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Author Topic: archival properties - paper ink permanence info  (Read 21420 times)

FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2014, 06:38:21 pm »

Just got back home with my first box of Canson Baryta Photographique and am going to start printing "archival prints that will last decades in a conducive environment"  ;D

Off topic -
But if anyone has a 3880 please let me know which paper feed path you use for this media - rear ?
And what paper thickness do you set #4 ?
Gap = Wide?
Advanced Media Control = everything at 0 ? I want the most neutral to cool (EEF) result
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 06:47:04 pm by FrankG »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2014, 07:03:23 pm »

Just got back home with my first box of Canson Baryta Photographique and am going to start printing "archival prints that will last decades in a conducive environment"  ;D

Off topic -
But if anyone has a 3880 please let me know which paper feed path you use for this media - rear ?
And what paper thickness do you set #4 ?
Gap = Wide?
Advanced Media Control = everything at 0 ? I want the most neutral to cool (EEF) result

Good paper choice. Apart from Advanced Media Control which I never deal with, I recall from my 3800 days that those settings should be fine: Rear, 4 and Wide.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2014, 07:18:40 pm »

Thanks
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MHMG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2014, 09:33:57 pm »

Just got back home with my first box of Canson Baryta Photographique and am going to start printing "archival prints that will last decades in a conducive environment"  ;D

Very well said. I particularly like your use of the phrase "conducive environment"!  You see, Frank, you have now become a masterful distiller of the more arcane technical stuff, taking this more complex subject matter and reducing it to a more simple but truthful and therefore powerful assertion of the facts :)

best,
mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2014, 09:40:52 pm »

 ;D ;D ;D ha ha ha

btw first prints are looking good ! I'm grateful for having been steered in the right direction.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2014, 09:56:26 pm »

Glad to hear it's coming together Frank.
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enduser

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2014, 06:03:58 am »

To FrankG.  Absolutely high class photos, Frank.  I would not be surprised to see some of them in general photo books for experts.  The contrasting use of highlight and shade is little short of astonishing.  Very few can be categorized as "You Only Had  to be There" photos, a common problem with a lot  of pictures.
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2014, 10:46:29 am »

Thanks.

I have two further questions please - one on and one off-topic:

Re: 'print permanence' -Is there a consensus on framing glass recommendations. It seems that UV glass can trap optical brighteners which is undesirable - correct?
And that acrylic may be a better option than plain glass?

re: printing - do you recommend High Speed ( bi-directional ?) and Finest Detail to be on or off, or if not a universal decision then when would they be on/off?
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2014, 11:00:35 am »

Thanks.

I have two further questions please - one on and one off-topic:

Re: 'print permanence' -Is there a consensus on framing glass recommendations. It seems that UV glass can trap optical brighteners which is undesirable - correct?
And that acrylic may be a better option than plain glass?

re: printing - do you recommend High Speed ( bi-directional ?) and Finest Detail to be on or off, or if not a universal decision then when would they be on/off?

regarding permanence, the very strong consensus is to avoid papers with OBA added. If you use OBA-free papers, then you can use glass with UV-filter without any problems.

High speed printing can give some problems on certain papers. Smooth, even surfaces can show a striping effect. You have to be more careful when you do your head alignment. But if you don't have these problems, why not.

Finest detail should be used if you have an image with a very high resolution. On the Epson printers, that would force the printer to use a resolution of 720 ppi instead of 360. If you have images that start out with a lower resolution, I can't see any advantage. And as Henri Cartier Bresson said: sharpness is a bourgeois concept  ;)
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2014, 11:09:24 am »

As a side note I would like to know which papers contain No optical brightners.

As you see in the early part of the thread, i was using EEF which I have now stopped because it appears to use an excess of  brightners to get that "look" which I like.
I was deciding between Gold Fibre Silk & Canson Baryta Photographique and settled on the latter for now.
Both do contain some brightners but not as much as EEF
So for this paper which framing glass ?
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2014, 11:49:20 am »

As a side note I would like to know which papers contain No optical brightners.

