Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Camera Raw Q&A => Topic started by: nanjeca on April 16, 2010, 08:14:16 am

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: nanjeca on April 16, 2010, 08:14:16 am
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

I don't want to discuss PC vs MaC but I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.

any comments or help??

Mike
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Chris_Brown on April 16, 2010, 09:24:16 am
Quote from: nanjeca
I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.
I've done this exercise before.

When you consider only the hardware, a power-packed Windows box is essentially the same as a Mac Pro. Multiple processors with multiple cores, fast bus speeds, multiple internal hard drives, and other features are available on both platforms. If you configure a machine on the Apple Store (http://store.apple.com/) and Dell Store (http://www.dell.com/business/desktops) you'll see the prices are almost equal.

The applications from Adobe all function the same on both platforms (I think Adobe called it "parity" back when Photoshop's functionality and features were finally equal on both platforms). You take a series of good photos and process them through either platform and the photos will still look good. Now that Adobe is porting their Mac programs to 64-bit, there is no inherent advantage to either platform. And, I for one, believe 64-bit functionality is moot when working with 100MB-500MB image files (I could've used it with 1GB-2GB scans from 8x10 film, though).

This means it boils down to the OS. And this is where people get opinionated because we get so accustomed to a particular OS and its workflow.

Unfortunately, the only way you'll learn the Mac OS is to buy a machine and spend time using it to see if you are more productive. You can't drive it around the block to know if you'll like it, you'll need to use it for several months before you can make an informed decision. I know a lot of Windows users who have tried and cannot stand the Mac OS. I also know a lot of Windows users who have tried the Mac OS, and would rather die than switch back to Windows.

Good luck.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jerryrock on April 16, 2010, 09:24:21 am
Since the 64bit Photoshop CS5 is now available for both Mac and PC, one advantage of the Mac version is a 16bit print output option.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: PeterAit on April 16, 2010, 10:50:40 am
Quote from: nanjeca
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

I don't want to discuss PC vs MaC but I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.

any comments or help??

Mike

You don't want to discuss PC versus Mac but you want to discuss the advantages/disadvantages of one over the other. Hmmm, that's going to be tough!

Bottom line, both platforms are fast and stable for CS5 and LR. If you want to spend many hundreds of dollars extra for no practical advantage, get the Mac.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: bjanes on April 16, 2010, 12:32:42 pm
Quote from: Chris_Brown
When you consider only the hardware, a power-packed Windows box is essentially the same as a Mac Pro. Multiple processors with multiple cores, fast bus speeds, multiple internal hard drives, and other features are available on both platforms. If you configure a machine on the Apple Store (http://store.apple.com/) and Dell Store (http://www.dell.com/business/desktops) you'll see the prices are almost equal.
Good luck.
Of course, the Mac and Dell both are grossly overpriced. They charge a premium for disc space and memory. The best value can be obtained by building your own machine. This (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=942) link is dated, but gives an idea of the cost differentials.

Bill
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: graeme on April 16, 2010, 12:53:16 pm
'Time Machine' can be very useful. Has Windows 7 got an equivalent?

Graeme
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 16, 2010, 01:12:31 pm
Quote from: bjanes
Of course, the Mac and Dell both are grossly overpriced. They charge a premium for disc space and memory. The best value can be obtained by building your own machine. This (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=942) link is dated, but gives an idea of the cost differentials.

Bill

Bill, OK - I went to that link, and sure, this is well known, people who know what they are doing can build their own computer for MUCH less money than buying a Dell of a Mac, and of course as you read that piece you see that Mr. Ou indeed knows his stuff and monitors the component market in real-time. BUT: first you really need to know what you are doing: what pieces to select, how to put them together, or how to chose who to put them together and how to monitor whether they've done a good job or not; then there is the whole question of support and guarantees - you buy parts from all over the place with different warranty conditions, assemble them yourself or subcontract the assembly and you have a computer. If it doesn't work properly or stops working properly, who do you go to for a diagnosis, how much do you pay and who is responsible? Really, this is an option for computer techno-geeks, not for most of us who just want a robust and reliable computer for making our photographs.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on April 16, 2010, 01:14:23 pm
Quote from: nanjeca
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

Mike
The software will run the same on either machine so it all comes down to a question of price.  Comparably equipped PCs are cheaper than a Mac Pro probably by $1000.  this means more money to spend on paper, lenses, etc.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 16, 2010, 01:53:35 pm
Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
The software will run the same on either machine so it all comes down to a question of price.  Comparably equipped PCs are cheaper than a Mac Pro probably by $1000.  this means more money to spend on paper, lenses, etc.

Alan, as this news was - well - news to me (because I thought prices were pretty convergent between the two systems at the high-end) - I decided to go back to first principles on both the Apple and Dell websites (talking Canada here, but the prices are consistent with US prices just a few percent higher because this is Canada) and customize their flagship models as closely as the choices would allow. The Dell came out over 300 dollars more expensive than the Apple, and it was four core rather than 8 core and 6 gigs of RAM rather than 8. Specifically, $5746 for Dell, $5431 for the MacPro. I can email you PDF copies of the detailed spec sheets if you would like to see in greater detail what I did.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: John.Murray on April 16, 2010, 03:19:14 pm
Mike:  I also fail to see how any response to your questions would not be in the PC vs: MAC realm....

I agree with Mark that at the high end, pricing between MAC and other offerings essentially disappear.  My concern is the tendancy to look toward Dell as a high end computer supplier..... IMO Dell's purchase and relationship with Alienware has effectively turned their offerings into nothing less than unstable, overclocked junk.  

Dell's technical decisions are now clearly being made by marketing "suits".  A typical Dell machine with Windows 7 ships with:

A "dock" utility (are you KIDDING ME???)
The Dell local backup tool SCREAMS at the user to purchase an upgrade.  It also does not function with the included Roxio disk burning utility.  The Windows 7 backup utility is much better and easier to use.....

If you are looking to the high end, I'd recommend either

A Mac Pro - runs either OS X or Win 7 beautifully
An Intel Chassis / Workstation mainboard from an Intel Channel Partner (i'm one)

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 16, 2010, 03:49:54 pm
Quote from: Joh.Murray
Mike:  I also fail to see how any response to your questions would not be in the PC vs: MAC realm....

I agree with Mark that at the high end, pricing between MAC and other offerings essentially disappear.  My concern is the tendancy to look toward Dell as a high end computer supplier..... IMO Dell's purchase and relationship with Alienware has effectively turned their offerings into nothing less than unstable, overclocked junk.  

Dell's technical decisions are now clearly being made by marketing "suits".  A typical Dell machine with Windows 7 ships with:

A "dock" utility (are you KIDDING ME???)
The Dell local backup tool SCREAMS at the user to purchase an upgrade.  It also does not function with the included Roxio disk burning utility.  The Windows 7 backup utility is much better and easier to use.....

If you are looking to the high end, I'd recommend either

A Mac Pro - runs either OS X or Win 7 beautifully
An Intel Chassis / Workstation mainboard from an Intel Channel Partner (i'm one)

John, not that I'm planning to buy one - in fact I'm planning a move over to Mac, but does your commentary about a "typical Dell machine" also apply to their Precision Workstation line?
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Chris_Brown on April 16, 2010, 03:56:16 pm
Quote from: PeterAit
If you want to spend many hundreds of dollars extra for no practical advantage, get the Mac.
I'm amazed this myth still exists.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: John.Murray on April 16, 2010, 05:22:44 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
John, not that I'm planning to buy one - in fact I'm planning a move over to Mac, but does your commentary about a "typical Dell machine" also apply to their Precision Workstation line?

I just finished configuring a fully loaded Dell T5500 as a small departmental database server (oracle), a mess of a machine.  My experiences with recent HP's haven't been much better.

Intel always seems to be on top of latest O/S and driver bugfixes.....
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: PeterAit on April 16, 2010, 08:09:12 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Alan, as this news was - well - news to me (because I thought prices were pretty convergent between the two systems at the high-end) - I decided to go back to first principles on both the Apple and Dell websites (talking Canada here, but the prices are consistent with US prices just a few percent higher because this is Canada) and customize their flagship models as closely as the choices would allow. The Dell came out over 300 dollars more expensive than the Apple, and it was four core rather than 8 core and 6 gigs of RAM rather than 8. Specifically, $5746 for Dell, $5431 for the MacPro. I can email you PDF copies of the detailed spec sheets if you would like to see in greater detail what I did.

I am astounded by your Dell price. I have an 8 core i7 Dell with 12 gigs of ram, a raid-0 boot drive, and a high-end video card and the whole thing cost about $2200. What on earth are you including, a solid gold case <g>?
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on April 16, 2010, 09:12:38 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Alan, as this news was - well - news to me (because I thought prices were pretty convergent between the two systems at the high-end) - I decided to go back to first principles on both the Apple and Dell websites (talking Canada here, but the prices are consistent with US prices just a few percent higher because this is Canada) and customize their flagship models as closely as the choices would allow. The Dell came out over 300 dollars more expensive than the Apple, and it was four core rather than 8 core and 6 gigs of RAM rather than 8. Specifically, $5746 for Dell, $5431 for the MacPro. I can email you PDF copies of the detailed spec sheets if you would like to see in greater detail what I did.
Mark, I just got a new PC in February (delayed delivery by one week because of the mid-Atlantic blizzard) from CyberPC in Los Angeles) and paid $1300.  Intel I7-860; 8 GB RAM; ATI video card with 1 GB memory on the card; 1.5 TB SATA hard drive.  No monitor is included in the price as I already have a NEC.  I don't do enough work to set up a RAID system and two conventional external HDs (already owned) provide my back capability.  I'm running both LR and PS in 64 bit mode and things go pretty darn fast.  Maybe you have added some features that I don't need at this point in time.  The only difference that I can see from a workflow perspective is 16 bit printing with a Mac but I'm unsure whether that makes any qualitative difference.  In addition, I only do photography and no other graphical arts applications so maybe my machine is top line for just that application.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 16, 2010, 09:53:04 pm
Quote from: PeterAit
I am astounded by your Dell price. I have an 8 core i7 Dell with 12 gigs of ram, a raid-0 boot drive, and a high-end video card and the whole thing cost about $2200. What on earth are you including, a solid gold case <g>?

There are Dells and Dells. This is a top-of-the-line workstation with 4 internal hard drives. How much better it is than your 2200 construct I would have no idea. What line of system is yours? Here's the link to what I was building: DellT7500 basic (http://www1.ca.dell.com/ca/en/business/workstations/workstation-precision-t7500/pd.aspx?refid=workstation-precision-t7500&s=bsd&cs=cabsdt1) All you need is a few departures from the base specs to conform it as closely as possible with a MacPro and the price shoots up there. If you want the full spec sheet send me an email address and I'll provide it. You can compare what I developed with what you have and you will find the factors causing the price spread. BTW, I'm NOT buying it!
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 16, 2010, 09:55:56 pm
Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
Mark, I just got a new PC in February (delayed delivery by one week because of the mid-Atlantic blizzard) from CyberPC in Los Angeles) and paid $1300.  Intel I7-860; 8 GB RAM; ATI video card with 1 GB memory on the card; 1.5 TB SATA hard drive.  No monitor is included in the price as I already have a NEC.  I don't do enough work to set up a RAID system and two conventional external HDs (already owned) provide my back capability.  I'm running both LR and PS in 64 bit mode and things go pretty darn fast.  Maybe you have added some features that I don't need at this point in time.  The only difference that I can see from a workflow perspective is 16 bit printing with a Mac but I'm unsure whether that makes any qualitative difference.  In addition, I only do photography and no other graphical arts applications so maybe my machine is top line for just that application.

