Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)

[Chris Livsey]

Doing experiments is a learning experience…, curiosity is what makes mankind moving forward. Without curiosity we would still be sitting in caves, perhaps making great art…

Best regards
Erik

Erik it isn't curiosity it is being unreasonable, back to GBS:

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"

[synn]

I don't know if my photography is improved, I may even feel that there may be a degradation since I am shooting MFD.

I joined a workshop with Hans Kruse this year, and I think I learned a lot from that, although I was just shooting Sony with the Hasselblad staying at the hotel.

You know what Erik, I take all my previous recommendations back.

You should definitely sell off all the "inferior " MF gear that is totally holding you back.
Of course, once this is done, I assume you will no longer be interested in MF related discussions and will focus on enlightening the poor souls in some sony forum that don't know yet how good they have it.

One can only hope!

[eronald]

Are you sure they're allowed above the stairs?

So what's your point.

IMO

BC

J,

My point is that the tech process *is* all about repetitive tests and numbers and more tests, because it is often about isolating a factor.
Kind of like people expect that when you did an ad, all you did was get a girl dressed and took three shots of her smiling ... but in reality you had all that prep and tons of lights, and had to spend a day taking several hundred images etc.
Most people just look at the final ad. Here we are doing the equivalent of peeking in at the session.

I just got a Sennheiser wireless lav system for the GH4 yesterday, and spent 8 hours or so doing tests at various levels and with different mike placement. I went from horrible sound to usable sound. But if I hadn't done the tests, db setting by db setting, I'd probably have kept horrible sound in my work until the end of days or until someone experienced taught me the error of my ways. And I know that much better sound can still be coaxed from the same system, but if I were working alone I'd need a few days of tests to get there.

Edmund

[synn]

Using some feather shot made by on a P45 on vintage lenses to deduce what a Leica S can do with Leica lenses is like BC doing the styleboard for honey boo boo's mother and deducing how Kate Upton would look in the final images.

[eronald]

Using some feather shot made by on a P45 on vintage lenses to deduce what a Leica S can do with Leica lenses is like BC doing the styleboard for honey boo boo's mother and deducing how Kate Upton would look in the final images.

I agree Erik could get a nicer feather

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Synn,

I didn't say that my inferior MF gear is holding me back. What I say that I am not sure my photography is improved. Very clearly, I shoot MFD for sharpness and that advantage is clearly there. But, shooting MFD the way I do takes some time. I had a split vacation, one week in the Dolomites shooting from 4 AM to 10 PM with some lesson thrown in during the afternoon and got a lot of good images, but I was not shooting MFD. The week after I was shooting the same areas, but in daytime, both shooting MFD and 135 FF and even APS-C.

The images below are all from those two weeks of shooting, some P45+, some 135 FF and some APS-C.














I am no Sony fanboy, but that is the other equipment I have. Sometimes I feel frustrated with Sony. They were late in doing live view, which was a very big issue for me. They have still only one 36 MP body, one without electronic first curtain. But it seems evident that 46-54 MP cameras are around the corner. Sony perhaps
even releases a decent 85 mm lens, that would be interesting…

I could switch to Nikon and use the Otus lenses, but a switch like that would carry a cost tag similar to buying the Hasselblad. Also, in my view, with digital sensors having live view the flipping mirror is an anachronism. Sure professional DSLRs like Canon 1DX and Nikon D4 still have the best autofocus but manually focusing with live view is what suit my way of shooting best. Anyway, I am pretty sure both Nikon and Canon will go mirrorless within not so many years.

I am actually in no way against MFD, btw, otherwise I wouldn't shoot it. On the other hand I don't see MFD as a miracle cure either. I may also make the point that I am one of the very few photographers sharing raw images from MFD.

I did consider selling my MFD equipment, but only as a kit. I don't want to sit on a lot of pieces I cannot put on a tripod to shoot with. The main reason I considered selling was that I see 50 MP 135 coming my way and my bag is full. How much use will the 39 MP MFD see, with 50 MP in the backpack. Another point, I don't see used MFD prices go up.

Best regards
Erik

You know what Erik, I take all my previous recommendations back.

You should definitely sell off all the "inferior " MF gear that is totally holding you back.
Of course, once this is done, I assume you will no longer be interested in MF related discussions and will focus on enlightening the poor souls in some sony forum that don't know yet how good they have it.

One can only hope!

