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Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 124413 times)

hugowolf

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #300 on: August 25, 2014, 11:00:35 pm »

Calling it reddish is being kind to what has to be the ugliest color and jacket cut every created.
I'd measure it with an i1 Pro to give you the Lab values but it would fry the Spectrophotometer.

Perhaps some confusion over the color space when they chose the jacket color? That sRGB AdobeRGB thing seems confusing to me, more than ever since I watched a couple of YouTube vids.

Brian A
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Tibor O

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #301 on: August 26, 2014, 05:32:14 am »

The same video is still on Gary`s Youtube Chanel ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbzXqqeC5vc&list=UUmcCVxfpBsl03Qy8WHkaTQg
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #302 on: August 26, 2014, 05:54:34 am »

The same video is still on Gary`s Youtube Chanel ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbzXqqeC5vc&list=UUmcCVxfpBsl03Qy8WHkaTQg

Indeed :( .

Quote from: Will Crockett
... but when it comes to client jobs, when it comes to everyday stuff, I got to shoot in sRGB too ...

No, he doesn't have to! He converts (from Raw) to sRGB, one hopes.

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #303 on: August 26, 2014, 08:19:05 am »

"More space between the pixels"?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #304 on: August 26, 2014, 08:37:36 am »

"More space between the pixels"?

What he might(!?) be getting at is that the quantization step distance between integer valued RGB coordinates is larger for a larger gamut (the larger 'balloon' but with the same number of discrete steps), which would be correct, if that really is what he is trying to get across. But then I'm an optimist, so I could be misinterpreting him.

I agree that 'space between pixels' is not correct, but then he presumably attempts to lower himself to his perceived level of his audience, one would hope, otherwise it's an insult to their intelligence.

Cheers,
Bart
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TonyW

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #305 on: August 26, 2014, 08:45:37 am »

The same video is still on Gary`s Youtube Chanel ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbzXqqeC5vc&list=UUmcCVxfpBsl03Qy8WHkaTQg
Never heard of the guy until mentioned here but watching the video raises some concerns relating to credibility. 
Early on stating "Colour I am on a couple of those whatever colour expert teams", not quite sure what they are but.."  Surely a person would know exactly what they are?

"Wider space between pixels" ?

On the subject of pro labs printing sRGB I would imagine that all pro labs should be able to handle what you send them and being curious taking two of the names mentioned

Bay Photo
•  We prefer JPEGs but we also accept TIFF's and PNG files.
•  We prefer sRGB and Adobe RGB, but we accept other RGB color spaces.

White House Custom Colour
2. Select a Working Space for RGB Files.
We recommend either Adobe RGB (1998) or sRGB IEC61966-2.1.
If you are unsure, you probably want sRGB IEC61966-2.1.

No idea what these labs use for printing but I would think it likely that the paper profiles exceed sRGB and they should know what they are doing in handling images?
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Czornyj

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #306 on: August 26, 2014, 09:36:06 am »

No idea what these labs use for printing but I would think it likely that the paper profiles exceed sRGB and they should know what they are doing in handling images?

In case of older Noritsu (like QSS3201 etc) with standard EZ Controller it was virtually impossible to make prints from other working spaces. Newer Noritsu like 3701HD, 3801HD finally have such option - you still have to define the colour spaces you want to use, but then the controller recognises the colour space of the image automatically.

Fuji Frontiers always had sRGB mode that behaved like in older Noritsu, and PD mode that used whole gamut of c-print emulsion, but you had to manually convert the images to the paper profile.

Large format wet printers(like Lambda, Chromiar) controllers are colour aware and read ICC profiles embedded to the images.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #307 on: August 26, 2014, 10:20:37 am »

"More space between the pixels"?
Hopefully Gary will get Will to come over here and explain that one!
Will is confused between the colorimetric distance of colors and the distance between pixels. I just tried to explain it to him, let's see how he takes it. Of course what he says is utterly ridiculous and sure to confuse the audience. So yes, another Fong train wreck of a color management video and he hasn't even shown the silly sRGB vs. Adobe RGB (1998) print test video he's working on.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #308 on: August 26, 2014, 10:33:37 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai3xSi_Pwvs
1:25 into video:
In order to get consistent and reliable screen to print match, you really do need to use the sRGB color space.
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smthopr

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #309 on: August 26, 2014, 10:36:33 am »

OK, I admit it.  I read this discussion for...entertainment purposes.

