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Author Topic: Photoshop on Win or OSX  (Read 55458 times)

mistymoon

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« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2010, 11:58:27 am »

Quote from: infocusinc
You already set yourself up, and your inabiltiy or reluctance to show us the works that your mac has made above average (compared to the same works produced on a pc) only drives home the point.  

You need a paddle.

Is this the silly season?

I never said that a Mac would produce better photographs than a PC; only that it is more of a pleasure to work on a Mac because it is more attractive, more intuitive, longer-lasting, and a better long-term value than a PC.  But save a few hundred bucks up front and keep buyin' that anti-viral software if it suits you!

Does YOUR computer produce great work for you?  If so, I want to know the brand!
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2010, 01:46:39 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
Is this the silly season?

I never said that a Mac would produce better photographs than a PC; only that it is more of a pleasure to work on a Mac because it is more attractive, more intuitive, longer-lasting, and a better long-term value than a PC.  But save a few hundred bucks up front and keep buyin' that anti-viral software if it suits you!

Does YOUR computer produce great work for you?  If so, I want to know the brand!


Yes it is silly season...mistymoon sez upthread...

"Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!" Most fine photographers aspire to more ..."

I've never in my life spent a cent for AV software and I've had a brace of Mac's and PC's over decades.

My computer does not produce a thing, it only helps ME produce.  Neither brand is truly superior.

I do however love watching fanboys rant.  Thanks for the grins.
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mistymoon

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« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2010, 05:21:12 pm »

Quote from: infocusinc
Yes it is silly season...mistymoon sez upthread...

"Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!" Most fine photographers aspire to more ..."

I've never in my life spent a cent for AV software and I've had a brace of Mac's and PC's over decades.

My computer does not produce a thing, it only helps ME produce.  Neither brand is truly superior.

I do however love watching fanboys rant.  Thanks for the grins.

And I love to read the defensive responses by the PC fanboys; it is always fun to see people try to justify their purchase based on upfront cost alone.  Enjoy your PCs (I DON'T enjoy mine).
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2010, 05:29:35 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
And I love to read the defensive responses by the PC fanboys; it is always fun to see people try to justify their purchase based on upfront cost alone.  Enjoy your PCs (I DON'T enjoy mine).

You have foot in mouth once again.  I've not tried to justify anything, and I've owned  and used both PC and Mac.  Quit while you are behhnd.
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mistymoon

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« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2010, 05:59:34 pm »

Quote from: infocusinc
You have foot in mouth once again.  I've not tried to justify anything, and I've owned  and used both PC and Mac.  Quit while you are behhnd.

I own and use both currently.  Can't let it go, can you?
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2010, 06:27:26 pm »

OK, let's revert this discussion back from silliness and try to accomplish something of value to people who are on the fence about which system to buy into. We know all these major imaging programs will do the same things on both platforms save for compatibility glitches which open from time to time and eventually get fixed directly or by workarounds.

The real questions are about performance speed, system stability, multi-tasking, security requirements, back-up facilitation, and service quality for the price. For all you folks reading this and operating both systems, are you set-up to compare apples with apples, and if so, on these criteria, which is preferable in your opinion? Forget all the BS about appearance and who you need to impress.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2010, 06:46:59 pm »

Quote from: Mark D Segal
OK, let's revert this discussion back from silliness and try to accomplish something of value to people who are on the fence about which system to buy into. We know all these major imaging programs will do the same things on both platforms save for compatibility glitches which open from time to time and eventually get fixed directly or by workarounds.

The real questions are about performance speed, system stability, multi-tasking, security requirements, back-up facilitation, and service quality for the price. For all you folks reading this and operating both systems, are you set-up to compare apples with apples, and if so, on these criteria, which is preferable in your opinion? Forget all the BS about appearance and who you need to impress.

The only winning move is not to play the game, I think, Mark

Everyone has personal preferences and even with the excellent criteria you've mentioned there's a degree of subjective evaluation involved which means some people will prefer one over the other and that's perfectly fine, accurate and reasonable.

The only issue I think you'll Mac really has an advantage is that at the moment OS X isn't targetted as heavily by trojans, viruses, malware, etc.  It's not immune, but it is very robust and less of a target and that does translate into a potentially more secure environment.  That said, in all the time I've used computers that were somehow attached to an external network (and that dates back to 1991 with an Amiga 2000) I've never had a system compromised by a virus.  Just a small amount of care and some free software these days should keep you entirely safe.

