You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.

[torger]

I consider Canon good, that's what I'm used to in terms of live view. I have tried Nikon's briefly and remember that it was considerably worse, but I don't remember that it was that hard to nail focus anyway. However, as I shoot mostly a view camera (Linhof Techno) most of my focusing I do on ground glass with a 20x loupe, so I'm used to evaluating focus in challenging conditions . It just needs to be barely possible to satisfy someone like me.

I think key to a good live view is a quick update rate (so you can wiggle back-and-forth and find the peak) and preferably some sort of sharpening with a little over-sharpening (a little haloing) so it's easier to find the peak.

I've heard the focus mask of the IQ series is supposed to be good, but I don't know if it's available realtime in live view on the IQ250.

[eronald]

I read that too, and it feels a bit odd that the display and image rendering on it (or live view) would not be good enough for sharpness check. I suspect that they're not used to it yet and when you get used to it you can identify what's sharp and not. Otherwise it would be a major problem, but if so it's probably fixable through firmware.

For an additional $10K you get your very own bespoke engineer in a trailer to fix the bugs customize your photographic experience.

Edmund

[torger]

For an additional $10K you get your very own bespoke engineer in a trailer to fix the bugs customize your photographic experience.

 

It's well-known that first releases of digital backs can be a bit buggy, they're not as well-tested as a typical mass-market product. However as bugs are discovered they're fixed in firmware updates, for free.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I just took that sample to show what things look like on my sensor, which is a Sony Exmor at 6 microns, slightly larger pixels than on the IQ250.

Best regards
Erik

I'd say that your example looks better, but it's difficult to compare. Safe to say is that the PDN review sample images does not make the best to show the IQ250 from it's best side. As it looks there it might be that some would prefer sensor plus on an IQ260 for high ISO shooting.

However, as it's Sony that's made the sensor I would expect that the high ISO is very similar to other Sony cameras, possibly slightly worse due to bayer design optimized for color at base ISO, but that would be fractions of a stop.

The raw converter can make a huge difference to the look of a high ISO image. Noise reduction settings of course, but also the demosaicer. I'd love to have a raw file to play with

Comparing a 135 camera with a MF will be a bit difficult though, it's probably better to compare with say IQ260 sensor plus to make a valuable comparison, or why not the current Pentax 645D. I think the 135 cameras will be much better in practice as you can have wider aperture. Ie instead of an 80/2.8 you might be using a 55/1.4 and gain more than 1 stop just in the glass, and if you look at the journalist flagships you gain say one extra stop on the sensor compared to the high resolution CMOS (Sony Exmor was never the best concerning high ISO, unparalleled base ISO DR is its thing), so in a typical high ISO use case comparison with a Canon 1DX or Nikon D4 I think the IQ250 would look like a joke.

I don't think this model is to compete with 135 though (obvious from the price if nothing else), but rather to be a evolutionary improvement of high ISO in medium format space. Remains to be seen who will need it. It seems to me that the best rational way to go would still be to keep your current CCD back and get a flagship DSLR if you need high ISO shots at as good quality as possible. When you're spending this amount of money on gear there should be no problem to have that extra DSLR on the side.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I always use live view (at max magnification) for focusing on my Sony Alpha, far more exact than AF. That is I use it if I can, camera on tripod and a non moving subject.

Best regards
Erik

@torger, I haven't met a single camera where LV works for critical manual focus. It's a total fail on the D800e.  Maybe Canon is better, but who cares.

- N.

[RobertJ]

I'm a bit annoyed that every review of this back has pin-pointed high ISO shooting... Really?!?  Who needs ISO 1600 - 6400 in MF?  I never even push my Canons that far.

Sure it's CMOS, but the live-view is more significant, IMO.  Backs are designed to be moved from platform to platform, camera to view-camera.  No more sliding backs, no more ground glass, yay! 