That out of the way, it brings back memories. Of learning Photoshop and color management. (took me a couple days to get my head around the concept)

And I've tried over the years to explain the concept, and I watch the eyes glaze over.  Again and again.  It's kind of like math phobia.  Most people, are just probably never going to get this stuff.  Including, some very talented photographers and cinematographers.  And millions of people who enjoy photography simply for the pleasure of making images.

I saw Will's recent video and the original video by Gary.  Unfortunately more confusing than need be.  So, if you are interested in color management and want to learn all this.  Luminous-landscape is a very good place to start. And the folks here will be happy to assist you!

If it just seems too difficult to comprehend, you can follow Gary and Will's advice and just shoot sRGB.  You'll get the best results from camera to print.  Especially if you use a commercial lab.  They will assume, absent any other notice, that you have shot in sRGB.  So all is good there.

And the best results on the web and in video. (HD Video really does use the sRGB color space!)

If you shoot commercially, and just hand off the files to the client at the end of the day...I guess Will has a point. Just shoot sRGB and hand em' over!

But, please, if you want to understand color spaces, even just a little bit, don't watch these videos.
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Rhossydd

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #310 on: August 26, 2014, 10:41:16 am »

(HD Video really does use the sRGB color space!)
Oh no it doesn't.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #311 on: August 26, 2014, 10:42:02 am »

Unfortunately more confusing than need be.
Confusing and wrong, that's the issue. It can be confusing and correct, I'd be OK with that. That isn't what Will and Gary have provided. Clear and correct is way out of their league too.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #312 on: August 26, 2014, 10:56:30 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai3xSi_Pwvs
1:25 into video:
In order to get consistent and reliable screen to print match, you really do need to use the sRGB color space.


There's a bit starting at around 0:50.  He says that wedding photographers don't need colours outside sRGB, so it's OK for them to use Adobe RGB, as there won't be any colours that won't show correctly on an sRGB monitor.  But for commercial product shooters, shooting vibrant colours (outside sRGB) it's important to use sRGB, or the colours will be wrong on an sRGB monitor.  

Umm...

PS - do you think he's been reading too many Calvin and Hobbes cartoons?  http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/calvin-asks-dad-about-old-black-and.html
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 10:59:33 am by Simon Garrett »
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smthopr

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #313 on: August 26, 2014, 11:11:04 am »

Oh no it doesn't.

I guess you are sort of correct.  I over simplified.  In HD video, we use REC709 space. It has virtually the same white point and gamma as sRGB.  Black and white levels can be different, but one can deliver in "REC709-full range".

And yes, the truth is, that there is no standard gamma in REC709 video either...it's up to the user to set to match their viewing conditions.  Usually 2.2 to 2.4)  My newish HD tv at home came preset to gamma 2.4.  (but I must add that it looks rather closer to 2.2, when set at 2.4!)

And while I'm on the subject,  :) , I sometimes color correct feature films (usually one's I've photographed) and we work in, gulp, REC709.  But release in PCI-d3 space (which is a little bit bigger)  

Why?  I've got 3 deliverables:  Digital movie theaters, film prints for the few theaters that still show them, and HDtv.  My sRGB/REC709 calibrated display shows a gamut that fits entirely into P3 space for digital theater. My work will be viewed identically at the theater after a proper color space transform.

The film print is a different animal entirely. The color space of a film print is quite bigger at certain saturated colors.  But the space is quite smaller in many dark colors, especially flesh tones.  My film print, after our best effort at color space transform, will be limited by the INTERSECTIONS of the REC709/sRGB and film print color spaces.  But, you know what?  It looks pretty darn good when done well.  Nobody complained when they saw Titanic, and every digital effect shot (the majority of the film) was done just this way :).

