Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JV on November 14, 2014, 11:08:13 pm

Title: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 14, 2014, 11:08:13 pm
Quite informative article IMO on the upcoming Leica S Typ 007:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: gebseng on November 15, 2014, 06:24:42 am
Wow, he says that their cmos sensor has virtually no color shift and no crosstalk. Would be great to have that in a digital back in a view cam ...

Best,

Gebhard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 15, 2014, 07:01:28 am
Hi,

Yes I agree. On the other hand, it makes little sense on a DSLR.

Best regards
Erik

Wow, he says that their cmos sensor has virtually no color shift and no crosstalk. Would be great to have that in a digital back in a view cam ...

Best,

Gebhard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 15, 2014, 07:11:48 am
Belgian technology, French fab, german micro lenses and specs, who said Europeans can't work together? ;)

Speaking about the sensor of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: mjrichardson on November 15, 2014, 07:34:17 am
Why do you think it makes little sense on a DSLR Erik? The Leica has a tilt shift lens in the lineup and also is compatible with the Sinar P series, it seems like having a sensor with no colour shift or cross talk is exactly what is needed, unless I'm missing something from the technical/engineering side of things?

Mat



Hi,

Yes I agree. On the other hand, it makes little sense on a DSLR.

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 15, 2014, 08:03:03 am
Hi Mat,

What you miss, is that distance between the exit pupil and the sensor is in all probability large because there needs to be place for the mirror.

On a camera without mirror that often is used with symmetrical lenses with exit pupil close to the sensor it makes sense to optimize the sensor for the large beam angles that may result, but much less so on an SLR. With SLR lenses there is simply no issue.

Tilting the lens may cause a problem, but again, SLR lenses used to have limited tilts. Indeed, Canon and Nikon T&S lenses work well on digital sensors, including the IQ-250.

So, the design of the CMOSIS sensor solves a problem on M-series Leicas and possibly studio type of cameras if Leica will make a sensor for Sinar. But that problem is simply not there with DSLRs.

The downside is really that competition is now at 50-80 MP, while the S-series is limited to 37.5 MP. The combination of sharp lenses and large pixels is also prone to moiré. Whenever you get moiré, colour or monochrome, it is a clear indication that the lens outresolves the sensor - showing fake detail instead of true detail.

Best regards
Erik



Why do you think it makes little sense on a DSLR Erik? The Leica has a tilt shift lens in the lineup and also is compatible with the Sinar P series, it seems like having a sensor with no colour shift or cross talk is exactly what is needed, unless I'm missing something from the technical/engineering side of things?

Mat



Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 15, 2014, 08:11:55 am
The downside is really that competition is now at 50-80 MP, while the S-series is limited to 37.5 MP.

It is a conscious decision from Leica and for me personally this is a plus... I want to keep the versatility of being able to shoot handheld...



Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 15, 2014, 09:35:59 am
The only current sensors for serious photography (FF and above) that use less than 6μm is the FF cameras of 36mp that use the Sony sensor of that resolution, the new 33x44mm Sony MF sensor and Dalsa 80mp sensor used on Leaf & P1 backs... 6 microns seems to be "perfect" for use in various different formats, from FF, up to FFMF... I believe that Leica (along with Cmosis) are working on a very serious project, that will be based on 6micron size, that will perform excellent at various sensitivities, will have extreme DR and will provide a common design base for sizes from 24x36mm up to 40.5x54mm that will be friendly even with Sinar cameras most extreme movements when using WAs...
I would expect both Leica to announce a new improved version of their FF 24mp Cmos sensor (which is exactly the same pixel pitch as the new Cmos 37.5mm S-sensor) and Sinar to announce a new MFDB with CMos sensor (and MS technology included) along or near the S-007 sales begin next spring...

I also believe that 99.99% of possible users choosing between either using Leica's 37.5mp or Sony's 50mp.... resolution will be the last that will affect their consideration... In fact, I believe more pros will think of Leica's lower resolution as a benefit rather than "disadvantage" as some suggest...

Additionally, I believe that on technical matters, engineers of Leica or Cmosis or Sony ...know more than "forum Einsteins of crap"!  ;)  ???

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: buckshot on November 15, 2014, 09:43:14 am
Why is Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007) ...

... so they can sell you a 50MP version in 2017!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 15, 2014, 09:51:31 am
Why is Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007) ...

... so they can sell you a 50MP version in 2017!
As they did with their CCD sensor eeeh? Which they keep constant to the same resolution from its introduction on....  :P
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: bcooter on November 15, 2014, 10:00:39 am
As they did with their CCD sensor eeeh? Which they keep constant to the same resolution from its introduction on....  :P

I agree.   

Leica has always played to a different clientele.

Les techno babble, latest and greatest, more this is how we make cameras . . . if you like them cool, if you don't . . . cool.

I know the S2 I have is he best built camera I own.   It's very well thought out and more workhorse than bling.  Use one and notice the way the battery and the usb connects and you'll get it.

IMO

BC


Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: mjrichardson on November 15, 2014, 10:48:58 am
Haha, I thought there'd be some technical reason I'd miss or rather not be interested in.

Now as a photographer, I am happy for Leica to go the way they are going, the S 006 has been in my hands for 4 days and it is easily the most straight forward camera I have ever used, I am throwing it at everything, commercial shoots alongside my Nikons and personal stuff and without fail, the S has dealt with everything. I haven't had it long enough to understand it fully and know how it reacts in every situation but as someone who prints large with my own printer in my own studio, there is nothing lacking resolution wise for my work. If the new S handles and produces files in the same way but with better high ISO performance then it's going to be difficult to find fault with it, regardless of the not-necessary technology!

Anyway, my practical experiences of using the equipment is in no way a match for your excellent theory so I will let you get on with it.

Have a nice evening!

Mat



Hi Mat,

What you miss, is that distance between the exit pupil and the sensor is in all probability large because there needs to be place for the mirror.

On a camera without mirror that often is used with symmetrical lenses with exit pupil close to the sensor it makes sense to optimize the sensor for the large beam angles that may result, but much less so on an SLR. With SLR lenses there is simply no issue.

Tilting the lens may cause a problem, but again, SLR lenses used to have limited tilts. Indeed, Canon and Nikon T&S lenses work well on digital sensors, including the IQ-250.

So, the design of the CMOSIS sensor solves a problem on M-series Leicas and possibly studio type of cameras if Leica will make a sensor for Sinar. But that problem is simply not there with DSLRs.

The downside is really that competition is now at 50-80 MP, while the S-series is limited to 37.5 MP. The combination of sharp lenses and large pixels is also prone to moiré. Whenever you get moiré, colour or monochrome, it is a clear indication that the lens outresolves the sensor - showing fake detail instead of true detail.

Best regards
Erik



Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: tjv on November 15, 2014, 04:30:48 pm
While this is an interesting read, it's pretty much an exercise in marketing. For one, many of the features listed for the 006 / 007 are also true for other systems. As for the "no sensor vignetting, no color shifts" statement, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the M240 detect the lens used (either using the optical sensor on the lens mount or by manually inputting it) and apply some corrections to the RAW file? The sensor might be better than others at handling no retrofocus lenses, but saying there is zero sensor vignetting or color shifts might be an overstatement? I've demoed the S system three times now and, despite the 3x2 ratio sensor, I think it's the best integrated DMF (just) system on offer. Personally though, I will only buy the system when it has a plus 60mpx sensor as I'd want to crop to 4x3 or 4x5 aspect ratios and need to print large.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 15, 2014, 04:48:05 pm
I also believe that 99.99% of possible users choosing between either using Leica's 37.5mp or Sony's 50mp.... resolution will be the last that will affect their consideration... In fact, I believe more pros will think of Leica's lower resolution as a benefit rather than "disadvantage" as some suggest...

It could be argued that Leica and the companies using Sony sensors (MF or FF) have made the exact same choice, which is to re-use a proven sensor technology/architecture (used in the M240/a7r) and scale that technology to a larger sensor keeping everything else pretty much the same.

Looking at it from that angle, comparing the "pixels" of the sensor used in the a7r and those of the M240 pretty tells us everything we need to know, doesn't it?

My personal view is that the key strength of the S system is the lenses so have a sensor which performs as well as the competition is enough to deliver overall a very appealing proposition from a performance standpoint (leaving price aside).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Jim Kasson on November 15, 2014, 05:00:19 pm
It could be argued that Leica and the companies using Sony sensors (MF or FF) have made the exact same choice, which is to re-use a proven sensor technology/architecture (used in the M240/D810) and scale that technology to a larger sensor keeping everything else pretty much the same.

Let's hope they don't port over the raw black point algorithm that produces the M240 "green shadows" problem.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6717

Jim
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 15, 2014, 05:21:30 pm
It could be argued that Leica and the companies using Sony sensors (MF or FF) have made the exact same choice, which is to re-use a proven sensor technology/architecture (used in the M240/D810) and scale that technology to a larger sensor keeping everything else pretty much the same.

Looking at it from that angle, comparing the "pixels" of the sensor used in the D810 and those of the M240 pretty tells us everything we need to know, doesn't it?

My personal view is that the key strength of the S system is the lenses so have a sensor which performs as well as the competition is enough to deliver overall a very appealing proposition from a performance standpoint (leaving price aside).

Cheers,
Bernard

The Sony 50mp sensor doesn't have the same pixel pitch as the D810 sensor... it's 10% larger... I don't see how comparing M240 with D810 tells us anything... M240 is optimised for "street" while D810 for tripod use... S 007 will obviously be optimised for the same applications as Sony's 50mp sensor.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 15, 2014, 05:37:12 pm
Personally, I believe that Sony's 50mp analysis was THE FIRST pre decided requirement of the design... They didn't design the sensor for optimum performance and let the resolution to whatever it comes to (either more or less) but they did whatever best they could for that pre decided resolution... Why do I believe that the above is correct? Simply because there was no other resolution choice as to fit the sensor in Leaf, Phase One or Hasselblad line...  Think about it... 40mp 33x44 was already occupied by the "entrance" models and 60mp or more by the FF market of CCD sensors...

Then the sensor HAD TO BE of 44x33mm because of Pentax....
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 15, 2014, 06:29:49 pm
Ok, the pixels of Sony 50mp may be a little better than those of the a7r. I don't believe it makes a big difference, it is the same technology.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on November 15, 2014, 07:05:08 pm
Interesting to note that again the advances in sensor tech comes from the mobile side. Copper and a 0.09 micron process with shallow wells. A little behind Samsung but ahead of the others for now.
Title: Re:
Post by: Jim Kasson on November 15, 2014, 07:13:40 pm
Interesting to note that again the advances in sensor tech comes from the mobile side. Copper and a 0.09 micron process with shallow wells. A little behind Samsung but ahead of the others for now.

Sensors are a different world from regular CMOS. There, 90 nanometer features are a decade old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_nanometer

Here's a mobile sensor built with a 65nm process:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20140828005224/en/Himax-Imaging-Chooses-TowerJazz-Panasonic-Semiconductor%E2%80%99s-State#.VGfvKcmZGO4

Jim
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on November 15, 2014, 07:32:22 pm
Just reading the article

" Some of the technology that went into the sensor came from CMOSIS’s experience in making 1.75 micron mobile phone camera chips and using extremely fine structures to maximize the already small photosensitive areas on those tiny sensors. One such tactic was utilizing copper to construct the conductive pathways (wires) in the sensor. "

So yes, mobile tech is far ahead. Samsung is at 65 nm with the nx1.
Title: Re:
Post by: Theodoros on November 16, 2014, 11:47:58 am
Just reading the article

" Some of the technology that went into the sensor came from CMOSIS’s experience in making 1.75 micron mobile phone camera chips and using extremely fine structures to maximize the already small photosensitive areas on those tiny sensors. One such tactic was utilizing copper to construct the conductive pathways (wires) in the sensor. "

So yes, mobile tech is far ahead. Samsung is at 65 nm with the nx1.

Does Samsung make MF photography sensors that Leica or Hassy or P1 may buy and use?  :'(  Pitty we miss all that cell phone quality!
Title: Re:
Post by: Chris Livsey on November 16, 2014, 12:11:17 pm
One such tactic was utilizing copper to construct the conductive pathways (wires) in the sensor. "

Using copper to conduct electricity, who'd have thought, whatever will they come up with next  ;D
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 16, 2014, 06:16:27 pm
+1... LOL... They are smart, aren't they?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Jim Kasson on November 16, 2014, 07:01:55 pm
+1... LOL... They are smart, aren't they?

Aw, c'mon, guys. Going from Al to Cu interconnects wasn't easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_interconnect

Jim
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 16, 2014, 07:04:25 pm
Aw, c'mon, guys. Going from Al to Cu interconnects wasn't easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_interconnect

Jim
Ι use silver for the (TAD) tweeters (only for that) of my horn speakers!  ;)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: hjulenissen on November 17, 2014, 02:28:54 am
It is a conscious decision from Leica and for me personally this is a plus... I want to keep the versatility of being able to shoot handheld...
A 50 MP camera will not only be equally able to be shot hand-held, it will also offer a level of details that is at least as good as the 37MP camera *).

-h

*)Assuming all-else equal
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Chris Livsey on November 17, 2014, 02:37:09 am
Aw, c'mon, guys. Going from Al to Cu interconnects wasn't easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_interconnect

Jim

Apparently not ,not my field so shouldn't poke fun but the link says "The improvement in conductivity in going from earlier aluminium to copper based conductors was modest". I suppose modest gains are enough, like increasing pixel counts incrementally, for marketing purposes. Cynics hat on today.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: peterv on November 17, 2014, 03:34:34 am
A 50 MP camera will not only be equally able to be shot hand-held, it will also offer a level of details that is at least as good as the 37MP camera *).

-h

*)Assuming all-else equal

Hi, than what do you make of Ming Thein's assumption/theory that "less pixels might actually produce a perceptually sharper/ crisper image for a given reproduction size, providing that this size is reasonable for the amount of resolution you’ve got in the smaller image."

It seems to me that Mr. Thein makes some valid practical points.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

BTW, I understand that a camera system's MTF will benefit from more MP's, but I think that Leica chose wisely, given the tech that is available to them at the moment.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 17, 2014, 04:22:43 am
Hi, than what do you make of Ming Thein's assumption/theory that "less pixels might actually produce a perceptually sharper/ crisper image for a given reproduction size, providing that this size is reasonable for the amount of resolution you’ve got in the smaller image."

It seems to me that Mr. Thein makes some valid practical points.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

BTW, I understand that a camera system's MTF will benefit from more MP's, but I think that Leica chose wisely, given the tech that is available to them at the moment.

Hi,

I disagree with Ming Thein's opinion. His assumptions are probably based on his experience with poor quality tools for down-sampling  and sharpening. Good down-sampling will avoid the generation of some of the artifacts he mentions, and proper sharpening only benefits from having more pixels to work on.

Having fewer pixels will limit the larger output capabilities, while having more pixels does not limit smaller output capabilities.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 17, 2014, 04:34:54 am
Apparently not ,not my field so shouldn't poke fun but the link says "The improvement in conductivity in going from earlier aluminium to copper based conductors was modest". I suppose modest gains are enough, like increasing pixel counts incrementally, for marketing purposes. Cynics hat on today.

The gain in conductivity is said to be modest. That doesn't mean that the net gain in output quality is not significant. Lower power requirements also lead to lower heat generation, and/or faster circuits, and may lead to lower needs for amplification. The new fabrication techniques that had to be developed may also lead the way to other materials being used.

This is not an incremental marketing opportunity, it is real technological progress.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: eronald on November 17, 2014, 06:37:01 am
The gain in conductivity is said to be modest. That doesn't mean that the net gain in output quality is not significant. Lower power requirements also lead to lower heat generation, and/or faster circuits, and may lead to lower needs for amplification. The new fabrication techniques that had to be developed may also lead the way to other materials being used.

This is not an incremental marketing opportunity, it is real technological progress.

Cheers,
Bart

AFAIK copper has been one of the *major* breakthroughs in high-speed IC tech, kind of like when we photographers went from CCD to CMOS :)

But that doesn't necessarily mean either change is significant for photography ....

Edmund
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: hjulenissen on November 17, 2014, 08:20:34 am
Hi, than what do you make of Ming Thein's assumption/theory that "less pixels might actually produce a perceptually sharper/ crisper image for a given reproduction size, providing that this size is reasonable for the amount of resolution you’ve got in the smaller image."

It seems to me that Mr. Thein makes some valid practical points.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

BTW, I understand that a camera system's MTF will benefit from more MP's, but I think that Leica chose wisely, given the tech that is available to them at the moment.
He lost me in the first sentence: "And I define a good result as one which the image is critically sharp at 100% actual-pixels view". That is not a "valid practical point". That is a theoretical view removing oneself from why (most of us) are using cameras in the first place.

If my old 8MP crop DSLR was "better" according to some theory than a state-of-the-art Nikon D800 due to having (possibly) sharper pixels, would images be better? If theory and practice contradicts, then that would make it a bad theory (at least applied to this particular problem).
Quote
Since 36 doesn’t divide cleanly into 24 – you get 1.5 old pixels per new one – there’s always going to be some guesswork as to precisely how that half pixel is allocated. And depending on the algorithm, any one of the following might happen – blur edges; stairstep artefacts; haloes or abrupt transitions; odd discontinuities in diagonal lines.
I don't think that this is a good description of how image scaling works. Yes, there are trade-offs, but "guesswork" is a bad choice of words. Assuming that the camera is a "Nyquistian sampler" (the more blurry images are at pixel level, the more true that approximation is) and that there is no camera noise (which is of course only an approximation), there really is not guesswork, the 2-dimensional (3 if we include color) continous "waveform" is really uniquely known, reproducible at any scale.

