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Author Topic: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)  (Read 44340 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #140 on: November 21, 2014, 09:25:42 am »

still... iT'S NOT YOUR P-45 ON TEST!  ???

Simple, then just show us your S (typ 007) test images, free of artifacts where other cameras fail ...

Cheers,
Bart
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mjrichardson

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #141 on: November 21, 2014, 09:39:57 am »

I have a genuine question, is the only consideration for detail in a shot the pixel size? Are you saying that there is no difference between old ccd tech like the P45 and new cmos tech if the pixel sizes are the same? I don't understand Erik's test at all, I am quite happy not to get it though, it's important to him so as far as that is concerned it's entirely valid, what I don't understand is how it relates to the S 007.

If detail is the aim then are you guys saying that the only consideration is pixel size, not lenses, processor, processing or any other system considerations?
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #142 on: November 21, 2014, 09:43:08 am »

I really don't see how all this meanness on a product can be created... before the product ever appears, before anyone has tried it and before one ever knows the solutions it provides... Surely that level of nonsense, can't be an emotional reaction... it's purely a mean pre-decided attack based on ...nothing! ...LISTEN: "I tested (with my "rules") that tomato... hence the other vegetable ...will taste like meat"! ...what a conclusion!  ???  :o  ;D  :P

    Aristoteles have set the rules of logic based on some criteria (universally called "fundamentals") ...these criteria are now FUNDAMENTALLY accepted as "base of logic" world wide... The one that disagrees can always use therapy advise from a psychologist... Everything else (including "systemically" approval from "friends") is pure trolling... nothing more nothing less...  ;)
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2014, 09:48:01 am »

Simple, then just show us your S (typ 007) test images, free of artifacts where other cameras fail ...

Cheers,
Bart
Simple... just show us YOUR S(007) images... that does the same as P45 does! ...SEE? ...pure logic! ...your logic!  ;)
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #144 on: November 21, 2014, 10:20:11 am »

I've a sneaking suspicion that if She did exist she'd be a tad too busy to worry about a bunch of male measurebators.

LOL... Once upon the time, long way ago, I had the same argument with somebody (name doesn't matter - he is well know into photography forums as "Nikon guru") that had similar arguments on D4's resolution based on his D700 experience (and his "theory" behind it), because the camera (the D700 or the D3/S) is the most moire sensitive one out of all cameras or MFDBs past 1994 (inc. all Kodak 22mp sensor based MFDBs)... He ended up calling D4 a ..."crap", a "fake", a "nonsense" and all the names one can imagine before it ever appeared... just because his mind was "stuck"..., just because he is the same type of character now as he ever was.... Now, everybody that has used Nikon's (exclusive to them) 16mp sensor, agrees that is the best DSLR sensor around... some even say "by far"... But, he will never accept his barain being one of a "D^@khead" ...or he ever will!  ;)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #145 on: November 21, 2014, 10:21:15 am »

Simple... just show us YOUR S(007) images... that does the same as P45 does! ...SEE? ...pure logic! ...your logic!  ;)

I don't have an S (typ 007), do you?

I do have images which are free of the artifacts discussed (see attached). But since they were not taken with the camera under discussion (and because of the subject imaged) I hesitated to post any (because presenting factual warnings, and cats, are apparently frowned upon).

Cheers,
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #146 on: November 21, 2014, 10:34:28 am »

Hi,

We have noticed on Doug Peterson "library shots" that the IQ-250 produced less colour aliasing than the CCD-based backs. This may be attributed to the microlenses on the sensor, or something else. The SLT 99 rendition in my experiment was very similar to the P45+, except there was little colour aliasing.

What I essentially say is that for correct rendition it is necessary that the sensor outresolves the lens. Another way of saying this that MTF at pixel resolution needs to be low. In a paper published by Schneider I have seen the figure that MTF should be below 10%.

In most cases monochrome artefacts are not very visible and gapless microlenses may be good at reducing colour aliasing. How that works on the S the future may show. I have checked some raw files from the S2 shot during Lloyd Chambers testing and there was very significant colour aliasing.

Added:

Those shots with the S2 were taken with a CCD sensor that probably does not have microlenses. Increasing the fill factor (the sensitive area of the pixel) reduces aliases somewhat.

There is a lot of discussion about pixel sizes and the end of the megapixel race, but in the end it seems quite proven that smaller pixels improve reproduction of fine details.