In the end, when I work in REC709/sRGB, I don't need to do a trim pass of the whole movie to shoe horn it back into REC709. (we have LUT's for the conversion, but sometimes when there is a lot of out of gamut color, you need to adjust the look).  And, the film print is what it is. We assume it's shown in an old theater, with a dim lamp, and cheap tickets...
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smthopr

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #314 on: August 26, 2014, 11:16:05 am »

One last thought:

If we do want to start a discussion about learning color spaces, we might want to start with black and white first.  There is the whole issue about dynamic range conversion, from camera to screen to print.

I think that many, after understanding monochrome, will then find color spaces much more easy to comprehend.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #315 on: August 26, 2014, 11:49:40 am »

One last thought:

If we do want to start a discussion about learning color spaces, we might want to start with black and white first.  There is the whole issue about dynamic range conversion, from camera to screen to print.

I think that many, after understanding monochrome, will then find color spaces much more easy to comprehend.

Is that sRGB black and white or Adobe RGB black and white?   ;)
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Rhossydd

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #316 on: August 26, 2014, 11:58:22 am »

 I over simplified.  In HD video, we use REC709 space.
It's more complex than that. There a range of broadcast standards, but ask a broadcast professional about sRGB and they'll give you a blank look unless they're also photo enthusiasts.

An example might be the range of colourspace options built into the current SOTA HD viewfinder by Sony (HDVF EL75) that has the options to use either ITU709, EBU or SMPTE-C
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #317 on: August 26, 2014, 12:18:47 pm »

PS - do you think he's been reading too many Calvin and Hobbes cartoons?  http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/calvin-asks-dad-about-old-black-and.html
Absolutely right on! Thanks for that link, Simon.

I well remember my first forays into digital photography about ten years ago. I'm pretty sure the default settings on my Canon 10D were sRGB and jpeg, so that's what I started shooting. I never heard of "raw" until I started visiting LuLa.

It wasn't long before I started regretting that those first pix weren't in raw. As my skills with postprocessing  have improved, I have often gone back to redo my earliest raws, but there is little I can do about the first jpegs.

For some types of photography, sRGB and jpegs are indeed perfectly adequate, but urging beginners to make bad decisions for the sake of "simplicity" is cruel.

Gary's videos should all be labeled as "faith-based color management."
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smthopr

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #318 on: August 26, 2014, 12:36:26 pm »

It's more complex than that. There a range of broadcast standards, but ask a broadcast professional about sRGB and they'll give you a blank look unless they're also photo enthusiasts.

An example might be the range of colourspace options built into the current SOTA HD viewfinder by Sony (HDVF EL75) that has the options to use either ITU709, EBU or SMPTE-C

Paul, when do I need to deliver in smpteC? It's rather outdated, no?

I appreciate your broadcast experience, but, I think here, it's just confusing the issue needlessly.

If my concept is incorrect, could you please explain how?

I think my point was that there can be compelling professional reasons to work in a smaller color space. I do capture in the camera, in a larger space. Just like shooting RAW and outputting sRGB for the web.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #319 on: August 26, 2014, 12:51:53 pm »

... It wasn't long before I started regretting that those first pix weren't in raw. As my skills with postprocessing  have improved, I have often gone back to redo my earliest raws, but there is little I can do about the first jpegs.

For some types of photography, sRGB and jpegs are indeed perfectly adequate, but urging beginners to make bad decisions for the sake of "simplicity" is cruel...

I think an analogy is in order: would had it been "cruel" to advise beginners to shoot Kodachrome, and instead advise them to do color negatives, as they could always go back and redo those colors and pull out more dynamic range years later? I started my journey into photography with Kodachrome and never regretted that "cruel" choice. It was a tough love, but made me a better photographer.

In other words, I think we here are unnecessarily "cruel" to Gary and his audience in respect of their choice to shoot jpeg/sRGB. In respect of his explanation, however, I think that the criticism he rightly got should have been less cruel and condescending too.

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