I would rather stress that a higher-resolution camera would have more scene-related information at its disposal (provided that total noise is not increased by shrinking sensels). Having more information can not be a bad thing (as long as it comes at zero cost, which is of course not true), and you can always reduce the amount of information later if need be.


There are many _practical_ reasons to avoid excessive resolution. It tends to add to storage, processing cost. It tends to reduce frame-rate. It might cause compromises in sensor/electronics that affects aspects of image quality negatively. I tend to believe that most of these reasons tends towards "less of a problem" as capacity of digital circuits and storage increase with time. There is also the question of what kind of lenses/technique is needed to fill that bandwidth with real information (as opposed to blur), and what print size/distance/eyesight is needed to appreciate the added info.

-h
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 17, 2014, 09:17:04 am
A 50 MP camera will not only be equally able to be shot hand-held, it will also offer a level of details that is at least as good as the 37MP camera *).

-h

*)Assuming all-else equal

I have never shot with a 50MP camera but based upon my experience with the P30+ and the Leica S2 I probably would not feel very comfortable going above 40MP handheld.

Obviously only my opinion and likely to be different from person to person.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Ken R on November 17, 2014, 10:03:30 am
I have never shot with a 50MP camera but based upon my experience with the P30+ and the Leica S2 I probably would not feel very comfortable going above 40MP handheld.

Obviously only my opinion and likely to be different from person to person.


I shoot handheld all the time with my IQ160 (60mp) on the H1 w/80mm lens. 1/200 sec is most times enough for sharp images with that lens.

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 17, 2014, 12:21:02 pm
I have never shot with a 50MP camera but based upon my experience with the P30+ and the Leica S2 I probably would not feel very comfortable going above 40MP handheld.

Obviously only my opinion and likely to be different from person to person.

It depends on the shutter speed (greatly helped by a smart Auto ISO implementation), accuracy of focus, high(er) ISO image quality and quality of mirror damping/shutter shock.

To give you one example, I have never had as many tack sharp images (when reviewed at 100% on screen) hand held with a camera before the D810, especially when using live view.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: peterv on November 17, 2014, 12:59:20 pm
I actually need at least 1/360-1/500 to be safe on my S2 with the 120mm, but I'm not particularly good at holding the camera steady. The other day I took some shots at 1/1000 with the same lens and going through the files at pixel level, I could see that some were tack-sharp while some others still showed a bit motion blur. I guess it all depends on the circumstances, that is why I always shoot a few extra for safety, if possible with static subjects. I don't think going from 37,5 to 50 MP would make much difference for me in this regard.

I'm really curious to see what the IQ of the S new sensor is going to be like compared to the 24x36 and 33x44 Sony sensors.

Thanks Bart and hjulenissen for the eleborate answer to my question.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Joe Towner on November 17, 2014, 01:12:16 pm
Hand held shooting is all about shutter speed, when it's fast enough, you're fine, all the way up to 80mp.  This is where the higher iso performance of the newer chips comes into play - shoot at ISO400+ and you're not breaking out the tripod as much.

Where it gets interesting is how the IS in the new Pentax 645 lenses does - 28-45/f4.5 and 90/f2.8 macro both have it, saying ~3.5 stops of IS.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 17, 2014, 02:14:37 pm
Hi,

I have done some experiments on this:

The image below was taken on a Phase One P45+ using a Sonnar 150/4 at f/8 at 3.8m subject is a feather from a seabird I picked up close to my office. The Sonnar 150/4 is one of the best lenses for classic Hasselblad. The sensor has 6.8 micron pixels.
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_a.png)

If you inspect the image closely you see that it has a lot of fake detail. It has hatched pattern that doesn't correspond to the natural strains. The image below is the same shot, enlarged twice for easier viewing:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_a_large.png)

I also photographed the same subject from the same tripod position, still using a 150 mm lens with a Sony Alpha 77 SLT, a camera with 3.8 micron pixels. The resulting image is shown below (at actual pixels, that is not enlarged):
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_na.png)
It is pretty clear, in my humble opinion, that the 3.8 micron image is much cleaner.

Finally I reduced the 3.8 micron image to approximatively the same size as the 6.8 micron image from the P45+. The 3.8 micron image is still much clearer.

(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_a.png)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_na_small.png)
A 3.8 micron sensor of 45x30 mm size would have 93.5 MP. I would say that the above samples show that 93MP would have very clear benefits over 37MP. These samples were made with a 30 years or so old design from Zeiss and 70-400/4-5.6G zoom lens from Sony. The gain would be even more impressive on the Leica that is said to have some of the best designed lenses for medium format.

Best regards
Erik



Hi, than what do you make of Ming Thein's assumption/theory that "less pixels might actually produce a perceptually sharper/ crisper image for a given reproduction size, providing that this size is reasonable for the amount of resolution you’ve got in the smaller image."

It seems to me that Mr. Thein makes some valid practical points.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

BTW, I understand that a camera system's MTF will benefit from more MP's, but I think that Leica chose wisely, given the tech that is available to them at the moment.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: peterv on November 17, 2014, 02:49:26 pm
Erik, thanks for showing these examples, again. They make quite clear that a future S (or any future camera, for that matter) would benifit from more sensels/resolving power. A 93,5 MP Leica S would be quite interesting for landscape, architecture and such.

Why Leica chose a 37,5 MP sensor for the new S, I don't know and I guess it will probably be enough resolution for most applications. I have a feeling that this is the best they can do at the moment, given the technology that is available to them at this point.

There are quite a few S photographers who'd have wanted more resolution, though. Maybe at PK'16 when CMOSIS have developed further, we'll see a 'high res' S to complement the 'high ISO' S.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 17, 2014, 03:25:09 pm
Hi,

I don't know why Leica doesn't push forward with smaller pixel pitch. The way I see it, Leica has chosen to develop a sensor suited for the M-series with many symmetrical lens designs have large beam angles. That kind of lens is not used on DSLRs, which need to have room for a moving mirror.

Fact is that DSLR makers don't move very fast either. 24 MP technology has been around in APS-C for something like three years, but we still don't have the 54 MP sensors that 'simple' upscaling of those sensors to 24x36 would yield.

I think there are some reasons for this. One is that development cycles for sensors are probably much longer than commonly believed. The sensors we see now may have been in development for perhaps three years. A powerhouse like Sony may have several generation of sensors in interleaved development. Leica probably cannot do the same.

Taking care of all data needs processing power, that may also be more available for large companies.

A final factor may be that large pixels may show high edge contrast. My sample shows that a higher resolved image can give a better image, but a very well resolved image may be quite a bit soft at actual pixels.

As a final note. The Leica/CMOSIS sensor may be a good fit for technical cameras, especially with older lenses. The later generation of Rodenstock HR lenses have retrofocus designs and lower beam angles. Leica owns Sinar now, they may consider going into the digital back business. But still I feel that 37.5 MP puts them behind the competition as 60 MP IQ-260s seem to be quite popular on technical cameras.

Best regards
Erik


Erik, thanks for showing these examples, again. They make quite clear that a future S (or any future camera, for that matter) would benifit from more sensels/resolving power. A 93,5 MP Leica S would be quite interesting for landscape, architecture and such.

Why Leica chose a 37,5 MP sensor for the new S, I don't know and I guess it will probably be enough resolution for most applications. I have a feeling that this is the best they can do at the moment, given the technology that is available to them at this point.

There are quite a few S photographers who'd have wanted more resolution, though. Maybe at PK'16 when CMOSIS have developed further, we'll see a 'high res' S to complement the 'high ISO' S.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ndevlin on November 17, 2014, 07:21:09 pm
They kept it at 37MPs because their fabricator could not make a (much) higher resolution chip that met their other quality criteria  and the marketing department said, "well then make it exactly 37.5 'cause we can sell that better alongside the CCD sensor and not obsolete the 006 so obviously/badly."

The rest is smoke and mirrors.  Those lenses would cut up a 50 or 60 MP sensor.

- N.  

ps.  they claim it will have "What promises to be best high ISO performance in MFD".  I'd lay real money that the 645z kicks its ass. And not by a little, either .  Nothing in CMOSIS's performance to date suggests their chip tech rivals Sony's in any way.  But time will tell.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 17, 2014, 10:58:53 pm
ps.  they claim it will have "What promises to be best high ISO performance in MFD".  I'd lay real money that the 645z kicks its ass. And not by a little, either .  Nothing in CMOSIS's performance to date suggests their chip tech rivals Sony's in any way.  But time will tell.

Be careful Nick, some people have been called Sony/... fanboys for a lot less than that! ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 17, 2014, 11:06:00 pm
ps.  they claim it will have "What promises to be best high ISO performance in MFD".  I'd lay real money that the 645z kicks its ass. And not by a little, either .  Nothing in CMOSIS's performance to date suggests their chip tech rivals Sony's in any way.  But time will tell.

I actually could not find this claim anywhere on the Leica website...

Given that David Farkas is sometimes on this forum it would be nice if he could explain why he put that or why he believes that.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 18, 2014, 02:46:02 am
Hi,

Lot of bad information in the article:


The Leica-S wideangles are clearly telecentric designs. So the writing below is just desinformation.
Quote
The result is that there is no sensor vignetting, no color shifts and no loss of sharpness in the corners. It’s easy to put this theory to the test. Take a Leica 18mm Super Elmar-M ASPH lens. Put it on the M 240 and take a shot. Then, mount the same lens on a Sony A7r. Yeah…. Oh and just to see that the advantage isn’t only at extremes, try a 35mm Summilux ASPH next. The Sony sensor in the A7r just isn’t adept at handling non-retrofocus lenses, with non-telecentric designs.
Clearly a sensor designed for large beam angles would make sense on technical cameras. But I guess that technical camera shooters prefer larger sensors and more megapixels, making better use of their lenses.

The 79dB quoted in the article would correspond to 13.1 EV, clearly better than the 12.34EV measured by DxO on the Leica M (240), but I guess 13.1 EV is possible on that sensor. Latest generation 135 FF sensors seem to be around 13.6 EV. Now, 13.1 EV is clearly between 13 and 14 EV, as mentioned in the article. But it is essentially 13 EV and quite a bit from 14 EV, not a lie, but pretty close!

I would agree that it is probable that the Pentax 645Z is a better high ISO performer than the Leica S (Typ 007).

I don't have anything against Leica, but I don't like desinformation.

Best regards
Erik


They kept it at 37MPs because their fabricator could not make a (much) higher resolution chip that met their other quality criteria  and the marketing department said, "well then make it exactly 37.5 'cause we can sell that better alongside the CCD sensor and not obsolete the 006 so obviously/badly."

The rest is smoke and mirrors.  Those lenses would cut up a 50 or 60 MP sensor.

- N.  

ps.  they claim it will have "What promises to be best high ISO performance in MFD".  I'd lay real money that the 645z kicks its ass. And not by a little, either .  Nothing in CMOSIS's performance to date suggests their chip tech rivals Sony's in any way.  But time will tell.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Manoli on November 18, 2014, 03:58:49 am
If S photographers bought the S when they wanted or needed more resolution then they bought the wrong camera. If they bought into the S system in the hope that a higher resolution camera was around the corner then they need their heads examining.

Likewise, if Leica designed and built the lenses for the S with the intention that those lenses would never need to resolve anything more than a 37.5MP sensor, they too needed their heads examined.

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Manoli on November 18, 2014, 04:02:24 am
Simple answer to the title of this thread is 'faute-de-mieux'. They didn't have another option.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: peterv on November 18, 2014, 06:36:15 am
If S photographers bought the S when they wanted or needed more resolution then they bought the wrong camera. If they bought into the S system in the hope that a higher resolution camera was around the corner then they need their heads examining.

Though it wouldn't be abnormal these days to expect higher density sensors to become available for a system at some point in the future, because that's were most of the industry has been going the past ten, fifteen years. No guarantees, of course, but not unreasonable to anticipate.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Ken R on November 18, 2014, 07:12:49 am
I liked the Leica write up about its new sensor. Cool to see they are using a state of the art sensor in their new S which is a superb SLR platform (those who have not used it should check it out). 37.5 MP provides a good balance between resolution and file size. For people work it is enough. Might be lacking a bit for wide angle landscapes compared to say the 60-80 MP backs otherwise, specially considering how good the Leica S lenses are, one should not feel the need for more res.

I prefer the platform interchangeability of my PhaseOne digital back (and the robust FW800 tethering) but if I were looking for an integrated solution the Leica S would be my choice.  From what ive seen Leica is a good company to deal with as well. (im sure there are disgruntled customers here just like with any company).

Once the new Leica S is in people's hands and one can get some RAW files then we will be able to really see how good the sensor is.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: dfarkas on November 18, 2014, 10:20:02 am
I actually could not find this claim anywhere on the Leica website...

Given that David Farkas is sometimes on this forum it would be nice if he could explain why he put that or why he believes that.
Sure, I'll chime in.

The information in my article is from my discussions at Photokina with the S product managers and Dr. Zimmer, the head of R&D at Leica. Leica engineers tend to be conservative by nature, so I was intrigued by the boldness of this claim. When I pressed the issue further, they said that the sensor team at Leica had been running tests comparing the first batch of chips from CMOSIS to the Sony 50MP sensor, which they have in house for testing.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: dfarkas on November 18, 2014, 10:46:03 am
Hi,

Lot of bad information in the article:


Erik,

I'm sorry you feel my information isn't accurate. All the facts, figures and reasoning came directly from my conversations with engineers at Leica who are directly responsible for the work with CMOSIS designing the chip. Interestingly, you are the only person to take issue with my write-up since it has been posted a few weeks ago, but I am happy to address your specific issues.

Quote

The Leica-S wideangles are clearly telecentric designs. So the writing below is just desinformation.Clearly a sensor designed for large beam angles would make sense on technical cameras. But I guess that technical camera shooters prefer larger sensors and more megapixels, making better use of their lenses.


You are absolutely correct. The S lenses are telecentric designs, but the snippet of text you quoted from my article only talks about M lenses on an M240 and using those same lenses on a Sony A7r. I didn't make mention of the S lenses.

I think it would be interesting to explore in further detail just how telecentric the S lenses (or other MFDSLR lenses) actually are. Sure, I'd imagine a 180mm to be close to 100% telecentric, but perhaps an ultra-wide like the 24mm might not be totally telecentric.
 
Quote

The 79dB quoted in the article would correspond to 13.1 EV, clearly better than the 12.34EV measured by DxO on the Leica M (240), but I guess 13.1 EV is possible on that sensor. Latest generation 135 FF sensors seem to be around 13.6 EV. Now, 13.1 EV is clearly between 13 and 14 EV, as mentioned in the article. But it is essentially 13 EV and quite a bit from 14 EV, not a lie, but pretty close!


In my article I said "around 79db" as the early testing samples Leica received from CMOSIS were from the first wafer. Dr. Zimmer seemed to be hinting at slightly better performance when the sensor goes into full production. Likewise, there are other factors in the imaging pipeline that contribute to overall system DR. The range of 13 to 14 stops is a reasonable estimate based on current testing and knowledge of future optimization.

Quote


I would agree that it is probable that the Pentax 645Z is a better high ISO performer than the Leica S (Typ 007).


We will have to see when real-life comparisons can be made. I'm as anxious as you to see the results.

Quote

I don't have anything against Leica, but I don't like desinformation.


Agreed. I don't like disinformation either. That's why I fact check and speak directly to the source.


David
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 18, 2014, 12:48:39 pm
Hi David,

Sorry for using incorrect nomenclature. Calling the lenses telecentric is probably a mixup. But fact is that the issues you discuss are related to the M-lenses and not to the S-lenses. Many lenses are symmetric designs, they are popular as they offer very good image quality with a relative simple construction. Symmetric wide angle lenses have a large disadventage, however, they cannot be used SLR cameras as they don't allow for the mirror box.

Normal lenses for SLR-s often symmetric, a construction called "double gauss". This doesn't work with SLRs however, so a new solution to wide angles has been invented, probably by Angénieux, who called this design retrofocus. Another name for the same construction is inverted telephoto. The design increases the distance between the exit pupil and the focal plane. The retrofocus/inverted telephoto design is often referred to as telecentric, but I feel it is a missnormer.

All DSLR wide angles are essentially retrofocus type lenses, and this design is necessitated by the mirror box. Zeiss calls this design Distagon.

Now, retrofocus, inverted telephoto or Distagon type lenses have some advantages
But, they also have disadvantages

Symmetric lenses are more compact but they have some issues, especially with digital sensors

Later generation of wide angles for the M are slightly retrofocus designs, as there was a need to make space for exposure meter cell of the Leica M5.

I would suggest that you check the information above with any knowledgable optical engineer.

Now, Leica has a problem with lenses that are not designed for electronic sensor. The made several design choices:
But, nothing of the above applies to the Leica-S series as it is a DSLR, and SLR cameras cannot use lenses with large beam angles because they need room for the mirror. So, for the Leica-S all the discussion of beam angles is totally irrelevant. Talking about the Sony A7r is also totally irrelevant as it is clearly intended to be used with lenses designed for it, even if it works perfectly well lenses designed for SLRs.

Getting back to the DR question. 79 dB is stated. You can convert dB to EV by dividing by 6.02. Now 79 dB is 13.12 EV, I would'n call that 13 to 14 EV, about 13 EV would be a truthful statement. Nikon D750 has a DR of 13.73EV while the Leica M (240) has 12.34 EV, which indicative of the CMOS lagging modern Sony developed sensors a bit. It is possible that the design have been improved, but the stated 79 db is 13.12 EV. The DR is coming from the sensor and it is not related to the processing pipeline, although it seems that some manipulation may be quite frequent.

