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Author Topic: Photoshop on Win or OSX  (Read 55264 times)

PeterAit

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« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2010, 08:24:29 am »

Quote from: mistymoon
Those who complain about the cult of Mac fail to realize how much the Windows platform has been helped by competition from Apple.

This is certainly true. But those who complain that many improvements in Windows were "stolen" from Apple conveniently overlook that fact that Apple "stole" most of its fundamental ideas from Xerox PARC.
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mistymoon

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« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2010, 10:05:07 am »

Quote from: PeterAit
This is certainly true. But those who complain that many improvements in Windows were "stolen" from Apple conveniently overlook that fact that Apple "stole" most of its fundamental ideas from Xerox PARC.

Xerox PARC had not been brought to market; Apple made the brave decision to monetize the concept.  Windows 95 was a copycat of Mac.  The truth is, without Apple's pioneering, computing would be ten years behind where we are now.  But your point is well-founded:  The Pirates of Silicon Valley is a great little movie that tells the early story of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and where they stole their ideas from, with Noah Wiley as Steve Jobs.

If you look at print and TV ads that happen to show a laptop, note that a huge share use a MacBook Pro, most with the logo digitally removed.  The MacBook Pro has evolved to be what all other laptops aspire to look like and is the epitome of clean and zen-like laptop visual design.  As a photographer favoring clean and elegant images, I prefer working on machines that are equally clean and elegant--rather than something that looks like it was sold at Wal Mart.  The local professional camera supply store bought Dell all-in-one computers for its sales stations that were designed to compete with the iMac; they were SO ugly that they hurt my eyes.
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Pete_G

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« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2010, 12:40:46 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
If you look at print and TV ads that happen to show a laptop, note that a huge share use a MacBook Pro, most with the logo digitally removed.  The MacBook Pro has evolved to be what all other laptops aspire to look like and is the epitome of clean and zen-like laptop visual design.  As a photographer favoring clean and elegant images, I prefer working on machines that are equally clean and elegant--rather than something that looks like it was sold at Wal Mart.

Yes, you're absolutely right. I too make all my computer purchases based on what is lying around in print and TV adverts, which despite what Chomsky says, represent the highest levels of human knowledge and culture.
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duane_bolland

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« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2010, 01:15:47 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
The MacBook Pro has evolved to be what all other laptops aspire to look like and is the epitome of clean and zen-like laptop visual design.  As a photographer favoring clean and elegant images, I prefer working on machines that are equally clean and elegant--rather than something that looks like it was sold at Wal Mart.  The local professional camera supply store bought Dell all-in-one computers for its sales stations that were designed to compete with the iMac; they were SO ugly that they hurt my eyes.

Well stated and I couldn't agree more.  

Back in the day, I enjoyed the challenge of building my own PC.  The catch is that it never worked right     and looked ugly.  Now I'm more than willing to pay extra for something that is well thought out, sexy and just plain works.  Steve Jobs may be an a$$, but his products are top notch.  By controlling the hardware and software, Jobs has made the overall experience very enjoyable.  I think I've installed only three after-market programs: Photoshop, Firefox and Text Wrangler.  

On a PC, by contrast, I would have needed to uninstall ten demo programs, then wiped the registry of vendor BS running in the background, and then downloaded Winzip, Acrobat, anti-virus software, backup software, and it goes on and on.  

Yes, this discussion has decayed into a Mac versus PC argument.  To each their own, I guess.  In my case, moving to a Mac was most stress releasing computer thing I have ever done.      That's all I'm saying.
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PeterAit

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« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2010, 01:46:45 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
Xerox PARC had not been brought to market; Apple made the brave decision to monetize the concept.  Windows 95 was a copycat of Mac.  The truth is, without Apple's pioneering, computing would be ten years behind where we are now.  But your point is well-founded:  The Pirates of Silicon Valley is a great little movie that tells the early story of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and where they stole their ideas from, with Noah Wiley as Steve Jobs.

If you look at print and TV ads that happen to show a laptop, note that a huge share use a MacBook Pro, most with the logo digitally removed.  The MacBook Pro has evolved to be what all other laptops aspire to look like and is the epitome of clean and zen-like laptop visual design.  As a photographer favoring clean and elegant images, I prefer working on machines that are equally clean and elegant--rather than something that looks like it was sold at Wal Mart.  The local professional camera supply store bought Dell all-in-one computers for its sales stations that were designed to compete with the iMac; they were SO ugly that they hurt my eyes.