Sounds like a great deal, but I should send you the specs on the one I constructed so you can determine where the price differentials occur and whether or not they seem acceptable.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: John.Murray on April 16, 2010, 10:22:43 pm
Mark's Config is for a Dual Xeon platform.  This would be a proper comparison to Apple's Mac Pro.

I personally think it would be very cool to see Apple offer an I7 tower, but currently the only way to get that is an iMac.

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 16, 2010, 11:03:16 pm
Quote from: Joh.Murray
Mark's Config is for a Dual Xeon platform.  This would be a proper comparison to Apple's Mac Pro.

I personally think it would be very cool to see Apple offer an I7 tower, but currently the only way to get that is an iMac.

John - yes exactly - that's what I had in mind when I did the exercise - to get as comparable as the offerings allow.

Now the question this raises of course - triggered by Alan's comment and relevant to the OP's initial question - how much computer does one really need to get top-flight performance out of Lightroom or Photoshop? Is a 5000 dollar computer total overkill, in the sense that a 2200 dollar outfit would be just as fast and just as stable and just as robust? I ask - I honestly don't know - I think it's an important question. One can always take flight in safety by buying the absolute best because by definition it can't get any better, but how useful? You know what I mean - it conjures up the analogy of driving a Porsche in a 30 MPH speed zone.

It is interesting that Apple has the i7 chip in the iMac, which is a somewhat limited computer (i.e. very limited scalability and has experienced some technical glitches) but not in the MacPro. I'm wondering why. Do they think a Nehalem solution is better for the purposes of the MacPro, or it is just a matter of time before it too goes i7? Any thoughts on the merits of Nehalem versus i7?

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: tived on April 17, 2010, 01:23:37 am
Quote from: nanjeca
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

I don't want to discuss PC vs MaC but I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.

any comments or help??

Mike

Mike,

what do you expect to gain from changing OS/platform? I have and use both, but we are talking little differences between them. No one can tell on my images, that they have been prepared on a Mac or a PC. My Photography doesn't improve because I use one or the other. The same can be said when I shoot with the Nikon D3 and my Canon 1D mkIII.

Good luck - It would be interesting to know what the gain is going from one to the other, its very subjective but it makes for fun reading

Henrik

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: tived on April 17, 2010, 02:02:48 am
Quote from: Mark D Segal
John - yes exactly - that's what I had in mind when I did the exercise - to get as comparable as the offerings allow.

Now the question this raises of course - triggered by Alan's comment and relevant to the OP's initial question - how much computer does one really need to get top-flight performance out of Lightroom or Photoshop? Is a 5000 dollar computer total overkill, in the sense that a 2200 dollar outfit would be just as fast and just as stable and just as robust? I ask - I honestly don't know - I think it's an important question. One can always take flight in safety by buying the absolute best because by definition it can't get any better, but how useful? You know what I mean - it conjures up the analogy of driving a Porsche in a 30 MPH speed zone.

It is interesting that Apple has the i7 chip in the iMac, which is a somewhat limited computer (i.e. very limited scalability and has experienced some technical glitches) but not in the MacPro. I'm wondering why. Do they think a Nehalem solution is better for the purposes of the MacPro, or it is just a matter of time before it too goes i7? Any thoughts on the merits of Nehalem versus i7?

Hi everyone,

The i7 vs Xeon (Nehalem) which are somewhat both of the same architecture, its Desktop vs Workstation. When comparing Macpro vs PC it has to be compared to a Workstation grade system, It can DIY, Dell, HP or IBM etc... The i7's are great little snappy computers, and can perform any task at hand quickly. However, its when we start to truly multitask that they start to struggle (how do we compare or measure this?) In true multitasking environment, you will see the workstations start to shine, they are slow out of the start blocks, but when they build momentum, they get the jobs done.

I don't currently have the latest computers, but I did some tests a few years ago with the then top of the range. I had a Dual Opteron workstation and I had a Intel Quadcore Extreeme (Desktop) both with 8gb of ram and sata hard drives. The Opteron had a Nvidia Quadro FX 3400 and the Desktop had a Geforce 7900GT. Cost the Workstation was between 2-3 times more expensive, but it only gave me 10% speed increase in my benchmark test, however, sitting and doing my work on either of these machines was a different story. The workstation was the most comfortable machine to work on, everything just seemed to be more smooth, running raw conversions, doing photoshop work, rendering a pano, being online, running backup etc...all the things that we do in a normal days work. The Desktop on the other hand, was great to start with, but as I added more and more applications on, as I progressed in my work, it started to sink into its knees. (i know this is not scientific but an opservation)

Some one in an Australian Photo magazine, made a comparison with the latest Macpro and the a new top of the line HP workstation. I think the HP was 4x the price of the Macpro, but it was twice as fast at converting raw files.

I think when you choose an OS, get what makes you feel the most comfortable. Sure there are many if not most photographer, who thinks that their images will look better if they are done on a Mac. A lot top photographers do use Mac's but are they good computer operators or are they great photographers?

I say, pick your sword of choice and prepare to have some fun making images. One computer may get you there sooner, but either of them does not make you more or less creative. Your choice of lens is a far more important topic.

all the best

Henrik

PS: If i have gotten it wrong please correct me

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: JRSmit on April 17, 2010, 04:06:30 am
Quote from: nanjeca
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

I don't want to discuss PC vs MaC but I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.

any comments or help??

Mike
What is it you want to gain? What is your key issue today (which limitation hurts you most today)? Are you already working near the limits of your current platform?


If i take what i read on various forums or blogs serious, then Adobe (and some printer brands) seems to have problems in utilizing the Mac systems to the max. Also at the launch of CS5 there are some hints in that direction. But that may well be a wrong impression.
Did you check the site: http://macperformanceguide.com/ (http://macperformanceguide.com/) for some info on how to get the most out of mac's and how to circumvent performanc issues?

I use both: windows platform (desktop and notebook) as well as a macbook. At the end of the day, i personally do not care.

What i believe is true is what you yourself like best, which is a mix of personal preferences, ergonomical aspects and dominant choice of OS in your social network and how you are influenced by that.
For the end result: images published with whatever channel (print, web, email, etc), or the workflow "from klick to kick" to get there, it does not matter as this takes place mostly within Photoshop or Lightroom.






Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 17, 2010, 09:31:13 am
Quote from: JRSmit
What is it you want to gain? What is your key issue today (which limitation hurts you most today)? Are you already working near the limits of your current platform?


If i take what i read on various forums or blogs serious, then Adobe (and some printer brands) seems to have problems in utilizing the Mac systems to the max. Also at the launch of CS5 there are some hints in that direction. But that may well be a wrong impression.
Did you check the site: http://macperformanceguide.com/ (http://macperformanceguide.com/) for some info on how to get the most out of mac's and how to circumvent performanc issues?

I use both: windows platform (desktop and notebook) as well as a macbook. At the end of the day, i personally do not care.

What i believe is true is what you yourself like best, which is a mix of personal preferences, ergonomical aspects and dominant choice of OS in your social network and how you are influenced by that.
For the end result: images published with whatever channel (print, web, email, etc), or the workflow "from klick to kick" to get there, it does not matter as this takes place mostly within Photoshop or Lightroom.

Thanks ever so much fror that link. The website looks incredibly comprehensive. I'll read with interest to see what he says.

The answers to your questions at the start of your post will of course vary greatly from person to person, but that indeed is where we should all start in looking at what we need NEXT. In my case for example (Windows XP, Dual Core Xeon 5160 processors and 4GB RAM) in a Dell 690 Precision Workstation (top-of-the-line computer in 2006), properly configured according to Adobe's advice for using Photoshop efficiently), the machine simply bogs down using Capture-1 Pro with MF image files, or large files from a Canon 1DsMk3. The system has been systematically cleaned-up and properly maintained. I think it has simply reached the limit of efficiency to be expected from a 32-bit platform with less then 3GB of accessible RAM. Using these upgraded applications with large image files simply requires a 64-bit system and lots of RAM.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the same photographs can be produced to look exactly the same whether one is processing them on a Mac or a PC. That's not an issue or even a question. It's all about workflow efficiency (speed at task accomplishment, including keeping out of the scratch disk, multi-tasking efficiently, O/S stability, quality of service and support for when trouble happens, quality of system and document back-up solutions, time spent having to maintain the O/S itself, etc. From where I now stand, I need a more powerful, higher capacity computer than what I have and the criteria I mention here are the ones which will decide what I buy. And so far they point to a MacPro.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: bjanes on April 17, 2010, 09:36:39 am
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Bill, OK - I went to that link, and sure, this is well known, people who know what they are doing can build their own computer for MUCH less money than buying a Dell of a Mac, and of course as you read that piece you see that Mr. Ou indeed knows his stuff and monitors the component market in real-time. BUT: first you really need to know what you are doing: what pieces to select, how to put them together, or how to chose who to put them together and how to monitor whether they've done a good job or not;
I built my current computer (i7, 12 GB triple channel memory) about a year ago with the aid of a friend who had built many computers. I was amazed at how simple the process was. My teenage son did the actual assembly in less than two hours. The machine runs beautifully. At the time there were some very useful threads (? LuLa or Adobe forums) on the best components. The user reviews on Newegg.com are also quite helpful.

Quote from: Mark D Segal
then there is the whole question of support and guarantees - you buy parts from all over the place with different warranty conditions, assemble them yourself or subcontract the assembly and you have a computer. If it doesn't work properly or stops working properly, who do you go to for a diagnosis, how much do you pay and who is responsible? Really, this is an option for computer techno-geeks, not for most of us who just want a robust and reliable computer for making our photographs.
You make some very good points and I considered putting some of them in my post but decided brevity was best. I did have a scare when two 1TB Seagate drives failed more or less simultaneously. These drives had faulty firmware and were repaired by Seagate under warranty. Before I figured out the problem, I felt a bit helpless.

I am an enthusiast and not a professional photographer. If I were running a business with the computer, I would buy a high end Mac Pro with on site service for the reasons you cite. As mentioned previously, most PCs are undistinguished commodities and the workstation PCs are as expensive as the Mac Pro. My last computer was an IBM dual Xeon Intellistation Pro. It was beautifully built, but IBM left the market.

