Canon sows FUD

[AlterEgo]

But, the minicomputer is very, very dead.

how do you define a minicomputer then ?

what is this = http://www.supermicro.com/products/nfo/gpu.cfm , standalone box with up to 4 Tesla GPU accelerator cards and 1TeraByte Ram ? PC ? mainframe ?

[tom b]

Fud, who cares! 1.8 billion images are posted online each day.

LuLa, maybe ten plus photos posted each day.

Cheers,

[chez]

We would be more or less where we are today. I think "exploded" is very much exaggerated. I hardly see anybody using Sony A7 cameras when I go to London, Paris, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Lisbon (where I live), or Muscat. What I see is still the prevalence of people/tourists using entry level DSLR (consumer level) and the prevalence of pros using DSLRs.

I don't think that Canon or Nikon have felt the pressure (yet?), especially Canon have been showing their muscle in the last couple of years, releasing top quality lens after top quality lens, completing revamping their f2.8 pro zoom lenses, their TS lenses, some f1.4 primes, new top quality 16-35 f4 and 24-70 f4 zooms, 11-24 f 4 zoom, their 400, 500, and 600 mm lenses, etc. This is just lenses.

As for their DSLRs, they lagged behind in resolution for a while, but are now the top ones again. I know all about the DR, so no need to mention:) I could mention the Sony compressed raw thing:)

Sony all but have abandoned their NEX APSC line, never made it into a system... no new cameras, no new lenses (even Zeiss and Sigma seem to have forgotten that they exist). The FF A7 seems is gaining momentum, but really, sometimes it seems that only serious hobbyists and some fine art pros are using it. But I am all for it, after all, I am using it and have committed to it. Hope it does not go the way of the dodo, as with other Sony "experiences"...

Interchangeable lens mirrorless cameras went from 0% market share to roughly 25% market share in the total interchangeable lens camera market. Most of these mirrorless cameras are Sony. I bet Canon has taken notice as their revenue and profits from their camera division have been sliding in that same time period.

5 years ago it was Sony who...today you see discussions about Sony cameras on every board.

[John Koerner]

These were not announcements of products to come.

Clearly, which again is the whole point.

They were just proof of concepts.

If there is more than one concept, then proofs of concepts is grammatically-correct.

You do not seem to know that companies make lots of such internally.

You do not seem to know that this isn't an "internal memo" within the company that we're discussing, but in fact a public announcement ...

Most them do not end up in specific products in the form they were made.

Which brings us right back to the point, yet again, does it not?

I was in agreement with the O/P: keep it internal ... if it's just nothing but a "concept" ... and only make public announcements for products/innovations, that are actually going to benefit the public.

If you want to believe that these "public announcements" were just casual releases, fine.
But I agree with the O/P that these announcements are nothing but "Hey, we're still relevant" SOS cries ... full of hot air.

And I say that as a Canon shooter, who simply cannot get excited enough to hit the "buy" button for any of their latest cameras.

I love Canon's new lenses ... but, but despite all their wonderful knick-knacks, their latest cameras just do not inspire with lagging sensor technology.

They're already dropping their prices everywhere, not even a year old yet.

IMO, "giving hope for the future" is exactly what these town-crying announcements are trying to do.

But feel free to believe differently.

Jack

[John Koerner]

...

Wouldn't you say this factoid has nothing to do with image-making for most photographic applications?

If some mega-sensor has certain crime, or surveillance, applications ... great.

But it's not really a qualitative step forward, for the benefit of photographers, just a freak feat.

[John Koerner]

I can only assume Canon didn't fully realise what Sony was up to and capable of. Companies at that level of success are often at fault for not engaging with the customers needs and wants. They can and do lose touch of reality thinking they can stall developments until there is enough competition to do something. I was a long term customer with Canon but they refused to offer anything worthy of upgrading for several iterations and I was tired of everything having issues with their gear, some of it not working, or the lenses being soft, so I jumped ship and have not looked back.