[tjv]

Well, 10 pages of posts and all of them littered with silly, snarky and personal insults.
For goodness sake people, if you don't like the someones opinion or what they have written, or if you feel the thread is going off track, post something intelligent instead of resorting to name calling or belittling someone. This kind of posting is what makes this forum a real drag compared to other more respectful and collegial forums. Perhaps it's time to put this tread to bed? 

[eronald]

Erik,

 Your demonstration of aliasing is textbook quality - really, it is so clear that I think it should be reprinted in textbooks for students.

 As for your photography, all I can say is "not bad" I would be glad to swap prints with you. By the way, I think it's about time we did another LL print swap.

 But when it comes to small pixels vs large pixels, MF  etc etc. I still think that the only way to figure out how good a sensor/lens combination is going to be is to test it - there seem to be a bunch of hidden non-textbook variables. Of course, in the long run theory will prevail.

Edmund


 

[ErikKaffehr]

Edmund,

I appreciate your kind comments.

Could you elaborate on your idea of print swap?

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

 Your demonstration of aliasing is textbook quality - really, it is so clear that I think it should be reprinted in textbooks for students.

 As for your photography, all I can say is "not bad" I would be glad to swap prints with you. By the way, I think it's about time we did another LL print swap.

 But when it comes to small pixels vs large pixels, MF  etc etc. I still think that the only way to figure out how good a sensor/lens combination is going to be is to test it - there seem to be a bunch of hidden non-textbook variables. Of course, in the long run theory will prevail.

Edmund


 

[telyt]

  But when it comes to small pixels vs large pixels, MF  etc etc. I still think that the only way to figure out how good a sensor/lens combination is going to be is to test it - there seem to be a bunch of hidden non-textbook variables. Of course, in the long run theory will prevail.

I agree, in the long run theory will prevail.  On the practical side, in addition to testing particular lens/sensor combinations a particular feather should also be specified   There's a lot of variation in feather structure and with some species and certain feather types aliasing artifacts are almost certain regardless of the lens, sensor and presence or absence of an AA filter.

[Torbjörn Tapani]

Is it an African or European feather?

[BernardLanguillier]

Is it an African or European feather?

Jesus, I did hesitate a few seconds...

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

Edmund,

I appreciate your kind comments.

Could you elaborate on your idea of print swap?

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik,

 I've done this once.
 We designate a responsible volunteer Mr. V, preferably one with access to corporate mail
 We each send the Mr. V  N prints (A3 or A4, like we decide) of some image we've chosen from our stock.
 Mr. V assembles N books of prints and sends N-1 out, keeping one.
 The prints arrive and we each enjoy the rare experience of holding a print that we didn't make ourselves
 
Edmund
 

[ndevlin]

This thread is starting to feel like Steven Segal's acting career.

[JV]

This thread is starting to feel like Steven Segal's acting career.

As in too long and without any highlights?

[voidshatter]

You know what Erik, I take all my previous recommendations back.

You should definitely sell off all the "inferior " MF gear that is totally holding you back.
Of course, once this is done, I assume you will no longer be interested in MF related discussions and will focus on enlightening the poor souls in some sony forum that don't know yet how good they have it.

One can only hope!

Erik was just trying to demonstrate that aliasing-suppression and detail-reproduction would have been better, if the Leica S007 were to stitch several A77 sensors into a larger one (with smaller pixels), rather than stitching the M240 (with larger pixels). He wasn't trying to to prove that the A77 offers superior image quality than the Leica S007.

[voidshatter]

Well, 10 pages of posts and all of them littered with silly, snarky and personal insults.
For goodness sake people, if you don't like the someones opinion or what they have written, or if you feel the thread is going off track, post something intelligent instead of resorting to name calling or belittling someone. This kind of posting is what makes this forum a real drag compared to other more respectful and collegial forums. Perhaps it's time to put this tread to bed? 

Common forum debates: If you can't counter a discussion that your photographic gear is inferior on technical grounds, then just point out that the skills / artistic accomplishments of the photographer is far more important by attacking the opponent's pictures.

I didn't know Erik when I first came here and his posts annoyed me when he pointed out my mistakes directly, but I have to say that his analysis is objective, logical and trustworthy to me.

[Ken R]

This thread is starting to feel like Steven Segal's acting career.

Jajaja. Well, I actually enjoy Segal's flicks. They are entertaining. This thread OTOH....