Regards,

Bill
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: PeterAit on April 17, 2010, 10:30:10 am
Quote from: Mark D Segal
There are Dells and Dells. This is a top-of-the-line workstation with 4 internal hard drives. How much better it is than your 2200 construct I would have no idea. What line of system is yours? Here's the link to what I was building: DellT7500 basic (http://www1.ca.dell.com/ca/en/business/workstations/workstation-precision-t7500/pd.aspx?refid=workstation-precision-t7500&s=bsd&cs=cabsdt1) All you need is a few departures from the base specs to conform it as closely as possible with a MacPro and the price shoots up there. If you want the full spec sheet send me an email address and I'll provide it. You can compare what I developed with what you have and you will find the factors causing the price spread. BTW, I'm NOT buying it!

My system is the Studio XPS line, which appears to be no longer available but was their top-end workstation last summer when I bought it.

In any case, I don't think the valid comparison is to create a PC that matches a Mac Pro detail for detail. Rather, it is to see how much it costs to get a very fast, high end system for photography work. Then, a PC beats a Mac for cost, hands-down.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 17, 2010, 11:03:26 am
Peter, at Dell "Precision" was always a more up-scale (i.e. pricier) workstation than "XPS" - not that I'm saying there's anything particularly slouchy about an XPS, but that's how they were positioned.

The question you raise about what's valid as a form of comparison is a good one. Whichever way we go about it, it's good to have objective metrics for evaluating the relative merits of a price differential and what you are proposing doesn't do that - it's subjective - i.e. if it feels good and seems good it is good - which may be fine for many peoples' taste and that's OK, but I prefer something more tangible. By comparing similar equipment specs, there is an underlying presumption that similar specs should deliver roughly similar performance. That may or may not be the case because the OS makes a difference to how the hardware operates, but it's a start and it does deal with the issue that was under discussion above about whether there remain important price differences these days between similarly specified Macs and PCs. If we want to do it by comparing outcomes rather than inputs, which is an excellent approach, then one should approach this objectively with benchmarks - there were some sites doing this - for example they had a set of Photoshop Actions which they asked users to run through their systems, they are clocked, and the time taken is posted. I haven't searched these resouces lately - things keep changing, but that would be a good thing to do.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: John.Murray on April 17, 2010, 01:19:27 pm
Another couple of items that separate a workstation class machine are ECC memory and disk subsystem options.  

As memory capacities get ever larger, memory errors are becoming more commonplace.  Modern Operating systems are remarkably resilient, a hard memory error will often just result in a page fault.  ECC on the other hand will correct errors and prevent them from reaching the O/S - with large data sets this can be critical.

SAS and FC disks offer true bus mastered data access to the O/S.  I personally love and use SATA, but again, for large data sets, the driver and it's attendant O/S and CPU overhead become a limitation.

Understand that these observations, are based on machines I've worked with running Database services, and or Medical Imaging.  I see digital photography rapidly approaching and in some cases absolutely requiring this level of performance.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: nanjeca on April 17, 2010, 01:38:19 pm
Whew...  such a great set of responses and interest in the topic, but from my initial question, perhaps a little off the topic that I was hoping to raise and discuss.

Indeed, much of the comments deal with the raw relative power vs price of PC vs MAC without the connection to my particular software purposes. My original query was directly focused (or so I hoped/thought) on the issue of running Photoshop and Lightroom on one platform or the other. What I was looking for was a comparison of feature sets, performance, any platform limitations such as the ongoing discussions of driver support for some of the older (Epson 7880 for me) printers in the current OS environments, especially OSX Snow Leopard, and such.  To me (no I am not rich), the discussion of money was not the concern. I really wanted to know if there were any benefits of switching from or staying put in the PC world vs MAC.

The impression I'm getting is feature sets of Adobe are identical, is the environment for supporting the rest of the supporting processes, printers, etc, other software, etc in the image editing/image management perspective?

In the meantime, thanks for the great preceding discussion and everyone's participation

mike
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 17, 2010, 01:53:29 pm
Quote from: nanjeca
Whew...  such a great set of responses and interest in the topic, but from my initial question, perhaps a little off the topic that I was hoping to raise and discuss.

Indeed, much of the comments deal with the raw relative power vs price of PC vs MAC without the connection to my particular software purposes. My original query was directly focused (or so I hoped/thought) on the issue of running Photoshop and Lightroom on one platform or the other. What I was looking for was a comparison of feature sets, performance, any platform limitations such as the ongoing discussions of driver support for some of the older (Epson 7880 for me) printers in the current OS environments, especially OSX Snow Leopard, and such.  To me (no I am not rich), the discussion of money was not the concern. I really wanted to know if there were any benefits of switching from or staying put in the PC world vs MAC.

The impression I'm getting is feature sets of Adobe are identical, is the environment for supporting the rest of the supporting processes, printers, etc, other software, etc in the image editing/image management perspective?

In the meantime, thanks for the great preceding discussion and everyone's participation

mike

Well Mike, once again this web forum has achieved its objective. Ask what you think is a simple question and we get you totally befuddled with all kinds of details and side-issues which don't directly address your critical concerns.    But you'd have to agree, it has great entertainment value and the side knowledge may even be useful to some folks. I always learn great stuff participating in these discussions even if they do the "dreaded" and go "OT".

Now back to serious - I think we have established for you that either platform will be more than adequate to process your photos if you get the right hardware specs, so from that point on it becomes primary a matter of other issues, some of which were identified. If you have seen no compelling reason to switch platforms through all of this discussion, you probably want to stay with Windows.  on your concern about drivers for whatever you up-grade or switch to, there is only one way to be sure: go to the website of each peripheral vendor and look to see whether they provide a driver compatible with the computer of interest to you - unless of course other forum participants happen to have the same gear you are looking at and can tell you from first-hand experience whether it works.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Chris_Brown on April 17, 2010, 02:49:29 pm
Quote from: nanjeca
The impression I'm getting is feature sets of Adobe are identical, is the environment for supporting the rest of the supporting processes, printers, etc, other software, etc in the image editing/image management perspective?
Yes, Photoshop has achieved full parity in all features for both platforms.

Printing is a different story, however, because you're dealing with hardware outside the realm of the platforms' OS. At this time, there's a bit of a problem getting good color from Epson printers hosted on an OS 10.6.3 system. (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41940) No problem for Canon iPF printers though. I don't know about HP printers.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 17, 2010, 03:02:32 pm
The problem being referred to here is one of printing profile targets with colour management turned off. Eric Chan has developed a workaround for it, as mentioned previously on this website.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: JRSmit on April 17, 2010, 03:36:22 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Peter, at Dell "Precision" was always a more up-scale (i.e. pricier) workstation than "XPS" - not that I'm saying there's anything particularly slouchy about an XPS, but that's how they were positioned.

The question you raise about what's valid as a form of comparison is a good one. Whichever way we go about it, it's good to have objective metrics for evaluating the relative merits of a price differential and what you are proposing doesn't do that - it's subjective - i.e. if it feels good and seems good it is good - which may be fine for many peoples' taste and that's OK, but I prefer something more tangible. By comparing similar equipment specs, there is an underlying presumption that similar specs should deliver roughly similar performance. That may or may not be the case because the OS makes a difference to how the hardware operates, but it's a start and it does deal with the issue that was under discussion above about whether there remain important price differences these days between similarly specified Macs and PCs. If we want to do it by comparing outcomes rather than inputs, which is an excellent approach, then one should approach this objectively with benchmarks - there were some sites doing this - for example they had a set of Photoshop Actions which they asked users to run through their systems, they are clocked, and the time taken is posted. I haven't searched these resouces lately - things keep changing, but that would be a good thing to do.
Mark,
Your point wrt metrics is a good one. As that is the thing missing, yes there are sites that review system components like cpu's and system boards that include some photoshop action set. However none of these will take a system board, load it with maximum amount of memory and then do the testing. They limit themselves to the memory needed for games usually, which is much less than we as photog's are looking for.
What would be a good thing is something like the macperformanceguide but then for windows would be accomplished, as it is the combination of components that make up a system, and used in a workflow typical for image processing. Also then the performance difference if any can be made relative to the overall workflow to put it all into perspective.


Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on April 17, 2010, 06:24:33 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
The problem being referred to here is one of printing profile targets with colour management turned off. Eric Chan has developed a workaround for it, as mentioned previously on this website.

There will also be a free app from Adobe Labs coming after the release of CS5 specifically for printing such targets.  The problem will then be resolved once and for all, with any luck :-)

To the OP: If you want real processing power and budget isn't an issue, consider a Windows 7 Cray workstation :-)

http://content.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/h...ay-cx1-iws.aspx (http://content.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/hpcc-cray-cx1-iws.aspx)
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: PeterAit on April 17, 2010, 06:55:18 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Peter, at Dell "Precision" was always a more up-scale (i.e. pricier) workstation than "XPS" - not that I'm saying there's anything particularly slouchy about an XPS, but that's how they were positioned.

The question you raise about what's valid as a form of comparison is a good one. Whichever way we go about it, it's good to have objective metrics for evaluating the relative merits of a price differential and what you are proposing doesn't do that - it's subjective - i.e. if it feels good and seems good it is good - which may be fine for many peoples' taste and that's OK, but I prefer something more tangible. By comparing similar equipment specs, there is an underlying presumption that similar specs should deliver roughly similar performance. That may or may not be the case because the OS makes a difference to how the hardware operates, but it's a start and it does deal with the issue that was under discussion above about whether there remain important price differences these days between similarly specified Macs and PCs. If we want to do it by comparing outcomes rather than inputs, which is an excellent approach, then one should approach this objectively with benchmarks - there were some sites doing this - for example they had a set of Photoshop Actions which they asked users to run through their systems, they are clocked, and the time taken is posted. I haven't searched these resouces lately - things keep changing, but that would be a good thing to do.

I don't disagree with you, but I do take a more casual approach to these things. Perhaps that's because I do photography for fun, not to make a living. I'd rather devote thought and energy to my images and not my computer.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Chris_Brown on April 17, 2010, 07:09:25 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
The problem being referred to here is one of printing profile targets with colour management turned off.
Thus it's an issue when making a purchasing decision.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 17, 2010, 07:10:40 pm
I'm also doing photography for fun, but the fun is enhanced with a computer which behaves the way one wants it to. I guess I've spent too much of my professional life measuring things (non-photographic) so I'm probably suffeirng from a bit of professional disorientation. :-)
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 17, 2010, 07:11:35 pm
Quote from: Chris_Brown
Thus it's an issue when making a purchasing decision.

Well no - it's not - because there are two solutions to it - Eric Chan's, and a new mini-app from Adobe dealing with it.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Chris_Brown on April 17, 2010, 07:13:24 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Well no - it's not - because there are two solutions to it - Eric Chan's, and a new mini-app from Adobe dealing with it.
psh. Work-arounds.  
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 17, 2010, 07:16:18 pm
So what - as long as they do the job properly that's what matters. Of course you know that - you're just pressing our buttons, no?  
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: duane_bolland on April 27, 2010, 04:12:06 pm
I think we've hashed out that Photoshop will run fine on either platform, but there are still many reasons for choosing one over another.  I bought a MBP laptop because I loved the hardware and it was more prestigious.  I could go on and on about the slick hardware and tight integration, but I won't.  I want to talk about the taboo subject of prestige.  