As you see, claiming advantages of the CMOSIS sensors on the Leica-S is clearly irrelevant. On the other hand the CMOSIS sensor is probably very benefitial for the classic M lenses. But classic M-lenses cannot be used on the Leica-S.

These are the reasons I strongly suggest that the article has a lot of bad information. Clearly, it is not your fault, it seems quite clear that you got that information from Leica marketing.

Some good reading here:

http://toothwalker.org/optics/vignetting.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angénieux_retrofocus
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/03/the-development-of-wide-angle-lenses
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/sensor-stack-thickness-when-does-it-matter

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

I'm sorry you feel my information isn't accurate. All the facts, figures and reasoning came directly from my conversations with engineers at Leica who are directly responsible for the work with CMOSIS designing the chip. Interestingly, you are the only person to take issue with my write-up since it has been posted a few weeks ago, but I am happy to address your specific issues.

You are absolutely correct. The S lenses are telecentric designs, but the snippet of text you quoted from my article only talks about M lenses on an M240 and using those same lenses on a Sony A7r. I didn't make mention of the S lenses.

I think it would be interesting to explore in further detail just how telecentric the S lenses (or other MFDSLR lenses) actually are. Sure, I'd imagine a 180mm to be close to 100% telecentric, but perhaps an ultra-wide like the 24mm might not be totally telecentric.
 
In my article I said "around 79db" as the early testing samples Leica received from CMOSIS were from the first wafer. Dr. Zimmer seemed to be hinting at slightly better performance when the sensor goes into full production. Likewise, there are other factors in the imaging pipeline that contribute to overall system DR. The range of 13 to 14 stops is a reasonable estimate based on current testing and knowledge of future optimization.

We will have to see when real-life comparisons can be made. I'm as anxious as you to see the results.

Agreed. I don't like disinformation either. That's why I fact check and speak directly to the source.


David

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: dfarkas on November 18, 2014, 02:07:57 pm
Erik,

Yes, I'm quite familiar with symmetric vs. retrofocus lens designs. The fact is that retrofocus lens designs are not 100% telecentric, especially for wide-angles. The light rays are still projecting from the exit pupil and radiate outward, creating an angle less than 90 degrees (perpendicular) relative to the sensor at any spot other than the very center. The angle decreases (relative to the sensor surface) towards the edges of the sensor. This is why Leica has employed offset microlenses on all of their DSLR bodies (DMR, S2 and S 006) to date, in order to more fully capture oblique angles of light at the periphery of the sensor. The new, shallower pixel well design of the MAX CMOS chip combined with Leica's parabolic cone-shaped microlenses now means this isn't necessary. Here's an excerpt from Leica's S2 brochure for reference:

Quote

In the Leica S2, a grid of microlenses on the sensor increases its sensitivity to light. The distinctive feature here is that the greater the distance of individual pixels from the centre of the sensor, the greater the relative offset of the microlenses. This compensates for the fact that image sensors are less sensitive to obliquely arriving rays of light at the edges, and that no lens can guarantee that incoming light rays are exclusively perpendicular to the sensor surface. The offset microlens solution was planned into the S-System concept from the beginning and is a feature that ensures that all Leica S-Lenses are practically free of vignetting.


Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 18, 2014, 02:33:50 pm
Hi,

The excerpt talks about offset microlenses.

All lenses have some significant vignetting, although retrofocus designs may be a bit closer to cosinus^3 than cosinus^4.

Quite obviously, retrofocus lenses reduce the beam angle and don't eliminate it.

Here is a neat review of the Leaf Credo 50 http://www.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/51985-leaf-credo-50-review-guy-mancuso.html
And here is Doug Petersons Library Test of the IQ250: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/51985-leaf-credo-50-review-guy-mancuso.html

Both test include extreme wide angles with significant shifts on 50MP backs using Sony sensors.

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

Yes, I'm quite familiar with symmetric vs. retrofocus lens designs. The fact is that retrofocus lens designs are not 100% telecentric, especially for wide-angles. The light rays are still projecting from the exit pupil and radiate outward, creating an angle less than 90 degrees (perpendicular) relative to the sensor at any spot other than the very center. The angle decreases (relative to the sensor surface) towards the edges of the sensor. This is why Leica has employed offset microlenses on all of their DSLR bodies (DMR, S2 and S 006) to date, in order to more fully capture oblique angles of light at the periphery of the sensor. The new, shallower pixel well design of the MAX CMOS chip combined with Leica's parabolic cone-shaped microlenses now means this isn't necessary. Here's an excerpt from Leica's S2 brochure for reference:


Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: dfarkas on November 18, 2014, 03:12:00 pm
The excerpt talks about offset microlenses.


Yes, as I wrote above, Leica currently uses offset microlenses in the S Typ 006 to prevent sensor vignetting for oblique angles of light. The new CMOSIS chip in the S Typ 007 will not require offset microlenses as the combination of shallow pixel well depth and conical microlenses will be just as, or perhaps more, effective.

Quote
Quite obviously, retrofocus lenses reduce the beam angle and don't eliminate it.

Exactly. Leica's approach is to prevent sensor vignetting via an optical solution on the sensor.

Quote
Here is a neat review of the Leaf Credo 50 http://www.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/51985-leaf-credo-50-review-guy-mancuso.html
And here is Doug Petersons Library Test of the IQ250: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/51985-leaf-credo-50-review-guy-mancuso.html

Both test include extreme wide angles with significant shifts on 50MP backs using Sony sensors.

Yes, and those significant shifts resulted in very visible vignetting and required capturing and applying an LCC correction in Capture One. This is a software approach. Leica's approach is through sensor and lens design. Just a different solution as the shifted images in the linked review are very nice after LCC application and post processing. Even though this is part of many tech camera users' workflow, I'm sure if given the choice, most would prefer to just take a single shot without the need for an LCC capture and additional PP work.



Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 18, 2014, 03:24:29 pm
Hi David,

I am looking forward to raw images from the 24mm lens shifted 10 mm on the Leica-S and with the DNG file not containing information on correcting vignetting.

Best regards
Erik


Yes, as I wrote above, Leica currently uses offset microlenses in the S Typ 006 to prevent sensor vignetting for oblique angles of light. The new CMOSIS chip in the S Typ 007 will not require offset microlenses as the combination of shallow pixel well depth and conical microlenses will be just as, or perhaps more, effective.

Exactly. Leica's approach is to prevent sensor vignetting via an optical solution on the sensor.

Yes, and those significant shifts resulted in very visible vignetting and required capturing and applying an LCC correction in Capture One. This is a software approach. Leica's approach is through sensor and lens design. Just a different solution as the shifted images in the linked review are very nice after LCC application and post processing. Even though this is part of many tech camera users' workflow, I'm sure if given the choice, most would prefer to just take a single shot without the need for an LCC capture and additional PP work.




Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: eronald on November 18, 2014, 06:52:20 pm
Erik,

 In the Leica Cappucino there is some coffee, some milk and a LOT of foam. The experience can still be positive although the price does not reflect the contents.

Edmund
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BJL on November 18, 2014, 08:08:48 pm
I have never shot with a 50MP camera but based upon my experience with the P30+ and the Leica S2 I probably would not feel very comfortable going above 40MP handheld.
So when you have to shoot handheld with a > 40 MP camera, downsample to a resolution level that you are comfortable with --- and when you have the opportunity to use a tripod (or a high enough shutter speed), you can make use of the extra resolution.  With suitable processing, higher pixel counts is a "win-no lose" situation as far as the sharpness/resolution/detail of the final product is concerned.

Also, as has already been said in milder terms, describing interpolation or downsampling algorithms as "guesswork" is a sign of unscientific thinking, or even anti-scientific denialist bluster.  I see no examples of how images downsampled to a given pixel count are less sharp than ones from a sensor of that lower pixel count.

On the other hand, I can believe that Leica has reasonably decided that the minor benefits of an increased pixel count are not worth the substantial extra cost of having its very small sensor design partner CMOSIS design a new, smaller CMOS cell (and Leica designing new microlenses) and the trade-offs like lower frame rates that would go with it; Leica is aiming somewhat for DSLR style hand-held usage more than the traditional tripod oriented MF working mode.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BJL on November 18, 2014, 08:41:08 pm
They kept it at 37MPs because their fabricator could not make a (much) higher resolution chip rivals Sony's in any way ...
I basically agree, except that I think the hard part would be the design of a new, smaller, high quality pixel cell and its integration into a column-parallel ADC CMOS sendor design by CMOSIS, rather than the manufacture by the CMOS chip fab. to which CMOSIS and Leica outsource that task. It seems that sensors can use far less that state-of-the-art fab. technology, as the feature sizes are so much larger than needed for recent microprocessors, memory chips, and so on.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 12:09:27 am
Edmund

Yes, absolutely.

Erik

Erik,

 In the Leica Cappucino there is some coffee, some milk and a LOT of foam. The experience can still be positive although the price does not reflect the contents.

Edmund
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: KAHA on November 19, 2014, 02:14:06 am
Hi David you are one cool cat in my book,

 cheers  8)

Erik,

I'm sorry you feel my information isn't accurate. All the facts, figures and reasoning came directly from my conversations with engineers at Leica who are directly responsible for the work with CMOSIS designing the chip. Interestingly, you are the only person to take issue with my write-up since it has been posted a few weeks ago, but I am happy to address your specific issues.

You are absolutely correct. The S lenses are telecentric designs, but the snippet of text you quoted from my article only talks about M lenses on an M240 and using those same lenses on a Sony A7r. I didn't make mention of the S lenses.

I think it would be interesting to explore in further detail just how telecentric the S lenses (or other MFDSLR lenses) actually are. Sure, I'd imagine a 180mm to be close to 100% telecentric, but perhaps an ultra-wide like the 24mm might not be totally telecentric.
 
In my article I said "around 79db" as the early testing samples Leica received from CMOSIS were from the first wafer. Dr. Zimmer seemed to be hinting at slightly better performance when the sensor goes into full production. Likewise, there are other factors in the imaging pipeline that contribute to overall system DR. The range of 13 to 14 stops is a reasonable estimate based on current testing and knowledge of future optimization.

We will have to see when real-life comparisons can be made. I'm as anxious as you to see the results.

Agreed. I don't like disinformation either. That's why I fact check and speak directly to the source.


David

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: paratom on November 19, 2014, 07:18:06 am
From the practical side I find the Leica S System a joy to use.
Size, user Interface and Feeling are much more DSLR like than any other digital medium Format Resolution.
The lenses seem to be very solid Performers where you can just use each f-stop without having to worry about IQ.
And I have very good experience with AF-accurancy. Out of my 6 lenses  I have not had to get any lens adjusted.
I assume many S users are pretty fine with 36MP without doubting some would like to have even more MP.
So when judging the System and the amount of "foam" one should take into account the whole package and not just the sensor.
At Photokina I handled a Pentax 645z (which would be my choice if I couldnt afford the S-System) just to realize how much I like the handling of the S.
So I wonder how many photographers would like to have/take Advantage of more then 36MP and what would be the typical application?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 19, 2014, 07:22:25 am
Hi David you are one cool cat in my book,

 cheers  8)


+1.  Thanks for replying David. 
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: hjulenissen on November 19, 2014, 07:53:09 am
Erik,

 In the Leica Cappucino there is some coffee, some milk and a LOT of foam. The experience can still be positive although the price does not reflect the contents.

Edmund
So does one attribute the success of a Cappucino to the amount of coffeine that one gets, or to the amount of happiness that it contributes to your life (e.g. by having nice figures in the foam)? :-)

-h
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ndevlin on November 19, 2014, 08:30:51 am

To recap:

The S2 is a really nice camera. :) The S2 CMOS will be a really nice as well.  :) It won't have more megapixels.  People who like megapixels are sad.  >:(   It will be better in low light than the CCD S2.   ;D Some think it will be better than the Sony chip as weaponized by Pentax. :o  Others think there is little reason to believe this is true.  :-\  Some people know a lot about numbers and fancy technical words.  ??? Others could care less.  :P Very few of either of them could possibly afford the new S2 :'( The only way to know what will happen in the future, is to get there.  8)

- N.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Ken R on November 19, 2014, 09:37:19 am
To recap:

The S2 is a really nice camera. :) The S2 CMOS will be a really nice as well.  :) It won't have more megapixels.  People who like megapixels are sad.  >:(   It will be better in low light than the CCD S2.   ;D Some think it will be better than the Sony chip as weaponized by Pentax. :o  Others think there is little reason to believe this is true.  :-\  Some people know a lot about numbers and fancy technical words.  ??? Others could care less.  :P Very few of either of them could possibly afford the new S2 :'( The only way to know what will happen in the future, is to get there.  8)

- N.

There is one big issue though. The lenses. No one that I know uses a digital camera without a lens. The Leica S lens line is Superb from the 24mm to the 180mm. They really get every bit of detail out of the sensor. Plus you can use Contax 645, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645 and Pentax 6x7 lenses.

With the Pentax 645z you can use Pentax 645 lenses and also I think you can adapt Hasselblad V lenses. Thats it.

Leica designed the Leica S with a very short Flange Focal Distance which makes adapting many lenses possible. The Pentax 645 mount unfortunately has a very large FFD of about 71mm only bested by the Hassy V and the P67 mounts.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Carl Glover on November 19, 2014, 11:09:32 am
If Leica ever get round to doing an adapter for Rollei MF lenses I'd buy an S2 in a flash!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Ken R on November 19, 2014, 11:29:30 am
If Leica ever get round to doing an adapter for Rollei MF lenses I'd buy an S2 in a flash!

That would be easy. The Rollei 6x6 mount has a long enough flange focal distance.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 19, 2014, 11:36:52 am
If Leica ever get round to doing an adapter for Rollei MF lenses I'd buy an S2 in a flash!

Given that Leica owns Sinar now I am actually very surprised that it has not yet happened.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 19, 2014, 12:14:09 pm
To recap:

     Very few of either of them could possibly afford the new S2 :'( The only way to know what will happen in the future, is to get there.  8)

- N.
I think many underestimate the success that S-007 will have... There are many reasons for that (surely to happen) success... 1. Is the fact that many will consider to abandon their DSLR system all together because the camera has exactly the same size and flexibility as a DSLR... If one has a DSLR system based on high quality lenses, selling it should support much of the cost... 2. The people that currently use both DSLR and MF... they can use their MF lenses on the S (H & C645 users particularly so) and invest the difference on an S while having the same lenses for both... Restricting the ...bag size while improving quality at the same time is so very tempting for everyone. 3. People of all 1&2 that want to invest on a new back ...may as well buy them selves a camera. 4. (this is a huge market) ...With the expected high-Iso performance, there will be LOTS of "wedding photographers" that will want to differentiate themselves from the "crowed" of "wedding photographers"... which will invest (the difference of their huge DSLR system) on the camera, expecting more prestige (and thus more customers) as well as more fame (even more customers) out of their investment... I'm sure that all the above reasoning will provide the S-007 a brilliant future... (and tears to competition)! ...and none of the above will give a dime for 38 or 50 resolution, or feathers shot with P45 in comparison to DSLR, or notes or ...theories of man that know better than Leitz engineers!  ;)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: daure on November 19, 2014, 02:18:15 pm
There is one big issue though. The lenses. No one that I know uses a digital camera without a lens. The Leica S lens line is Superb from the 24mm to the 180mm. They really get every bit of detail out of the sensor. Plus you can use Contax 645, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645 and Pentax 6x7 lenses.
I am very happy to use Pentax 645 lenses too
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: tjv on November 19, 2014, 02:34:26 pm
Although I'd like more resolution and think the S system is the best in town – save the fact I couldn't use it on my Techno and the 3x2 ratio – the biggest thing against it is price, pure and simple. To think otherwise is to kid ourselves. If the 007 were priced at the level of the S-E, then the system might start to get traction. In the meantime, it'll be an aspirational product for many, even if it might be the best tool for the job for them. This is all just my opinion of course, written in a country where the average wage before tax wouldn't even buy you an 007 and 70mm lens.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 02:34:57 pm
Hi,

I would say that Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 may be an attractive alternative or the Alpa FPS, depending on needs, of course.

http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/rolleiflex-slr/rolleiflex-hy6-mod2.html
http://www.alpa.ch/products/lenses/macro-tilt-swing/apla-lens-adapter-rolleiflex-600x-hy6-sinar-hy6-leaf-afi.html

Best regards
Erik



If Leica ever get round to doing an adapter for Rollei MF lenses I'd buy an S2 in a flash!
Title: Those feather shots…
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 02:43:45 pm
Hi,

It seems that some posters believe marketing rather than their eyes. The feather shots demonstrate the difference between 6.8 micron and 3.8 micron sensor:

(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_a_large.png)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_na.png)

If you prefer the image on the left, buy a 39 MP back like the P45+ or the Leica S2. In case you prefer the image on the right wait for a 150 MP digital back.
Both images shot a 3.8 m with comparable lenses at 150 mm. The significant difference is the sensor, 6.8 vs 3.8 micron pitch.


Simple, isn't it?

