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Author Topic: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?  (Read 21150 times)

One Frame at a Time

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Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« on: October 16, 2013, 01:02:04 pm »

The new Sony NEX 7a and 7r FF cams look fantastic!  I admit to having a love-hate for Sony.  Having owned an NEX 5, 5r, and 6, while patiently waiting for some decent lenses - till I finally gave up.  Several months ago I  sold my NEX gear to buy into the Fujifilm system.  The lenses for the Fuji cameras are 100% fantastic from my experience with the 18-55 kit lens, the 14mm and the 55-200. 

I was thrilled about the NEX bodies, (especially the NEX 6) sensor, design, and light weight.  The lenses however were another story.  I don't expect much from lenses costing 300 to 500 dollars.  However. variations from lens to lens (the same len model) was ridiculous.  And even a "good" copy was rather poor.  Reading the test results at DXO and others, that seems to extend to nearly all the Alpha mount lenses too (no matter what label they slap on).  The test results on all but one lens (the 70-200 G) look really bad for either sharpness or CA......or both. Its a puzzle as to why their lenses seemed to test so much worse than the competition.  Especially puzzled now having owned a Fuji camera and experiencing the lenses - sharp right out of the box with no cherry picking!

So now Sony has another body that is full frame and exactly what I have always hoped for.  A lightweight, capable FF body,  It even has a dedicated compensation dial like my XE-1, that makes the camera a real joy to use.   But the 24 MP camera is being released with a 200 dollar kit lens??  Seems like they are headed down the same bumpy road as far as lens quality?   Having never owned any Sony FF lenses (relying on the test scores) was wondering if anyone has a good (or bad) opinion or experience with the Sony FF glass? 

Thanks,

Paul
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telyt

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 02:05:44 pm »

I care far more about being able to put my Leica-R lenses on it than about native AF lenses, and for this purpose it looks like a real contender.
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bcooter

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 02:49:12 pm »

When I saw this camera, I thought finally.

I believe FF 35mm has become too large a form factor.  Not that I'm against large cameras, heck I use RED R1's handheld, but 35mm cameras have become huge.

The thing that bothers me with this camera is it's somewhat hobbled. 

FF, great form factor, good analog controls, video, autofocus with multiple points, for video in and out sound.  All sounds good.

But continuous focus at 1.5 to 2.5 fps is really slow in today's world.  28mb per second video is on the bare minimum of current quality and some of the lenses are slow.  F4 negates a lot of reason to use full frame.

What i had hoped for was a Panasonic GH3 on steroids.   The GH3 does great continuous focus, 72mbs video in .mov, has a very simple menu system, beautiful out of can colour,  in and out of sound and a good fast lens set when combined with Olympus primes.

Granted the Sony's high mp count and high iso will surpass the gh3's in still quality, but I just have a feeling that Sony said why make a $2,000 camera that does it all, when we're still selling more expensive cameras?

Maybe I'm wrong, but to me this is the form factor and some usability that 35mm needs to go to stay viable, just add another processor, allow for high bit rate video, faster lenses, the ability to tether and a PC sync.  (yes a PC sync is needed in some situations.)

If it had these functions and faster lenses, I'd buy in today, heck I'd probably even preorder and I never pre order.

IMO

BC
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 03:38:48 pm »

Hi,

I guess that is an interesting application. Actually I assume that Sony expects to sell quite a few A7r to folks having a bunch of excellent lenses with no up to date digital body. I would call that accumulated market.

How good the implementation is? I guess we need to wait and see.

Best regards
Erik


I care far more about being able to put my Leica-R lenses on it than about native AF lenses, and for this purpose it looks like a real contender.
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 03:44:37 pm »

Leica M lenses can be used. Does this mean Zeiss ZM lenses could, too?
Would anybody have an idea if Contax G lenses might be adapted? Flange-to-focal distance 29 mm.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2013, 03:48:12 pm »

Hi,

Absolutely, lens flange distance is not a problem. Minor in accuracies would be handled by live view, if you can focus for infinity, that is.
What may be a problem is lens cast.

Best regards
Erik


Leica M lenses can be used. Does this mean Zeiss ZM lenses could, too?
Would anybody have an idea if Contax G lenses might be adapted? Flange-to-focal distance 29 mm.

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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2013, 03:52:20 pm »

Thank you, Erik! That's great.

Telecaster

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 03:56:52 pm »

Hi,
Absolutely, lens flange distance is not a problem. Minor in accuracies would be handled by live view, if you can focus for infinity, that is.
What may be a problem is lens cast.

Don't forget adapter quality. Tolerances here will have to be very tight.

-Dave-
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 04:03:17 pm »

Yes, but I'm confident that Leitax can do it.

(BS removed)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 04:12:12 pm by Hening Bettermann »
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shadowblade

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 04:14:36 pm »

Don't think of this as a separate camera system, which requires its own proprietary lenses to work. This is practically a full-frame digital back, which can be put behind any lens.

I'm looking forward to having an up-to-date 36MP sensor to put behind my Canon TS-E lenses, and will also be using it with the Nikon 14-24 and other lenses, too. Slow AF (compared to an SLR), but, if I were shooting action, I'd be using an action body anyway.
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Scott O.

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 08:43:01 pm »

Quality has hit the point that I honestly believe the D800 is the last big boy camera I will own. Rumor is that the new Sony uses the same sensors as the D800/E. And the feature set looks to be excellent. When the lens quality catches up, probably next year, that will be the end of the 30 pound pack back for me!

thisgunforhire

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 12:18:14 am »

Quality has hit the point that I honestly believe the D800 is the last big boy camera I will own. Rumor is that the new Sony uses the same sensors as the D800/E. And the feature set looks to be excellent. When the lens quality catches up, probably next year, that will be the end of the 30 pound pack back for me!