Choosing a computer based on what it looks like choosing a painting to hang on your wall based on what it tastes like. In any event, my Dell is under my desk where the dust bunnies have long conversations about its aesthetic qualities   .
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mistymoon

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« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2010, 02:45:21 pm »

Quote from: Pete_G
Yes, you're absolutely right. I too make all my computer purchases based on what is lying around in print and TV adverts, which despite what Chomsky says, represent the highest levels of human knowledge and culture.

The aesthetics of Macs are clean and beautiful, which is why they are shown in ads.  The cluttered plastic creations of Dell and HP, not to mention the flimsy netbooks, won't help establish an image to help sell products.  Instead, they scream "Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!"  Most fine photographers aspire to more ...
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jjj

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« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2010, 04:55:21 pm »

Quote from: PeterAit
Choosing a computer based on what it looks like choosing a painting to hang on your wall based on what it tastes like. In any event, my Dell is under my desk where the dust bunnies have long conversations about its aesthetic qualities   .
But people 'taste' with their eyes when it comes to choosing food!
But there's no getting away from the fact that people like pretty shiny things, even if they are badly designed and ergonomically compromised in order to look a bit better. I believe in form follows function [which can also lead to very good design] not form compromises function, which is a problem I have with Apple kit.
I think it is ironic that a photographer, dismisses looks as not being important.  

My first thought when trying to buy my first computer many years ago was that if someone were to make a computer that wasn't an ugly beige box, they would sell far more than their competition. And at that time, even Apple computers were as ugly as PCs were. So when the iMac came out it was a huge hit as it was colorful and cute and helped turn Apple's fortunes around.
The vast majority of people have no idea about computing or what's inside the box and have no interest in such things, so will be swayed by looks. Apple simply capitalize on this and target those who like pretty shiny things - which is very good marketing. Which is what Apple really, really excels at, not computers, phones or music players. They are marketing geniuses and spend very, very heavily on marketing and are extremely adept at media manipulation. Now if their computers were even half as good as their PR, then ironically they wouldn't have to spend so much on advertising as you'd have amazingly good word of mouth. As opposed to rabid Macolytes, sounding like cult members raving about their sect, which many people find off putting.

And if anyone thinks Ives is a design genius, making really innovative products, this may be of interest.
Ives 'inspired' by Braun.


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PeterAit

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« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2010, 05:50:03 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
The aesthetics of Macs are clean and beautiful, which is why they are shown in ads.  The cluttered plastic creations of Dell and HP, not to mention the flimsy netbooks, won't help establish an image to help sell products.  Instead, they scream "Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!"  Most fine photographers aspire to more ...

Do you choose your cameras and lenses based on what they look like? Your printer? Your network storage device?

I believe that what you say is true - Apple products have an "image" that can help sell things (mainly Apple products themselves, witness the geniuses who line up at 4 AM to buy the latest over-priced and over-hyped Apple gadget). But, that's not the way I like to work - I prefer substance over style. There are places where style and aesthetics are important, and places where they are mere window dressing obscuring what is really important. I find that emphasizing this is shallow and meaningless, although a lot of people have certainly ridden this philosophy to financial success.

Do you really believe your quote above "cheap and good enough for average work?" I have always believed that it was an artist's skill, dedication, and aesthetic vision that informed the quality of his work, and not the price tags on his tools.
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2010, 06:10:35 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
"Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!"  Most fine photographers aspire to more ...


So, you gotta link so we can all see the way above average work you produce on your mac?
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mistymoon

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« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2010, 07:09:37 pm »

Quote from: PeterAit
Do you choose your cameras and lenses based on what they look like? Your printer? Your network storage device?

I choose everything based partly on its exterior design; all else being equal, that is a crucial deciding factor.  Do you choose a living room chair based solely on its cheapness, or does the fabric/leather color and texture and ergonomics make a difference to you?  Is the cheap look "good enough?"  When you buy a car, does the "look" matter to you, or is it simply an appliance?  I, for example, hate Toyota products because I think their designers produce cars that are a mish-mash of design, created to appeal to the "average" buyer.  Several months ago, you might have argued back "Yeah, but they're still the best cars on the road."  Many recalls later, you might start to question their mechanical and electronic design in addition to their surface design.