More information here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik

I think many underestimate the success that S-007 will have... There are many reasons for that (surely to happen) success... 1. Is the fact that many will consider to abandon their DSLR system all together because the camera has exactly the same size and flexibility as a DSLR... If one has a DSLR system based on high quality lenses, selling it should support much of the cost... 2. The people that currently use both DSLR and MF... they can use their MF lenses on the S (H & C645 users particularly so) and invest the difference on an S while having the same lenses for both... Restricting the ...bag size while improving quality at the same time is so very tempting for everyone. 3. People of all 1&2 that want to invest on a new back ...may as well buy them selves a camera. 4. (this is a huge market) ...With the expected high-Iso performance, there will be LOTS of "wedding photographers" that will want to differentiate themselves from the "crowed" of "wedding photographers"... which will invest (the difference of their huge DSLR system) on the camera, expecting more prestige (and thus more customers) as well as more fame (even more customers) out of their investment... I'm sure that all the above reasoning will provide the S-007 a brilliant future... (and tears to competition)! ...and none of the above will give a dime for 38 or 50 resolution, or feathers shot with P45 in comparison to DSLR, or notes or ...theories of man that know better than Leitz engineers!  ;)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: bcooter on November 19, 2014, 03:10:45 pm
Pretty photos Erik, though next time you see moire on the screen, pull back a few inches . . . it'll disappear.


IMO

BC
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 03:38:07 pm
Hi BC,

It is a 3.8 meters. I guess you mean pull back a few meters…

Actually, I started out at 80 mm focal length (at 3.8 m) but decided to use 150 mm. The effects were quite clear in both cases, but the 150 mm shot was more obvious. Anyway, I see very much the same issues with 80 mm and 150 mm at 3.8m distance, so I am pretty (read 100%) sure these results are relevant.

If I am shooting at f/16 almost all aliasing disappears, but so does much of the detail.

Obviously, some subjects are more tolerant. Shooting a subject like this shows a clear difference in fake and true detail, as everyone knows what a feather looks like. Just as an example, eyelashes in a portrait shoot are a bit different, I don't think many people have real world association with eye lashes having heavy makeup in real world situations.

IMO

Best regards
Erik





Pretty photos Erik, though next time you see moire on the screen, pull back a few inches . . . it'll disappear.


IMO

BC
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 19, 2014, 03:44:42 pm
Hi BC,

It is a 3.8 meters. I guess you mean pull back a few meters…

Actually, I started out at 80 mm focal length (at 3.8 m) but decided to use 150 mm. The effects were quite clear in both cases, but the 150 mm shot was more obvious. I am pretty (read 100%) sure these results are relevant.

If I am shooting at f/16 almost all aliasing disappears, but so does much of the detail.

Obviously, some subjects are more tolerant. Shooting a subject like this shows a clear difference in fake and true detail, as everyone knows what a feather looks like.

IMO

Best regards
Erik





what I seriously don't understand ...is what all this "science" of "apples against "oranges" has to do with Leica S-007...????  Which I believe (unless I've read wrong) is the subject....
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Ken R on November 19, 2014, 03:45:25 pm
Erik, you keep posting those cropped in feather pics out of context. Show each frame as taken or at least explain that the feather on the left represents a MUCH smaller percentage of the frame so even though it was made with a rig with more megapixels. In the image on the right you are putting much more pixels on the feather itself. (same focal length, much less angle of view on a smaller sensor). Duh, 150 MP would be awesome and virtually eliminate moire. (no need to do a test to be convinced of this).

At any rate, let's talk about the Leica S...
Title: Re: Those feather shots…
Post by: paratom on November 19, 2014, 03:56:50 pm
Hi,

It seems that some posters believe marketing rather than their eyes. The feather shots demonstrate the difference between 6.8 micron and 3.8 micron sensor:

(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_a_large.png)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_na.png)

If you prefer the image on the left, buy a 39 MP back like the P45+ or the Leica S2. In case you prefer the image on the right wait for a 150 MP digital back.
Both images shot a 3.8 m with comparable lenses at 150 mm. The significant difference is the sensor, 6.8 vs 3.8 micron pitch.


Simple, isn't it?

More information here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik,
I am sure it is simple to take a better image of a feather with the S.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 03:58:37 pm
Sir,

Very much indeed! The Leica has large pixels, around 6 microns and sharp lenses. So it will render as the image on the left. Would Leica opt for smaller pixels it would render as on the right.

So, if you prefer rendition on the left buy a Leica S-007. If you prefer rendition to the right wait for an MFD with 150 MP. If you cannot wait for an MFD with 150 MP buy one with 80 MP.

If you cannot wait for a 150 MP MFDB and don't want to spend 40k$ US for an 80 MP one, buy a Nikon D810 for 3k $US and pretend to be happy.

I don't see any problem, do you?

Best regards
Erik

what I seriously don't understand ...is what all this "science" of "apples against "oranges" has to do with Leica S-007...????  Which I believe (unless I've read wrong) is the subject....
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: paratom on November 19, 2014, 04:02:08 pm
Sir,

Very much indeed! The Leica has large pixels, around 6 microns and sharp lenses. So it will render as the image on the left. Would Leica opt for smaller pixels it would render as on the right.

So, if you prefer rendition on the left buy a Leica S-007. If you prefer rendition to the right wait for an MFD with 150 MP. If you cannot wait for an MFD with 150 MP buy one with 80 MP.

If you cannot wait for a 150 MP MFDB and don't want to spend 40k$ US for an 80 MP one, buy a Nikon D810 for 3k $US and pretend to be happy.

I don't see any problem, do you?

Best regards
Erik


It seems the image on the right is taken with an A77. So are you telling us one can achieve better IQ with an A77 vs the S?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 04:05:55 pm
Hi Ken

You may consider reading the article, posted here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

The fact is that those images are taken from same tripod position at 150 mm focal length. They show the advantage of small pixels, neither more or less.

Use a 150 MP pixel MFD sensor and you will see the same benefits!

Best regards
Erik


Erik, you keep posting those cropped in feather pics out of context. Show each frame as taken or at least explain that the feather on the left represents a MUCH smaller percentage of the frame so even though it was made with a rig with more megapixels. In the image on the right you are putting much more pixels on the feather itself. (same focal length, much less angle of view on a smaller sensor). Duh, 150 MP would be awesome and virtually eliminate moire. (no need to do a test to be convinced of this).

At any rate, let's talk about the Leica S...
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 19, 2014, 04:11:18 pm
Sir,

Very much indeed! The Leica has large pixels, around 6 microns and sharp lenses. So it will render as the image on the left. Would Leica opt for smaller pixels it would render as on the right.

So, if you prefer rendition on the left buy a Leica S-007. If you prefer rendition to the right wait for an MFD with 150 MP. If you cannot wait for an MFD with 150 MP buy one with 80 MP.

If you cannot wait for a 150 MP MFDB and don't want to spend 40k$ US for an 80 MP one, buy a Nikon D810 for 3k $US and pretend to be happy.

I don't see any problem, do you?

Best regards
Erik

Soooo... what you are basically saying... is that CMOS sensor of other technology and with micro lenses, will behave the same as CCD sensor of previous technology with NO micro lenses... ...and you expect people to take your "testing" seriously as "how many pixels Leica should choose for its sensor" ...because you know better... is that right?  ;D
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 04:16:03 pm
Hi,

With 150 mm lens at 3.8 meter distance, definitively so! Based on P45+, that is!

But, the relevant way to interpret the images is that they show the difference between  37 MP sensor and a 90 MP sensor. It essentially shows what you would gain  with a 90 MP sensor on that Leica S2 vs. the present 37 Mp sensor.

In my view, a 90 MP sensor on the Leica S2 would yield widely superior results to the present 37 MP sensor, and these images are the best representations I can get. Please don't forget, these are real world images under real world conditions. The lenses used here are Sonnar 150/4 at f/8 and Sony 70-400/4-5.6G at f/8, both at 3.8m and at f/8 on P45+ (6.8 micron pitch) and Sony SLT 77 (3.8 micron pitch).

The sample is intended to demonstrate the resolution advantage of small pixels. The test does not in any way say that a small sensor APS-C camera would be superior to an MFD have larger pixels. What it demonstrates is that smaller pixels give better image quality than larger pixels at low ISO settings.

I would just love to demonstrate these effects on a 80MP to 150 MP MFD back if anyone would be nice enough to burrow me one.


Best regards
Erik


It seems the image on the right is taken with an A77. So are you telling us one can achieve better IQ with an A77 vs the S?

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 19, 2014, 04:29:05 pm


In my view, a 90 MP sensor on the Leica S2 would yield widely superior results to the present 37 MP sensor.

Best regards
Erik


I trust you'll apply for Leica's chief engineer... will you Erick? ...you've proven their current engineers "stupid" alright... it'll be "sitting ducks" for you if you do...
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 04:32:19 pm
Hi,

Lets put it this way, I know basic physics and can tell apart BS from reality, OK?

Best regards
Erik

Soooo... what you are basically saying... is that CMOS sensor of other technology and with micro lenses, will behave the same as CCD sensor of previous technology with NO micro lenses... ...and you expect people to take your "testing" seriously as "how many pixels Leica should choose for its sensor" ...because you know better... is that right?  ;D
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 19, 2014, 04:36:03 pm
Hi,

Lets put it this way, I know basic physics and can tell apart BS from reality, OK?

Best regards
Erik

Soooo, Leica is BS ...right? ..they don't know basic physics to your "Einstein" level... right?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 04:39:24 pm
Hi,

It is not me making stupid statements…

Regarding the Leica engineers, I don't know. Their statements don't really match physics and they are talking about products that are not in the market yet.

To me it sounds like quite a bit of snake oil, but some day they may post some usable images, like DNG files you know… than we ca  do some real world comparisons.

Best regards
Erik

Soooo, Leica is BS ...right? ..they don't know basic physics to your "Einstein" level... right?

Just to say, basic physics has nothing to do with relativity (Einstein stuff), it used to be high school stuff in my time. But I am an old man, almost 59.


I trust you'll apply for Leica's chief engineer... will you Erick? ...you've proven their current engineers "stupid" alright... it'll be "sitting ducks" for you if you do...
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 19, 2014, 04:40:32 pm
Hi,

It is not me making stupid statements…

Regarding the Leica engineers, I don't know. Their statements don't really match physics and they are talking about products that are not in the market yet.

To me it sounds like quite a bit of snake oil, but some day they may post some usable images, like DNG files you know… than we ca  do some real world comparisons.

Best regards
Erik

Soooo, Leica is BS ...right? ..they don't know basic physics to your "Einstein" level... right?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 19, 2014, 04:53:47 pm
But I am an old man, almost 59.


Is that why you don't apply for a major company chief engineer Erik? ...Is Lula all your retirement interest? ...don't you care as to "teach" Leica on how they can improve their sensor analysis decisions?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 05:04:08 pm
Hi Theodoros,

I am quite happy with my job in reactor physics. I am working in training operators of power plants and not in a marketing department of any company. I have still eight years to retirement, BTW.

If you want to find out more you may look for me on Linked In, OK?

Best regards
Erik

Is that why you don't apply for a major company chief engineer Erik? ...Is Lula all your retirement interest? ...don't you care as to "teach" Leica on how they can improve their sensor analysis decisions?

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 19, 2014, 05:05:49 pm
Hi Theodoros,

I am quite happy with my job in reactor physics. I am working in training operators of power plants and not in a marketing department of any company.

If you want to find out more you may look for me on Linked In, OK?

Best regards
Erik

But you do know more than Leica engineers ...right? It's just that you have a better job than they can offer you if you apply to them, that keeps you from "teaching" them... right?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 05:15:14 pm
Hi,

It depends, if the BS they publish is all they know it is obviously the case. The rest, I don't know.

You know, you can just reproduce any experiment I have done and prove me wrong, have you ever tried that?! How hard can it be? Shoot a feather at medium aperture at 150 mm f/8 using any decent lens at 3.8m with decent focusing using an MFD and a high resolution APS-C camera and publish the results.

You can of course substitute the feather for any object with fine details.

Best regards
Erik



But you do know more than Leica engineers ...right?

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Ken R on November 19, 2014, 05:50:18 pm
Hi,

It depends, if the BS they publish is all they know it is obviously the case. The rest, I don't know.

You know, you can just reproduce any experiment I have done and prove me wrong, have you ever tried that?! How hard can it be? Shoot a feather at medium aperture at 150 mm f/8 using any decent lens at 3.8m with decent focusing using an MFD and a high resolution APS-C camera and publish the results.

You can of course substitute the feather for any object with fine details.

Best regards
Erik




Erik. Why would one do that when the result is quite obvious. Put more pixels on a target and of course the target will look better. That is all you did by using a 150mm lens on a smaller format. Given equal composition / framing the P45+ will render the feather better.

Post after post of this tech talk scares away photographers looking for answers from other photographers who actually use the gear to make photographs.

Have you at least handled a Leica S and a few lenses?

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 06:14:59 pm
Hi Ken,

Now I have not. I am only talking about image quality. Some aspects of image quality are measurable/observable, some may be more subtle.

What I say is that the Leica S needs more pixels to match the rendition capability of their lenses. With the large pixels they produce artefacts in lieu of details. My samples illustrate it in a way. Try to do a similar shoot with a P25 and an IQ-280 and you will see a similar result.More pixels on target are good.

I don't think a discussion like this scares away potential Leica buyers, but may give some thoughts on choice of equipment before investment. There are plenty of options around from 24 MP full frame 135 up to 80 MP MFD from Phase One and Leaf, but also including the Sony based 50 MP options like the Phase One IQ-150/IQ-250, Leaf Credo 50 and Hasselblad backs.

Personally, I shoot with 24MP Sonys and a P45+ back on a Hasselblad 555ELD, my experience is based on that. The P45+ ant 39 MP is not that far from the S2 at 37.5 MP, although the S2 has somewhat smaller pixels. The S2 has probably better lenses which would exaggerate any aliasing artefacts compared to my images. Better lenses need higher resolution.

Personally I like Leica, but I don't think that gives them an artistic license to spread information of dubious value. Putting things in perspective never harms.

Best regards
Erik


Have you at least handled a Leica S and a few lenses?


Title: Re: Those feather shots…
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 06:47:05 pm
Hi,

Can you substantiate? Why?


My take is that a better lens would give higher edge contrast, but would not improve rendition as it is most limited by pixel level artefacts on the P45+ image.

Best regards
Erik
Hi Erik,
I am sure it is simple to take a better image of a feather with the S.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: synn on November 19, 2014, 06:57:36 pm
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition feather picture!!!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 19, 2014, 07:03:33 pm
Personally I like Leica, but I don't think that gives them an artistic license to spread information of dubious value.

Erik,

I just re-read David's article once more.  

A simple question.  Could you highlight exactly which statements in that article are factually incorrect?  

I have re-read your comments as well and quite frankly it is not entirely clear to me.

Thanks, Joris.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: peterv on November 19, 2014, 07:04:12 pm

Personally I like Leica, but I don't think that gives them an artistic license to spread information of dubious value. Putting things in perspective never harms.

Erik, I'm a photographer and I'm not scared by your technical posts, I enjoy reading them. Whether I understand everything you write and whether that's necessary for me in the so-called 'real world' is another matter :) Anyway, I appreciate your effort.

Question: What exactly did Leica say where that is information of dubious value?

BTW I think that in general this thread would benefit from less snarky remarks and more constructive discussion about the new S.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: mjrichardson on November 19, 2014, 07:05:35 pm
I'm going to be really disappointed when Feathers R Us come looking for a photographer to produce their catalogue images with the strict stipulation that they must be shot at 3.8m and enlarged massively, my S will be straight in the bin!

This really is an absurd conversation, there is so much more to a system than picking one ridiculous test and then banging on about it ad neusem. Just forget it Eric, it's not a system you own, have used, will ever own or will ever understand, that's ok, it's not designed for you, same as many other systems out there. Keep taking test images as long as that makes you happy and let photographers work with the equipment that suits their style and more importantly their clients requirements.

Title: Re: Those feather shots…
Post by: KAHA on November 19, 2014, 07:08:43 pm
After careful contemplation I think it's the red dot Mojo that imbues that special 'Je ne sais quoi' or 'größten auf der Erde' Leica look, no matter what language you say it in  ;D

but then again I'm a shameless Leica fan boy after all  ::)

Hi,

Can you substantiate? Why?

  • Is it the red dot?
  • Is it the resolution Leica 37 MP vs . Phase One P45+mat 39 MP?
  • Is it the microlenses?
  • Is it the smaller pixels of the Leica, 6 micron vs 6.8 micron? Could be the case!
  • Or are you just looking at the price tag?

My take is that a better lens would give higher edge contrast, but would not improve rendition as it is most limited by pixel level artefacts on the P45+ image.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 07:40:57 pm
Hi,

The information from Leica that I feel is grossly inaccurate is the advantage of the shallow well design of the CMOSIS sensor, when applied to the S-camera.

That design is very good for the large beam angles of wide angles for the M-series, but I would say that it is not needed for the S-cameras, as those are SLR designs having lenses with small beam angles.

There are also some claims on this thread that this design would eliminate vignetting on wide angles, which is also absolutely false. All wide angles vignette. It is a law of optics. Retrofocus lenses suffer a bit less from vignetting. Vignetting is in no way limited to digital sensors, centre spot filters were also used with film.

What the OP asks is why Leica is staying at 37.5 MP? The answers we get may be relevant for the Leica M, which has lens designs optimised for compactness, but are irrelevant for the S-series that are different designs intended for DSLRs.

On the other hand, Leica lenses are said to be extremely sharp. So we are combining sharp lenses with large pixels, which will not make the lenses justice and produce fake detail. Simply enough, small pixels are needed for good detail, especially with good lenses. The feather shots illustrate this quite clearly. Small pixels give better details. Another way to see it is that even 30 year old lenses outresolve large pixel sensors enough to yield artefacts.

