too long before their rated operational life expectancy.
Given this completely different marketing approach, I still think that Michael's qualification of FUD is totally misplaced (besides being the wrong term), and not a (panic) reaction but a common procedure/tradition of sharing long term vision and all sorts of technology development reports, a long time before they are turned into White papers on actually announced/introduced products.
Again, a development report is not a product announcement. The latter is potentially a tactic called 'pre-announcement' if it takes a long time to actual delivery of production models. A pre-announcement is indeed intended to buy time, but that was not what the press releases were about.
Cheers,
Bart.
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The other manufacturers may know that telling the world about a 120mp sensor without any other specs is meaningless?
Cheers,
Bernard
Doubtful. In the tech world, every manufacturer uses any chance they have to tell the world of their upcoming advances -- even if they don't necessarily see the light of day as a consumer product. (Note that the Canon 4 million ISO camera is marketed toward the security and surveillance industry.)
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Doubtful. In the tech world, every manufacturer uses any chance they have to tell the world of their upcoming advances -- even if they don't necessarily see the light of day as a consumer product. (Note that the Canon 4 million ISO camera is marketed toward the security and surveillance industry.)
Precisely, characterizing a future sensor as offering 120mp isn't at all an indication of it being a technological advance.
Using one of those great car analogies, Ferrari doesn't just announce that they are working on a new F1 able to reach 400mph because that would tell us very little about it's ability to win races nor why future road Ferraris would be better cars for their owners. The reason being that top speed is easy to advance if you forget about the need for a car to turn, be comfortable, safe,... ;)
End of story, I can't explain it better.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Precisely, characterizing a future sensor as offering 120mp isn't at all an indication of it being a technological advance.
Using one of those great car analogies, Ferrari doesn't just announce that they are working on a new F1 able to reach 400mph because that would tell us very little about it's ability to win races nor why future road Ferraris would be better cars for their owners. The reason being that top speed is easy to advance if you forget about the need for a car to turn, be comfortable, safe,... ;)
End of story, I can't explain it better.
Cheers,
Bernard
I'm sorry. I don't feel the Ferrari analogy really applies. But, if you insist on using that, what do you think all the prototypes at the car shows represent? It represents the state of their technology, thinking and progress. Ferrari has presented many show cars that never saw the light of day. And while many show cars are fantastical, many represent versions of cars that are not far from the production line. And top speed is NOT easy to achieve. Otherwise, as you said about sensors, all companies could produce high speed cars.
If Canon already has a working sensor of 250MP, why is it so far fetched to think that they can't produce something closer to 120MP? While Canon's lead may have slipped some, remember which company, before they started down a more conservative road, was FAR ahead of everyone. Not alike many car companies which swing between aggressive and solidifying their gains. I guess I can't quite fathom why you feel a company with a very long history of technological advances might not be able to pull this off?
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Bart,
Hold your horses. Sony -as you say- churn through tech and models at a huge clip, spray and pray; Canon strategize, and slowly evolve their range, and have excellent service. BUT THIS IS THE COMPANY CULTURE, NOTHING TO DO WITH TECHNOLOGY. Canon love their long term lens range plans, Sony love their proprietary connectors for add-on finders, microphones, screens and their strange media formats. The thing is when push comes to shove, Sony has much the better semiconductor tech *today*, while Canon has a significantly better optics design department; and so neither can really score a quick knockout blow.
When it comes to cameras, I guess a compact has a one year life - so Sony wins, and a mirrorless camera is somewhere between the longterm investment an SLR used to be, and a compact, so again it is a quick sell to anybody with money. Apart from "Cooter", half the guys here don't care about the $3200 which an A7IIR costs, it's the price of an MF lens and what my dentist makes on a bad morning. And people who care about the price are not really buyers any more, it is more profitable to sell two cameras a year to a lawyer or a dentist than to sell one camera every 3 years to someone like me or you. Rich people are getting richer and they are getting flashier. The "replace your iPhone every year" trend is also one of Sony's mainstays, let's not underestimate the profit you make from selling a hundred million camera modules every year.
Edmund
Hi Edmund,
What (conveniently) seems to be ignored, is that a company like Sony depends on introducing new (relatively untested technology) at a rapid pace. This allows to fund their research, but also means short product life-cycles. Any forward looking statement (like the longer term vision expressed by Canon's frequent 'development', not announcement (!), press-releases) would threaten the chance of people buying in to the latest fad, instead of waiting for a more mature product or skipping a generation.
We've seen e.g. the A7R development with various issues like irreversible Raw compression artifacts, shutter shock, limited battery capacity, and service problems. Canon on the other hand, operating with a different marketing model, has no ill effects to be expected from disclosing what their future vision is. Canon first developed a new vibration reduction shutter mechanism, before introducing a new high resolution camera body, the 5DS / 5DS R. People will not postpone their next Canon purchase because of such vision statements, but rather see it as confidence building for the long haul. Canon's camera/lens service is a very useful feature for the long term use of their products. I've had 2 shutters replaced (out of warranty but for free, and with available replacement bodies) because they started showing issues too long before their rated operational life expectancy.