I have Macs and a PC, and I loathe the PC for so many reasons that I can't even list them all here.  Prime is the need to constantly update anti-virus software.  Second is the primitive and undesigned look of Windows XP.  Yes, yes, the newer versions were updated to copy the Mac look, but this computer is not powerful enough to try to update.

Yes, the PC can do essentially everything the Mac can do, cheaper and with less style.  But the public seems to be voting with their wallets; Apple stores are crowded with customers at every hour and Apple has become one of the largest and fastest growing companies in America.  Where is Dell today, besides frantically trying to copy Apple's designs?  What innovative work is Microsoft doing?  Please, enlighten us with how PCs are better than Macs in ANY way other than cost.


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jjj

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« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2010, 07:37:02 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
The aesthetics of Macs are clean and beautiful, which is why they are shown in ads.  The cluttered plastic creations of Dell and HP, not to mention the flimsy netbooks, won't help establish an image to help sell products.  Instead, they scream "Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!"  Most fine photographers aspire to more ...
A professional buying a tool as it looks prettier is not thinking very professionally. And don't forget most people cannot afford Apple kit, they aim at the higher end and ignore the less well off. One of the reasons they are so profitable.

Another reason Apple product are shown so much in the media is that media types are more likely to use a Mac, for historical reasons that have nothing to do with Macs being better or prettier than PC.
Something like 50% of professional photographers use Macs, even though only 4% of the total population own Macs.
But for many people Netbooks are ideal tools and will outsell the far less useful and way more expensive iPads by a huge margin and yet Netbooks will get a tiny fraction of the media attention.
In many areas, Apple are rarely the first to do something, they are not innovators in that respect, they take what others are doing and market it much better.
I had a nice sleek  aluminium case for my PC when Macs were still packaged in tacky plastic. Bu they were made by a company whose annual turmover is probably way less than Apple's spend on advertising per day.

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jjj

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« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2010, 08:30:19 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
I choose everything based partly on its exterior design; all else being equal, that is a crucial deciding factor.  Do you choose a living room chair based solely on its cheapness, or does the fabric/leather color and texture and ergonomics make a difference to you?  Is the cheap look "good enough?"  When you buy a car, does the "look" matter to you, or is it simply an appliance?  I, for example, hate Toyota products because I think their designers produce cars that are a mish-mash of design, created to appeal to the "average" buyer.  Several months ago, you might have argued back "Yeah, but they're still the best cars on the road."  Many recalls later, you might start to question their mechanical and electronic design in addition to their surface design.
Mac ergonomics suffer from their looks before functionality ethos and Steve Jobs's hatred of buttons - is he part Amish or something?

Quote
I have Macs and a PC, and I loathe the PC for so many reasons that I can't even list them all here.  Prime is the need to constantly update anti-virus software.
My Mac is updating the Apple software on a fairly regular basis for bug fixes and security alerts too. And ironically the most damage and inconvienience ever done to any of my computers by software  was when  iTunes decided to pointlessly rearrange all my carefully arranged music folders without asking me first. Typically Apple in that they assume they know better than you about how things should be filed and as a handy side effect make it very hard for you to change to any other software as they arrange in a really stupid only makes sense to Apple software way.
I use Apple computers, but as little of their software as I can, as I do not like being trapped into such a controlling a system. Their software is often buggy as hell [best wait for the 4th update to the OS before installing it], badly designed, simplistic and apparently aimed at people with no demands. The good stuff Final Cut, Logic was designed/invented elsewhere and then bought by Apple.


 
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Second is the primitive and undesigned look of Windows XP.  Yes, yes, the newer versions were updated to copy the Mac look, but this computer is not powerful enough to try to update.
Funny as Apple have emulated Windows too. Besides if you actually knew what you were doing, you could simply change the look of windows to be just like a Mac if you wanted, as unlike OSX, you can completely alter and re-skin the look of windows, to suit yourself.

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Yes, the PC can do essentially everything the Mac can do, cheaper and with less style.
And also more expensively and with many different styles too, not everyone likes the minimalist Mac look.