The Mac-PC decision is not just about hardware and software.  There's something socially significant about defecting from PCs.  It affects how people interact with you.  In some subtle way, they respect you better because you could afford a Mac and chose that route.  I noticed this also when I bought my first pro camera.  Clients put you in a different (hopefully better) class.  I don't want to turn this discussion into class warfare, but there is certainly a class factor to be considered.  Consider these product match ups:

Chevy versus BMW
Canon Rebel versus 1DsMIII
Spare bedroom versus swanky studio in a hip part of town
PC versus Mac

In each of these comparisons, both get the job done, but one does it with more prestige.  In general, looking great and having great equipment is good for business.  It is why real estate agents drive nice clean cars.  It is why retail businesses remodel so often.  Using a Mac laptop is one more way to differentiate yourself from the PC sheep.    Just saying...
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 27, 2010, 04:18:39 pm
Sorry Duane - hard for me to relate to; thankfully been gone from the "fast lane" for some time now and all this is pure pleasure. Don't need to impress anyone, nor do I care to. I'm happy doing what I think is most practical relative to my needs. I know, this approach is as boring and introverted as it gets, but that'a a glimpse of the "other crowd" making these decisions.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: duane_bolland on April 27, 2010, 06:20:49 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Sorry Duane - hard for me to relate to; thankfully been gone from the "fast lane" for some time now and all this is pure pleasure. Don't need to impress anyone, nor do I care to. I'm happy doing what I think is most practical relative to my needs. I know, this approach is as boring and introverted as it gets, but that'a a glimpse of the "other crowd" making these decisions.

I'm cool with that.      To each their own.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Ray on April 28, 2010, 06:09:04 pm
Quote from: duane_bolland
The Mac-PC decision is not just about hardware and software.  There's something socially significant about defecting from PCs.  It affects how people interact with you.  In some subtle way, they respect you better because you could afford a Mac and chose that route.  I noticed this also when I bought my first pro camera.  Clients put you in a different (hopefully better) class.  I don't want to turn this discussion into class warfare, but there is certainly a class factor to be considered.  Consider these product match ups:


Dear me! Now you've spilt the beans, Duane   .

I always thought Mac users continued to use Mac either because they had become accustomed to the system, and/or because they found some small advantage in the operation of one or more applications with certain equipment. For example, there used to be a speed issue with tethered MFDBs which tended to be faster on a Mac.

But now you raise the possibility that many people who are into photography may use a Mac simply to con people into believing that they know what they are doing. I shall now have to view Mac users with a new suspicion   .
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Chris_Brown on April 28, 2010, 07:54:46 pm
Quote from: Ray
But now you raise the possibility that many people who are into photography may use a Mac simply to con people into believing that they know what they are doing.
tch! Well, duh! I use Macs only to impress clients and to serve up a better scoff at my inferior PC-toting competition.  
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 28, 2010, 08:03:20 pm
Quote from: Ray
But now you raise the possibility that many people who are into photography may use a Mac simply to con people into believing that they know what they are doing.

Gheez, if that's all it takes we should all be running out to buy one.........
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: joofa on April 29, 2010, 12:36:07 pm
Macs sit on a power house that many (most??) photographers never bother to take advantage of, which is the power of BSD unix exposed through the Terminal. For e.g., every now and then there are questions on this forum regarding simple manipulation of files, for instance, take this recent one, where the poster wanted to know how to filter images with certain sizes. Some people suggested to use plugins for this simple operation and I pointed out that it is a one-liner on the Mac Terminal prompt (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=362628 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=43280&view=findpost&p=362628)). There are many other instances of similar requests on this forum (renaming files according to certain patterns, etc.) and one can't have a plugin for each!

Photographers can already understand and manage complicated programs such as Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. very well, and I see no problem with them learning a few Terminal commands that unleash that power for them.

Macs have an inherent advantage in this respect that Windows does not come with such shell. However, for the more adventurous, one can install stuff such as Cygwin or MSys to get the equivalent workflow on Windows.

Joofa
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on April 29, 2010, 03:52:22 pm
I just saw a news clip about Steve Jobs bashing Adobe and saying that the I-Phone and Pad will never run Flash.  Maybe the whole colorsynch problem was a way to get back at Adobe as well.  I wonder how much longer Macs will be able to run Photoshop and LR before Adobe takes their revenge?  You all better switch to PCs pretty soon so you don't get caught.  Are we sure LR3 really will run on Macs?
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: John.Murray on April 29, 2010, 04:09:15 pm
Quote from: joofa
Macs sit on a power house that many (most??) photographers never bother to take advantage of, which is the power of BSD unix exposed through the Terminal. For e.g., every now and then there are questions on this forum regarding simple manipulation of files, for instance, take this recent one, where the poster wanted to know how to filter images with certain sizes. Some people suggested to use plugins for this simple operation and I pointed out that it is a one-liner on the Mac Terminal prompt (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=362628 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=43280&view=findpost&p=362628)). There are many other instances of similar requests on this forum (renaming files according to certain patterns, etc.) and one can't have a plugin for each!

Photographers can already understand and manage complicated programs such as Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. very well, and I see no problem with them learning a few Terminal commands that unleash that power for them.

Macs have an inherent advantage in this respect that Windows does not come with such shell. However, for the more adventurous, one can install stuff such as Cygwin or MSys to get the equivalent workflow on Windows.

Joofa
Actually Windows has had Posix compliance since Windows NT4.  After the purchase of Interix, they've offered Windows Service for Unix as a free download:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb496506.aspx (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb496506.aspx)
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: joofa on April 29, 2010, 04:39:32 pm
Quote from: Joh.Murray
Actually Windows has had Posix compliance since Windows NT4.  After the purchase of Interix, they've offered Windows Service for Unix as a free download:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb496506.aspx (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb496506.aspx)

Hi,

Thanks for the link. It appears that it is an optional package that needs to be installed on Windows, similar to Cygwin/MSys, which are free. I don't know if it will be a part of the regular operating system instead of an add-on in the newer versions of Windows. But the good thing is that once you get such system installed then, of course, you can do a lot of Unix/Linux like file manipulation in Windows. The easy thing with Mac OS X is that such stuff comes by default through Darwin, which is a flavor/variant of BSD Unix, without any extra installation and is beautifully integrated into the GUI-based Mac OS X.

I use Cygwin/MSys on Windows all of the time as I can't do all of the things in the Explorer. However, I have had problems with symbolic linking to files on both of them on Windows. In don't know about Interix as I have not used it. On Mac OS X, of course, there is no problem with symbolic linking.

Joofa
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on April 30, 2010, 12:30:57 am
Quote from: Chris_Brown
Quote from: PeterAit
Bottom line, both platforms are fast and stable for CS5 and LR. If you want to spend many hundreds of dollars extra for no practical advantage, get the Mac.
I'm amazed this myth still exists.
Uh, it's not a myth!
Posted from my 17" Mac Book Pro which costs a lot more than an equivalent PC.
If you want to see some myths look at the nonsense Steve Jobs just posted on Apple website about Adobe + Flash.

I use both OSs and PCs are better in some ways and the Mac in others.
Both are also crap in many ways too.
If you are used to using one system and happy, stick with it.




Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on April 30, 2010, 12:43:24 am
Quote from: duane_bolland
I want to talk about the taboo subject of prestige.  
  Using a Mac laptop is one more way to differentiate yourself from the PC sheep.    Just saying...
I agree, it's a great way of impressing morons who don't know better. I have a Mac laptop for that very reason.
The sheep comment is also remarkably ironic, seeing as the Apple way is about very little choice. You use only what the Lord Jobs allows you to use, very little freedom of choice.

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: sjprg on May 02, 2010, 04:25:49 pm
Quote from: jjj
I agree, it's a great way of impressing morons who don't know better. I have a Mac laptop for that very reason.
The sheep comment is also remarkably ironic, seeing as the Apple way is about very little choice. You use only what the Lord Jobs allows you to use, very little freedom of choice.

Anyone whom has ever spoken to Jobs on a one to one basis has a different name for him. A$$
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 02, 2010, 04:59:39 pm
Quote from: sjprg
Anyone whom has ever spoken to Jobs on a one to one basis has a different name for him. A$$

If you want to get personal, perhaps you should tell us who is the real person behind your screen name, and how your lifetime accomplishments compare with those of Steve Jobs.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: JeffKohn on May 02, 2010, 06:22:56 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
If you want to get personal, perhaps you should tell us who is the real person behind your screen name, and how your lifetime accomplishments compare with those of Steve Jobs.
I don't see what lifetime accomplishments have to do with being an ass or not, but I haven't met Jobs personally so that's all I'm gonna say about that.

I will say I don't much care for the cult-like attitude of Apple and some of its more strident fans/customers. As for the whole "prestige" argument, I would say anybody who is impressed by the brand of your computer isn't worth impressing, and anybody who thinks they're cool because of the brand of their computer isn't really cool at all.

On the topic of pricing, it may well be true that a top-of-the-line workstation configured to match a mac-pro is in the same ball-park price wise. But the nice thing about the PC platform is that you can stop down to 90% of the performance for about 1/2 the price. And if you go the build-your-own route you can get exactly you want, and make the most of your budget (whatever that budget is).


Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 02, 2010, 08:12:07 pm
Quote from: JeffKohn
I will say I don't much care for the cult-like attitude of Apple and some of its more strident fans/customers. As for the whole "prestige" argument, I would say anybody who is impressed by the brand of your computer isn't worth impressing, and anybody who thinks they're cool because of the brand of their computer isn't really cool at all.

On the topic of pricing, it may well be true that a top-of-the-line workstation configured to match a mac-pro is in the same ball-park price wise. But the nice thing about the PC platform is that you can stop down to 90% of the performance for about 1/2 the price. And if you go the build-your-own route you can get exactly you want, and make the most of your budget (whatever that budget is).

I too am very agnostic about brands of anything - it depends on what works bet for me and the price:quality:service relationships. Cults around brands are completely foolish and only serve to jack-up prices. Right now I'm using a PC, but I'm seriously considering switching to Mac because I need to migrate to 64-bit for more RAM access, so it means rebuilding the whole damn thing whichever way I go. Once I need to do all that work regardless of the choice of OS, I'm having a fundamental rethink of the pros and and cons of each. I think this is how we should go about making these decisions - not just blindly doing what we've done before, or what appears "cool".

I'm leaning to Apple this time, mainly due to superior service and OS functionality. I know it's much less configurable than a PC and therefore much more constrained as far as spending range is concerned, but advantages they do have are that on the whole everything plays well together (except for certain aspects of colour management - wouldn't you know it from the company that prided itself on superior colour management for the graphic arts all these years), far better security from web threats and therefore far less nuissance with AV programs and OS updates, better system back-up capability and the list goes on. Well, I'm not racing into a decision just yet - still thinking and plodding through the views of users on both sides. Oh yes - and my "flagship" Dell 690 Precision Workstation has been through 2 "C" drives and a graphics card within 42 months. Yeah, it can happen to any computer, these are all 3rd party components for both companies. But still, enough to get one kinda fed-up. Sort of like changing politicians every few years when more often than not you know it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.  