Let's look at critically focused images using live-view at base ISO and show what the back can really do.  These reviews are really stupid, and for the record, I'm not interested in purchasing the back, but I like that we have sort of a new beginning in MFD.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I essentially agree with your view, but Phase One put a lot of emphasis on high ISO. It may even be a bad thing if they compromised colour rendition for high ISO.

The PDN article had some hints that the display was not good enough for accurate focus. Hopefully we see someone sharing experience.

Best regards
Erik

I'm a bit annoyed that every review of this back has pin-pointed high ISO shooting... Really?!?  Who needs ISO 1600 - 6400 in MF?  I never even push my Canons that far.

Sure it's CMOS, but the live-view is more significant, IMO.  Backs are designed to be moved from platform to platform, camera to view-camera.  No more sliding backs, no more ground glass, yay! 

Let's look at critically focused images using live-view at base ISO and show what the back can really do.  These reviews are really stupid, and for the record, I'm not interested in purchasing the back, but I like that we have sort of a new beginning in MFD.

[Doug Peterson]

I essentially agree with your view, but Phase One put a lot of emphasis on high ISO. It may even be a bad thing if they compromised colour rendition for high ISO.

They did not. More details in a 6-page article I've just submitted to LL for publication. Due to their workshop travel it may take several days to get published.

The PDN article had some hints that the display was not good enough for accurate focus. Hopefully we see someone sharing experience.

I really, really do not understand their comment here.

It's possible they mean hand-held in low-light or something specific. I played with focusing via live view and found it on par with any canon/nikon. Most of my testing was tripod or monopod based, but I find it fairly hard to critically focus using live view hand held with Canon/Nikon as well - preferring to use those on a tripod or monopod when intending to use live view for critical focus.

But I guess it's best to let many people get their hands on it and let opinions form from broad real world use. Our Phase IQ250 launch party in NYC will be February 12. That and similar events throughout the country and world will be a good chance to have a ton of opinions from hands on shooting.

[Doug Peterson]

I'm a bit annoyed that every review of this back has pin-pointed high ISO shooting... Really?!?  Who needs ISO 1600 - 6400 in MF?  I never even push my Canons that far.

Sure it's CMOS, but the live-view is more significant, IMO.  Backs are designed to be moved from platform to platform, camera to view-camera.  No more sliding backs, no more ground glass, yay! 

Let's look at critically focused images using live-view at base ISO and show what the back can really do.  These reviews are really stupid, and for the record, I'm not interested in purchasing the back, but I like that we have sort of a new beginning in MFD.

You don't improve a back to be ok at ISO6400 in order that most people will shoot it at 6400. You do it so that e.g. ISO 800 can be used without hesitation.

Whenever a back launches with a NEW feature the emphasis of the marketing and reviews (and for that matter, forum discussion) will always be on the NEW features. The fact is this back is a Phase One IQ2 back, which, in and of itself, is pretty cool: high resolution capture, great screen, touch interface, fast UI, fast continuous shooting, USB3 and FW800, wireless review and control, Capture One, etc. But there won't be discussion of those features because they are already present in the rest of the IQ2 series and aren't new. The thing that is new is the CMOS sensor which means better live view, higher ISOs, and faster continuos full-res shooting.

[bjanes]

@torger, I haven't met a single camera where LV works for critical manual focus. It's a total fail on the D800e.  Maybe Canon is better, but who cares.

- N.

Nick, this statement takes me aback. Then how do you focus with manual focus lenses such as the superlative Zeiss apochromatic lenses or for that matter with any autofocus lens with manual over-ride? With my Zeiss 135 f/2 I am able to obtain precise focus with live view, more so than with merely focusing via the viewfinder or with use of the focus indicator. In his review of the D800, Diglloyd states that, although live view on the D800 is suboptimal, he is able to obtain pinpoint focus using live view and that live view focusing with the D800 is as good as that with the 5D Mark III. He does suggest a picture control that improves contrast and edge definition with live view on the D800.

I would welcome input from other users of the Zeiss and other manual focus lens on how they achieve focus.