As you see in the early part of the thread, i was using EEF which I have now stopped because it appears to use an excess of  brightners to get that "look" which I like.
I was deciding between Gold Fibre Silk & Canson Baryta Photographique and settled on the latter for now.
Both do contain some brightners but not as much as EEF
So for this paper which framing glass ?
Our resident expert on OBA content is Ernst Dinkla, but I like Canson Platine Fibre Rag. One of the reasons is that it is OBA free.
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MHMG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2014, 11:57:55 am »

I agree with Stefan, that it's better to avoid OBA containing papers (I do that myself religiously), but many photographers do believe "neutral" white is best represented with papers that contain a little OBA. Hahnemuhle Photo Rag is an example where the CIELAB b* value of this matt finish paper has been tweaked to zero by incorporating a relatively small amount of OBAs in the paper core. For luster/gloss type "traditional Fiber" papers like CIPB, the b* value is slightly negative typically about -1 or -2 which to many printmakers appears even more "neutral" to their eye under gallery lighting, but I"m personally "calibrated" over years of doing these measurements to trust  b* = 0 as in fact dead neutral under 5000K lighting (Solux lamps, for example), and I'm willing to tolerate very slightly warm white such as papers measuring b* = +1, or +2, but that's my personal printmaking preference.

I achieve my sense of a "traditional photographic aesthetic" mainly by printing on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl which has a b* white point value about 1.0 so some would say a little on the warm white side. However, Photorag Pearl has so many additional desirable properties including amazing light fade resistance and media white point stability with my Canon Lucia EX ink set, that it has become my main "go to" paper.  That said, I do understand why so many folks like IGfS or CIPB, and even why some (who don't know or care about the EEF yellowing issue) love such a cool bright white paper like EEF.  It has a b* white point value of about -5.5, so quite bluish in appearance compared to other papers like Photorag Pearl.

As far as the UV blocking issue with glazing, I may surprise some of my friends here on LULA who know how much I care about print permanence by disclosing that I'm somewhat of a contrarian in what is considered to be "best archival framing practices".  I essentially don't worry about the UV blocking issue. Better to inform the customer about overall light levels on display than to falsely assure him or her that UV block glazing has solved the light fade issue no matter where the print is displayed. It's just plain wrong, but many framing professionals believe that UV is the only radiation that fades artwork. Blue wavelength radiation which you need in the light source for accurate color rendering has more than enough energy per photon to fade artwork, and there's a larger amount of it in natural daylight filtered through window glass. Hence, worryng about UV striking artwork in the typical home environment is better replaced by concern about overall light intensity levels in the location where the artwork is displayed. An inexpensive lux meter (less than $20 for some on Amazon.com) will guide the customer to much safer display illumination levels. And if the artwork is hung where more appropriate illumination levels are achieved, then the UV content issue gets dealt with just fine as well.

I select glazing(s) primarily by laying down various samples over the printed image and pick one that has low impact on media white and highlight colors.  Every glazing has some impact on highlight and media white point color, but some combination of glazing and image content are much worse than others. For example, using a full UV block glazing on a print containing OBA will have an obvious impact, but even a full UV block acrylic has a basic yellowish cast to it that will impact any document underneath, including ones that have no OBA content.  Regular photo grade framing glass has a lot of iron content in it that imparts an unwelcome greenish tint to some images. Water white glass, both anti-reflection coated and uncoated tend to show the least impact on image color. Standard acrylic is excellent for retaining image color as well, and is light weight, but scratches easily. So, no glazing works ideally in all applications and with all artwork.

Whether any imparted color change is acceptable to the enduser is a matter of personal choice and again somewhat image content dependent. Images with large areas of whites and pastel highlights in them, especially light blues and cyans, are much more sensitive to choice of glazing than images containing only rich bold colors.   The primary role of any glazing, IMHO, is to protect the print from air borne pollution, handling grease, and grime, and physical scratches or abrasion.  Any of the typical glazing materials will do that.