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: PeterAit on May 03, 2010, 09:36:15 am
Quote from: JeffKohn
I don't see what lifetime accomplishments have to do with being an ass or not, but I haven't met Jobs personally so that's all I'm gonna say about that.

I will say I don't much care for the cult-like attitude of Apple and some of its more strident fans/customers. As for the whole "prestige" argument, I would say anybody who is impressed by the brand of your computer isn't worth impressing, and anybody who thinks they're cool because of the brand of their computer isn't really cool at all.

On the topic of pricing, it may well be true that a top-of-the-line workstation configured to match a mac-pro is in the same ball-park price wise. But the nice thing about the PC platform is that you can stop down to 90% of the performance for about 1/2 the price. And if you go the build-your-own route you can get exactly you want, and make the most of your budget (whatever that budget is).

Are there really people who think that using a Mac gives them prestige? That's sort of like a carpenter strutting around with his chest puffed out because his brand of hammer is "better" than any other.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 03, 2010, 11:16:25 am
As long as Macs and PCs coexist we will have these discussions.  I'm firmly in the PC camp from a price/value perspective.  While components can fail (and they will on either platform) the ease at which one can fix a PC vs a Mac is a deciding factor as is the configurability.  I just got a new cell phone last week (Verizon doesn't offer the I-Phone on its network).  Upgraded to the Android Incredible which can take up to 32 gB of memory using the new Sandisk micro SD cards (pretty much could put my Lightroom catalogue on this and still have room left over).  It multitasks and has an 8 megapixel camera that's supposed to be the best currently available.  It's made by HTC and not Apple but from my reading, it does everything the I-Phone does and more (though there are currently not as many applications available; but I do have the killer ap; a DC Metro ap that tells me when the next subway or bus will arrive).

Alan
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 03, 2010, 10:16:05 pm
Those who complain about the cult of Mac fail to realize how much the Windows platform has been helped by competition from Apple.  Those of us who have been photographers for a long time realize that Photoshop was originally available ONLY on the Mac, which built a lot of brand loyalty from professionals early on.  Long before that, the Mac pioneered using a mouse instead of keyboard commands; this made computer use for all sorts of graphics more accessible and easier; this engendered a lot of brand loyalty from graphic artists of all sorts since the mid-1980s.  Apple pioneered widespread use of Firewire and USB, which made peripherals faster and more reliable.  Apple dumped the floppy drive first, realizing that media artists were going to need greater storage capacity.  Apple's iPhone took the concept of a phone to a new level, engendering a stampede of copycats who pilfered the elegant concept.  Apple developed the first modern operating system in 1984; it wasn't until 1995 that Windows users had a rough equivalent (and could trumpet "mine is cheaper!").  The iPad explores new territory, once again making the user interface easier and more intuitive to use.

My point is not that the Mac and Apple are necessarily better, only that you wouldn't even have your cheaper Windows equivalent if it wasn't for Apple paving the way.  Apple's finest strengths lie in the user interface, the masterful blend of software and hardware, research & development, and, of course, design elegance.  It is rare that a competitor trumps them in any of these areas.

As far as trying to impress people with computers:  I don't.  My computers mostly stay in the studio.  But if you look at most art galleries, they use Macs at their public desks.  Image may not be everything, but when you are trying to sell artwork to wealthy clients, you don't want to sport a Wal Mart level computer up front.  Seriously.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 04, 2010, 02:35:24 am
Quote from: graeme
'Time Machine' can be very useful. Has Windows 7 got an equivalent?

Graeme


Rebit
http://www.rebit.com/ (http://www.rebit.com/)

sorry for the late reply
Marc
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 04, 2010, 04:26:55 am
In December I was looking to upgrade my computers, I owned a Macintosh 128 in 1984 or 85 and PC's since.
I ended up with a iMAC 27 i7 w/16 gigs of ram and a Dell studio 17 i7  w/8 gigs of ram. Win 7 on the dell was so sweet that I loaded my iMAC with bootcamp 3.1 and win 7 64bit
I set it to boot up in W7 and partitioned the drive 90% windows. It saved me the cost of purchasing CS4 for the Mac (not really I purchased it then didn't use it and sold it)
I only have to be competent with one OS and W7 is the best windows yet, every bit as good as OSX and all my programs work (C1, DxO, CS4 etc.) without any stability issues.
My 2 cents
Marc
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: PeterAit on May 04, 2010, 08:24:29 am
Quote from: mistymoon
Those who complain about the cult of Mac fail to realize how much the Windows platform has been helped by competition from Apple.

This is certainly true. But those who complain that many improvements in Windows were "stolen" from Apple conveniently overlook that fact that Apple "stole" most of its fundamental ideas from Xerox PARC.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 04, 2010, 10:05:07 am
Quote from: PeterAit
This is certainly true. But those who complain that many improvements in Windows were "stolen" from Apple conveniently overlook that fact that Apple "stole" most of its fundamental ideas from Xerox PARC.

Xerox PARC had not been brought to market; Apple made the brave decision to monetize the concept.  Windows 95 was a copycat of Mac.  The truth is, without Apple's pioneering, computing would be ten years behind where we are now.  But your point is well-founded:  The Pirates of Silicon Valley is a great little movie that tells the early story of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and where they stole their ideas from, with Noah Wiley as Steve Jobs.

If you look at print and TV ads that happen to show a laptop, note that a huge share use a MacBook Pro, most with the logo digitally removed.  The MacBook Pro has evolved to be what all other laptops aspire to look like and is the epitome of clean and zen-like laptop visual design.  As a photographer favoring clean and elegant images, I prefer working on machines that are equally clean and elegant--rather than something that looks like it was sold at Wal Mart.  The local professional camera supply store bought Dell all-in-one computers for its sales stations that were designed to compete with the iMac; they were SO ugly that they hurt my eyes.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Pete_G on May 04, 2010, 12:40:46 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
If you look at print and TV ads that happen to show a laptop, note that a huge share use a MacBook Pro, most with the logo digitally removed.  The MacBook Pro has evolved to be what all other laptops aspire to look like and is the epitome of clean and zen-like laptop visual design.  As a photographer favoring clean and elegant images, I prefer working on machines that are equally clean and elegant--rather than something that looks like it was sold at Wal Mart.

Yes, you're absolutely right. I too make all my computer purchases based on what is lying around in print and TV adverts, which despite what Chomsky says, represent the highest levels of human knowledge and culture.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: duane_bolland on May 04, 2010, 01:15:47 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
The MacBook Pro has evolved to be what all other laptops aspire to look like and is the epitome of clean and zen-like laptop visual design.  As a photographer favoring clean and elegant images, I prefer working on machines that are equally clean and elegant--rather than something that looks like it was sold at Wal Mart.  The local professional camera supply store bought Dell all-in-one computers for its sales stations that were designed to compete with the iMac; they were SO ugly that they hurt my eyes.

Well stated and I couldn't agree more.  

Back in the day, I enjoyed the challenge of building my own PC.  The catch is that it never worked right     and looked ugly.  Now I'm more than willing to pay extra for something that is well thought out, sexy and just plain works.  Steve Jobs may be an a$$, but his products are top notch.  By controlling the hardware and software, Jobs has made the overall experience very enjoyable.  I think I've installed only three after-market programs: Photoshop, Firefox and Text Wrangler.  

On a PC, by contrast, I would have needed to uninstall ten demo programs, then wiped the registry of vendor BS running in the background, and then downloaded Winzip, Acrobat, anti-virus software, backup software, and it goes on and on.  

Yes, this discussion has decayed into a Mac versus PC argument.  To each their own, I guess.  In my case, moving to a Mac was most stress releasing computer thing I have ever done.      That's all I'm saying.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: PeterAit on May 04, 2010, 01:46:45 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
Xerox PARC had not been brought to market; Apple made the brave decision to monetize the concept.  Windows 95 was a copycat of Mac.  The truth is, without Apple's pioneering, computing would be ten years behind where we are now.  But your point is well-founded:  The Pirates of Silicon Valley is a great little movie that tells the early story of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and where they stole their ideas from, with Noah Wiley as Steve Jobs.

If you look at print and TV ads that happen to show a laptop, note that a huge share use a MacBook Pro, most with the logo digitally removed.  The MacBook Pro has evolved to be what all other laptops aspire to look like and is the epitome of clean and zen-like laptop visual design.  As a photographer favoring clean and elegant images, I prefer working on machines that are equally clean and elegant--rather than something that looks like it was sold at Wal Mart.  The local professional camera supply store bought Dell all-in-one computers for its sales stations that were designed to compete with the iMac; they were SO ugly that they hurt my eyes.

Choosing a computer based on what it looks like choosing a painting to hang on your wall based on what it tastes like. In any event, my Dell is under my desk where the dust bunnies have long conversations about its aesthetic qualities   .
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 04, 2010, 02:45:21 pm
Quote from: Pete_G
Yes, you're absolutely right. I too make all my computer purchases based on what is lying around in print and TV adverts, which despite what Chomsky says, represent the highest levels of human knowledge and culture.

The aesthetics of Macs are clean and beautiful, which is why they are shown in ads.  The cluttered plastic creations of Dell and HP, not to mention the flimsy netbooks, won't help establish an image to help sell products.  Instead, they scream "Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!"  Most fine photographers aspire to more ...
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 04, 2010, 04:55:21 pm
Quote from: PeterAit
Choosing a computer based on what it looks like choosing a painting to hang on your wall based on what it tastes like. In any event, my Dell is under my desk where the dust bunnies have long conversations about its aesthetic qualities   .
But people 'taste' with their eyes when it comes to choosing food!
But there's no getting away from the fact that people like pretty shiny things, even if they are badly designed and ergonomically compromised in order to look a bit better. I believe in form follows function [which can also lead to very good design] not form compromises function, which is a problem I have with Apple kit.
I think it is ironic that a photographer, dismisses looks as not being important.  

My first thought when trying to buy my first computer many years ago was that if someone were to make a computer that wasn't an ugly beige box, they would sell far more than their competition. And at that time, even Apple computers were as ugly as PCs were. So when the iMac came out it was a huge hit as it was colorful and cute and helped turn Apple's fortunes around.
The vast majority of people have no idea about computing or what's inside the box and have no interest in such things, so will be swayed by looks. Apple simply capitalize on this and target those who like pretty shiny things - which is very good marketing. Which is what Apple really, really excels at, not computers, phones or music players. They are marketing geniuses and spend very, very heavily on marketing and are extremely adept at media manipulation. Now if their computers were even half as good as their PR, then ironically they wouldn't have to spend so much on advertising as you'd have amazingly good word of mouth. As opposed to rabid Macolytes, sounding like cult members raving about their sect, which many people find off putting.