Below is a good article by Ctein
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/02/why-80-megapixels-just-wont-be-enough.html

This article is interesting, too
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/02/d800-megapixels.html

Best regards
Erik


I have a genuine question, is the only consideration for detail in a shot the pixel size? Are you saying that there is no difference between old ccd tech like the P45 and new cmos tech if the pixel sizes are the same? I don't understand Erik's test at all, I am quite happy not to get it though, it's important to him so as far as that is concerned it's entirely valid, what I don't understand is how it relates to the S 007.

If detail is the aim then are you guys saying that the only consideration is pixel size, not lenses, processor, processing or any other system considerations?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 01:12:19 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #147 on: November 21, 2014, 10:35:43 am »

I don't have an S (typ 007), do you?

I do have images which are free of the artifacts discussed (see attached). But since they were not taken with the camera under discussion (and because of the subject imaged) I hesitated to post any (because presenting factual warnings, and cats, are apparently frowned upon).

Cheers,
Bart
Is this an answer to my reasoning? ...because according to logic rules it's not! ...My reasoning behind logic considerations that you have supported are specific... and thus one has to reply ON THEM ...not "beside" them! Has your cat being shot with a Leica S-007? ...What's the relevance of the cat into supporting "crap" theories of S-007 sensor being inferior to Sony's 50mp sensor then? ...please don't continue this insane logic! ...will you?  :D
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mjrichardson

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #148 on: November 21, 2014, 10:45:16 am »

Bart, was that shot from 3.8m away with a P45+? haha.

Small sections in isolation will never give the complete story, Eriks feather may be a tiny crop from a photograph of a stunningly beautiful woman in an incredible location and the feather or the detail has no baring on the image or it could be a picture of a feather in which case it's the wrong equipment and setup. Even after Eriks reply, I am still non the wiser as to how it relates to the camera in question.
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #149 on: November 21, 2014, 10:47:33 am »

Hi,

We have noticed on Doug Peterson "library shots" that the IQ-250 produced less colour aliasing than the CCD-based backs. This may be attributed to the microlenses on the sensor, or something else. The SLT 99 rendition in my experiment was very similar to the P45+, except there was little colour aliasing.

What I essentially say is that for correct rendition it is necessary that the sensor outresolves the lens. Another way of saying this that MTF at pixel resolution needs to be low. In a paper published by Schneider I have seen the figure that MTF should be below 10%.

In most cases monochrome artefacts are not very visible and gapless microlenses may be good at reducing colour aliasing. How that works on the S the future may show. I have checked some raw files from the S2 shot during Lloyd Chambers testing and there was very significant colour aliasing.

Best regards
Erik


Erik, please do remember that you are judging a non tested product by implying (questionable IMO) theories on it... This is outrageous for what a physician or an Engineer (excuse me for being one myself) would ever do! ...Experimentation of other for testing other is OUT OF THE QUESTION for science... the results are fundamentally laughed as being crap and out of consideration! ...as simple as that! ...and there is no sensible that will disagree with this! ...if he does, he is not worth considering as having a stable "mind state"... ask a psychiatrist if you don't trust me saying that this isn't A BASIC RULE for ...logic!
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #150 on: November 21, 2014, 11:24:38 am »

Even after Eriks reply, I am still non the wiser as to how it relates to the camera in question.

It's simple action->reaction. When people claim that the reason for Leica to not increase resolution is; because of better image quality, then someone (other than a fanboy) is bound to point out the fallacy of that explanation. Add to that that nobody who really knows will tell the real reason(s), and you have a recipe for a nice discussion.

Not that that will lead anywhere ..., until Leica releases the next (higher resolution) model, which then becomes the most logical 'deliberate' choice, and so on. It's AKA cognitive dissonance, when we give people the benefit of assuming they know what they are talking about to begin with.

Cheers,
Bart
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #151 on: November 21, 2014, 11:36:37 am »

It's simple action->reaction. When people claim that the reason for Leica to not increase resolution is; because of better image quality, then someone (other than a fanboy) is bound to point out the fallacy of that explanation. Add to that that nobody who really knows will tell the real reason(s), and you have a recipe for a nice discussion.