So, for some reasons Leica decided to use an upscaled CMOSIS MAX sensor for the Leica S. Doing that they have given up some resolution compared to their competition from Phase One (IQ-250 -- IQ-280), Leaf, Hasselblad and Pentax.

Now, that resolution may not be the most important thing. But, the limited resolution will results in less smooth rendition of fine detail, more aliasing artefacts, with very little benefits. There would be benefits with a digital back based on the CMOSIS design, but such a back has not been presented.

Quote
BTW I think that in general this thread would benefit from less snarky remarks and more constructive discussion about the new S
Regarding the value of the Leica S, I would say that I love live view and a good high ISO capability is good for many situations. The reservations about the Leica I have are most related to the large pixels. Staying with 37.5 MP puts the Leica a bit behind the competition, will cause aliasing artefacts (but not more than on the existing Leicas).

With some probability we are going to see 46-54MP DSLRs from Sony and possibly Canon next year, and there are a few great lenses around. So competition heats up. All these needs to be taken into account, at least if the camera is intended as a device for making pictures.

Best regards
Erik



Erik, I'm a photographer and I'm not scared by your technical posts, I enjoy reading them. Whether I understand everything you write and whether that's necessary for me in the so-called 'real world' is another matter :) Anyway, I appreciate your effort.

Question: What exactly did Leica say where that is information of dubious value?

BTW I think that in general this thread would benefit from less snarky remarks and more constructive discussion about the new S.
Title: Re: Those feather shots…
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 07:42:31 pm
Absolutely OK!



but then again I'm a shameless Leica fan boy after all  ::)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 07:46:29 pm
Hi,

You also believe in flat earth theory? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Best regards
Erik

I'm going to be really disappointed when Feathers R Us come looking for a photographer to produce their catalogue images with the strict stipulation that they must be shot at 3.8m and enlarged massively, my S will be straight in the bin!

This really is an absurd conversation, there is so much more to a system than picking one ridiculous test and then banging on about it ad neusem. Just forget it Eric, it's not a system you own, have used, will ever own or will ever understand, that's ok, it's not designed for you, same as many other systems out there. Keep taking test images as long as that makes you happy and let photographers work with the equipment that suits their style and more importantly their clients requirements.


Title: Re: Those feather shots…
Post by: EricV on November 19, 2014, 08:21:42 pm
If you prefer the image on the left, buy a 39 MP back like the P45+ or the Leica S2. In case you prefer the image on the right wait for a 150 MP digital back.  Both images shot a 3.8 m with comparable lenses at 150 mm. The significant difference is the sensor, 6.8 vs 3.8 micron pitch.  Simple, isn't it?
Not quite so simple.  Consider two other solutions: 1) move closer (2.1m) or change lens focal length (270mm).  These solutions would provide the same increased density of pixels/feather, thus achieving the same improvement in image quality as your example.  The reason to prefer a 150MP sensor is to provide this improved image quality across a wide field of view.  Then there is stitching ....

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Joe Towner on November 19, 2014, 08:37:27 pm
What's odd is the delay between the announcement and release of the 007 S - Q2 2015.  It's got advantages for anyone already owning HC or Contax AF lenses. 

Plus, by being based around something other than the Sony 50mp chip, there may be differences that appeal to certain shooters.  Time will tell, the more interest in the market, the better for everyone.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: eronald on November 19, 2014, 10:27:04 pm
But you do know more than Leica engineers ...right? It's just that you have a better job than they can offer you if you apply to them, that keeps you from "teaching" them... right?


Theodoros,

 I would hope he is more careful than Leica engineers, because if reactors had the same rate of defects as Leica cameras, life near them would be dangerous - I had 4 M8 bodies!

Edmund
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 19, 2014, 11:12:25 pm
Hi Joris,

The first objection I have is this statement:
Quote
Dr. Zimmer estimates that the sensor in the S will have a SNR of around 79 dB, which will probably translate into somewhere between 13 and 14 stops of usable DR.
It is technically correct, 79 db is 13.12 EV, as it is between 13 and 14 EV. But 13.12 EV is essentially around 13EV, the article implies another EV in DR. (*)

The original CMOSIS sensor has 76 dB of SNR which corresponds to 12.6 EV, see below. DxO-mark tested it 12.34EV (this is the lower, unnormalised value)
http://www.cmosis.com/news/press_releases/new_leica_m_uses_cmosis_24_mp_cmos_image_sensor
Pushing the design 3 dB from (76 dB to 79 dB) is an engineering feat.


The other major objection is this:
Quote
The result is that there is no sensor vignetting, no color shifts and no loss of sharpness in the corners. It’s easy to put this theory to the test. Take a Leica 18mm Super Elmar-M ASPH lens. Put it on the M 240 and take a shot. Then, mount the same lens on a Sony A7r. Yeah…. Oh and just to see that the advantage isn’t only at extremes, try a 35mm Summilux ASPH next. The Sony sensor in the A7r just isn’t adept at handling non-retrofocus lenses, with non-telecentric designs
The suggestion here is totally irrelevant to DSLRs which the Leica S (Typ 007 happens to be). It is quite clear that the Sony A7r has problems with Leica-M ultra wides. But the solution that Leica has to the problem goes far beyond the sensor, they also have very thin cover glass and lens cast correction in software based on the coding of the lenses. The S-series wide angles are retrofocus designs, as they need space behind the lens for the mirror box. So the CMOSIS sensor has advantages when used with rangefinder lenses designed for film, but not with SLR lenses on the S (Typ 007).  

The A7r that was taken as an example here in the original posting works well with all Leica R, Nikon F or Canon EF lenses. And you can obviously not put neither the 18mm Super Elmar or the 35mm Summilux on the S (Typ 007), as they would not focus at infinity.

So I feel it is a misrepresentation of the facts in the context of S (Typ 007), and that is the camera the article is about.

Best regards
Erik

(*) This is speculation but the original CMOSIS sensor was reported to have a full well capacity of 40000 electron charges. The Nikon D600 is said to have an FWC around 76400. So the Nikon D600 which has similar pixel size can collect almost twice the number of electrons, which would yield about 40% less noise. The relatively low FWC on the CMOSIS sensor may depend on the shallow design.

The FWC data for the Nikon comes from Sensorgen: http://www.sensorgen.info, I am a bit skeptical about the accuracy

Erik,

I just re-read David's article once more.  

A simple question.  Could you highlight exactly which statements in that article are factually incorrect?  

I have re-read your comments as well and quite frankly it is not entirely clear to me.

Thanks, Joris.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 19, 2014, 11:52:26 pm
Hi Joris,

The first objection I have is this statement:It is technically correct, 79 db is 13.12 EV, as it is between 13 and 14 EV. But 13.12 EV is essentially around 13EV.

The other major objection is this:The suggestion here is totally irrelevant to DSLRs which the Leica S (Typ 007 happens to be). It is quite clear that the Sony A7r has problems with Leica-M ultra wides. But the solution that Leica has to the problem goes far beyond the Sensor, they also have very thin cover glass and lens cast correction in software based on the coding of the lenses. The S-series wide angles are retrofocus designs, as they need space behind the lens for the mirror box. So the CMOSIS sensor has advantages when used with rangefinder lenses designed for film, but not with SLR lenses on the S (Typ 007).

So I feel it is a misinterpretation of the facts.

Best regards
Erik

I personally wouldn't lose sleep over the first statement but that is because I don't care much whether it is 13 or 14EV.

I am not sure about the second statement and how applicable it is to the S.

I own an A7s and 3 M lenses.  I prefer the output the FE 55mm lens (the only FE lens that I have) to the output of the M lenses on the A7s.

According to me it doesn't necessarily mean though that the Sony sensor is not adept, it just means that the Leica sensor and firmware is optimized for the M lenses and the Sony to a lesser extent.  That's all.

I appreciate Leica for doing something different from Phase/Hasselblad/Pentax.  It is a pretty bold move IMO.  I hope they will be successful, a/o also because I have a vested interest (owning M9 and S2).  Time will tell.

Joris.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 20, 2014, 02:02:47 am
Hi,

Answers, see below.

Best regards
Erik

I personally wouldn't lose sleep over the first statement but that is because I don't care much whether it is 13 or 14EV.
That's OK with, it is just I want to have correct information.

I am not sure about the second statement and how applicable it is to the S.
Well, my point is that it is irrelevant for the S.

I own an A7s and 3 M lenses.  I prefer the output the FE 55mm lens (the only FE lens that I have) to the output of the M lenses on the A7s.
Hi, that can depend on many things. Leica has thin cover glass, which reduces astigmatism. Leica M also uses the 6 bit code on the lens for reducing lens cast effects. Sony doesn't do it for Leica lenses, obviously.
Zeiss has two lenses for Sony Alpha the Loxia 35/2 and a 50 mm lesn. Both are redesigns of the ZM series. This article shows the difference between the two lenses on the Sony Alpha 7r at full aperture. (http://3d-kraft.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=168:zeiss-loxia-2-35-short-comparison-review&catid=40:camerasandlenses&Itemid=2)


According to me it doesn't necessarily mean though that the Sony sensor is not adept, it just means that the Leica sensor and firmware is optimized for the M lenses and the Sony to a lesser extent.  That's all.
I agree fully.

I appreciate Leica for doing something different from Phase/Hasselblad/Pentax.  It is a pretty bold move IMO.  I hope they will be successful, a/o also because I have a vested interest (owning M9 and S2).  Time will tell.
I have no issue with the S (Typ 007). It has live view and I feel that is important and the high ISO capability is welcome for sure. Personally, I feel that those lenses probably deserve a higher resolution sensor. Ideally, the sensor should outresolve the lens, and I guess that the S (Typ 007) needs to be stopped down to f/16 to avoid aliasing. That is what I see on my P45+ with 20-30 year old lens designs.
The sample below is a detail from a P45+ shot using a Distagon 40, upsized to 200% for better viewing. Development was in LR 5.5. I see this kind of stuff to often on the P45+.
Other raw developers may do a better job (http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/RawConverters/Mosaic/Aliasing_NS_200_percent.jpg):.
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/RawConverters/Mosaic/Aliasing_NS_200_percent.jpg) (http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/RawConverters/Mosaic/Aliasing_NS_200_percent.jpg)

Joris.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: mjrichardson on November 20, 2014, 03:41:04 am
Morning Erik

Excellent answer, congratulations, your posts always make me laugh!


Hi,

You also believe in flat earth theory? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Best regards
Erik


So you don't have a problem with the sensor improvements, just that you don't feel they are relevant to the S? Well that's ok, you don't need to feel they are relevant, the Leica engineers and the people who buy it do, you'll get over it. With the ev, it's factually correct but 13.2 is closer to 13 even though the text said between 13 and 14, which is still technically factual but you prefer a manufacturer to round down rather than give a range, um, ok, that's maybe your issue rather than anyone elses.

As for the sensor, you personally feel that the S would be better served with a higher resolution sensor, well that's ok too but for reasons only Leica actually know as fact, the engineers decided that the system would deliver at 37.5, as you aren't ever going to buy one then I think your personal feelings are relevant to you but unlikely anyone else.

Your one man crusade against the S is impressive but ultimately will change nothing, what will you move on to next? The internet must be an exciting place for someone who takes issue with how data is displayed, you'll be busy!

Have a nice day.

Mat

Title: Re: Those feather shots…
Post by: Theodoros on November 20, 2014, 03:44:49 am
Hi,

Can you substantiate? Why?

  • Is it the red dot?
  • Is it the resolution Leica 37 MP vs . Phase One P45+mat 39 MP?
  • Is it the microlenses?
  • Is it the smaller pixels of the Leica, 6 micron vs 6.8 micron? Could be the case!
  • Or are you just looking at the price tag?

My take is that a better lens would give higher edge contrast, but would not improve rendition as it is most limited by pixel level artefacts on the P45+ image.

Best regards
Erik
Guess what Erik... All current Canon sensors have even larger pixels than the new S.... I wonder how ignorant of your basic physics and testing techniques they are.... One question  though... in your physics experiments... is it common practice to use different and have results for other?  ::)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: peterv on November 20, 2014, 05:14:10 am
Erik is an engineer, he likes to get his facts straight, up to two digits after the comma, others like to sell cameras so maybe they bend the facts here and there to their advantage. Nothing new, really.

As a photographer, I’m grateful for the scientific input of the engineers on this board, since this helps me to put the marketing speak in perspective.

I’m also grateful for the input of people like David, Doug and Steve. They have acces to -interesting- background information that may be helpful when making a buying decision.

In second quarter 2015, when the new S arrives, we can make tests against the 50 MP Sony 33x44 mm sensor * and see what all this means for our photography.

* By then, their might also be a 50 MP 24x36 mm sensor.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 20, 2014, 05:47:12 am
Never the less, one can't avoid noticing, that Erik uses examples with comparison of Sony's 24mp Cmos 24x36 sensor and Kodak's old 39mp CCD MF sensor ...and then addresses his (questionable IMO) findings as if Leica's new sensor will behave exactly the same as the old CCD MF sensor!!!  All this of course is despite the fact that Leica's new sensor has much more many commons with... Sony's sensor (both of exactly the same pixel size, both Cmos, both with micro lenses)!!!!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Carl Glover on November 20, 2014, 07:17:04 am
Hi,

I would say that Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 may be an attractive alternative or the Alpa FPS, depending on needs, of course.

http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/rolleiflex-slr/rolleiflex-hy6-mod2.html
http://www.alpa.ch/products/lenses/macro-tilt-swing/apla-lens-adapter-rolleiflex-600x-hy6-sinar-hy6-leaf-afi.html

I already have a hy6, my second one in fact.

I would use the S2 as a replacement for my Canon 5DIIs (except when it comes to the two outstanding T/S lenses) but using my favourite Rollei glass.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: bjanes on November 20, 2014, 09:53:15 am
There is one big issue though. The lenses. No one that I know uses a digital camera without a lens. The Leica S lens line is Superb from the 24mm to the 180mm. They really get every bit of detail out of the sensor. Plus you can use Contax 645, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645 and Pentax 6x7 lenses.

Nor does one use a lens without a sensor. As this post (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94394.msg771528#msg771528) by Jim Kasson and the ensuing discussion by Jim and Bart van der Wolf point out, given reasonably good lens performance, one gets the most bang for the buck by using a higher resolution sensor rather than increasing lens performance. Take a look at Jim's quiver plots. The Leica lenses are undoubtedly outstanding, but they can not get every bit of detail out of the sensor since MTFs multiply and the MTF of the lens is less than unity. The cost sensitive photographer would likely get more for his money by choosing a sensor with higher resolution than is offered by the Leica and using less expensive but still excellent lenses with this sensor. The Pentax MFDB would give more bang for the buck, but there is not that much difference between 37.5 and 50 MP.

Bill
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: mjrichardson on November 20, 2014, 10:29:33 am
I can appreciate I may be alone in thinking this but to me sharpness at minute levels is a important but by no means make or break when it comes to buying in to a system. I now have m4/3rds, Canon APSC, Nikon full frame and Leica S, the look of the file coming from the Leica is just incredibly deep and sumptuous for want of a better word, surely the image as a whole is made up of many elements, contrast, colour etc? Why is the focus simply on how many pixels and their size are required to get a sharper image?

Mat
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 20, 2014, 10:46:42 am
The cost sensitive photographer would likely get more for his money by choosing a sensor with higher resolution than is offered by the Leica and using less expensive but still excellent lenses with this sensor. The Pentax MFDB would give more bang for the buck, but there is not that much difference between 37.5 and 50 MP.

That's correct. We're talking about a sampling density difference between 5.3 micron (645Z), and 6.0 micron (S, typ 006 and 007). That's not a huge difference, but would probably be enough to reduce the risk of aliasing (Erik's point) a little bit, also marginally helped by per pixel diffraction. The physical sensor array sizes are close enough to make no difference regarding subject magnification factor for a given field of view.

The original question why Leica chose to keep at the same resolution may be as trivial as having no readily available sensor for the relatively limited quantities they would require. The rest is guesswork.

The Leica lenses would benefit from a higher sensor resolution, but there is probably no viable sensor available off the shelf. The rest is left to marketing.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: peterv on November 20, 2014, 11:09:48 am
And there you have it. Six pages of forum discussion in a nutshell.

Thanks Bart, for stating the issues clear and simple.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: bcooter on November 20, 2014, 12:44:32 pm
I can appreciate I may be alone in thinking this but to me sharpness at minute levels is a important but by no means make or break when it comes to buying in to a system........snip......the look of the file coming from the Leica is just incredibly deep and sumptuous for want of a better word, surely the image as a whole is made up of many elements, contrast, colour etc?

Mat


I agree with the look trumps all, but I think we're in the minority on this.

My question to everyone but Mat is  . . . who cares?  

I bought a Leica because I wanted it and never needed anyone to validate my purchase by agreeing with me.  

I didn't buy it to prove it's a better camera, test it against tree trunks or produce charts.   I don't sell or compete with cameras.  

I buy them to make a living and hopefully enjoy my day and in all honesty am glad so many people don't rush the Leica doors.  