I would encourage printmakers to build their own "sample kit" of different glazing products on the market, and experiment with how they influence image appearance under different lighting conditions. It's quite an instructive exercise. Frame destination ( http://www.framedestination.com ) has a pretty good selection of different glazing products. You can buy a small piece of each type, and request they label them for you. I'm sure there are many other good suppliers as well, both locally, and on the internet that can help you out, but FrameDestination is a supplier I use routinely with good results.   Some smallish size pieces of glazing should not be too expensive for you to build your personal kit and to show friends and/or clients how the glazing choice impacts the color and tonal appearance of the print.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 05:16:32 pm by MHMG »
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2014, 12:18:20 pm »

Again, amazing reply Mark. Your depth of knowledge and experience is awesome.
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William Walker

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2014, 03:32:33 am »

Hi Frank

Regarding your post on settings on the 3880 with Canson Inifinity Baryta Photographique: Eric Chan made an ABW profile for that paper a few years ago ( http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3880/abwprofiles.html ) and recommends the Platen Gap to be set to "Wide".

If you find "track marks" on your prints - try that.

I also enjoyed your work, and as soon as I saw one picture, (you'll know which one it is!) I knew you had been to South Africa!

Regards
William
(Pietermaritzburg).
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FrankG

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2014, 09:33:02 am »

Thanks.
I've had those ABW profiles for a while, trying a B/W print right now in fact, but no luck - they always seem to come out too dark compared to the profiled screen image (which doesn't happen with my col images/profiles).

I haven't been to SA, I'm from SA, although I left a very long time ago. Natal looks beautiful in your pictures.
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JRSmit

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2014, 02:30:58 pm »

Stefan, ik use 720ppi plus fin details on as my standard setting. Not just about edge sharpness but also as the smoothest print of tone and nuances. I print from Lightroom which does a very  good job of uprezzing.
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2014, 06:39:27 pm »

Stefan, ik use 720ppi plus fin details on as my standard setting. Not just about edge sharpness but also as the smoothest print of tone and nuances. I print from Lightroom which does a very  good job of uprezzing.

I seldom print anything in smaller sizes that 24 x 36". With a resolution of 720 ppi that gives me a file size of 1.25 GB and a print speed of an ant. In a more normal size of 44 x 36" that is increased to 2.3 GB and my network will have the speed of a glacier, which takes 5000 years from the snow settles on the mountain top until it will be an iceberg.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2014, 06:41:37 pm »

And for prints of that size you don't normally need that kind of crazy-high resolution because they would be normally viewed at some distance, save for the true pixel-peepers.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2014, 09:39:39 pm »

The EEF (or EU Epson Traditional Fibre) weakest color in Aardenburg-Imaging fade tests is its paper white so any measured ink patch holds better. For all the tested Epson pigment inks, Ultrachrome up to the 3880 ink set, the yellow ink is the worst and that has not changed for printers above 13" width. Check the EEF tests of other Epson models on the paper white and yellow patch I would say.

The IGFS as distributed by Ilford Imaging until its collapse end of 2013 is replaced by a similar quality with a slightly higher white reflectance probably manufactured by Felix Schoeller. Distributor the new Ilford undertaking with Japanese/Aussie interests. There are now two varieties, one that resembles the old IGFS / Canson Baryta Photographique / Innova IFA69 and more brands, the other the new IGFS / Felix Schoeller J23160 True Baryta / Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta / MediaJet PhotoArt White Baryta. The last group has the higher white reflectance. Could be that I observe a moving target and all brands will switch to the higher reflectance type but right now older fade tests may no longer describe the papers that are distributed. The IGFS had a reasonable reputation in fade testing, some OBA content though which is also present in the new version.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2014 update, 680+ inkjet media white spectral plots



Following up on this, I've received confirmation from one of the manufacturer's representatives who sought it directly from source that the new IGFS is identical to the old and there are no OBAs in it.
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JRSmit

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Re: archival properties - paper ink permanence info
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2014, 12:13:52 am »

Following up on this, I've received confirmation from one of the manufacturer's representatives who sought it directly from source that the new IGFS is identical to the old and there are no OBAs in it.
which is contradicting as the old had some OBA.
Curious to know then how the reflectance is achieved.

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