Not that that will lead anywhere ..., until Leica releases the next (higher resolution) model, which then becomes the most logical 'deliberate' choice, and so on. It's AKA cognitive dissonance, when we give people the benefit of assuming they know what they are talking about to begin with.

Cheers,
Bart
Yeap! ...but you still had an one side view before, by supporting Erik's (obvious) nonsense that referred to an a non existing product and was using (questionable) results of other product of ..."10 year's old past sentence", ....as applicable to a product  ...not yet announced! ...is that explainable by the cat you posted above? ...where is the logic behind all this nonsense?
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mjrichardson

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #152 on: November 21, 2014, 11:43:47 am »

Ha, I'm hardly a fan boy, I'm not pro anything, I'm just anti nonsensical proof for why a camera that hasn't been released cannot have increased image quality based on test done that have absolutely no relevance as far as I can see.

The technical side of photography is important but only when it makes sense, surely that's the point?
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #153 on: November 21, 2014, 11:55:36 am »

Ha, I'm hardly a fan boy, I'm not pro anything, I'm just anti nonsensical proof for why a camera that hasn't been released cannot have increased image quality based on test done that have absolutely no relevance as far as I can see.

The technical side of photography is important but only when it makes sense, surely that's the point?
Remember that this is Phamyia occupied forum, that KNOWS they are under very serious threat... and is trying to survive... They KNOW Hassy is going to be under Leica's control sooner or later... Sooo, Attracting as many customers as they can, ...NOW (!), is most important for them ...for the (possible) future (if there is going to be any...)!
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #154 on: November 21, 2014, 11:59:43 am »

Ha, I'm hardly a fan boy, I'm not pro anything, I'm just anti nonsensical proof for why a camera that hasn't been released cannot have increased image quality based on test done that have absolutely no relevance as far as I can see.

I don't think anybody said that the quality would not be improved over previous models with the same resolution, although the evidence is still out, yet I'm confident that the quality has improved (assuming they did their homework).

The OPs question/title of this thread asked why it was the same resolution (sampling density would be more accurately stated). A higher resolution would have made some other benefits possible (such as reduced risk of aliasing, and even higher resolution from the same excellent lenses). Time will tell.

Cheers,
Bart
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #155 on: November 21, 2014, 12:07:02 pm »

I don't think anybody said that the quality would not be improved over previous models with the same resolution, although the evidence is still out, yet I'm confident that the quality has improved (assuming they did their homework).

The OPs question/title of this thread asked why it was the same resolution (sampling density would be more accurately stated). A higher resolution would have made some other benefits possible (such as reduced risk of aliasing, and even higher resolution from the same excellent lenses). Time will tell.

Cheers,
Bart
Yet, no questions answered... or will ever be! One sets the wonder... and then no analysis on the subject being set... nice logic! ...all "according to the rules!"
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #156 on: November 21, 2014, 12:38:55 pm »

Oh please BC... don't make me laugh! ...does one has to have a ..."point" as to post in forums?  ;D ...LOL. Do you really think that all this BS posted against S-007 introduction and (inevitable) success... needs ("real") reasoning?  ...don't make me laugh ...please!

The man was clear... American reactors depend on Erik's reliability and he had FOUR M8's failing... so he trusts Erik the best he can if compared to Leica's engineers... Simple logic! ...Einstein's logic!  ;D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 12:45:19 pm by Theodoros »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #157 on: November 21, 2014, 01:06:13 pm »

Hi,

I have clearly stated it was 3.8 meter and Bart probably feels that I used to be totally honest. No lady involved in that picture in any way, unless the feather is coming from a female specimen of that bird.

I can give some background to that image. It begins with Harry Nyquist, a scientist who formulated the sampling theorem called after him. It says that details below the half the sampling rate can be reproduced correctly. If a signal contains significant amplitude above that frequency lower frequency images will result.

A very good demonstration of that is to shoot Bart van der Wolf's test target. The result will be something like this:


As you see the lines are converging to a certain limit, passing that they bend. The limit between straight and bending lines is the foretold Nyquist limit. If a lens throws high frequency detail on the sensor that sensor will show that high frequency as a lower frequency alias. This alias is usually colourful on Bayer sensor. So ideally, a lens would resolve at the Nyquist limit of the sensor, but pixel level contrast should be zero above the Nyquist limit.