The 7r likely uses the same chip, but the implementation will be much more Sony than Nikon, particularly since they have to deal with a smaller, much shallower mount.  If history is any indication between how the two companies implement, the 7r will be noisier than the 800e at like ISOs with more accurate OOC color.
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thisgunforhire

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 12:33:17 am »

Don't forget adapter quality. Tolerances here will have to be very tight.

-Dave-

True, but I wouldn't let that stop me from trying.  The OP's right, Sony has had a problem bringing lenses people really want to use to market for both the Alpha and E mount cameras.  And with such beautiful tools for manual focus available on the cameras, it would be a shame to let them go to waste.  The adapters we've been happily using on the APS-C cameras may not cut it, but that won't remain true for long.  If the manufacturers realize their product isn't working out on the FF cameras, I'm sure they'll be happy to sell us upgrades with the necessary tighter tolerances.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 01:17:47 am »

Hi,

Yes and no. You will need low tolerances for things like photographing flat subjects (like murals) at large apertures but if you have a subject in focus and the rest outside precision does not play into it at all. You focus on your subject, using live view. That's all.


Best regards
Erik

Don't forget adapter quality. Tolerances here will have to be very tight.

-Dave-
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One Frame at a Time

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 09:48:01 am »

I've never been drawn to the legacy lens type of photography.  I like having quick and accurate AF when shooting.  Much of what I shoot is sports, wildlife, (and landscapes).  Manual focus was the only option my first couple of decades in photography.  Guess the shine of AF has never warn off.   I would be fairly happy to use an adapter for my Canon glass to start but so far, all the adapters work at much reduced speed.  Thats a non-starter for me.  Also, any of the adapters including Sony's add weight and bulk that counteract the benefits of the small and light cameras.  Add Sony's A mount adapter, and the weight nearly equals a Canon D6.

It seems amazing (in a bad way) that with computer design and all the improvements in lens design and manufacture techinques, the lenses Sony has offered the last 5 to 10 years are so far behind the pack.  I am REALLY hoping they get their act together for the e FF mount system.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 09:56:15 am by One Frame at a Time »
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Herbc

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 11:16:59 am »

Dunno about the new lenses, as they have not been delivered for the A7r.  The two Zeiss lenses I have for my NEX 7 are quite good, and autofocus.  I am fairly sure the Zeiss FE
lens, a 35mm f2.8, is autofocus (?), and they do offer a 55mm as well.  As to the quality or lack of it from Sony lenses, I don't have any experience.
Sony seems to be conflicted as to whether they are seeking pros or serious amateurs,
or the point and shoot market, thus their zooms do not excite the serious folks.
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One Frame at a Time

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2013, 03:29:17 pm »

Maybe thats the problem.  I'm an avid fan of Zoom lenses.  I like to compose my shots using position and Zoom.  I bought a 14 mm for my Fuji but have not used it much at all.  Figuring it will be useful indoors and in tight quarters.  Fixed lenses always seem too limiting (to me).  Why would Sony have such a hard time making decent zooms?  It can me done.
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AFairley

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 04:05:10 pm »

The 7r with 24-70mm Zeiss f4 weighs a full two pounds less than a D800 with the Nikon 24-70 f2.8.  That difference is the equivalent of two cans of soda hanging off your shoulder.  If the Zeiss is up to snuff, I will seriously think about switching.  I don't need the extra stop of speed for what I shoot.
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Telecaster

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 04:11:33 pm »

Yes and no. You will need low tolerances for things like photographing flat subjects (like murals) at large apertures but if you have a subject in focus and the rest outside precision does not play into it at all. You focus on your subject, using live view. That's all.

Erik, I'm referring to stuff like maintaining proper centering of lens mount flanges relative to the sensor. Roger Cicala's recent article on the subject is worth a read.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters

I own a bunch of Novoflex adapters for my m43 cameras. The article goes some way toward explaining why performance with adapted wider lenses, whether symmetrical or retrofocal, has tended to be so mediocre. The adapter makers, especially those charging $150+ a pop, need to step up their game. One exception: the Yashica/Contax mount Metabones SpeedBooster I recently bought for use with the Blackmagic Pocket Cinecam. It not only maintains dead-on infinity focusing, it also improves corner performance (while widening field-of-view) relative to the same lenses mounted via the Novoflex unit.

-Dave-
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2013, 04:22:12 pm »

Hi,

My point is that if you focus manually or using contrast based AF the subject will be in critical focus, as long as infinity focus ca be reached. Now, the focal plane may be tilted, but you would not notice on normal subjects that have depth. So the problem would be obvious on a test target but far less in real life. Nothing wrong with test targets but real life targets are much less demanding.

Best regards
Erik


Erik, I'm referring to stuff like maintaining proper centering of lens mount flanges relative to the sensor. Roger Cicala's recent article on the subject is worth a read.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters

I own a bunch of Novoflex adapters for my m43 cameras. The article goes some way toward explaining why performance with adapted wider lenses, whether symmetrical or retrofocal, has tended to be so mediocre. The adapter makers, especially those charging $150+ a pop, need to step up their game. One exception: the Yashica/Contax mount Metabones SpeedBooster I recently bought for use with the Blackmagic Pocket Cinecam. It not only maintains dead-on infinity focusing, it also improves corner performance (while widening field-of-view) relative to the same lenses mounted via the Novoflex unit.

-Dave-
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