For speed - it's the same hardware base (Macs do offer Xeon more readily than PC vendors which can give you better performance at the extreme end, but if you're doing an apples to apples then the hardware will be the same).  Most benchmarks will show there's no particular advantage for either platform, although at various points in the product cycle you may find some new feature benefitting one or the other.

Stability - I see Macs at work crash about as often as the PCs doing similar roles, which is to say very in frequently.  Certain apps are more prone to crashing, but that not the same as the underlying OS.  I think historically Macs have had an edge here - closed hardware options should result in better stability.  If you stick with high end PC components, though, from major vendors, you won't see much in the way of issues.  This is particularly true of the 64bit versions of Vista and now even more so Win 7.

Back ups - Time machine is very cool.  Similar utilities exist for Windows (and have done for years).  Backups under Win 7 are simple, effective, create drive images that you can boot from, transfer, access and change and so forth.  No real differences here.

Service quality for price - I think Apple charges at the high end and their service is good.  Good enough to justify the price, but not a key benefit in terms of value.  For PCs, it obviously depends on vendor but at the end of the day I think you can get reasonable service at the high end of the price range that's pretty much on par.  You can get cheaper and better service, but it means finding the right place which is not always easy and if comparing apples to apples, then we're talking about major vendor support.  This will be one of the more subjective issues and certainly varies from location to location.

For me, the differences are so minor that it comes down entirely to personal preference.  I have zero problem sitting down at one of the Macs and using it, but I prefer Windows - that's all there is to it.  OS X is not more intuitive to me - it's less so.  That, without question, is a result of my previous experience with various computers and how I work and my personality and all the things that contribute to such things.  There's no right or wrong :-)  I think if you feel like a change, then changing is fine.  It's not really that much of a pain to swap from one platform to the other - it's just potentially costly if you need to replace software or other peripherals and the like, but then we typically need to do that every few years anyway.

Of course, if we really want some zeal we should invite the Linux folks to comment :-)
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2010, 06:52:21 pm »

Thanks Phil, this is very insightful.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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ablankertz

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« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2010, 09:21:12 pm »

Quote from: Farmer
For speed - it's the same hardware base (Macs do offer Xeon more readily than PC vendors which can give you better performance at the extreme end, but if you're doing an apples to apples then the hardware will be the same).  Most benchmarks will show there's no particular advantage for either platform, although at various points in the product cycle you may find some new feature benefitting one or the other.
No. If you can use a screwdriver and have enough computing ability to use a raw converter, you can build your own overclocked PC that will blow the doors off any Mac. When you factor in bang for the buck, Macs don't even make it to the starting line.
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joofa

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« Reply #89 on: May 05, 2010, 09:32:35 pm »

Quote from: Farmer
Of course, if we really want some zeal we should invite the Linux folks to comment :-)

I think I mentioned this point that Mac OS = Gui-based OS (Similar to Windows) + BSD Unix flavor (Linux like). So it has the best of both worlds. Please read this message:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=362879

where I pointed out that Macs are a wonderful combination of these features of the OSes for those who need it. You can of course get Linux-like behavior on Windows with Cygwin/Msys/Intrerix as an optional install, since that does not come with Windows. However, unfortunately, at least with Cygwin/Msys you don't get all the power, though, you do get a lot.

Only if Windows let me had good enough symbolic links my life would have been so easier ....  

Joofa
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jjj

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« Reply #90 on: May 05, 2010, 09:58:47 pm »

Quote from: Mark D Segal
OK, let's revert this discussion back from silliness and try to accomplish something of value to people who are on the fence about which system to buy into. We know all these major imaging programs will do the same things on both platforms save for compatibility glitches which open from time to time and eventually get fixed directly or by workarounds.

The real questions are about performance speed, system stability, multi-tasking, security requirements, back-up facilitation, and service quality for the price. For all you folks reading this and operating both systems, are you set-up to compare apples with apples, and if so, on these criteria, which is preferable in your opinion? Forget all the BS about appearance and who you need to impress.
A sensible suggestion. I use and know both very well and my view is that I'm a bit more productive on a PC, if for no other reason than I do not have to switch to another OS to do certain tasks that are faster/easier on a PC, than in OSX.  
And despite all the wild claims by deluded fanbois like mistymoon, I've had numerous issues with my MacPro and as it happens so have the majority of people I know who also use Macs, not to mention the yellow screened iMacs of late. Though others will have had no problems at all, just like most PC users don't have problems either. As for the virus nonsense, if Apple's OS ran on 90+5 of the world's computers, then it would be the target of the hacker and they'd ignore MS.
Both OSs are very good and both are also really stupid in places. My ideal computer would have best aspects of both in one OS, for now I use Macs with Windows in boot camp/virtualisation as well as my venerable old PC laptop.
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duane_bolland

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« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2010, 10:02:39 pm »

Quote from: Farmer
For me, the differences are so minor that it comes down entirely to personal preference.