I'm not a Sony shooter but thank heavens for them who have shaken things up nicely and have kept the pace and momentum going, something I think Canon are surprised by. It will have a knock on effect and I'm sure we're going to see things moving in medium format too.

I agree with this.

The 7D II would have been a home-run hit ... with a Sony Sensor and 4K video ... but with an already-outdated sensor and yesterday's news "standard HD" video, why bother "upgrading" to a new camera that is already obsolete in its core elements?

The 5Ds may be nicer than the 5D III, but with already-lacking DR, and (again) standard HD video, with its only redeeming feature being "50 mpx," it will be so-quickly-obsolete that it's not worth the upgrade either IMO.

By contrast, the Nikon D810 may not be perfect, but it was a truly significant upgrade that lasted as a front-runner for a pretty good stretch of time.

"Bigger" and Better is exciting news;

Bigger and "not quite as good" is, um, not very exciting.

JMO

[eronald]

So many axes to grind, so little time.

In any event, my understanding of the word FUD is exactly as I used it and as I first described it. Scroll back a few pages. Nothing has changed. (Here is one definition...the one that's at the top of the page when you Google the word..."fear, uncertainty and doubt, usually evoked intentionally in order to put a competitor at a disadvantage".

The Canon announcement of a 120MP camera is designed to sow FOD in my view. No detailed specs, no delivery date and no price. It's a "here is what we're thinking of" type of announcement, and depending on timing can either be innocent or FUD. I see it as FUD.

Sony's announcement today of the A7s II is a straightforward product announcement; detailed specs, price and delivery date (this month).

I don't know why this difference eludes some.

Michael

Michael,

 Yes, the Canon announcement is a classic FUD preannouncement tactic. As Synn elaborates very aptly, it is an attempt at damage control.

 However it is an inept attempt at best because the Sony is lens-compatible with the Canon to a degree, so the user believes his defection fine is limited to the body cost  minus resale — "Aww, I'll just buy me this old A7IIR, put my old lenses on it, and if Canon they come out with a real good sensor, well I can just sell the A7 and switch back in a couple of years ..."

 Canon would have one blunt and effective defensive tactic: Slash all body -still and video- prices by 30%  and eat the loss while they up their tech.

 This would be a good opportunity for the fake Chuck Westfall to strut his stuff. Alas, he has retired.

Edmund

[BJL]

First, just a quibble: "vaporware" is the term for announcing products that are in fact far from fully developed, in order to persuade customers to wait for them rather buying an actual product from a competitor.  It was coined when IBM did this.  Rival CDC had announced a new super-computer well ahead of any IBM product, and IBM responded by deceptively touting a coming product to match it ... which was never delivered.  The last part is also important to being "vaporware" as opposed to "advanced notice", which I as a customer actually like.  Or are "product roadmaps" now evil vaporware?

Canon's announcements might be in this category, but they are only announcimg development plans, not claiming to have products developed and coming soon (as IBM did).

P. S. That 120MP 30x20mm _sensor_ does exist ... The fact that it is not in any Canon DSLR is hardly surprising, as it is rather clearly intended for special purpose tools like aerial mapping photography, surveillance and such.

[eronald]

There seems to be a new prototype SLR on show.

Edmund

First, just a quibble: "vaporware" is the term for announcing products that are in fact far from fully developed, in order to persuade customers to wait for them rather buying an actual product from a competitor.  It was coined when IBM did this.  Rival CDC had announced a new super-computer well ahead of any IBM product, and IBM responded by deceptively touting a coming product to match it ... which was never delivered.  The last part is also important to being "vaporware" as opposed to "advanced notice", which I as a customer actually like.  Or are "product roadmaps" now evil vaporware?

Canon's announcements might be in this category, but they are only announcimg development plans, not claiming to have products developed and coming soon (as IBM did).

P. S. That 120MP 30x20mm _sensor_ does exist ... The fact that it is not in any Canon DSLR is hardly surprising, as it is rather clearly intended for special purpose tools like aerial mapping photography, surveillance and such.