IMO

BC

(http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/finalrocknroll1.jpg)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 20, 2014, 04:37:04 pm
MF is certainly in the cross-roads of a major change... I don't believe there will be anymore new CCD sensors introduced. It certainly looks that Leica's decision to use CMOS was calculated years ago (since M240 and S-007 sensors are clearly close related) and that the competition was prepared to have an answer to it.
From this POV, one should consider that the new technology has to be adapted with the different needs MF users have from DSLR users, there is no good solution yet provided for tech and view camera users and sensor size is not picking from where CCD sensors are. But one should consider that Leica invested in Sinar which is a major player in the theca camera market and also produces MF backs for advanced use and of course the competition can't leave tech or view camera market unsupported... IMO, there will soon be an even larger size CMOS sensor (based on the current one) by Leica, that will be used as Sinar's entrance to Cmos technology and the same is to be expected from the other makers...  High Quality LV that is accompanying CMOS technology is a blessing for view  and tech users, but OTOH, cameras with movements don't like small pixels much...
   
I certainly believe that judging resolution based on CCD past experience, is not the right way of looking at things... 6microns is not a huge pixel size by any means as many suggest, I believe it has been chosen having in mind all the above and other considerations too (like low light performance). I believe that Leica's choice of pixel size will prove to be a better choice than competition very soon... and it will prove a winner to most of the possible market that these products aim for... the pros and artist photographers that make a living out of their cameras and the solutions their equipment provides to them....
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: bcooter on November 20, 2014, 06:41:07 pm
that the techies are predominant.


True.

Some use tech to sell you.  Some to unsell you.  Some to talk, some just because I guess they're bored and love charts.

But they're not talking technique . . . they be talking geek and yea I know the geeks have won.

God help us.



IMO

BC
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: synn on November 20, 2014, 07:35:27 pm
True.

Some use tech to sell you.  Some to unsell you.  Some to talk, some just because I guess they're bored and love charts.

But they're not talking technique . . . they be talking geek and yea I know the geeks have won.

God help us.



IMO

BC

Amen.

Tech talk to improve the pictures one takes is constructive and interesting. Tech talk for the sake of tech talk gets real old, real fast.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: hjulenissen on November 21, 2014, 01:07:28 am
Amen.

Tech talk to improve the pictures one takes is constructive and interesting. Tech talk for the sake of tech talk gets real old, real fast.
I'd suggest that striving for better pictures or a better technical understanding would both do you and everyone else good, while demanding that people should quit discussing certain things must be the least productive way to spend ones limited time.

One might speculate that you actively find discussion sections (" Equipment & Techniques") and threads ("Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)") where you know that there will be a technical debate, and then (rather than offer your experiences) tries to derail the discussion. The question is why?

-h
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: synn on November 21, 2014, 01:33:11 am
I'd suggest that striving for better pictures or a better technical understanding would both do you and everyone else good, while demanding that people should quit discussing certain things must be the least productive way to spend ones limited time.

One might speculate that you actively find discussion sections (" Equipment & Techniques") and threads ("Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)") where you know that there will be a technical debate, and then (rather than offer your experiences) tries to derail the discussion. The question is why?

-h

Nobody is demanding anyone to do anything.
If the techies have a right to barge into every thread, tech related or otherwise and spill their infinite wisdom, the non techies have an equal right to say it bores the crap out of them.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 01:37:07 am
Hi,

Very good observation. I was considering it before posting, but decided not to elaborate. It seems that the discussion continues, so I post a response.

When I made the test with the feather, what I wanted to see if I would see fake detail on natural objects. I tested three cameras the P45+, Sony Alpha 99 and Sony Alpha 77.

P45+SLT99SLT77Leica S (Typ 007)
Pixel pitch6.86.03.86
MicrolensesNoYesYesYes
OLP filterNoYesYesNo

What I have seen here was that the P45+ and the Sony Alpha 99 were pretty close. The OLP filter on the SLT99 removed some colour aliasing, but monochrome aliasing was pretty similar. The SLT 77 with it's smaller pixels did show much less aliasing. That makes me feel that small pixels are more important for correct reproduction than OLP-filtering. Another way to say it, I feel the OLP-filters are designed to reduce colour aliasing. Another observation was that shooting distance and focal length did not matter a lot, I started with an 80 mm lens but continued with 150 mm.

Here is a link to that comparison: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/FakeDetail/comparison1.html

I enclosed the most interesting part, below. The images are left to right P45+, SLT 99 and SLT 77. The SLT 99 has the same pixel pitch as the Leica S (Typ 007) but has OLP filter (Optical Low Pass). So, from where I stand, I would say that it is better to have an image with small pixels and downsize with a good algorithm than having large pixels and upsize with a good algorithm. The feather is a very good test for this, as it is very easy to what is to tell real detail from artificial detail.

I would agree, with posters stating that 37 MP and 50MP is not a large difference. My point is mainly that smaller pixels give better rendition, in the sense they produce less artificial detail.

Jim Kasson had an excellent series on the issue in june 2014, here is a link to one of the final articles in that series: http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20140630 . That article series is worth reading for the technically minded.

What Jim has found was that about 2 micron pixels were needed to pull best information of the Zeiss Distagon 55/1.4 (Otus) lens he was using for reference.
 
Best regards
Erik
Never the less, one can't avoid noticing, that Erik uses examples with comparison of Sony's 24mp Cmos 24x36 sensor and Kodak's old 39mp CCD MF sensor ...and then addresses his (questionable IMO) findings as if Leica's new sensor will behave exactly the same as the old CCD MF sensor!!!  All this of course is despite the fact that Leica's new sensor has much more many commons with... Sony's sensor (both of exactly the same pixel size, both Cmos, both with micro lenses)!!!!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: hjulenissen on November 21, 2014, 02:05:50 am
... an equal right to say it bores the crap out of them.
You can tell me that I am boring. I can tell you that you are boring. And so forth. What good does it do to any of us? Please feel free to PM me.

-h
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 21, 2014, 02:06:23 am
Nobody is demanding anyone to do anything.
If the techies have a right to barge into every thread, tech related or otherwise and spill their infinite wisdom, the non techies have an equal right to say it bores the crap out of them.

Indeed. I think that this whole tech talk on the 007 results from the fact that people see a gap between the marketing sensor tech talk of Leica and their understanding of its actual merits relative to the competition. In other words, Leica marketing may have made a mistake by trying to further rationalize the value of the 007 in terms of sensor technological advance that may not be as clear cut as they claim.

My personal view remains that the S system is a fascinating offering, mostly thanks to is remarkable lenses.

In that context, the 007 has closed a lot of the gaps that existed relative to its DSLR competitors (645Z, D810, a7r) and that in itself means it is much better value than the previous S cameras. The system now has capabilities that make it universally appealing.

Whether the pricepoint makes sense or not depends on everyone's needs and situation. Not needing shutter leaf lenses, I personally think it is way over priced.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: synn on November 21, 2014, 02:06:43 am
Sure. And how many times will you repeat yourself before you bore yourself out?

-h

At least as many times as people find the time to point it out.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: EricWHiss on November 21, 2014, 04:23:12 am
Theodoros,

 I would hope he is more careful than Leica engineers, because if reactors had the same rate of defects as Leica cameras, life near them would be dangerous - I had 4 M8 bodies!

Edmund

Yes, Edmund, but you know what they say….  "Those that can do, do, those that can't teach"
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Chris Livsey on November 21, 2014, 04:30:47 am
In the spirit of technical accuracy, which this thread seems to have centred on:-

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.

Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
George Bernard Shaw
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 04:38:26 am
This all. doesn't take into account that different sensors are designed to serve different tasks... In other words, there are only some that think of MF as DSLR replacement. In my view, if I am to use MF only for what a DSLR can do, I may as well use a DSLR and save the money.... But a DSLR, won't provide me with MS, it will have limited use when movements are needed, doesn't offer the modularity as to change finders or screens or backs a traditional MF system offers and doesn't offer the colour accuracy needed for repro work... That's why I'm stuck with C645 and Fuji GX680 or others with Mamyia RZ or Hassy-V or Rollei, or are blaming Hasselblad for "closing" the H system... (which they now seem to try and open back bit by bit).

One may easily notice that in industry the larger the sensor the larger the pixels, in other words, pixel density is tighter the smaller the area, there is a good explanation for this since a sensor receives photons not only on its centre but on the edges and corners too and of course, these edge pixels must perform up to a level and the entrance angle increases with larger formats... let alone if lens movements come into the equation...

As a result one has to understand Leica-S positioning into the market and link it with their decisions... For people that upgrade from DSLR just to improve their IQ in common DSLR use, it does exactly that, for people with MF that want to keep their systems and only want to upgrade their back and abandon their DSLR system altogether thus shrinking the equipment needed while increase quality at the same time... it does exactly that.. For those that want to upgrade their MFDBs or want to use a camera with movements, they now own Sinar and Leica has their MFDBs to consider too...

Clearly, the camera provides a link that one may consider if he wants to both replace his DSLR system altogether and integrate it into his MF system keeping the rest of it... That's why the adapters! ....and of course it is sensible for them to decide on a sensor that would provide ONE base to serve all they are planning... a sensor base that will be able to cope with m, S or Sinar... It's simple isn't it? It really is! I believe we'll be surprised with the quality of their sensor in four months time when it will be introduced! I believe High ISO performance will exceed anything we are used up to now, but it will also perform very well on a Leica-P3 view camera and colour accuracy and DR will be right at the top as one would expect from a similarly priced MFDB... I also expect great LV performance and a new Sinarback based on the same sensor technology soon...
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: EricWHiss on November 21, 2014, 04:43:27 am
Chris,
Perfect thanks for the quote and reference too. :-)

Though there is indeed a lot of technical chatter, I'm wondering how much of it is truly relevant?   I mean what percentage of images are ruined by color aliasing?  What percentage of those can't be fixed with simple photoshop work?  When you shop for a camera system - at what level should aliasing come up in the purchase decision criteria?

There is one forum member particularly concerned with it, almost to obsession, but does color aliasing impact the rest of you in any real way?   I've never had a concern over it because it doesn't seem to come into play in my images, even those of feathers, because I can control it with distance and aperture. On the few occasions its present, it seems most viewers never notice it.  
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 21, 2014, 04:45:29 am
In the spirit of technical accuracy, which this thread seems to have centred on:-

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.

Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
George Bernard Shaw

And from the same author:
"A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into pedantry. Hence University education."

;)

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 21, 2014, 04:52:29 am
Though there is indeed a lot of technical chatter, I'm wondering how much of it is truly relevant?   I mean what percentage of images are ruined by color aliasing?  What percentage of those can't be fixed with simple photoshop work?  When you shop for a camera system - at what level should aliasing come up in the purchase decision criteria?

Hi Eric,

That would probably depend on the type of subjects one shoots. I can imagine that those into fashion/fabrics and product related photography, and those in architecture would certainly want to have a more predictably usable image quality. Those who shoot birds (the feathered variety), would probably also prefer something that produces less aliasing artifacts.

Post-processing costs time/money, so if one has a choice it's better to avoid issues to begin with. Being educated and aware helps, ignorance or even denial doesn't.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 21, 2014, 05:08:10 am
As a result one has to understand Leica-S positioning into the market and link it with their decisions... For people that upgrade from DSLR just to improve their IQ in common DSLR use, it does exactly that...

Does it?

I'll wait for the DxO mark results before deciding if a 007 + 70mm f2.8 is superior to a D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4.

Based on what we know today, I see little reason to think it would be at all and none to think it would be significantly.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 05:17:49 am
Hi,

What I see is a fairley large percentage of my shots with the P45+. Typical areas affected:

- Architecture
- Water surfaces
- Tree tops and vegetation

It seems that there will be colour aliasing at f/11 and below but it goes away at f/16. But I don't want to stop down to f/16, because I loose sharpness and sharpness is what I am using MF for.

There is probably a lot of aliasing in nature shots, too, but it is not easily seen. Personally, I don't enjoy fixing artefacts in Photoshop.

With birds, I don't know. I have shown that we can have artificial effects on individual feathers, but I guess that some artificial detail can enhance the image many times. I often see some detail in animal fur that I am pretty sure is beyond the resolution of the sensor.


Best regards
Erik


Hi Eric,

That would probably depend on the type of subjects one shoots. I can imagine the those into fashion/fabrics and product related photography, and those in architecture would certainly want to have a more predictably usable image quality. Those who shoot birds (the feathered variety), would probably also prefer something that produces less aliasing artifacts.

Postprocessing costs time/money, so if one has a choice it's better to avoid issues to begin with. Being educated and aware helps, ignorance or even denial doesn't.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: eronald on November 21, 2014, 08:44:33 am
Nobody is demanding anyone to do anything.
If the techies have a right to barge into every thread, tech related or otherwise and spill their infinite wisdom, the non techies have an equal right to say it bores the crap out of them.

Indeed my dear, it really is so frightfully sad that those servant techies get uppity and are seen above stairs these days. But you know, the world isn't what it used to be.

Here in Paris we still know how to do things:

- The Photographer is that handsome man with the leather jacket who is standing next to the AD. All the girls at Elle love him, and he is seen at every nightclub, gets the jobs, writes the invoices and as long as he's here he gives the essential instructions like "Run down to Louboutin and get us some matte pumps" or "Liliane, time to sparkle for the next shot, do go and powder your nose". He'll make sure to be seen leaving with a couple of models as soon as the shoot wraps.

- The  assistant is that miserable mousy thing standing next to the camera cart, who has just stepped back from the camera. He really needs to wash his hair, in fact it looks like he should take a bath.  But he won't have much time for that tonight because after the shot he needs to pack everything and then he has to get the first batch of previews retouched.

 You see?  Artists and techies each have the life they deserve. Now, isn't that the way it should always be?

Edmund
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 09:20:30 am
Does it?

I'll wait for the DxO mark results before deciding if a 007 + 70mm f2.8 is superior to a D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4.

Based on what we know today, I see little reason to think it would be at all and none to think it would be significantly.

Cheers,
Bernard

You'll make your decision depending on DXO tests?  ;D I'll trust my decision based on my own tests alright... :P
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 09:22:32 am
Hi,

What I see is a fairley large percentage of my shots with the P45+. Typical areas affected:

- Architecture
- Water surfaces
- Tree tops and vegetation

It seems that there will be colour aliasing at f/11 and below but it goes away at f/16. But I don't want to stop down to f/16, because I loose sharpness and sharpness is what I am using MF for.

There is probably a lot of aliasing in nature shots, too, but it is not easily seen. Personally, I don't enjoy fixing artefacts in Photoshop.

With birds, I don't know. I have shown that we can have artificial effects on individual feathers, but I guess that some artificial detail can enhance the image many times. I often see some detail in animal fur that I am pretty sure is beyond the resolution of the sensor.


Best regards
Erik


still... iT'S NOT YOUR P-45 ON TEST!  ???
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 21, 2014, 09:25:42 am
still... iT'S NOT YOUR P-45 ON TEST!  ???

Simple, then just show us your S (typ 007) test images, free of artifacts where other cameras fail ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: mjrichardson on November 21, 2014, 09:39:57 am
I have a genuine question, is the only consideration for detail in a shot the pixel size? Are you saying that there is no difference between old ccd tech like the P45 and new cmos tech if the pixel sizes are the same? I don't understand Erik's test at all, I am quite happy not to get it though, it's important to him so as far as that is concerned it's entirely valid, what I don't understand is how it relates to the S 007.

If detail is the aim then are you guys saying that the only consideration is pixel size, not lenses, processor, processing or any other system considerations?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 09:43:08 am
I really don't see how all this meanness on a product can be created... before the product ever appears, before anyone has tried it and before one ever knows the solutions it provides... Surely that level of nonsense, can't be an emotional reaction... it's purely a mean pre-decided attack based on ...nothing! ...LISTEN: "I tested (with my "rules") that tomato... hence the other vegetable ...will taste like meat"! ...what a conclusion!  ???  :o  ;D  :P

    Aristoteles have set the rules of logic based on some criteria (universally called "fundamentals") ...these criteria are now FUNDAMENTALLY accepted as "base of logic" world wide... The one that disagrees can always use therapy advise from a psychologist... Everything else (including "systemically" approval from "friends") is pure trolling... nothing more nothing less...  ;)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 09:48:01 am
Simple, then just show us your S (typ 007) test images, free of artifacts where other cameras fail ...

Cheers,
Bart
Simple... just show us YOUR S(007) images... that does the same as P45 does! ...SEE? ...pure logic! ...your logic!  ;)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 10:20:11 am
I've a sneaking suspicion that if She did exist she'd be a tad too busy to worry about a bunch of male measurebators.

LOL... Once upon the time, long way ago, I had the same argument with somebody (name doesn't matter - he is well know into photography forums as "Nikon guru") that had similar arguments on D4's resolution based on his D700 experience (and his "theory" behind it), because the camera (the D700 or the D3/S) is the most moire sensitive one out of all cameras or MFDBs past 1994 (inc. all Kodak 22mp sensor based MFDBs)... He ended up calling D4 a ..."crap", a "fake", a "nonsense" and all the names one can imagine before it ever appeared... just because his mind was "stuck"..., just because he is the same type of character now as he ever was.... Now, everybody that has used Nikon's (exclusive to them) 16mp sensor, agrees that is the best DSLR sensor around... some even say "by far"... But, he will never accept his barain being one of a "D^@khead" ...or he ever will!  ;)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 21, 2014, 10:21:15 am
Simple... just show us YOUR S(007) images... that does the same as P45 does! ...SEE? ...pure logic! ...your logic!  ;)

I don't have an S (typ 007), do you?

I do have images which are free of the artifacts discussed (see attached). But since they were not taken with the camera under discussion (and because of the subject imaged) I hesitated to post any (because presenting factual warnings, and cats, are apparently frowned upon).