Regards,

Bill

[BernardLanguillier]

I am sorry to say, but having focused manually litterally 10s of thousands of images using the live view of the D800, I am yet to find one that is obviously not focused optimally when reviewed at 100% in PS. I am using various lenses including the Zeiss 100mm f2, 50mm f2.0 and recently the Otus. With Nikon lenses I typically use AF in live view mode with very accurate results on most subjects.

That is done by using the high magnification and checking flickering on edges. It is not sexy but works wonders.

I am very surprised by your comments Nick, have you really tried to make this work???

Cheers,
Bernard

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Nice to hear they didn't compromise on CGA, looking forward to your article!

Best regards
Erik

They did not. More details in a 6-page article I've just submitted to LL for publication. Due to their workshop travel it may take several days to get published.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I always use live view when the camera is on tripod and the subject doesn't move, it works very well.

A problem with live view focusing is focus shift, focusing at maximum aperture, but when stopping down focus shifts. I don't use large aperture lenses, so I have little problems.

Best regards
Erik

It's possible they mean hand-held in low-light or something specific. I played with focusing via live view and found it on par with any canon/nikon. Most of my testing was tripod or monopod based, but I find it fairly hard to critically focus using live view hand held with Canon/Nikon as well - preferring to use those on a tripod or monopod when intending to use live view for critical focus.

[robdickinson]

Pretty sure on canon you can set it to use live view with the selected aperture (or possibly with magic lantern anyhow).

[torger]

Pretty sure on canon you can set it to use live view with the selected aperture (or possibly with magic lantern anyhow).

There's a dof preview button in standard canon, hold it in and aperture closes to the target aperture. The issue with focus shift is only bound to a few specific lens designs though as far as I know so it's not a big problem.

[yaya]

Hi,

I always use live view when the camera is on tripod and the subject doesn't move, it works very well.

A problem with live view focusing is focus shift, focusing at maximum aperture, but when stopping down focus shifts. I don't use large aperture lenses, so I have little problems.

Best regards
Erik

Most MF "electronic" cameras have got a DOF button...with some you can even stop down from the capture software if you shoot tethered; on others you can leave the lens set to the working aperture...

[Theodoros]

Most MF "electronic" cameras have got a DOF button...with some you can even stop down from the capture software if you shoot tethered; on others you can leave the lens set to the working aperture...

Is there a nearby plan for Leaf to release a new MFDB fitted with the new Cmos sensor Yair? …judging from P1's release, there should be….

[eronald]

Is there a nearby plan for Leaf to release a new MFDB fitted with the new Cmos sensor Yair? …judging from P1's release, there should be….

And maybe somebody can explain to me why there need to be two series of backs and double development costs?

Edmund

[MrSmith]

Most boutique brands have a diffusion range.

[torger]

And maybe somebody can explain to me why there need to be two series of backs and double development costs?

It's quite common that an exclusive brand also owns a "budget" brand which sells essentially the same product (ie not double development cost) somewhat scaled down in feature set to sell to a wider market, to those that don't want to (or can't) spend the premium on the exclusive brand.

As far as I understand this is the new role of Leaf. When they were independent they were competitors to Phase One, now they're their budget brand. I'm sure many of the Leaf people is not so comfortable with this, and I think they've succeeded quite well in providing a unique product which embodies the "Leaf experience", you can even prefer their products over Phase One's, but as long as they're owned by Phase One they will never be allowed to lead the market in terms of technology or feature set.

To save development costs (ie reuse Phase One's product technology), Leaf products will always lag behind Phase One's. That Phase One is first with the latest is one key to making it the premium brand, which is quite good for those that want the budget product, as the Leaf product then can be less scaled down than it otherwise would be if it was released at the same time.

Remains to be seen if Leaf will come out with a CMOS product soon. An alternate strategy is to stay low for quite some time until CMOS has found it's users. I don't think anyone really knows yet which users that will be most appealed by this new mix of features.