[BernardLanguillier]

First, just a quibble: "vaporware" is the term for announcing products that are in fact far from fully developed, in order to persuade customers to wait for them rather buying an actual product from a competitor.  It was coined when IBM did this.  Rival CDC had announced a new super-computer well ahead of any IBM product, and IBM responded by deceptively touting a coming product to match it ... which was never delivered.  The last part is also important to being "vaporware" as opposed to "advanced notice", which I as a customer actually like.  Or are "product roadmaps" now evil vaporware?

Canon's announcements might be in this category, but they are only announcimg development plans, not claiming to have products developed and coming soon (as IBM did).

P. S. That 120MP 30x20mm _sensor_ does exist ... The fact that it is not in any Canon DSLR is hardly surprising, as it is rather clearly intended for special purpose tools like aerial mapping photography, surveillance and such.

Doesn't vapourware apply to a real product with published specs, sometimes benchmark results, a tentative price and a production plan but with a very long time btwn annoucement and actual availability?

The Leica S 007 was vapourware for one year until a few weeks ago for instance.

Vapourware is IMHO way too kind for the Canon annoucement.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Doesn't vapourware apply to a real product with published specs, sometimes benchmark results, a tentative price and a production plan but with a very long time btwn annoucement and actual availability?

Not really, that's more about a non existing product, it's vapor. It gets even worse if it is announced as a finished product, to be launched at date 'x', and still never materializes. It remains vapor.

Vaporware.

In the computer industry, vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled.

Vaporware is often announced months or years before its purported release, with development details lacking. Developers have been accused of intentionally promoting vaporware to keep customers from switching to competing products that offer more features.

The Leica S 007 was vapourware for one year until a few weeks ago for instance.

No, it was a tangible product, which was announced, that just took longer to be ready for market.

Vapourware is IMHO way too kind for the Canon annoucement.

No, it's just the wrong term for it. It's a development report, but not an announcement.

Cheers,
Bart

[Bernard ODonovan]

Is this the Locomotive Acts thread... 

[fdisilvestro]

I agree with the view expressed by Bart and others, that this is not really FUD, but a development report. Remember that the audience is not just photographers. Canon is a company listed in the stock exchange (NSYE:CAJ) and as such it is important to communicate to your investors what is going on.

Would you invest in a company that only talks about the products that are readily available in stores and everything else is just internal memos? I would not, I want to know what they are working on, what is to expect in the future.

IMHO, FUD is when companies spread rumours about the issues you are going to face if you change for the competition, such as bad quality, lack of support, etc.

[BJL]

Doesn't vapourware apply to a real product with published specs, sometimes benchmark results, a tentative price and a production plan but with a very long time btwn annoucement and actual availability?

That is the new meaning coined by the impatient and cynical for a mere long lag between announcement and delivery.  The original "IBM vs CDC" meaning, as I said, was making a concrete announcement of product coming soon, but _never_ delivering, or not even having the product in development yet when the announcement is made.

Vapourware is IMHO way too kind for the Canon annoucement.

Frankly, that is quite a bizarre accusation (piling on against Canon seem to be in fashion -- perhaps payback for the arrogance of _some_ Canon partisans back in the day when it did have the best sensors?)  Canon has merely made a vague but for all we know completely factual statement about products being in the  early stages of development: how is that worse than (or even as bad as) a company falsely claiming to have a product coming soon when it does not?

Even the Leica S "007" was merely delayed, and was indeed fairly well along in development when it was first announced; neither vaporware nor FUD in my book.

[scooby70]

Canon has merely made a vague but for all we know completely factual statement about products being in the  early stages of development:

I think you're bending over backwards to be as kind as possible.

If Canon are vague it's because they are being so deliberately and that raises the question of why.

I agree with the view that this is all rather desperate and in response to the seemingly never ending product announcements from Sony.

[BJL]

If Canon are vague it's because they are being so deliberately and that raises the question of why.