I totally agree.  

I'll add that switching between one and the other is a mental strain.  I use PCs at my non-photo job and a Mac for photography.  It took me 2 months to get comfortable with the Mac.  After a long stretch on my PC, I easily get annoyed with the lack of a real Delete key on the Mac.  After a long stretch on my Mac, I get frustrated with the inferior trackpad on my PC.  

Furthermore, the Command key on a Mac is the same basic function as the Ctrl key on the PC, but it is in the PC's Alt key's location!  In other words, copying on a PC is Ctrl-C, but on a Mac it is effectively an Alt-C.    

Warning! Photoshop related content:  Another issue with the Mac is the lack of dedicated Function keys, which I use in Photoshop.  F1, F2, etc..  Apple doubles up the Function keys with other useful tasks, like adjusting speaker volume.  If you really want an F-something, you need to press the "fn" key at the same time.  This is tolerable, but I would have preferred a row of dedicated F-keys.  

Someone else complained about iTunes.  Yep, I agree.  iTunes is a media whore.  I don't use it.  

Neither tool is perfect and they are different enough that switching back and forth is annoying.  But I'm sticking with my Mac despite it being less than perfect.    But, please, buy a Dell if you want.  


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jjj

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« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2010, 10:19:54 pm »

Quote from: Farmer
Service quality for price - I think Apple charges at the high end and their service is good.  Good enough to justify the price, but not a key benefit in terms of value.  For PCs, it obviously depends on vendor but at the end of the day I think you can get reasonable service at the high end of the price range that's pretty much on par.  You can get cheaper and better service, but it means finding the right place which is not always easy and if comparing apples to apples, then we're talking about major vendor support.
3 year warrantees are not unusual with PCs, yet Mac charge for such support.

Quote
For me, the differences are so minor that it comes down entirely to personal preference.   There's no right or wrong :-)  I think if you feel like a change, then changing is fine.  It's not really that much of a pain to swap from one platform to the other - it's just potentially costly if you need to replace software or other peripherals and the like, but then we typically need to do that every few years anyway.
I'd agree except to add certainly cost in to the equation and if you are a Pro, the time [and therefore cost] in learning the new OS. There are lots of little differences that are worth learning to make the best of either system.
I only have some Mac computers as I could afford the much greater prices. Most people cannot afford them or would rather spend the money on say a new lens - which will quite possibly make a bigger difference than using either OSX or Win7.   I could have got a several L series lenses if I'd bought equivalent PC kit!


One way in which I think OSX is waaay better than Windows is software installing. I decided to buy a new, more powerful laptop the day before before a job abroad. I bought a MBP as I knew I could simply move my MP install across
with all my settings intact. Though having said that, it was not without problems the very expensive FW cable I had to buy to do this failed to work, [though may have been a laptop problem as I had other issues with FW not working]. As a result I had to use much slower ethernet instead after several wasted hours not solving the FW problem. I only just got things done! But with Windows, I'd have to install everything from scratch and customise each programme and the OS to my liking - a couple of days work. Installing software is generally easier, but just like with Windows, programme preferences are very annoyingly scattered all through the OS.
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jjj

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« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2010, 10:29:16 pm »

Quote from: duane_bolland
I easily get annoyed with the lack of a real Delete key on the Mac.
I loathe the inconsistent confusing behaviour of the backspace/delete key on the Mac and the lack of a proper [forward] delete on the laptops.

Quote
Furthermore, the Command key on a Mac is the same basic function as the Ctrl key on the PC, but it is in the PC's Alt key's location!  In other words, copying on a PC is Ctrl-C, but on a Mac it is effectively an Alt-C.  
You can swap the Command and Cntrl keys on the Mac [ironically so as to be able to use Win keyboards] to be like the more ergonomic Win layout.

Quote
Someone else complained about iTunes.  Yep, I agree.  iTunes is a media whore.  I don't use it.
Even worse is Finder or anything to do with File management with Apple software come to that.


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Farmer

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« Reply #94 on: May 05, 2010, 10:54:36 pm »

Quote from: ablankertz
No. If you can use a screwdriver and have enough computing ability to use a raw converter, you can build your own overclocked PC that will blow the doors off any Mac. When you factor in bang for the buck, Macs don't even make it to the starting line.