The two images below illustrate this pretty well, I think. The upper one is shot with the Sony Alpha SLT 77. That camera has 3.8 micron pixels so Nyquist limit is 1000/3.8/2 131 lp/mm. The lens used here has around 3% MTF at 131 lp/mm. We still see some aliasing, and that is related to the Bayer filter as sampling frequencies for red and green are half of Nyquist.

The lower image is shot on a Hasselblad with a P45+ back. It has 6.8 micron pixels, which correspond to 73 lp/mm. At this frequency the Planar 80 lens used in this test transfers about 10% of contrast. Intense aliasing results.


Now, these cameras are different. The Sony is used with a Zeiss 16-80/3.5-4.5 lens and has in all probability an aliasing filter. The P45+ was used in this later test with a Planar 80/2.8 lens at f/5.6. The Planar is very sharp in the centre. The P45+ lacks an OLP-filter (AKA Anti-Aliasing filter). That AA filter is needed to supress MTF beyond the Nyquist limit. In general, most DSLRs have been using AA-filters while most MFD-s do not. The Mamiya ZD had an optional AA-filter costing around 3000 $US last time I checked.

On the P45+, aliasing is very obvious at f/11 but entirely gone at f/16. But, using f/16 reduces sharpness significantly, possibly to the same level I get from the 24 MP SLT at f/8.

Anyway, the way to avoid aliasing is to use small pixels or adding an OLP filter. For some reason unknown to me, MFD normally doesn't employ OLP filters.

On the other hand, we also can clearly see that sharp lenses transferring a lot of contrast are massive producers of aliasing.

The feather images were intended to investigate this phenomena, why:


  • My suggestion of aliasing as a result of combining excellent lenses with large pixels was contested by a well known photographer of birds.
  • I suspected that artificial detail could give the impression of fake resolution
  • The strains of the feather gives a clear clue of what is true or fake detail

I used three camera bodies in this test, those were what I had available to me. Of the three cameras the SLT99 is closest to the Leica S, same pixel size and using gapless microlenses.

My conclusion of this test were:

  • Small pixels are needed to avoid aliasing artefacts
  • OLP filtering and gapless microlenses are not enough to suppress monochrome aliasing
  • Small pixels and proper downsizing of the image give better reproduction than larger pixels

I would say that these findings are in line with basic image sampling theory and there is no magic changing it!

So, why don't photographers see this?

  • They don't care about real or fake detail, as long it looks good
  • The artefacts show up only when the equipment are optimally used. Small apertures, bad focus and camera shake can act as low pass filters eliminating aliasing.

Just to make it clear, I don't say that small sensor cameras give better reproduction than large sensor cameras. What I am saying that small pixels are needed for correct reproduction, especially when used in combination with inherently sharp lenses.

Very clearly, I don't think we have seen real world images from the Leica S. The micro-lenses may be helpful in reducing aliasing, that have been seen on the IQ-250 images published by Doug Peterson of DT. But those micro lenses will not cause a miracle to happen. I am 100% sure that smaller pixels are needed to make those Leica S lenses justice. At least if they are as good as they are said to be.

Best regards
Erik


Bart, was that shot from 3.8m away with a P45+? haha.

Small sections in isolation will never give the complete story, Eriks feather may be a tiny crop from a photograph of a stunningly beautiful woman in an incredible location and the feather or the detail has no baring on the image or it could be a picture of a feather in which case it's the wrong equipment and setup. Even after Eriks reply, I am still non the wiser as to how it relates to the camera in question.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 01:22:00 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #158 on: November 21, 2014, 01:19:57 pm »

Unbelievable! ...this guy (Erik) will do anything to avoid answering QUESTIONS posted to him and will post anything as to alter a subject!  ??? How is the weather Erik?  ;) What's the relevance of the above to Leica S 007?  >:(
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #159 on: November 21, 2014, 01:30:29 pm »

Erik,

This thread has been good for you as your photography is improving.

Much more interesting than those feathers.

Though just a thought, but I think the first image will make people a little dizzy.

If you sell this as a print, please warn the owners not to hang it near a staircase.

Can't wait to see the next session.

Keep it up.  

BC
Oh BC... can't you see that the man is a "different" kind of artist? He is posting to MF photography forums as to teach men on how to it... It's the "know how" he knows... What is our trivial photography when compared to nuclear reactors? ...It's "nuclear art" we are talking here! ...all well supported under logic!
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