And if anyone thinks Ives is a design genius, making really innovative products, this may be of interest.
Ives 'inspired' by Braun. (http://gizmodo.com/343641/1960s-braun-products-hold-the-secrets-to-apples-future)


Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: PeterAit on May 04, 2010, 05:50:03 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
The aesthetics of Macs are clean and beautiful, which is why they are shown in ads.  The cluttered plastic creations of Dell and HP, not to mention the flimsy netbooks, won't help establish an image to help sell products.  Instead, they scream "Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!"  Most fine photographers aspire to more ...

Do you choose your cameras and lenses based on what they look like? Your printer? Your network storage device?

I believe that what you say is true - Apple products have an "image" that can help sell things (mainly Apple products themselves, witness the geniuses who line up at 4 AM to buy the latest over-priced and over-hyped Apple gadget). But, that's not the way I like to work - I prefer substance over style. There are places where style and aesthetics are important, and places where they are mere window dressing obscuring what is really important. I find that emphasizing this is shallow and meaningless, although a lot of people have certainly ridden this philosophy to financial success.

Do you really believe your quote above "cheap and good enough for average work?" I have always believed that it was an artist's skill, dedication, and aesthetic vision that informed the quality of his work, and not the price tags on his tools.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on May 04, 2010, 06:10:35 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
"Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!"  Most fine photographers aspire to more ...


So, you gotta link so we can all see the way above average work you produce on your mac?
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 04, 2010, 07:09:37 pm
Quote from: PeterAit
Do you choose your cameras and lenses based on what they look like? Your printer? Your network storage device?

I choose everything based partly on its exterior design; all else being equal, that is a crucial deciding factor.  Do you choose a living room chair based solely on its cheapness, or does the fabric/leather color and texture and ergonomics make a difference to you?  Is the cheap look "good enough?"  When you buy a car, does the "look" matter to you, or is it simply an appliance?  I, for example, hate Toyota products because I think their designers produce cars that are a mish-mash of design, created to appeal to the "average" buyer.  Several months ago, you might have argued back "Yeah, but they're still the best cars on the road."  Many recalls later, you might start to question their mechanical and electronic design in addition to their surface design.

I have Macs and a PC, and I loathe the PC for so many reasons that I can't even list them all here.  Prime is the need to constantly update anti-virus software.  Second is the primitive and undesigned look of Windows XP.  Yes, yes, the newer versions were updated to copy the Mac look, but this computer is not powerful enough to try to update.

Yes, the PC can do essentially everything the Mac can do, cheaper and with less style.  But the public seems to be voting with their wallets; Apple stores are crowded with customers at every hour and Apple has become one of the largest and fastest growing companies in America.  Where is Dell today, besides frantically trying to copy Apple's designs?  What innovative work is Microsoft doing?  Please, enlighten us with how PCs are better than Macs in ANY way other than cost.


Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 04, 2010, 07:37:02 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
The aesthetics of Macs are clean and beautiful, which is why they are shown in ads.  The cluttered plastic creations of Dell and HP, not to mention the flimsy netbooks, won't help establish an image to help sell products.  Instead, they scream "Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!"  Most fine photographers aspire to more ...
A professional buying a tool as it looks prettier is not thinking very professionally. And don't forget most people cannot afford Apple kit, they aim at the higher end and ignore the less well off. One of the reasons they are so profitable.

Another reason Apple product are shown so much in the media is that media types are more likely to use a Mac, for historical reasons that have nothing to do with Macs being better or prettier than PC.
Something like 50% of professional photographers use Macs, even though only 4% of the total population own Macs.
But for many people Netbooks are ideal tools and will outsell the far less useful and way more expensive iPads by a huge margin and yet Netbooks will get a tiny fraction of the media attention.
In many areas, Apple are rarely the first to do something, they are not innovators in that respect, they take what others are doing and market it much better.
I had a nice sleek  aluminium case for my PC when Macs were still packaged in tacky plastic. Bu they were made by a company whose annual turmover is probably way less than Apple's spend on advertising per day.

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 04, 2010, 08:30:19 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
I choose everything based partly on its exterior design; all else being equal, that is a crucial deciding factor.  Do you choose a living room chair based solely on its cheapness, or does the fabric/leather color and texture and ergonomics make a difference to you?  Is the cheap look "good enough?"  When you buy a car, does the "look" matter to you, or is it simply an appliance?  I, for example, hate Toyota products because I think their designers produce cars that are a mish-mash of design, created to appeal to the "average" buyer.  Several months ago, you might have argued back "Yeah, but they're still the best cars on the road."  Many recalls later, you might start to question their mechanical and electronic design in addition to their surface design.
Mac ergonomics suffer from their looks before functionality ethos and Steve Jobs's hatred of buttons - is he part Amish or something?

Quote
I have Macs and a PC, and I loathe the PC for so many reasons that I can't even list them all here.  Prime is the need to constantly update anti-virus software.
My Mac is updating the Apple software on a fairly regular basis for bug fixes and security alerts too. And ironically the most damage and inconvienience ever done to any of my computers by software  was when  iTunes decided to pointlessly rearrange all my carefully arranged music folders without asking me first. Typically Apple in that they assume they know better than you about how things should be filed and as a handy side effect make it very hard for you to change to any other software as they arrange in a really stupid only makes sense to Apple software way.
I use Apple computers, but as little of their software as I can, as I do not like being trapped into such a controlling a system. Their software is often buggy as hell [best wait for the 4th update to the OS before installing it], badly designed, simplistic and apparently aimed at people with no demands. The good stuff Final Cut, Logic was designed/invented elsewhere and then bought by Apple.


 
Quote
Second is the primitive and undesigned look of Windows XP.  Yes, yes, the newer versions were updated to copy the Mac look, but this computer is not powerful enough to try to update.
Funny as Apple have emulated Windows too. Besides if you actually knew what you were doing, you could simply change the look of windows to be just like a Mac if you wanted, as unlike OSX, you can completely alter and re-skin the look of windows, to suit yourself.

Quote
Yes, the PC can do essentially everything the Mac can do, cheaper and with less style.
And also more expensively and with many different styles too, not everyone likes the minimalist Mac look.

Quote
But the public seems to be voting with their wallets; Apple stores are crowded with customers at every hour and Apple has become one of the largest and fastest growing companies in America.
Buying iPhones and iPods, Apple dropped the word 'computers' from their name a while back as that is not their main business anymore.
 
Quote
What innovative work is Microsoft doing?
Apple are not innovators, they polish up other people's clever ideas and market them brilliantly. As for MS, Project Natal would be one thing that springs to mind, Their tablet like device was also sooooo much more interesting than the underwhelming iPad, but suddenly and sadly dropped, a shame as it was very clever and an impressive new way of using a computer device, there's also the fact that Gates is now spending all his billions on things like curing poverty, eradicating AIDS and other such quite good things.
 
Quote
Please, enlighten us with how PCs are better than Macs in ANY way other than cost.
No ^&*ing Finder - the worst programme I have ever used, if I didn't have PathFinder as an alternative, I'd just flatten OSX and install W7 on my Macs. Even then I still use a Windows OS to do file management on my Mac as it is quicker and easier at times. A larger range of Software that is customisable, not the Mac one size fits all nonsense. Laptops that do not have annoyingly crippled keyboards, a large choice of gear to suit my professional needs Apple are now aiming for the rich consumer and are losing interest in the more demanding professional market. Much better [and yet  again more customisable] multi-monitor usability. Oh and cost - most people cannot afford Apple stuff, so to dismiss that as irrelevant is ever so slightly elitist.

If Apple were a clothing company they'd make 3 items, their t-shirts would be just the single size and probably black, trousers the same single size but in a wacky dark blue, no skirts as Steve doesn't wear a skirt why should you? And the last item would be a poloneck, again one size and black. But there would hundreds of other companies offening socks, underpants, hats, coats and shoes designed specially to complement  the Apple clothes and go go with any thing else you may possess.  
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 04, 2010, 08:48:47 pm
Quote from: jjj
A professional buying a tool as it looks prettier is not thinking very professionally. And don't forget most people cannot afford Apple kit, they aim at the higher end and ignore the less well off. One of the reasons they are so profitable.

Another reason Apple product are shown so much in the media is that media types are more likely to use a Mac, for historical reasons that have nothing to do with Macs being better or prettier than PC.
Something like 50% of professional photographers use Macs, even though only 4% of the total population own Macs.
But for many people Netbooks are ideal tools and will outsell the far less useful and way more expensive iPads by a huge margin and yet Netbooks will get a tiny fraction of the media attention.
In many areas, Apple are rarely the first to do something, they are not innovators in that respect, they take what others are doing and market it much better.
I had a nice sleek  aluminium case for my PC when Macs were still packaged in tacky plastic. Bu they were made by a company whose annual turmover is probably way less than Apple's spend on advertising per day.

Netbooks are a cheap dead end.  The iPad will redefine computing for most people and, because the interface is extremely easy to master, it will sell in the millions and millions and will be copied by HP, Dell, and the rest of the clone drones.  This new paradigm has NOTHING to do with marketing and advertising; it has ALL to do with an intuitive interface and attractive design that can perform many media activities extremely well.  We as photographers will still be using Lightroom and Photoshop on traditional computers for years to come; but for average computer users who don't need complex programs, the iPad is a godsend.

Look at how Apple redefined the entire music market with the iPod and the entire phone market with the iPhone.  The mass adoption of these products was certainly helped by marketing, but the masterful design and tight integration with iTunes and apps allowed these products to sell in the tens and tens of millions.  Microsoft and HP and Dell could not compete because their products were not designed (as in "thought through") as well.  The iPad will do the same.  Google is the only competitor on the horizon, and they will be a challenge because they are able to copy Apple's concepts and add fresh ideas of their own.

Yes, many people can't afford the best, so Apple cedes market share to others.  Similarly, not all photographers can afford the best from Canon or Nikon or Zeiss and will be happy with Tamron.  And for some tasks, Tamron will be entirely adequate.  Just as a Wal Mart netbook might be entirely adequate.  But that does not make it exciting or wonderful.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 04, 2010, 08:52:23 pm
The truth is, these discussions can go on forever.  As for me, I'm a photographer happy with my Macs and an investor happy with Apple.  I hope those of you computing and investing with Dell and Microsoft today can say the same.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on May 04, 2010, 11:39:38 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
The truth is, these discussions can go on forever.  As for me, I'm a photographer happy with my Macs and an investor happy with Apple.  I hope those of you computing and investing with Dell and Microsoft today can say the same.


How about those above average photos you can only make on a mac?  How about a link to your website....
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 05, 2010, 09:25:31 am
Quote from: mistymoon
The truth is, these discussions can go on forever.  As for me, I'm a photographer happy with my Macs and an investor happy with Apple.  I hope those of you computing and investing with Dell and Microsoft today can say the same.
An investor happy with an overpriced stock like Apple?  Good luck.  Microsoft has a much stronger balance sheet and cash flow position.  I suggest you pick up a copy of Graham and Dodd's Security Analysis before you make any more investments.  Regarding your earlier post about Apple transforming the way we listen to music, I suggest that this is for the worse.  We are now a world of MP3 addicts and have sacrificed true music reproduction at the altar of tiny earbuds.  Maybe the I-Pad hits a sweet spot, but to call it a computer is a misnomer.  A media delivery system is a better description.  A fancy interface has nothing to do with computing.  Last that I saw Photoshop works the same on Macs and PCs.  I can buy an extra lens for my Nikon for the money I save on a new PC (which is exactly what I did getting the new 60mm micro Nikkor).  

