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Author Topic: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?  (Read 21147 times)

Hening Bettermann

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2013, 04:28:55 pm »

Would you trust a Sonnar 35 mm compared to a ZM C-Biogon 2.8/35?
Impossible to say of course, but...

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2013, 04:39:43 pm »

Hi,

I don't know. Lens cast can be corrected.

If you look into Zeiss naming system, Sonnar means a large aperture system, while Biogon is a symmetrical design. Biogons and digital are not a good combination, at least as of now. The reason Biogons don't work with digital sensors is large chief ray angle.

Best regards
Erik

Would you trust a Sonnar 35 mm compared to a ZM C-Biogon 2.8/35?
Impossible to say of course, but...
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2013, 04:51:16 pm »

Thank you, Erik. Good to know - I had otherwise planned for a Contax G Biogon 2.8/28 and the named ZM-C 2.8/35.

Going a bit shorter, what would you exspect from a Voigtländer  Color Skopar 4.0/25?

Hulyss

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2013, 04:59:13 pm »

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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2013, 06:10:29 am »

Sony are able to do good lenses (as they have shown with A Mount)
NEX I'm not sure what went wrong there few lenses stand out and I think it lost some impact due to that.

FF A7 it's going to be quite hard to produce good lenses with a FF sensor even with offset micro lenses.
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OldRoy

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2013, 06:45:21 am »

Have a look here folks !

http://briansmith.com/sony-a7r-field-test/
I took your advice and looked. Here's the first sentence:

"Sony’s newly announced A7R and A7 are the lightest interchangeable lens cameras ever made."

Er, I think maybe not...
Roy
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2013, 07:29:59 am »

I took your advice and looked. Here's the first sentence:

"Sony’s newly announced A7R and A7 are the lightest interchangeable lens cameras ever made."

Er, I think maybe not...
Roy

It's worth pointing out that Brian is sponsored by Sony, paid to turn up at events and on the freebie list too. Great photographer no question..but I prefer to listen to those who make their own purchases.
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scooby70

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2013, 07:51:38 am »

Just my little opinion on lens adapters and the need for accuracy... I don't think it's an issue.

I've used old Rokkor lenses on my Panasonic G1 for a while now via a very cheap adapter bought off ebay and at 100% they look very sharp on my screen. There may be issues towards the edges of the frame and performance on the test bench may be poor but for real world images I just don't think it's an issue or at least it hasn't been an issue for me to date and I'd be surprised if the actual accuracy of the adapter proves to be a real world issue when using these new Sony's.
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bcooter

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2013, 09:13:12 am »

I think at the start these  cameras will sell on megapixels alone, though when you add up the limited lens line, slow continuous autofocus and slow lenses, once you get past the occasional landscape photographer, anyone that needs faster lenses (which mean large a mounts with an adapter), they might as well stick with standard dslrs, because the price is not that different.

It seems to me that Sony throws a lot of stuff at the wall to see what sticks.  Obviously they can make anything, but just as obvious they tend to switch gears in the middle of production.

If you bought an RX1 last week, it's still viable, but today it became more limited next to the A7 and the NEX has now become stop gap.

Where this leaves the A99 style cameras I don't know, because I'm not sure what they offer that is a step above this camera, other than faster lenses.

I've watched Sony for years in video and stills and though I find a lot of their cameras compelling, there always seems a what if attached.

I still believe there is a market for smaller mirrorless cameras that work in a professional mode, but to get there they need full lens sets, full features that rival the best of the standard dslrs.

Personally I think they'd have been better off if they made this camera an A mount rather than a E mount system, because there is enough legacy A mounts to cover the professional range and newer smaller lenses could be added as time went by, but just like in Video, Sony seems to hold back just a few features to keep the upline products viable.

Maybe in a few years the dust will settle and there will be just one high end line of cameras, but before then will Canon and Nikon respond and surpass whatever Sony eventually gets to?

Since we shoot a lot of motion imagery, my first thoughts go there, or better put go to the fact that nobody produces a combination camera system that does great stills AND great video.