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 10:34:28 am
Hi,

We have noticed on Doug Peterson "library shots" that the IQ-250 produced less colour aliasing than the CCD-based backs. This may be attributed to the microlenses on the sensor, or something else. The SLT 99 rendition in my experiment was very similar to the P45+, except there was little colour aliasing.

What I essentially say is that for correct rendition it is necessary that the sensor outresolves the lens. Another way of saying this that MTF at pixel resolution needs to be low. In a paper published by Schneider I have seen the figure that MTF should be below 10%.

In most cases monochrome artefacts are not very visible and gapless microlenses may be good at reducing colour aliasing. How that works on the S the future may show. I have checked some raw files from the S2 shot during Lloyd Chambers testing and there was very significant colour aliasing.

Added:

Those shots with the S2 were taken with a CCD sensor that probably does not have microlenses. Increasing the fill factor (the sensitive area of the pixel) reduces aliases somewhat.

There is a lot of discussion about pixel sizes and the end of the megapixel race, but in the end it seems quite proven that smaller pixels improve reproduction of fine details.

Below is a good article by Ctein
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/02/why-80-megapixels-just-wont-be-enough.html

This article is interesting, too
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/02/d800-megapixels.html

Best regards
Erik


I have a genuine question, is the only consideration for detail in a shot the pixel size? Are you saying that there is no difference between old ccd tech like the P45 and new cmos tech if the pixel sizes are the same? I don't understand Erik's test at all, I am quite happy not to get it though, it's important to him so as far as that is concerned it's entirely valid, what I don't understand is how it relates to the S 007.

If detail is the aim then are you guys saying that the only consideration is pixel size, not lenses, processor, processing or any other system considerations?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 10:35:43 am
I don't have an S (typ 007), do you?

I do have images which are free of the artifacts discussed (see attached). But since they were not taken with the camera under discussion (and because of the subject imaged) I hesitated to post any (because presenting factual warnings, and cats, are apparently frowned upon).

Cheers,
Bart
Is this an answer to my reasoning? ...because according to logic rules it's not! ...My reasoning behind logic considerations that you have supported are specific... and thus one has to reply ON THEM ...not "beside" them! Has your cat being shot with a Leica S-007? ...What's the relevance of the cat into supporting "crap" theories of S-007 sensor being inferior to Sony's 50mp sensor then? ...please don't continue this insane logic! ...will you?  :D
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: mjrichardson on November 21, 2014, 10:45:16 am
Bart, was that shot from 3.8m away with a P45+? haha.

Small sections in isolation will never give the complete story, Eriks feather may be a tiny crop from a photograph of a stunningly beautiful woman in an incredible location and the feather or the detail has no baring on the image or it could be a picture of a feather in which case it's the wrong equipment and setup. Even after Eriks reply, I am still non the wiser as to how it relates to the camera in question.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 10:47:33 am
Hi,

We have noticed on Doug Peterson "library shots" that the IQ-250 produced less colour aliasing than the CCD-based backs. This may be attributed to the microlenses on the sensor, or something else. The SLT 99 rendition in my experiment was very similar to the P45+, except there was little colour aliasing.

What I essentially say is that for correct rendition it is necessary that the sensor outresolves the lens. Another way of saying this that MTF at pixel resolution needs to be low. In a paper published by Schneider I have seen the figure that MTF should be below 10%.

In most cases monochrome artefacts are not very visible and gapless microlenses may be good at reducing colour aliasing. How that works on the S the future may show. I have checked some raw files from the S2 shot during Lloyd Chambers testing and there was very significant colour aliasing.

Best regards
Erik


Erik, please do remember that you are judging a non tested product by implying (questionable IMO) theories on it... This is outrageous for what a physician or an Engineer (excuse me for being one myself) would ever do! ...Experimentation of other for testing other is OUT OF THE QUESTION for science... the results are fundamentally laughed as being crap and out of consideration! ...as simple as that! ...and there is no sensible that will disagree with this! ...if he does, he is not worth considering as having a stable "mind state"... ask a psychiatrist if you don't trust me saying that this isn't A BASIC RULE for ...logic!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 21, 2014, 11:24:38 am
Even after Eriks reply, I am still non the wiser as to how it relates to the camera in question.

It's simple action->reaction. When people claim that the reason for Leica to not increase resolution is; because of better image quality, then someone (other than a fanboy) is bound to point out the fallacy of that explanation. Add to that that nobody who really knows will tell the real reason(s), and you have a recipe for a nice discussion.

Not that that will lead anywhere ..., until Leica releases the next (higher resolution) model, which then becomes the most logical 'deliberate' choice, and so on. It's AKA cognitive dissonance, when we give people the benefit of assuming they know what they are talking about to begin with.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 11:36:37 am
It's simple action->reaction. When people claim that the reason for Leica to not increase resolution is; because of better image quality, then someone (other than a fanboy) is bound to point out the fallacy of that explanation. Add to that that nobody who really knows will tell the real reason(s), and you have a recipe for a nice discussion.

Not that that will lead anywhere ..., until Leica releases the next (higher resolution) model, which then becomes the most logical 'deliberate' choice, and so on. It's AKA cognitive dissonance, when we give people the benefit of assuming they know what they are talking about to begin with.

Cheers,
Bart
Yeap! ...but you still had an one side view before, by supporting Erik's (obvious) nonsense that referred to an a non existing product and was using (questionable) results of other product of ..."10 year's old past sentence", ....as applicable to a product  ...not yet announced! ...is that explainable by the cat you posted above? ...where is the logic behind all this nonsense?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: mjrichardson on November 21, 2014, 11:43:47 am
Ha, I'm hardly a fan boy, I'm not pro anything, I'm just anti nonsensical proof for why a camera that hasn't been released cannot have increased image quality based on test done that have absolutely no relevance as far as I can see.

The technical side of photography is important but only when it makes sense, surely that's the point?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 11:55:36 am
Ha, I'm hardly a fan boy, I'm not pro anything, I'm just anti nonsensical proof for why a camera that hasn't been released cannot have increased image quality based on test done that have absolutely no relevance as far as I can see.

The technical side of photography is important but only when it makes sense, surely that's the point?
Remember that this is Phamyia occupied forum, that KNOWS they are under very serious threat... and is trying to survive... They KNOW Hassy is going to be under Leica's control sooner or later... Sooo, Attracting as many customers as they can, ...NOW (!), is most important for them ...for the (possible) future (if there is going to be any...)!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 21, 2014, 11:59:43 am
Ha, I'm hardly a fan boy, I'm not pro anything, I'm just anti nonsensical proof for why a camera that hasn't been released cannot have increased image quality based on test done that have absolutely no relevance as far as I can see.

I don't think anybody said that the quality would not be improved over previous models with the same resolution, although the evidence is still out, yet I'm confident that the quality has improved (assuming they did their homework).

The OPs question/title of this thread asked why it was the same resolution (sampling density would be more accurately stated). A higher resolution would have made some other benefits possible (such as reduced risk of aliasing, and even higher resolution from the same excellent lenses). Time will tell.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 12:07:02 pm
I don't think anybody said that the quality would not be improved over previous models with the same resolution, although the evidence is still out, yet I'm confident that the quality has improved (assuming they did their homework).

The OPs question/title of this thread asked why it was the same resolution (sampling density would be more accurately stated). A higher resolution would have made some other benefits possible (such as reduced risk of aliasing, and even higher resolution from the same excellent lenses). Time will tell.

Cheers,
Bart
Yet, no questions answered... or will ever be! One sets the wonder... and then no analysis on the subject being set... nice logic! ...all "according to the rules!"
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 12:38:55 pm
Oh please BC... don't make me laugh! ...does one has to have a ..."point" as to post in forums?  ;D ...LOL. Do you really think that all this BS posted against S-007 introduction and (inevitable) success... needs ("real") reasoning?  ...don't make me laugh ...please!

The man was clear... American reactors depend on Erik's reliability and he had FOUR M8's failing... so he trusts Erik the best he can if compared to Leica's engineers... Simple logic! ...Einstein's logic!  ;D
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 01:06:13 pm
Hi,

I have clearly stated it was 3.8 meter and Bart probably feels that I used to be totally honest. No lady involved in that picture in any way, unless the feather is coming from a female specimen of that bird.

I can give some background to that image. It begins with Harry Nyquist, a scientist who formulated the sampling theorem called after him. It says that details below the half the sampling rate can be reproduced correctly. If a signal contains significant amplitude above that frequency lower frequency images will result.

A very good demonstration of that is to shoot Bart van der Wolf's test target (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13217). The result will be something like this:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/Alaising/i-xBwNRTT/0/O/BartNyquist.png)

As you see the lines are converging to a certain limit, passing that they bend. The limit between straight and bending lines is the foretold Nyquist limit. If a lens throws high frequency detail on the sensor that sensor will show that high frequency as a lower frequency alias. This alias is usually colourful on Bayer sensor. So ideally, a lens would resolve at the Nyquist limit of the sensor, but pixel level contrast should be zero above the Nyquist limit.




The two images below illustrate this pretty well, I think. The upper one is shot with the Sony Alpha SLT 77. That camera has 3.8 micron pixels so Nyquist limit is 1000/3.8/2 131 lp/mm. The lens used here has around 3% MTF at 131 lp/mm. We still see some aliasing, and that is related to the Bayer filter as sampling frequencies for red and green are half of Nyquist.

The lower image is shot on a Hasselblad with a P45+ back. It has 6.8 micron pixels, which correspond to 73 lp/mm. At this frequency the Planar 80 lens used in this test transfers about 10% of contrast. Intense aliasing results.
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/Nyquist1_cropped.jpg)

Now, these cameras are different. The Sony is used with a Zeiss 16-80/3.5-4.5 lens and has in all probability an aliasing filter. The P45+ was used in this later test with a Planar 80/2.8 lens at f/5.6. The Planar is very sharp in the centre. The P45+ lacks an OLP-filter (AKA Anti-Aliasing filter). That AA filter is needed to supress MTF beyond the Nyquist limit. In general, most DSLRs have been using AA-filters while most MFD-s do not. The Mamiya ZD had an optional AA-filter costing around 3000 $US last time I checked.

On the P45+, aliasing is very obvious at f/11 but entirely gone at f/16. But, using f/16 reduces sharpness significantly, possibly to the same level I get from the 24 MP SLT at f/8.

Anyway, the way to avoid aliasing is to use small pixels or adding an OLP filter. For some reason unknown to me, MFD normally doesn't employ OLP filters.

On the other hand, we also can clearly see that sharp lenses transferring a lot of contrast are massive producers of aliasing.

The feather images were intended to investigate this phenomena, why:



I used three camera bodies in this test, those were what I had available to me. Of the three cameras the SLT99 is closest to the Leica S, same pixel size and using gapless microlenses.

My conclusion of this test were:


I would say that these findings are in line with basic image sampling theory and there is no magic changing it!

So, why don't photographers see this?


Just to make it clear, I don't say that small sensor cameras give better reproduction than large sensor cameras. What I am saying that small pixels are needed for correct reproduction, especially when used in combination with inherently sharp lenses.

Very clearly, I don't think we have seen real world images from the Leica S. The micro-lenses may be helpful in reducing aliasing, that have been seen on the IQ-250 images published by Doug Peterson of DT. But those micro lenses will not cause a miracle to happen. I am 100% sure that smaller pixels are needed to make those Leica S lenses justice. At least if they are as good as they are said to be.

Best regards
Erik


Bart, was that shot from 3.8m away with a P45+? haha.

Small sections in isolation will never give the complete story, Eriks feather may be a tiny crop from a photograph of a stunningly beautiful woman in an incredible location and the feather or the detail has no baring on the image or it could be a picture of a feather in which case it's the wrong equipment and setup. Even after Eriks reply, I am still non the wiser as to how it relates to the camera in question.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 01:19:57 pm
Unbelievable! ...this guy (Erik) will do anything to avoid answering QUESTIONS posted to him and will post anything as to alter a subject!  ??? How is the weather Erik?  ;) What's the relevance of the above to Leica S 007?  >:(
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 01:30:29 pm
Erik,

This thread has been good for you as your photography is improving.

Much more interesting than those feathers.

Though just a thought, but I think the first image will make people a little dizzy.

If you sell this as a print, please warn the owners not to hang it near a staircase.

Can't wait to see the next session.

Keep it up.  

BC
Oh BC... can't you see that the man is a "different" kind of artist? He is posting to MF photography forums as to teach men on how to it... It's the "know how" he knows... What is our trivial photography when compared to nuclear reactors? ...It's "nuclear art" we are talking here! ...all well supported under logic!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 21, 2014, 01:33:00 pm
You'll make your decision depending on DXO tests?  ;D I'll trust my decision based on my own tests alright... :P

A first hand comparative test would work just as well and is likely to deliver the exact same results. ;)

When the double O 7 gets released, I'd be more than happy to shoot brick walls with you if that's your cup of tea.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 01:34:15 pm
Hi Theodoros,

Weather is bad, good for testing.

Weather is not related to Leica S (type 007). Well, except it is weather proofed, which is a good thing in my book.

I did answer your questions, as reasonably as I could. May be I am not clear enough, but I have to admit that English is not my first language. So there may be some fine points I miss.

Just to make clear, I am not very religious and I have a deep distrust in marketing messages. You obviously believe that a product announced at Photokina but not yet released will be superior due to some magic/engineering/divine intervention. Personally, I believe in science and established knowledge.

Best regards
Erik




Unbelievable! ...this guy (Erik) will do anything to avoid answering QUESTIONS posted to him and will post anything as to alter a subject!  ??? How is the weather Erik?  ;) What's the relevance of the above to Leica S 007?  >:(
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 01:39:01 pm
A first hand comparative test would work just as well and is likely to deliver the exact same results. ;)

When the double O 7 gets released, I'd be more than happy to shoot brick walls with you if that's your cup of tea.

Cheers,
Bernard

Not my cup of tea... thanks for the offer though... you only have to find another companion in spending your day... (the way you suggested).
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 01:40:45 pm
Hi Theodoros,

Weather is bad, good for testing.

Weather is not related to Leica S (type 007). Well, except it is weather proofed, which is a good thing in my book.

I did answer your questions, as reasonably as I could. May be I am not clear enough, but I have to admit that English is not my first language. So there may be some fine points I miss.

Just to make clear, I am not very religious and I have a deep distrust in marketing messages. You obviously believe that a product announced at Photokina but not yet released will be superior due to some magic/engineering/divine intervention. Personally, I believe in science and established knowledge.

Best regards
Erik




...in which you are the master of... is that correct? ...Where can one see your photography Erik? I mean your ....PHOTO-graphy!  ;)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 21, 2014, 01:43:44 pm
Not my cup of tea... thanks for the offer though... you only have to find another companion in spending your day... (the way you suggested).

Well... the key thing missing here is a working 007 isn't it?...

I guess you didn't notice the irony of your comment about judging based on first hand experience coming after pages of 007 adoration based on a spec sheet?  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 01:49:14 pm
Hi Theodoros,

I have a link to my portfolio to in my signature: http://echophoto.smugmug.com (second line from top). I guess it has been there for 3-5 years.

The images for my next exhibition are here: http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Themes/Berg-dal-och-vatten

Best regards
Erik



...in which you are the master of... is that correct? ...Where can one see your photography Erik? I mean your ....PHOTO-graphy!  ;)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 02:04:38 pm
Hi Theodoros,

I just mentioned my source of income…

But clearly, I have a fascination with nuclear physics dating back to around 1965, when I was given a small book on nuclear physics  written by a hungarian professor called "Öveges". In 1980 I was studying reactor physics for Nils-Göran Sjöstrand who passed away this year.

Sorry for deviating from the thread, but I can give some credit to two persons who had a great importance for my life.

Best regards
Erik

Oh BC... can't you see that the man is a "different" kind of artist? He is posting to MF photography forums as to teach men on how to it... It's the "know how" he knows... What is our trivial photography when compared to nuclear reactors? ...It's "nuclear art" we are talking here! ...all well supported under logic!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 02:10:39 pm
Hi Theodoros,

I just mentioned my source of income…

But clearly, I have a fascination with nuclear physics dating back to around 1965, when I was given a small book on nuclear physics  written by a hungarian professor called "Öveges". In 1980 I was studying reactor physics for Nils-Göran Sjöstrand who passed away this year.

Sorry for deviating from the thread, but I can give some credit to two persons who had a great importance for my life.

Best regards
Erik

No body asked you of your origins or references Erik... It's the S-007 we are (were?) talking about here...

P.S. (edit): Thanks for posting your images... did you ever had any luck with them? (Please don't ask of my opinion)
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 02:20:23 pm
Hi,

Some guys and dolls like my images. You are obviously not among them.

Let me just remind you that you are the one who commented on my profession and asked for my images. It seems your memory is short…

Best regards
Erik


No body asked you of your origins or references Erik... It's the S-007 we are (were?) talking about here...

P.S. (edit): Thanks for posting your images... did you ever had any luck with them? (Please don't ask of my opinion)

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Ken R on November 21, 2014, 02:24:27 pm
Erik, maybe you should also post the ENTIRE frame of the image crops you keep posting. Just to prevent confusion. Also post images of the entire frame and crops of images made using focal lengths with equal angle of view in each format. Again, people just see the crop from the A77 feather image or chart and just see that it looks way better and may not read on the entire writeup and not realize that that with the A77 the equivalent focal length is MUCH longer than what you are using on the P45+ and therefore you are putting MUCH more pixels on the target you are cropping. Posting crops out of the context of the entire frame only paints a small part of the picture. Pun intended.