Alan
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 05, 2010, 10:01:02 am
Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
An investor happy with an overpriced stock like Apple?  Good luck.  Microsoft has a much stronger balance sheet and cash flow position.  I suggest you pick up a copy of Graham and Dodd's Security Analysis before you make any more investments.  Regarding your earlier post about Apple transforming the way we listen to music, I suggest that this is for the worse.  We are now a world of MP3 addicts and have sacrificed true music reproduction at the altar of tiny earbuds.  Maybe the I-Pad hits a sweet spot, but to call it a computer is a misnomer.  A media delivery system is a better description.  A fancy interface has nothing to do with computing.  Last that I saw Photoshop works the same on Macs and PCs.  I can buy an extra lens for my Nikon for the money I save on a new PC (which is exactly what I did getting the new 60mm micro Nikkor).  

Alan

That's the funniest analysis of Apple vs. Microsoft stock I've seen in years.  How's that Microsoft stock doing for you?  Apple blows away expectations every quarter and has a relatively low P/E compared to performance, plus it has $40 billion in cash on hand.  I have held Apple stock since 1998, during which it has gone from about $8 to about $260.  You may buy a little lens with the money you save by getting a PC; but I am successfully funding an entire eventual retirement with Apple stock.  I suggest you look beyond conservative investments if you want to make serious money.  

As I said, the iPod, iPhone, and iPad have transformed media across the world; what has Microsoft done for you lately besides provide you with a cheap PC?
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 05, 2010, 10:06:20 am
Quote from: infocusinc
How about those above average photos you can only make on a mac?  How about a link to your website....

I will eventually under my real name, but I'm not so stupid as to set myself up for silly comments after this exchange.  

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 05, 2010, 10:52:07 am
A couple more points:  Macs hold their value better than PCs.  I bought a white plastic iBook about six years ago, probably paying about $1200.  After three years of hard service around the country, I sold that well-used iBook on eBay for $425.  I would challenge anyone with a PC to get a similar return.

Macs tend to have long service lives; I bought the gooseneck iMac I'm typing this on in January, 2002, so it is well over eight years old and holding up well during daily use.  It has never needed to be serviced.

Macs do not require yearly investments in anti-viral software.  On Amazon, Norton 2010 anti-viral software is $40.51.  Multiply that yearly and you start talking serious money--enough to buy a small prime lens in a few years.  I guess I could buy a comparable for Mac, but I've never felt the need for such software.

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on May 05, 2010, 11:29:40 am
Quote from: mistymoon
I will eventually under my real name, but I'm not so stupid as to set myself up for silly comments after this exchange.


You already set yourself up, and your inabiltiy or reluctance to show us the works that your mac has made above average (compared to the same works produced on a pc) only drives home the point.  

You need a paddle.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 05, 2010, 11:58:27 am
Quote from: infocusinc
You already set yourself up, and your inabiltiy or reluctance to show us the works that your mac has made above average (compared to the same works produced on a pc) only drives home the point.  

You need a paddle.

Is this the silly season?

I never said that a Mac would produce better photographs than a PC; only that it is more of a pleasure to work on a Mac because it is more attractive, more intuitive, longer-lasting, and a better long-term value than a PC.  But save a few hundred bucks up front and keep buyin' that anti-viral software if it suits you!

Does YOUR computer produce great work for you?  If so, I want to know the brand!
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on May 05, 2010, 01:46:39 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
Is this the silly season?

I never said that a Mac would produce better photographs than a PC; only that it is more of a pleasure to work on a Mac because it is more attractive, more intuitive, longer-lasting, and a better long-term value than a PC.  But save a few hundred bucks up front and keep buyin' that anti-viral software if it suits you!

Does YOUR computer produce great work for you?  If so, I want to know the brand!


Yes it is silly season...mistymoon sez upthread...

"Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!" Most fine photographers aspire to more ..."

I've never in my life spent a cent for AV software and I've had a brace of Mac's and PC's over decades.

My computer does not produce a thing, it only helps ME produce.  Neither brand is truly superior.

I do however love watching fanboys rant.  Thanks for the grins.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 05, 2010, 05:21:12 pm
Quote from: infocusinc
Yes it is silly season...mistymoon sez upthread...

"Look at me -- I'm really cheap and good enough for average work!" Most fine photographers aspire to more ..."

I've never in my life spent a cent for AV software and I've had a brace of Mac's and PC's over decades.

My computer does not produce a thing, it only helps ME produce.  Neither brand is truly superior.

I do however love watching fanboys rant.  Thanks for the grins.

And I love to read the defensive responses by the PC fanboys; it is always fun to see people try to justify their purchase based on upfront cost alone.  Enjoy your PCs (I DON'T enjoy mine).
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on May 05, 2010, 05:29:35 pm
Quote from: mistymoon
And I love to read the defensive responses by the PC fanboys; it is always fun to see people try to justify their purchase based on upfront cost alone.  Enjoy your PCs (I DON'T enjoy mine).

You have foot in mouth once again.  I've not tried to justify anything, and I've owned  and used both PC and Mac.  Quit while you are behhnd.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: mistymoon on May 05, 2010, 05:59:34 pm
Quote from: infocusinc
You have foot in mouth once again.  I've not tried to justify anything, and I've owned  and used both PC and Mac.  Quit while you are behhnd.

I own and use both currently.  Can't let it go, can you?
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 05, 2010, 06:27:26 pm
OK, let's revert this discussion back from silliness and try to accomplish something of value to people who are on the fence about which system to buy into. We know all these major imaging programs will do the same things on both platforms save for compatibility glitches which open from time to time and eventually get fixed directly or by workarounds.

The real questions are about performance speed, system stability, multi-tasking, security requirements, back-up facilitation, and service quality for the price. For all you folks reading this and operating both systems, are you set-up to compare apples with apples, and if so, on these criteria, which is preferable in your opinion? Forget all the BS about appearance and who you need to impress.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on May 05, 2010, 06:46:59 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
OK, let's revert this discussion back from silliness and try to accomplish something of value to people who are on the fence about which system to buy into. We know all these major imaging programs will do the same things on both platforms save for compatibility glitches which open from time to time and eventually get fixed directly or by workarounds.

The real questions are about performance speed, system stability, multi-tasking, security requirements, back-up facilitation, and service quality for the price. For all you folks reading this and operating both systems, are you set-up to compare apples with apples, and if so, on these criteria, which is preferable in your opinion? Forget all the BS about appearance and who you need to impress.

The only winning move is not to play the game, I think, Mark

Everyone has personal preferences and even with the excellent criteria you've mentioned there's a degree of subjective evaluation involved which means some people will prefer one over the other and that's perfectly fine, accurate and reasonable.

The only issue I think you'll Mac really has an advantage is that at the moment OS X isn't targetted as heavily by trojans, viruses, malware, etc.  It's not immune, but it is very robust and less of a target and that does translate into a potentially more secure environment.  That said, in all the time I've used computers that were somehow attached to an external network (and that dates back to 1991 with an Amiga 2000) I've never had a system compromised by a virus.  Just a small amount of care and some free software these days should keep you entirely safe.

For speed - it's the same hardware base (Macs do offer Xeon more readily than PC vendors which can give you better performance at the extreme end, but if you're doing an apples to apples then the hardware will be the same).  Most benchmarks will show there's no particular advantage for either platform, although at various points in the product cycle you may find some new feature benefitting one or the other.

Stability - I see Macs at work crash about as often as the PCs doing similar roles, which is to say very in frequently.  Certain apps are more prone to crashing, but that not the same as the underlying OS.  I think historically Macs have had an edge here - closed hardware options should result in better stability.  If you stick with high end PC components, though, from major vendors, you won't see much in the way of issues.  This is particularly true of the 64bit versions of Vista and now even more so Win 7.

Back ups - Time machine is very cool.  Similar utilities exist for Windows (and have done for years).  Backups under Win 7 are simple, effective, create drive images that you can boot from, transfer, access and change and so forth.  No real differences here.

Service quality for price - I think Apple charges at the high end and their service is good.  Good enough to justify the price, but not a key benefit in terms of value.  For PCs, it obviously depends on vendor but at the end of the day I think you can get reasonable service at the high end of the price range that's pretty much on par.  You can get cheaper and better service, but it means finding the right place which is not always easy and if comparing apples to apples, then we're talking about major vendor support.  This will be one of the more subjective issues and certainly varies from location to location.

For me, the differences are so minor that it comes down entirely to personal preference.  I have zero problem sitting down at one of the Macs and using it, but I prefer Windows - that's all there is to it.  OS X is not more intuitive to me - it's less so.  That, without question, is a result of my previous experience with various computers and how I work and my personality and all the things that contribute to such things.  There's no right or wrong :-)  I think if you feel like a change, then changing is fine.  It's not really that much of a pain to swap from one platform to the other - it's just potentially costly if you need to replace software or other peripherals and the like, but then we typically need to do that every few years anyway.

Of course, if we really want some zeal we should invite the Linux folks to comment :-)
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 05, 2010, 06:52:21 pm
Thanks Phil, this is very insightful.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: ablankertz on May 05, 2010, 09:21:12 pm
Quote from: Farmer
For speed - it's the same hardware base (Macs do offer Xeon more readily than PC vendors which can give you better performance at the extreme end, but if you're doing an apples to apples then the hardware will be the same).  Most benchmarks will show there's no particular advantage for either platform, although at various points in the product cycle you may find some new feature benefitting one or the other.
No. If you can use a screwdriver and have enough computing ability to use a raw converter, you can build your own overclocked PC that will blow the doors off any Mac. When you factor in bang for the buck, Macs don't even make it to the starting line.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: joofa on May 05, 2010, 09:32:35 pm
Quote from: Farmer
Of course, if we really want some zeal we should invite the Linux folks to comment :-)

I think I mentioned this point that Mac OS = Gui-based OS (Similar to Windows) + BSD Unix flavor (Linux like). So it has the best of both worlds. Please read this message:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=362879 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=43042&view=findpost&p=362879)

where I pointed out that Macs are a wonderful combination of these features of the OSes for those who need it. You can of course get Linux-like behavior on Windows with Cygwin/Msys/Intrerix as an optional install, since that does not come with Windows. However, unfortunately, at least with Cygwin/Msys you don't get all the power, though, you do get a lot.

Only if Windows let me had good enough symbolic links my life would have been so easier ....  

Joofa
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 05, 2010, 09:58:47 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
OK, let's revert this discussion back from silliness and try to accomplish something of value to people who are on the fence about which system to buy into. We know all these major imaging programs will do the same things on both platforms save for compatibility glitches which open from time to time and eventually get fixed directly or by workarounds.