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But the public seems to be voting with their wallets; Apple stores are crowded with customers at every hour and Apple has become one of the largest and fastest growing companies in America.
Buying iPhones and iPods, Apple dropped the word 'computers' from their name a while back as that is not their main business anymore.
 
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What innovative work is Microsoft doing?
Apple are not innovators, they polish up other people's clever ideas and market them brilliantly. As for MS, Project Natal would be one thing that springs to mind, Their tablet like device was also sooooo much more interesting than the underwhelming iPad, but suddenly and sadly dropped, a shame as it was very clever and an impressive new way of using a computer device, there's also the fact that Gates is now spending all his billions on things like curing poverty, eradicating AIDS and other such quite good things.
 
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Please, enlighten us with how PCs are better than Macs in ANY way other than cost.
No ^&*ing Finder - the worst programme I have ever used, if I didn't have PathFinder as an alternative, I'd just flatten OSX and install W7 on my Macs. Even then I still use a Windows OS to do file management on my Mac as it is quicker and easier at times. A larger range of Software that is customisable, not the Mac one size fits all nonsense. Laptops that do not have annoyingly crippled keyboards, a large choice of gear to suit my professional needs Apple are now aiming for the rich consumer and are losing interest in the more demanding professional market. Much better [and yet  again more customisable] multi-monitor usability. Oh and cost - most people cannot afford Apple stuff, so to dismiss that as irrelevant is ever so slightly elitist.

If Apple were a clothing company they'd make 3 items, their t-shirts would be just the single size and probably black, trousers the same single size but in a wacky dark blue, no skirts as Steve doesn't wear a skirt why should you? And the last item would be a poloneck, again one size and black. But there would hundreds of other companies offening socks, underpants, hats, coats and shoes designed specially to complement  the Apple clothes and go go with any thing else you may possess.  
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mistymoon

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« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2010, 08:48:47 pm »

Quote from: jjj
A professional buying a tool as it looks prettier is not thinking very professionally. And don't forget most people cannot afford Apple kit, they aim at the higher end and ignore the less well off. One of the reasons they are so profitable.

Another reason Apple product are shown so much in the media is that media types are more likely to use a Mac, for historical reasons that have nothing to do with Macs being better or prettier than PC.
Something like 50% of professional photographers use Macs, even though only 4% of the total population own Macs.
But for many people Netbooks are ideal tools and will outsell the far less useful and way more expensive iPads by a huge margin and yet Netbooks will get a tiny fraction of the media attention.
In many areas, Apple are rarely the first to do something, they are not innovators in that respect, they take what others are doing and market it much better.
I had a nice sleek  aluminium case for my PC when Macs were still packaged in tacky plastic. Bu they were made by a company whose annual turmover is probably way less than Apple's spend on advertising per day.

Netbooks are a cheap dead end.  The iPad will redefine computing for most people and, because the interface is extremely easy to master, it will sell in the millions and millions and will be copied by HP, Dell, and the rest of the clone drones.  This new paradigm has NOTHING to do with marketing and advertising; it has ALL to do with an intuitive interface and attractive design that can perform many media activities extremely well.  We as photographers will still be using Lightroom and Photoshop on traditional computers for years to come; but for average computer users who don't need complex programs, the iPad is a godsend.

Look at how Apple redefined the entire music market with the iPod and the entire phone market with the iPhone.  The mass adoption of these products was certainly helped by marketing, but the masterful design and tight integration with iTunes and apps allowed these products to sell in the tens and tens of millions.  Microsoft and HP and Dell could not compete because their products were not designed (as in "thought through") as well.  The iPad will do the same.  Google is the only competitor on the horizon, and they will be a challenge because they are able to copy Apple's concepts and add fresh ideas of their own.

Yes, many people can't afford the best, so Apple cedes market share to others.  Similarly, not all photographers can afford the best from Canon or Nikon or Zeiss and will be happy with Tamron.  And for some tasks, Tamron will be entirely adequate.  Just as a Wal Mart netbook might be entirely adequate.  But that does not make it exciting or wonderful.
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mistymoon

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« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2010, 08:52:23 pm »

The truth is, these discussions can go on forever.  As for me, I'm a photographer happy with my Macs and an investor happy with Apple.  I hope those of you computing and investing with Dell and Microsoft today can say the same.
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2010, 11:39:38 pm »

Quote from: mistymoon
The truth is, these discussions can go on forever.  As for me, I'm a photographer happy with my Macs and an investor happy with Apple.  I hope those of you computing and investing with Dell and Microsoft today can say the same.