Please explain what is wrong with a company making vague statements about long-term product plans -- let alone why it is as bad as or worse than the dishonesty and deception of true FUD or vaporware.  If the information is of no use or interest to you, why not just move on?  It is almost as if some people prefer to be kept in the dark about a company's future products and plans.  I've never owned a Canon digital camera and have no interest in buying any of its current offerings or any of these possible future products, but this hostility and cynicism puzzles me.

[scooby70]

Please explain what is wrong with a company making vague statements about long-term product plans -- let alone why it is as bad as or worse than the dishonesty and deception of true FUD or vaporware.  If the information is of no use or interest to you, why not just move on?  It is almost as if some people prefer to be kept in the dark about a company's future products and plans.  I've never owned a Canon digital camera and have no interest in buying any of its current offerings or any of these possible future products, but this hostility and cynicism puzzles me.

Why not move on? I was under the impression that I was commenting on a subject on an open forum. Is it only ok to post if you think Canon are wonderful for making this announcement?

I'll try and answer your more sensible comments and of course this is all just my VHO and YMMV, in fact I think it does

I think that Canon are just trying to grab some airtime and maybe even retain people thinking of jumping to... Nikon? Sony? No doubt they're not alone in issuing rather vague press releases but that doesn't make it any more palatable to me. To me this looks like a rather desperate attempt to grab some air and board talk time at a time when other companies are releasing products which might tempt some Canon customers away.

I may be wrong. Who knows... it's juts my opinion. Do I expect to see this high mp count sensor in a camera any time soon. No.

This isn't hostility, just cynicism and maybe a little pity for the poor souls in Canon marketing who seem to be scrambling around for something to shout about.

Sorry if you think me saying that is taking up bandwidth.

[speedyk]

Would you invest in a company that only talks about the products that are readily available in stores and everything else is just internal memos? I would not, I want to know what they are working on, what is to expect in the future.

Like Apple?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Like Apple?

Looking at the impact that iTunes had on the profitability and revenue (and thus funds for R&D), it would indeed be nice for an investor to know ahead of time what they are working on (if anything 'next generation'), other than a rehashed iPad or iPhone at product launch.

Cheers,
Bart

[BJL]

Why not move on? I was under the impression that I was commenting on a subject on an open forum. Is it only ok to post if you think Canon are wonderful for making this announcement?

Sorry for a misunderstanding: of course it is fine to comment on an objectionable or misleading announcement from a company.  What I was referring to was finding anything objectionable in the first place, given that this is just a company giving a little bit of information about its longer-term plans.  In fact, I agree with the earlier comment that it would instead be objectionable for a publicly-held company to keep such information secret!

So I am glad that you try to explain why you find Canon's statement objectionable:

I think that Canon are just trying to grab some airtime and maybe even retain people thinking of jumping to... Nikon? Sony?

So, you think it is nothing but a desperate attempt to protect its (market-share and profit-share leading) DSLR sales from Sony and Nikon, by the allegedly evil strategy of giving some early and therefore not detailed information about its product development directions.

Maybe that is part of it, but I am not particularly convinced.  By the way, here are the key statements, complete with footnote disclaimer:

Canon Inc., is developing a Cinema EOS System 8K camera* and professional-use 8K reference display* that will support the production of next-generation 8K video content, along with a still-image single-lens reflex camera equipped with a CMOS sensor featuring approximately 120 million effective pixels.*

* These products are currently under development and are not available for sale or use in the U.S. Specifications may change and no assurances can be given that it will be made available for sale or use in the U.S.

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom/press_releases?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e0248100ec2f

By the way, this was one of many press releases related to a big Canon media event: https://expo.usa.canon.com

In particular, the part about 8K video has nothing to do with DSLRs or with competing against Nikon.  It is simply a response to the fact that the Japanese broadcast television industry is moving towards 8K, with a goal to be there by 2020, so the professional video products divisions at Canon, Panasonic and Sony are surely all working on this.