Given this completely different marketing approach, I still think that Michael's qualification of FUD is totally misplaced (besides being the wrong term), and not a (panic) reaction but a common procedure/tradition of sharing long term vision and all sorts of technology development reports, a long time before they are turned into White papers on actually announced/introduced products.
Again, a development report is not a product announcement. The latter is potentially a tactic called 'pre-announcement' if it takes a long time to actual delivery of production models. A pre-announcement is indeed intended to buy time, but that was not what the press releases were about.
Cheers,
Bart.
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Hi,
My take on the Sony A7rII, after having it for three weeks and doing two weeks of travel shots is that it is a competent sensor in an attractive body. My best lens is the Sony 90/2.8G macro and it shows what the system can do. It is highly impressive.
With A-lenses focus is a bit slow, but very accurate. Probably no great predictive AF.
User interface is complex and documentation a bit thin.
So, it is a great camera in the best of worlds, at least for the static shooter.
Best regards
Erik
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Hi,
My take on the Sony A7rII, after having it for three weeks and doing two weeks of travel shots is that it is a competent sensor in an attractive body. My best lens is the Sony 90/2.8G macro and it shows what the system can do. It is highly impressive.
With A-lenses focus is a bit slow, but very accurate. Probably no great predictive AF.
User interface is complex and documentation a bit thin.
So, it is a great camera in the best of worlds, at least for the static shooter.
Best regards
Erik
OK. One satisfied customer. And if you are getting paid in swedish money, and it is not a huge outlay, why demand more?
We need feedback on E lenses and Canon lenses.
"Net wages are a good indication of expendable income: a worker in Zurich will have almost 23 times the amount of money to spend than a similar worker in Kiev."
https://www.ubs.com/microsites/prices-earnings/edition-2015.html
Edmund
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Again, a development report is not a product announcement. The latter is potentially a tactic called 'pre-announcement' if it takes a long time to actual delivery of production models. A pre-announcement is indeed intended to buy time, but that was not what the press releases were about.
As one whose working career was spent in the pharmaceutical industry, R&D announcements are customary and usually required by various securities laws. There always is a disclaimer as there is with any public announcement from public companies. Such announcements are usually made when the potential drug enters human clinical testing and it may be several years before it is known whether this compound gets licensed for use (the majority are never approved because they either do not work or pose significant safety issues that cannot be managed). Many companies in other fields issue statements about R&D activities. I see nothing wrong with Canon doing this and that such information be taken with a grain (or pound depending on one's expertise in the area) of salt.
In the long run it is always better to have the camera of today than sit and wait for the camera of tomorrow to appear. Many of us have only one system camera and we make the best of it using existing technology. I overcome limitations of the D300 sensor by stitching which as already noted by Bernard something that has been around for a while! ;D
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OK. One satisfied customer. And if you are getting paid in swedish money, and it is not a huge outlay, why demand more?
We need feedback on E lenses and Canon lenses.
"Net wages are a good indication of expendable income: a worker in Zurich will have almost 23 times the amount of money to spend than a similar worker in Kiev."
https://www.ubs.com/microsites/prices-earnings/edition-2015.html
Edmund
Zurich is in Switzerland.
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Zurich is in Switzerland.
If you say so, I'll believe you. I live in Paris and I rarely go out.
Kiev is in Ukraine, Wikipedia informs me.
My point is that with a 23x expendable income multiplier, a random male in Zurich is now the ideal customer for Sony, and he doesn't have the same long-range view of his investment as photographer in Kiev.
I am sorry, but the average pro (or non pro) photographer in Kiev may be a real artist, a skilful and original technician, the author of several photo books, a valuable human being, and a good father, but he has no money, and in the eyes of Sony and Canon, he now counts about as much as a goatherd in Afghanistan when viewed by a US drone operator. (come to think of it, maybe their lack of disposable income is what made Afghan goatherds disposable). On the other hand your average oligarch probably keeps the Sony Style shop going. Cameras are now consumables and fashion goods for the inhabitants of the richer countries, and the richer inhabitants of the poorer ones. Just like iPhones, when you think of it. And so Sony are justified in bringing out novelty cameras with zillions of features. Their strategy is commercially sound. I have no doubt that the photographer in Kiev is proud of his somewhat older Canon gear :)
Edmund
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If you say so, I'll believe you. I live in Paris and I rarely go out.
LOL, Edmund. Thanks for injecting a bit of levity into an otherwise overly sober discussion.
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Back in the day (and I know many here will remember), when IBM was king, if another company started shipping a computer that was faster or in some way better than anything that IBM then had, they would quickly announce a new model that – on promise at least – blew the competition into the weeds.
At that time, the slogan in business and academia was "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".
Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".
Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael
Sounds really familiar. Over on the entertainment media side, this game is played so often it's a tradition (Disney became notorious for it after Eisner took over in '85 -- he brought it with him from Paramount, and his successor team has honed it to a fine art in their theme park business). I don't know how it's played by Canon's management hierarchy, but the most eye-rolling part of it here in L.A. is how corporate management convinces themselves it's not a game -- these guys literally believe their own b.s.
>:(