How about those above average photos you can only make on a mac?  How about a link to your website....
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Alan Goldhammer

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« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2010, 09:25:31 am »

Quote from: mistymoon
The truth is, these discussions can go on forever.  As for me, I'm a photographer happy with my Macs and an investor happy with Apple.  I hope those of you computing and investing with Dell and Microsoft today can say the same.
An investor happy with an overpriced stock like Apple?  Good luck.  Microsoft has a much stronger balance sheet and cash flow position.  I suggest you pick up a copy of Graham and Dodd's Security Analysis before you make any more investments.  Regarding your earlier post about Apple transforming the way we listen to music, I suggest that this is for the worse.  We are now a world of MP3 addicts and have sacrificed true music reproduction at the altar of tiny earbuds.  Maybe the I-Pad hits a sweet spot, but to call it a computer is a misnomer.  A media delivery system is a better description.  A fancy interface has nothing to do with computing.  Last that I saw Photoshop works the same on Macs and PCs.  I can buy an extra lens for my Nikon for the money I save on a new PC (which is exactly what I did getting the new 60mm micro Nikkor).  

Alan
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mistymoon

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« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2010, 10:01:02 am »

Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
An investor happy with an overpriced stock like Apple?  Good luck.  Microsoft has a much stronger balance sheet and cash flow position.  I suggest you pick up a copy of Graham and Dodd's Security Analysis before you make any more investments.  Regarding your earlier post about Apple transforming the way we listen to music, I suggest that this is for the worse.  We are now a world of MP3 addicts and have sacrificed true music reproduction at the altar of tiny earbuds.  Maybe the I-Pad hits a sweet spot, but to call it a computer is a misnomer.  A media delivery system is a better description.  A fancy interface has nothing to do with computing.  Last that I saw Photoshop works the same on Macs and PCs.  I can buy an extra lens for my Nikon for the money I save on a new PC (which is exactly what I did getting the new 60mm micro Nikkor).  

Alan

That's the funniest analysis of Apple vs. Microsoft stock I've seen in years.  How's that Microsoft stock doing for you?  Apple blows away expectations every quarter and has a relatively low P/E compared to performance, plus it has $40 billion in cash on hand.  I have held Apple stock since 1998, during which it has gone from about $8 to about $260.  You may buy a little lens with the money you save by getting a PC; but I am successfully funding an entire eventual retirement with Apple stock.  I suggest you look beyond conservative investments if you want to make serious money.  

As I said, the iPod, iPhone, and iPad have transformed media across the world; what has Microsoft done for you lately besides provide you with a cheap PC?
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mistymoon

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« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2010, 10:06:20 am »

Quote from: infocusinc
How about those above average photos you can only make on a mac?  How about a link to your website....

I will eventually under my real name, but I'm not so stupid as to set myself up for silly comments after this exchange.  

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mistymoon

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« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2010, 10:52:07 am »

A couple more points:  Macs hold their value better than PCs.  I bought a white plastic iBook about six years ago, probably paying about $1200.  After three years of hard service around the country, I sold that well-used iBook on eBay for $425.  I would challenge anyone with a PC to get a similar return.

Macs tend to have long service lives; I bought the gooseneck iMac I'm typing this on in January, 2002, so it is well over eight years old and holding up well during daily use.  It has never needed to be serviced.

Macs do not require yearly investments in anti-viral software.  On Amazon, Norton 2010 anti-viral software is $40.51.  Multiply that yearly and you start talking serious money--enough to buy a small prime lens in a few years.  I guess I could buy a comparable for Mac, but I've never felt the need for such software.

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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2010, 11:29:40 am »

Quote from: mistymoon
I will eventually under my real name, but I'm not so stupid as to set myself up for silly comments after this exchange.


You already set yourself up, and your inabiltiy or reluctance to show us the works that your mac has made above average (compared to the same works produced on a pc) only drives home the point.  

You need a paddle.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 11:31:46 am by infocusinc »
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