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Author Topic: archival properties - paper ink permanence info  (Read 21357 times)

FrankG

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archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« on: November 20, 2014, 09:40:41 pm »

I looked on the aardenburg-imaging page but they dont list tests for the following -

3880 epson printer with ultrachrome inks (w. vivid M)

- epson exhibition Fiber
- ilford gold fiber silk
(& perhaps canson baryta photographique)

Can anyone point me to documentation or a simple statement of their comparitive longevity

Thax
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2014, 09:52:05 pm »

Wilhelm-Research has information on Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, published on their website - not a joy to navigate, but the data is there.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2014, 10:12:40 pm »

  ??? you're not kidding. How on earth does anyone find anything on that site

I found this (by luck) http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/WIR_Ep3880_2010_04_14.pdf
but it only covers Exhibition Fiber & other epson papers.
They rate EEF at a whopping 90-200 yrs optical brighteners and all

Is this the Ilford page you were referring to. No mention of printers/inks.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/Ilford/WIR_Ilford_2011_07_21.pdf
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:23:04 pm by FrankG »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2014, 10:21:44 pm »

Keep scrolling. I'm pretty sure you'll find stiff on IGFS.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 10:35:42 pm »

found and edited a link into previous post
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2014, 11:14:15 pm »

Is this the Ilford page you were referring to. No mention of printers/inks.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/Ilford/WIR_Ilford_2011_07_21.pdf

First paragraph of the PDF linked above: "The image permanence data presented here are based on test samples printed with a Hewlett-Packard Designjet Z3200 printer and 12-color HP Vivera 70 pigment inks."
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 04:01:38 am »

I looked on the aardenburg-imaging page but they dont list tests for the following -

3880 epson printer with ultrachrome inks (w. vivid M)

- epson exhibition Fiber
- ilford gold fiber silk
(& perhaps canson baryta photographique)

Can anyone point me to documentation or a simple statement of their comparitive longevity

Thax

The EEF (or EU Epson Traditional Fibre) weakest color in Aardenburg-Imaging fade tests is its paper white so any measured ink patch holds better. For all the tested Epson pigment inks, Ultrachrome up to the 3880 ink set, the yellow ink is the worst and that has not changed for printers above 13" width. Check the EEF tests of other Epson models on the paper white and yellow patch I would say.

The IGFS as distributed by Ilford Imaging until its collapse end of 2013 is replaced by a similar quality with a slightly higher white reflectance probably manufactured by Felix Schoeller. Distributor the new Ilford undertaking with Japanese/Aussie interests. There are now two varieties, one that resembles the old IGFS / Canson Baryta Photographique / Innova IFA69 and more brands, the other the new IGFS / Felix Schoeller J23160 True Baryta / Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta / MediaJet PhotoArt White Baryta. The last group has the higher white reflectance. Could be that I observe a moving target and all brands will switch to the higher reflectance type but right now older fade tests may no longer describe the papers that are distributed. The IGFS had a reasonable reputation in fade testing, some OBA content though which is also present in the new version.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2014 update, 680+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 08:27:12 am »

Thanks for your in-depth reply Ernst.

Admittedly, as a non-expert, much of it goes over my head and I don't find specific col issues (eg yellow) useful for my purpose.

My purpose is to be able to tell someone that receives one of my prints what the expected life of the print is (not exposed to humidity/direct sun) and framed using acid free materials.
I have a 3880 with epson inks and print on currently available (in Toronto) EEF,  Iford GFS,  or Canson Baryta Photographique
So I was looking to ask a reader if they can point me to relevant (simplified) information.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 08:45:40 am »

Thanks for your in-depth reply Ernst.

Admittedly, as a non-expert, much of it goes over my head and I don't find specific col issues (eg yellow) useful for my purpose.

My purpose is to be able to tell someone that receives one of my prints what the expected life of the print is (not exposed to humidity/direct sun) and framed using acid free materials.
I have a 3880 with epson inks and print on currently available (in Toronto) EEF,  Iford GFS,  or Canson Baryta Photographique
So I was looking to ask a reader if they can point me to relevant (simplified) information.

Frank - understood, and not always easy to get simple answers to intricate matters. However, you may be interested to know that on the packaging of the new boxes of Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, there is a circular part of the label that says CERTIFIED-WIR (which is Wilhelm Imaging Research). Then when you read the fine print, it says "Select Ilford Inkjet Papers and HP Pigment Inks". So it could be what I saw on his website relates to HP and not Epson. Then there is a question about what "Certified" means. That is not explained, nor could I find a definition on the WIR website - could be there, but you've seen what the site is like and who has time........Also, one has to assume that if this information is pasted onto an IGFS box, IGFS is one of the "select Ilford Inkjet Papers". Not clear to me that sending them an email asking for a definition and clarification would help much because previous emails I've sent there asking to clarify certain information have never been answered, but that was years ago, and I stopped trying.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2014, 09:05:36 am »

I'm not disputing anything said but I do find it odd that one cant easily retrieve 'print permanence' info.
I mean the printer (3880) & inks and the 3 papers I mentioned (EEF, GFS & the Canson) have got to be among the more commonly used products. Certainly not obscure.
And all things being equal (no direct sun, humidity & acid free storage or framing materials) we should be able to have a good estimate of a print's longevity.
Can we call it archival ? What does archival mean, practically? 20 years, 50 years, 100 years before fading occurs?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 09:31:18 am »