I see this a lot.

Overclocking is great.  It's cheap and it is an advantage on PCs and you don't even need a screw driver for minor overclocking, but there's a whole different level of performance when you talk workstation specs vs desktop specs (ie Xeon vs i7 as an example) when you look at memory performance and real multitasking capacity.

In terms of real world performance that doesn't include gaming, overclocking is only of limited benefit.  PS users already understand that more memory, rather than fast memory is the key and the major bottleneck then is hard drive speed.  After that, the ability to do more things at once (where workstations leave desktops for dead) is the next thing.

If you really want to overclock hard and maintain stability so that you can reliably use it for a production tool, you need to spend up to get proper cooling and appropriate memory and you still won't have a workstation class machine.  You can get them in PC or Mac, but Apple offers them more prominantly than typical PC vendors.
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Phil Brown

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« Reply #95 on: May 05, 2010, 10:57:29 pm »

Quote from: jjj
One way in which I think OSX is waaay better than Windows is software installing. I decided to buy a new, more powerful laptop the day before before a job abroad. I bought a MBP as I knew I could simply move my MP install across
with all my settings intact. Though having said that, it was not without problems the very expensive FW cable I had to buy to do this failed to work, [though may have been a laptop problem as I had other issues with FW not working]. As a result I had to use much slower ethernet instead after several wasted hours not solving the FW problem. I only just got things done! But with Windows, I'd have to install everything from scratch and customise each programme and the OS to my liking - a couple of days work. Installing software is generally easier, but just like with Windows, programme preferences are very annoyingly scattered all through the OS.

You can do this with Win 7 so long as the same chipset is on both machines (one of the advantages of Mac is closed hardware).  If you compare apples to apples, though, you would be moving from one PC to another PC with the same chipset.  In such a scenario, you should be able to create a VHD backup and then restore it to another disk in the new machine and fire it up and have it work.  It may need to update a driver or two, but then it should be fine.

I think this is easier on a Mac, but doable on a PC.
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Phil Brown

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« Reply #96 on: May 05, 2010, 11:08:16 pm »

Quote from: jjj
I loathe the inconsistent confusing behaviour of the backspace/delete key on the Mac and the lack of a proper [forward] delete on the laptops.

Agreed.  Is there anyway to do a forward delete (ie PC style "del" rather than "backspace") on an iPhone?  On a small format device, not being able to delete in both directions is driving me crazy - I'm hoping I've missed something!
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jjj

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« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2010, 02:10:28 am »

Quote from: Farmer
Agreed.  Is there anyway to do a forward delete (ie PC style "del" rather than "backspace") on an iPhone?  On a small format device, not being able to delete in both directions is driving me crazy - I'm hoping I've missed something!
Seeing as the only workaround to such a stupid behaviour on a  Mac laptop or wireless keyboard is to use function key and backspace or go go forward in text and backspace to remove text, I'd be surprised.
This sort of very clumsy and sadly not uniquely so behaviour makes a mockery of Apple's claims to be easy to use/intuitive.
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jjj

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« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2010, 02:18:09 am »

Quote from: Farmer
You can do this with Win 7 so long as the same chipset is on both machines (one of the advantages of Mac is closed hardware).  If you compare apples to apples, though, you would be moving from one PC to another PC with the same chipset.  In such a scenario, you should be able to create a VHD backup and then restore it to another disk in the new machine and fire it up and have it work.  It may need to update a driver or two, but then it should be fine.

I think this is easier on a Mac, but doable on a PC.
What about moving my Win7 from say my MP Boot Camp to my MBP boot camp? 8core to 2 Core?
I'm going to do fresh installs of everything, before installing CS5 Master suite and also upgrading desktop to Snow Leopard as most of the problems seem to have been fixed, so if I can do a clean W7 install on one machine and simply transfer it to the other, that would be fantastic..
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Farmer

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« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2010, 04:22:52 am »

Quote from: jjj
What about moving my Win7 from say my MP Boot Camp to my MBP boot camp? 8core to 2 Core?
I'm going to do fresh installs of everything, before installing CS5 Master suite and also upgrading desktop to Snow Leopard as most of the problems seem to have been fixed, so if I can do a clean W7 install on one machine and simply transfer it to the other, that would be fantastic..

Hmm, I don't know.  8 Core from 2 Core means two processors from one, so that might present a problem.  I had been under the impression that just changing cores was an issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case (which is great).  It's certainly worth trying!
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