The GH3 really is a video monster, but doesn't have the still quality of the A7 or even the new Olympus omd em-1.   The upside is one set of m43 glass and a Oly and Pana will pretty much cover most all territory of stills and motion, though I'd love to see one camera do both equally well.

I just get the feeling looking at this camera that Sony thought they could out do the Olympus by using the magic FF word and more megapixels and stopped on that point.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 09:16:43 am by bcooter »
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scooby70

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2013, 09:27:51 am »

I don't think that the lens line up or the AF speed (in the real world) will be massive problems for many people, lens line up wise as long as they and others (Sigma?) can add to it in a reasonable time frame all could be well.

Look at Canon... if picking 35, 50 and/or 85mm primes I personally think Sigma would be the way to go as they're arguably the best at each focal length and indeed that's what I did with the 50 and 85mm f1.4's.

I'd buy this camera to use my legacy lenses on and those lenses plus a standard "kit" zoom and maybe a fast AF prime or two could be all I'd need.

I see that they have a 55mm f1.8 but that the 35mm is f2.8, I'd rather it was f1.8 but maybe one will come along. A set of fairly compact primes - 35, 50(ish) and 85mm f1.8's would be nice.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 09:30:41 am by scooby70 »
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Hulyss

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2013, 09:40:23 am »

It's worth pointing out that Brian is sponsored by Sony, paid to turn up at events and on the freebie list too. Great photographer no question..but I prefer to listen to those who make their own purchases.

Ho !! I didn't knew that. My bad. It was just to show what he does with the ZM 18 f4.

But !!!... for the ones who worry about WA lenses on this body (and I'm not sponsored by them ;) ) I found that on the sony site :

http://youtu.be/CWe_ePAHSfk

If it apply on Raws ... what a winner !
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sea-speak

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2013, 12:03:53 pm »

I currently shoot a Canon 5d Mkiii and mostly use my 16-35mm II L, 28mm 1.8, 50mm 1.4, and 85mm 1.8. I use it for street and landscape purposes, for the most part. One of my gripes with the camera is I've never been able to make the AF point selection process feel quick and natural. So I like AF in principle, but in practice I do a lot of recomposing (I know, bad habit). The camera is also quite large, which I don't mind when I'm walking around solely for the purpose of shooting, but if I'm being social along the way I often leave it behind.

I've preordered the A7R with the thought that I could use Leica M mount lenses on it and use focus peaking to "autofocus" in a way that makes more sense to me. I haven't shot rangefinder before but the idea of the Sony 14-EV dynamic range FF sensor in a small package is pretty exciting. I have two immediate questions around this --

1) any thoughts on quality between the Voigtlander and Metabones M to E adapters, or others that may be superior?
2) I'm interested in the Voigtlander lenses, in particular the  21mm 1.8 Ultron, the Nokton 35mm 1.2 II, and the Nokton 50mm 1.5. On paper these look like they offer excellent IQ without Leica prices. Any thoughts on whether these are likely to work well (e.g. how problematic corner/edge issues might be) on the A7R?


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OldRoy

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2013, 12:53:22 pm »

It's worth pointing out that Brian is sponsored by Sony, paid to turn up at events and on the freebie list too. Great photographer no question..but I prefer to listen to those who make their own purchases.
Thanks for the observation. I didn't read on past the first sentence which, whoever he works for (and most of the "big names" are beholden to manufacturers to some limited extent I imagine), is obviously incorrect. If the guy pays so little attention to the introduction what else is he going to misrepresent, intentionally or otherwise? Anyone who is setting himself up as a pundit at least needs to get the factual elements correct.
Roy
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NigelC

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2013, 03:40:37 pm »

The only lenses I still have covering full frame are Zeiss ZE 21/2.8 and 28/2 and Canon 100L IS - could I use all these with the same (Metabones?) adaptor on the A7R? I wonder whether the 21's amazing IQ would survive that.
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Telecaster

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2013, 06:11:38 pm »