I am good reading between the lines Erik. And in almost every post the point you just keep hammering is that the medium format solutions and specially the new Leica S is a terrible value and one can get similar or even better results with MUCH cheaper gear. That maybe true if you just take into consideration the QUANTITATIVE aspect of the gear. What can be measured. You forget that there is a HUGE, QUALITATIVE aspect to Photography. Sometimes what is "imperfect" to someone is a desired characteristic to another person. Since you are an Engineer I understand your continuous focus on the purely technical stuff and forgetting about the subjective aspects of Photography (that is where BC comes in). You have almost 8,000 posts. So its no wonder most discussions here are very imbalanced and always end more being about the measurable elements.

A camera is much more than just its sensor, and sometimes even more than the sum of its parts.

Don't get me wrong, the tech part is necessary, well, at least to those who deal with making photo hardware and software. Give a few companies a call. Maybe they are hiring consultants.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 02:25:42 pm
Hi,

Some guys and dolls like my images. You are obviously not among them.

Let me just remind you that you are the one who commented on my profession and asked for my images.

Best regards
Erik


I never comment on your "images" (nor I ever will)... I just asked... "did you ever had any luck with them"? ...it's an irrelevant to the O/P question that one may be right to avoid... but then again, you've been avoiding all my other Qs which where RIGHT ON THE SUBJECT... just to remind you... "the relevance of testing", the "appliance of physics reference"... and all others...
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 02:33:27 pm
Hi BC,

Any comment from you is appreciated.

I don't know if my photography is improved, I may even feel that there may be a degradation since I am shooting MFD.

I joined a workshop with Hans Kruse this year, and I think I learned a lot from that, although I was just shooting Sony with the Hasselblad staying at the hotel.
Nothing beats going up four in the morning, drive for a hour on winding serpentine roads in the dark, shooting at sunrise at some mountain peak and doing the same in reverse each evening.

I am planning on another workshop with Hans Kruse…

Doing experiments is a learning experience…, curiosity is what makes mankind moving forward. Without curiosity we would still be sitting in caves, perhaps making great art…

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

This thread has been good for you as your photography is improving.

Much more interesting than those feathers.

Though just a thought, but I think the first image will make people a little dizzy.

If you sell this as a print, please warn the owners not to hang it near a staircase.

Can't wait to see the next session.

Keep it up.  

BC
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 02:49:31 pm
Hi BC,

Any comment from you is appreciated.

I don't know if my photography is improved, I may even feel that there may be a degradation since I am shooting MFD.

I joined a workshop with Hans Kruse this year, and I think I learned a lot from that, although I was just shooting Sony with the Hasselblad staying at the hotel.
Nothing beats going up four in the morning, drive for a hour on winding serpentine roads in the dark, shooting at sunrise at some mountain peak and doing the same in reverse each evening.

I am planning on another workshop with Hans Kruse…

Doing experiments is a learning experience…, curiosity is what makes mankind moving forward. Without curiosity we would still be sitting in caves, perhaps making great art…

Best regards
Erik

OH Erik, Erik, Erik... you are unbelievable and still don't learn on how to correct things... All this time you are trying to convince BC on how foolish he is on choosing S for his major camera... remember? ...and he is not even using S007... and he did explain to you how great his S2 is... and he does use it as an MFDB only since his lenses are the C645 ones... and YOU STILL DON'T LEARN a bit!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 03:16:39 pm
Hi Theodoros,

Just to say, BC did buy an additional S2 because he feels some mistrust for the CMOS based S. BC also shoots with a Panasonic GH3 which he happens to consider a serious camera, a few Canon EOS cameras and Red.

I don't necessarily share BC's opinion, but I have great respect for his professional work and also his opinion.

Something I may also add is that I have great respect for Leica taking bold steps forward in a shrinking business and making a great turn around. On the other hand I am not attracted by their products.

Best regards
Erik

OH Erik, Erik, Erik... you are unbelievable and still don't learn on how to correct things... All this time you are trying to convince BC on how foolish he is on choosing S for his major camera... remember? ...and he is not even using S007... and he did explain to you how great his S2 is... and he does use it as an MFDB only since his lenses are the C645 ones... and YOU STILL DON'T LEARN a bit!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 03:27:52 pm
Hi Theodoros,

Just to say, BC did buy an additional S2 because he feels some mistrust for the CMOS based S.

Best regards
Erik

Who ever mentioned that? ...Jesus man! ...you are the only one suggesting all this time that he shouldn't!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2014, 03:37:03 pm
Hi,

Theodoros, I talk about BC and not JC.

Very clearly BC is shooting Leica S2 and he is skeptical about the CMOS based S (Typ 007). Who said that?  BC did, many times. What JC is shooting I don't know, if you have good channels of communications you can ask…

Best regards
Erik

Who ever mentioned that? ...Jesus man! ...you are the only one suggesting all this time that he shouldn't!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 03:42:17 pm
Hi,

Theodoros, I talk about BC and not JC.

Very clearly BC is shooting Leica S2 and he is skeptical about the CMOS based S (Typ 007). Who said that?  BC did, many times. What JC is shooting I don't know, if you have good channels of communications you can ask…

Best regards
Erik

Erik, I'm leaving the conversation... you can can clearly have ones ears smoking... All you ever posted is pixel size which is equal on all Leica S and is all you criticise all this time... You may post all irrelevant than questions asked to you all you want... Jesus man!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: bjanes on November 21, 2014, 03:47:25 pm
Hi Theodoros,

Weather is bad, good for testing.

Weather is not related to Leica S (type 007). Well, except it is weather proofed, which is a good thing in my book.

I did answer your questions, as reasonably as I could. May be I am not clear enough, but I have to admit that English is not my first language. So there may be some fine points I miss.

Just to make clear, I am not very religious and I have a deep distrust in marketing messages. You obviously believe that a product announced at Photokina but not yet released will be superior due to some magic/engineering/divine intervention. Personally, I believe in science and established knowledge.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

English is my first language and your explanations are perfectly clear to me and are supported by your images. Perhaps Theodorius is the one who is lacking in comprehension of language and technological matters.  :D

When the MFDB crowd lacked CMOS sensors with their vastly improved read noise characteristics they tried to turn that to an advantage of purported CCD superiority of color rendering and a 6 stop DR advantage. Now they have CMOS but no clear resolution advantage, so the argument changes paradoxically to the talking point that increased resolution would impair image quality.

You have made your point, and further reasoning with Theodorius will likely prove futile.

Regards,

Bill

PS

Thank God he has left the discussion without having contributed anything.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Theodoros on November 21, 2014, 03:58:13 pm
Hi Bluepee-ill... who is Theodorius?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: KAHA on November 21, 2014, 04:17:20 pm
Merci Beaucoup LOL  ;D


- The Photographer is that handsome man with the leather jacket who is standing next to the AD. All the girls at Elle love him, and he is seen at every nightclub, gets the jobs, writes the invoices and as long as he's here he gives the essential instructions like "Run down to Louboutin and get us some matte pumps" or "Liliane, time to sparkle for the next shot, do go and powder your nose". He'll make sure to be seen leaving with a couple of models as soon as the shoot wraps.

- The  assistant is that miserable mousy thing standing next to the camera cart, who has just stepped back from the camera. He really needs to wash his hair, in fact it looks like he should take a bath.  But he won't have much time for that tonight because after the shot he needs to pack everything and then he has to get the first batch of previews retouched.

 You see?  Artists and techies each have the life they deserve. Now, isn't that the way it should always be?

Edmund

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Chris Livsey on November 21, 2014, 04:42:43 pm

Doing experiments is a learning experience…, curiosity is what makes mankind moving forward. Without curiosity we would still be sitting in caves, perhaps making great art…

Best regards
Erik

Erik it isn't curiosity it is being unreasonable, back to GBS:

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"

Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: synn on November 21, 2014, 06:51:07 pm


I don't know if my photography is improved, I may even feel that there may be a degradation since I am shooting MFD.

I joined a workshop with Hans Kruse this year, and I think I learned a lot from that, although I was just shooting Sony with the Hasselblad staying at the hotel.


You know what Erik, I take all my previous recommendations back.

You should definitely sell off all the "inferior " MF gear that is totally holding you back.
Of course, once this is done, I assume you will no longer be interested in MF related discussions and will focus on enlightening the poor souls in some sony forum that don't know yet how good they have it.

One can only hope!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: eronald on November 21, 2014, 10:14:58 pm
Are you sure they're allowed above the stairs?

So what's your point.

IMO

BC

J,

My point is that the tech process *is* all about repetitive tests and numbers and more tests, because it is often about isolating a factor.
Kind of like people expect that when you did an ad, all you did was get a girl dressed and took three shots of her smiling ... but in reality you had all that prep and tons of lights, and had to spend a day taking several hundred images etc.
Most people just look at the final ad. Here we are doing the equivalent of peeking in at the session.

I just got a Sennheiser wireless lav system for the GH4 yesterday, and spent 8 hours or so doing tests at various levels and with different mike placement. I went from horrible sound to usable sound. But if I hadn't done the tests, db setting by db setting, I'd probably have kept horrible sound in my work until the end of days or until someone experienced taught me the error of my ways. And I know that much better sound can still be coaxed from the same system, but if I were working alone I'd need a few days of tests to get there.

Edmund
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: synn on November 21, 2014, 10:20:18 pm
Using some feather shot made by on a P45 on vintage lenses to deduce what a Leica S can do with Leica lenses is like BC doing the styleboard for honey boo boo's mother and deducing how Kate Upton would look in the final images.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: eronald on November 21, 2014, 10:28:12 pm
Using some feather shot made by on a P45 on vintage lenses to deduce what a Leica S can do with Leica lenses is like BC doing the styleboard for honey boo boo's mother and deducing how Kate Upton would look in the final images.

I agree Erik could get a nicer feather :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 22, 2014, 12:31:06 am
Hi Synn,

I didn't say that my inferior MF gear is holding me back. What I say that I am not sure my photography is improved. Very clearly, I shoot MFD for sharpness and that advantage is clearly there. But, shooting MFD the way I do takes some time. I had a split vacation, one week in the Dolomites shooting from 4 AM to 10 PM with some lesson thrown in during the afternoon and got a lot of good images, but I was not shooting MFD. The week after I was shooting the same areas, but in daytime, both shooting MFD and 135 FF and even APS-C.

The images below are all from those two weeks of shooting, some P45+, some 135 FF and some APS-C.
(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Themes/Berg-dal-och-vatten/i-XxmZfzs/0/X3/20140612-CF045214-Edit-X3.jpg)

(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Themes/Berg-dal-och-vatten/i-2r3h64K/0/X3/20140612-_DSC4611-X3.jpg)

(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Themes/Berg-dal-och-vatten/i-SPHjgJF/0/X3/20140604-_DSC6095-X3.jpg)

(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Themes/Berg-dal-och-vatten/i-VxJWrkr/0/X3/20140604-_DSC4093-X3.jpg)

(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Themes/Berg-dal-och-vatten/i-VqG4Mjb/0/X3/20140607-_DSC6131-X3.jpg)

(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Themes/Berg-dal-och-vatten/i-L999Mkt/0/X3/20140613-_DSC4663-X3.jpg)

(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Themes/Berg-dal-och-vatten/i-qbgX2tt/0/X3/20140613-CF045257-X3.jpg)

I am no Sony fanboy, but that is the other equipment I have. Sometimes I feel frustrated with Sony. They were late in doing live view, which was a very big issue for me. They have still only one 36 MP body, one without electronic first curtain. But it seems evident that 46-54 MP cameras are around the corner. Sony perhaps
even releases a decent 85 mm lens, that would be interesting…

I could switch to Nikon and use the Otus lenses, but a switch like that would carry a cost tag similar to buying the Hasselblad. Also, in my view, with digital sensors having live view the flipping mirror is an anachronism. Sure professional DSLRs like Canon 1DX and Nikon D4 still have the best autofocus but manually focusing with live view is what suit my way of shooting best. Anyway, I am pretty sure both Nikon and Canon will go mirrorless within not so many years.

I am actually in no way against MFD, btw, otherwise I wouldn't shoot it. On the other hand I don't see MFD as a miracle cure either. I may also make the point that I am one of the very few photographers sharing raw images from MFD.

I did consider selling my MFD equipment, but only as a kit. I don't want to sit on a lot of pieces I cannot put on a tripod to shoot with. The main reason I considered selling was that I see 50 MP 135 coming my way and my bag is full. How much use will the 39 MP MFD see, with 50 MP in the backpack. Another point, I don't see used MFD prices go up.

Best regards
Erik



You know what Erik, I take all my previous recommendations back.

You should definitely sell off all the "inferior " MF gear that is totally holding you back.
Of course, once this is done, I assume you will no longer be interested in MF related discussions and will focus on enlightening the poor souls in some sony forum that don't know yet how good they have it.

One can only hope!
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: tjv on November 22, 2014, 01:12:30 am
Well, 10 pages of posts and all of them littered with silly, snarky and personal insults.
For goodness sake people, if you don't like the someones opinion or what they have written, or if you feel the thread is going off track, post something intelligent instead of resorting to name calling or belittling someone. This kind of posting is what makes this forum a real drag compared to other more respectful and collegial forums. Perhaps it's time to put this tread to bed? 
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: eronald on November 22, 2014, 01:39:06 am
Erik,

 Your demonstration of aliasing is textbook quality - really, it is so clear that I think it should be reprinted in textbooks for students.

 As for your photography, all I can say is "not bad" :) I would be glad to swap prints with you. By the way, I think it's about time we did another LL print swap.

 But when it comes to small pixels vs large pixels, MF  etc etc. I still think that the only way to figure out how good a sensor/lens combination is going to be is to test it - there seem to be a bunch of hidden non-textbook variables. Of course, in the long run theory will prevail.

Edmund


 
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 22, 2014, 01:51:53 am
Edmund,

I appreciate your kind comments.

Could you elaborate on your idea of print swap?

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

 Your demonstration of aliasing is textbook quality - really, it is so clear that I think it should be reprinted in textbooks for students.

 As for your photography, all I can say is "not bad" :) I would be glad to swap prints with you. By the way, I think it's about time we did another LL print swap.

 But when it comes to small pixels vs large pixels, MF  etc etc. I still think that the only way to figure out how good a sensor/lens combination is going to be is to test it - there seem to be a bunch of hidden non-textbook variables. Of course, in the long run theory will prevail.

Edmund


 
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: telyt on November 22, 2014, 05:55:07 pm
  But when it comes to small pixels vs large pixels, MF  etc etc. I still think that the only way to figure out how good a sensor/lens combination is going to be is to test it - there seem to be a bunch of hidden non-textbook variables. Of course, in the long run theory will prevail.

I agree, in the long run theory will prevail.  On the practical side, in addition to testing particular lens/sensor combinations a particular feather should also be specified ;)  There's a lot of variation in feather structure and with some species and certain feather types aliasing artifacts are almost certain regardless of the lens, sensor and presence or absence of an AA filter.
Title: Re:
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on November 22, 2014, 07:27:34 pm
Is it an African or European feather?
Title: Re:
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 22, 2014, 08:06:10 pm
Is it an African or European feather?

Jesus, I did hesitate a few seconds...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: eronald on November 22, 2014, 10:43:31 pm
Edmund,

I appreciate your kind comments.

Could you elaborate on your idea of print swap?

Best regards
Erik



Hi Erik,

 I've done this once.
 We designate a responsible volunteer Mr. V, preferably one with access to corporate mail :)
 We each send the Mr. V  N prints (A3 or A4, like we decide) of some image we've chosen from our stock.
 Mr. V assembles N books of prints and sends N-1 out, keeping one.
 The prints arrive and we each enjoy the rare experience of holding a print that we didn't make ourselves :)
 
Edmund
 
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: ndevlin on November 23, 2014, 09:36:43 am

This thread is starting to feel like Steven Segal's acting career.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: JV on November 23, 2014, 02:26:30 pm
This thread is starting to feel like Steven Segal's acting career.

As in too long and without any highlights?
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: voidshatter on March 11, 2015, 05:33:04 pm
You know what Erik, I take all my previous recommendations back.

You should definitely sell off all the "inferior " MF gear that is totally holding you back.
Of course, once this is done, I assume you will no longer be interested in MF related discussions and will focus on enlightening the poor souls in some sony forum that don't know yet how good they have it.

One can only hope!

Erik was just trying to demonstrate that aliasing-suppression and detail-reproduction would have been better, if the Leica S007 were to stitch several A77 sensors into a larger one (with smaller pixels), rather than stitching the M240 (with larger pixels). He wasn't trying to to prove that the A77 offers superior image quality than the Leica S007.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: voidshatter on March 11, 2015, 06:12:59 pm
Well, 10 pages of posts and all of them littered with silly, snarky and personal insults.
For goodness sake people, if you don't like the someones opinion or what they have written, or if you feel the thread is going off track, post something intelligent instead of resorting to name calling or belittling someone. This kind of posting is what makes this forum a real drag compared to other more respectful and collegial forums. Perhaps it's time to put this tread to bed? 

Common forum debates: If you can't counter a discussion that your photographic gear is inferior on technical grounds, then just point out that the skills / artistic accomplishments of the photographer is far more important by attacking the opponent's pictures.

I didn't know Erik when I first came here and his posts annoyed me when he pointed out my mistakes directly, but I have to say that his analysis is objective, logical and trustworthy to me.
Title: Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
Post by: Ken R on March 11, 2015, 11:02:29 pm
This thread is starting to feel like Steven Segal's acting career.

Jajaja. Well, I actually enjoy Segal's flicks. They are entertaining. This thread OTOH.... ::)