The first thing one needs to bear in mind, is that at least in the case of WIR - it's a commercial service. Paper manufacturers pay them to test their papers. So if HP paid for a test they are prepared to release into the public domain and Epson didn't,we would not find published results for Epson inks on IGFS paper. Aardenburg may have some published test results (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4777c2hvd19kb2NfbGlzdC80) - worth checking. They don't have your exact combination, but others closed that may be "relationally" insightful. Now, the fact that the inkset is considered "archival" and the paper is generally considered "archival", put the two together and perhaps you can call the combination "archival". Burt you ask what "archival" means. Good question. I had always thought it means "at least 100 years before predicted light fading would occur", but there may be more, or other things, to it than that.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 09:51:27 am »

IIRC there is some data on IGFS (old type) with Epson Ultrachrome inks with VM for larger format printers.  You can extrapolate this data to the 3880 as there really should be little or no difference.  Remember the weakest color in the Epson set is Yellow so anything that uses Yellow will show fading quicker (flesh tones are a big one here!).  Ernst has noted that the "new" IGFS may be different now that the company is changed and the old test data may not be good for the newer paper.  If other manufacturers switch to higher content OBA papers things will change as well.  We as consumers don't have much input in this other than to use only OBA free papers but even then there can be issues (a couple of years ago Museo ran into problems when they switched paper suppliers). 
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2014, 10:04:40 am »

excuse my ignorance. What is IIRC.

Since there appears to be no straight answer to my question, for reasons explained, what do you guys think a conservatively safe estimate is for the combos mentioned - allowing for the optical brightners, the issues with yellow etc
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2014, 10:44:29 am »

Clearly, the safest, most conservative estimate would be to look over all the data you can find between Aardenburg and WIR and use the lowest estimate, prefaced with an "at least". And tell your customers there is no warranty because all of this is estimated using predictive testing methodologies - no-one has lived through a cycle of 100 years of inkjet printing to know for sure - not even our barber/hairdresser!  :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MHMG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2014, 12:00:27 pm »

I'm not disputing anything said but I do find it odd that one cant easily retrieve 'print permanence' info...

...Can we call it archival ? What does archival mean, practically? 20 years, 50 years, 100 years before fading occurs?


Print permanence testing is labor intensive and requires expensive testing equipment as well. To mention just one of many obstacles impeding this type of research is the fact that neither the WIR funding model nor the Aardenburg funding model are robust enough on their own merits to cover the kind of comprehensive, summarized but not oversimplified, and easy-to-retrieve ;) collection of published information you envision should be readily available to the public. 

Also, add the assumed ease of reprinting digital files at will into this discussion, and the majority of today's digital photographers don't seem to be concerned about print longevity as much as they once were. The whole idea of the "archival" print itself thus appears to have entered "the trough of no value"

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/02/the-trough-of-no-value.html


kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2014, 12:17:11 pm »

I've lived long enough now to see what happened to colour prints made in the 1950s - so I do believe in longevity. Printing is a lot of work, and if we think it may be of interest to our survivors, even within the limits of the family, printing with materials that have reasonably good archival properties remains important, at least to me, and I would expect to others as well. One can't predict at what stage in one's life it becomes important or interesting to look back, and when doing so, one wants to look back at something that has well survived the decades.I don't think this "longevity trough" is forever - there will come a time when enough people wake-up to value what they valued at the outset of this digital revolution, and then the services dealing in print longevity will see more business and be better positioned to look at different financial models from those prevailing now.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2014, 12:20:20 pm »

I don't think aardenburg or wilhelm should do this entirely at their own expense but would rather expect the paper companies should let their buyers know what to expect of their products
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2014, 12:56:04 pm »

@Frank - IIRC = If I Recall Correctly (short form that was used in the early days of Usenet email when we paid by the character.

Also, add the assumed ease of reprinting digital files at will into this discussion, and the majority of today's digital photographers don't seem to be concerned about print longevity as much as they once were. The whole idea of the "archival" print itself thus appears to have entered "the trough of no value"

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Quite correct.  I have a friend who does pretty well selling images.  He only prints on Epson Exhibition Fiber despite the very high levels of OBAs and fast fading.  He likes the paper and is willing to reprint a new version for customers should they become dissatisfied with the print over time.  This is all well and good but what happens when he's no longer around?

If one goes back and looks at the history of 'wet' photography one sees the huge investment of time and effort by the manufacturers of chemicals and paper to come up with better products that improved both processing and permanency.  I remember as a graduate student (chemistry) going down into the library stacks and finding numerous volumes discussing new development formulas, processes for fixing and toning prints.  I'm not sure that there is the same interest on the part of the inkjet paper and hardware companies.
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2014, 01:24:10 pm »

a friend who does pretty well selling images.  He only prints on Epson Exhibition Fiber despite the very high levels of OBAs and fast fading. 

Alan, would you be willing to ask what he has found out about the EEF. And what longevity/permanence rating he tells his buyers?
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2014, 02:59:47 pm »

Guestimates, not scientific - epson 3880 printer

canson baryta photographique  = 45+ years
reference - http://www.wilhelm-research.com/Canson/WIR_Canson_2012_02_20.pdf

ilford gold fiber silk - 200 yrs & knock off 100 for good measure = 100 years
reference (only hp printer results found, hence halving the result) - http://www.wilhelm-research.com/Ilford/Ilford.html

EEF (epson exhibition fiber) = 90 years
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/WIR_Ep3880_2010_04_14.pdf

Do you concur ?
(additional info welcomed)

« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 03:12:52 pm by FrankG »
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