I've preordered the A7R with the thought that I could use Leica M mount lenses on it and use focus peaking to "autofocus" in a way that makes more sense to me. I haven't shot rangefinder before but the idea of the Sony 14-EV dynamic range FF sensor in a small package is pretty exciting. I have two immediate questions around this --

1) any thoughts on quality between the Voigtlander and Metabones M to E adapters, or others that may be superior?
2) I'm interested in the Voigtlander lenses, in particular the  21mm 1.8 Ultron, the Nokton 35mm 1.2 II, and the Nokton 50mm 1.5. On paper these look like they offer excellent IQ without Leica prices. Any thoughts on whether these are likely to work well (e.g. how problematic corner/edge issues might be) on the A7R?

I can't comment on E-mount adapters as I've never had my hands on an E camera. On my Micro-4/3 cameras I've used Panasonic & Novoflex M adapters...both work equally well, with the caveat that corner performance with lenses wider than 40mm ranges from meh to yuck. This is the case both with older (though retrofocal) designs like the first Leitz 21/2.8 Elmarit and newer ones like the current Leica ASPH version and Zeiss 21mm ZM. The performance of these lenses on 35mm film is noticeably better.

I also use a Fuji X-E1 with Fuji & Novoflex M adapters. Much the same comments as above apply, though performance is more even center-to-corner than with the m43 cameras. Go figure...I expected the opposite! Curiously the older 21 Elmarit is an exception here to the rule as it performs very nicely. Some sort of synergistic thing, I guess.

The Voigt lenses provide great value and often great performance to match. I don't consider them lesser Leicas or Zeisses at all. The lenses you mention are likely to have the same corner issues (or lack thereof) on the Sony as on digital Leica Ms, with the proviso that Leica uses sensors designed with M lenses in mind and likely also employs deconvolution processing to further mitigate those issues. Note that I've used the 50mm Nokton on an M9...fine & dandy. Don't own & haven't used the other two.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:16:04 pm by Telecaster »
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scooby70

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2013, 07:42:39 pm »

Interesting.

I use a cheap adapter and Rokkor lenses on my Panasonic G1 and edge performance with my 24, 28 and 35mm lenses is better than with my Panasonic 20mm f1.7.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2013, 03:31:56 am »

Hi,

MD wide angles are all retrofocus designs, as are all SLR wide angles. The Leica lenses are more symmetric types and don't mix well with digital sensors.

Best regards
Erik

Interesting.

I use a cheap adapter and Rokkor lenses on my Panasonic G1 and edge performance with my 24, 28 and 35mm lenses is better than with my Panasonic 20mm f1.7.
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scooby70

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2013, 09:33:36 am »

Hi,

MD wide angles are all retrofocus designs, as are all SLR wide angles. The Leica lenses are more symmetric types and don't mix well with digital sensors.

Best regards
Erik


And luckily Rokkor lenses although being quite good are also quite cheap :D
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jgcox

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2013, 07:48:36 pm »

I shoot a lot of film ant have some very nice Leica glass. I've pre-ordered the A7r. I'm just wondering about the C Biogon, and whether I should trade it for a Voigtlander 35 1.2. Any one have any insights?
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: Great new body from Sony! But will they deliver good lenses?
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2013, 06:02:26 am »

Biogons really bygone?

I understand the reasoning that says biogons will have problems with digital sensors. But there seem to be some people who have used them on a Leica M 240 and have not complained. Maybe there is hope anyway??

added: Can one exspect to correct these particular lens weaknesses for digital sensors buy optimized deconvolution?

http://shottobits.com.au/?p=9800
http://www.whereaboutsphoto.com/?tag=leica-m240
https://www.google.com/search?q=biogon+on+Leica+M+240&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lodjUprpF6nM0AWT_4GoDQ&ved=0CHsQsAQ

added:
And what do you think of these 2  Voigtländer lenses:
Pancake II Color Skopar 4.0/25 (144 grams, M-mount), and
SL II Color Skopar 2.8/28 (180 grams in Nikon F mount) ?

These do not seem to be symmetrical lens designs.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:10:39 am by Hening Bettermann »
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