The real questions are about performance speed, system stability, multi-tasking, security requirements, back-up facilitation, and service quality for the price. For all you folks reading this and operating both systems, are you set-up to compare apples with apples, and if so, on these criteria, which is preferable in your opinion? Forget all the BS about appearance and who you need to impress.
A sensible suggestion. I use and know both very well and my view is that I'm a bit more productive on a PC, if for no other reason than I do not have to switch to another OS to do certain tasks that are faster/easier on a PC, than in OSX.  
And despite all the wild claims by deluded fanbois like mistymoon, I've had numerous issues with my MacPro and as it happens so have the majority of people I know who also use Macs, not to mention the yellow screened iMacs of late. Though others will have had no problems at all, just like most PC users don't have problems either. As for the virus nonsense, if Apple's OS ran on 90+5 of the world's computers, then it would be the target of the hacker and they'd ignore MS.
Both OSs are very good and both are also really stupid in places. My ideal computer would have best aspects of both in one OS, for now I use Macs with Windows in boot camp/virtualisation as well as my venerable old PC laptop.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: duane_bolland on May 05, 2010, 10:02:39 pm
Quote from: Farmer
For me, the differences are so minor that it comes down entirely to personal preference.

I totally agree.  

I'll add that switching between one and the other is a mental strain.  I use PCs at my non-photo job and a Mac for photography.  It took me 2 months to get comfortable with the Mac.  After a long stretch on my PC, I easily get annoyed with the lack of a real Delete key on the Mac.  After a long stretch on my Mac, I get frustrated with the inferior trackpad on my PC.  

Furthermore, the Command key on a Mac is the same basic function as the Ctrl key on the PC, but it is in the PC's Alt key's location!  In other words, copying on a PC is Ctrl-C, but on a Mac it is effectively an Alt-C.    

Warning! Photoshop related content:  Another issue with the Mac is the lack of dedicated Function keys, which I use in Photoshop.  F1, F2, etc..  Apple doubles up the Function keys with other useful tasks, like adjusting speaker volume.  If you really want an F-something, you need to press the "fn" key at the same time.  This is tolerable, but I would have preferred a row of dedicated F-keys.  

Someone else complained about iTunes.  Yep, I agree.  iTunes is a media whore.  I don't use it.  

Neither tool is perfect and they are different enough that switching back and forth is annoying.  But I'm sticking with my Mac despite it being less than perfect.    But, please, buy a Dell if you want.  


Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 05, 2010, 10:19:54 pm
Quote from: Farmer
Service quality for price - I think Apple charges at the high end and their service is good.  Good enough to justify the price, but not a key benefit in terms of value.  For PCs, it obviously depends on vendor but at the end of the day I think you can get reasonable service at the high end of the price range that's pretty much on par.  You can get cheaper and better service, but it means finding the right place which is not always easy and if comparing apples to apples, then we're talking about major vendor support.
3 year warrantees are not unusual with PCs, yet Mac charge for such support.

Quote
For me, the differences are so minor that it comes down entirely to personal preference.   There's no right or wrong :-)  I think if you feel like a change, then changing is fine.  It's not really that much of a pain to swap from one platform to the other - it's just potentially costly if you need to replace software or other peripherals and the like, but then we typically need to do that every few years anyway.
I'd agree except to add certainly cost in to the equation and if you are a Pro, the time [and therefore cost] in learning the new OS. There are lots of little differences that are worth learning to make the best of either system.
I only have some Mac computers as I could afford the much greater prices. Most people cannot afford them or would rather spend the money on say a new lens - which will quite possibly make a bigger difference than using either OSX or Win7.   I could have got a several L series lenses if I'd bought equivalent PC kit!


One way in which I think OSX is waaay better than Windows is software installing. I decided to buy a new, more powerful laptop the day before before a job abroad. I bought a MBP as I knew I could simply move my MP install across
with all my settings intact. Though having said that, it was not without problems the very expensive FW cable I had to buy to do this failed to work, [though may have been a laptop problem as I had other issues with FW not working]. As a result I had to use much slower ethernet instead after several wasted hours not solving the FW problem. I only just got things done! But with Windows, I'd have to install everything from scratch and customise each programme and the OS to my liking - a couple of days work. Installing software is generally easier, but just like with Windows, programme preferences are very annoyingly scattered all through the OS.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 05, 2010, 10:29:16 pm
Quote from: duane_bolland
I easily get annoyed with the lack of a real Delete key on the Mac.
I loathe the inconsistent confusing behaviour of the backspace/delete key on the Mac and the lack of a proper [forward] delete on the laptops.

Quote
Furthermore, the Command key on a Mac is the same basic function as the Ctrl key on the PC, but it is in the PC's Alt key's location!  In other words, copying on a PC is Ctrl-C, but on a Mac it is effectively an Alt-C.  
You can swap the Command and Cntrl keys on the Mac [ironically so as to be able to use Win keyboards] to be like the more ergonomic Win layout.

Quote
Someone else complained about iTunes.  Yep, I agree.  iTunes is a media whore.  I don't use it.
Even worse is Finder or anything to do with File management with Apple software come to that.


Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on May 05, 2010, 10:54:36 pm
Quote from: ablankertz
No. If you can use a screwdriver and have enough computing ability to use a raw converter, you can build your own overclocked PC that will blow the doors off any Mac. When you factor in bang for the buck, Macs don't even make it to the starting line.

I see this a lot.

Overclocking is great.  It's cheap and it is an advantage on PCs and you don't even need a screw driver for minor overclocking, but there's a whole different level of performance when you talk workstation specs vs desktop specs (ie Xeon vs i7 as an example) when you look at memory performance and real multitasking capacity.

In terms of real world performance that doesn't include gaming, overclocking is only of limited benefit.  PS users already understand that more memory, rather than fast memory is the key and the major bottleneck then is hard drive speed.  After that, the ability to do more things at once (where workstations leave desktops for dead) is the next thing.

If you really want to overclock hard and maintain stability so that you can reliably use it for a production tool, you need to spend up to get proper cooling and appropriate memory and you still won't have a workstation class machine.  You can get them in PC or Mac, but Apple offers them more prominantly than typical PC vendors.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on May 05, 2010, 10:57:29 pm
Quote from: jjj
One way in which I think OSX is waaay better than Windows is software installing. I decided to buy a new, more powerful laptop the day before before a job abroad. I bought a MBP as I knew I could simply move my MP install across
with all my settings intact. Though having said that, it was not without problems the very expensive FW cable I had to buy to do this failed to work, [though may have been a laptop problem as I had other issues with FW not working]. As a result I had to use much slower ethernet instead after several wasted hours not solving the FW problem. I only just got things done! But with Windows, I'd have to install everything from scratch and customise each programme and the OS to my liking - a couple of days work. Installing software is generally easier, but just like with Windows, programme preferences are very annoyingly scattered all through the OS.

You can do this with Win 7 so long as the same chipset is on both machines (one of the advantages of Mac is closed hardware).  If you compare apples to apples, though, you would be moving from one PC to another PC with the same chipset.  In such a scenario, you should be able to create a VHD backup and then restore it to another disk in the new machine and fire it up and have it work.  It may need to update a driver or two, but then it should be fine.

I think this is easier on a Mac, but doable on a PC.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on May 05, 2010, 11:08:16 pm
Quote from: jjj
I loathe the inconsistent confusing behaviour of the backspace/delete key on the Mac and the lack of a proper [forward] delete on the laptops.

Agreed.  Is there anyway to do a forward delete (ie PC style "del" rather than "backspace") on an iPhone?  On a small format device, not being able to delete in both directions is driving me crazy - I'm hoping I've missed something!
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 06, 2010, 02:10:28 am
Quote from: Farmer
Agreed.  Is there anyway to do a forward delete (ie PC style "del" rather than "backspace") on an iPhone?  On a small format device, not being able to delete in both directions is driving me crazy - I'm hoping I've missed something!
Seeing as the only workaround to such a stupid behaviour on a  Mac laptop or wireless keyboard is to use function key and backspace or go go forward in text and backspace to remove text, I'd be surprised.
This sort of very clumsy and sadly not uniquely so behaviour makes a mockery of Apple's claims to be easy to use/intuitive.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 06, 2010, 02:18:09 am
Quote from: Farmer
You can do this with Win 7 so long as the same chipset is on both machines (one of the advantages of Mac is closed hardware).  If you compare apples to apples, though, you would be moving from one PC to another PC with the same chipset.  In such a scenario, you should be able to create a VHD backup and then restore it to another disk in the new machine and fire it up and have it work.  It may need to update a driver or two, but then it should be fine.

I think this is easier on a Mac, but doable on a PC.
What about moving my Win7 from say my MP Boot Camp to my MBP boot camp? 8core to 2 Core?
I'm going to do fresh installs of everything, before installing CS5 Master suite and also upgrading desktop to Snow Leopard as most of the problems seem to have been fixed, so if I can do a clean W7 install on one machine and simply transfer it to the other, that would be fantastic..
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on May 06, 2010, 04:22:52 am
Quote from: jjj
What about moving my Win7 from say my MP Boot Camp to my MBP boot camp? 8core to 2 Core?
I'm going to do fresh installs of everything, before installing CS5 Master suite and also upgrading desktop to Snow Leopard as most of the problems seem to have been fixed, so if I can do a clean W7 install on one machine and simply transfer it to the other, that would be fantastic..

Hmm, I don't know.  8 Core from 2 Core means two processors from one, so that might present a problem.  I had been under the impression that just changing cores was an issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case (which is great).  It's certainly worth trying!
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Pete_G on May 06, 2010, 06:41:40 am
Quote from: Farmer
Hmm, I don't know.  8 Core from 2 Core means two processors from one, so that might present a problem.  I had been under the impression that just changing cores was an issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case (which is great).  It's certainly worth trying!

I'd be very pleasantly surprised if an OS installation originally configured for 2 cores would work optimally on a new 8 core machine, all the config files and the registry would be machine specific. It may run but prolly not optimally, whether you could optimise it I don't know. If I was in your position and had some hours to waste I'd try it though. Wouldn't it be great to have an "intelligent" self healing OS that could reconfigure itself for whatever you threw at it. Maybe someday. I was impressed how during the W7 install it went off and found drivers for all sorts of non standard hardware like fingerprint readers on laptops.

As for the Win v Mac debate, I fully agree with the later, and more sensible, comments that the sytems are pretty well much of a muchness and it would depend on personal preferences, I've always used the mantra "I run applications not OS's".

I'd be quite happy with a Mac desktop but I hate Mac laptops. Thinkpads are much better.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 06, 2010, 08:40:02 am
I think Microsoft took a big step forward with Win 7.  I've been running it on two different machines (the earlier machine has since been retired) and over this time have not had a singe crash even when running four programs concurrently (this negates the need to stay with Win XP).  I'm using the backup program that comes with Windows and after the first relatively lengthy backup to create the system image and back up all the files, it does the weekly chore in about 15 minutes or so (I've really not timed it).  My new machine has the latest I7 chip set with 8 gB of RAM and an ATI video card with 1 gB of memory.  It runs both LR and Photoshop seamlessly.  When I am doing photo stuff the only other program that is likely to be open is MS Outlook so I can't say that I'm doing major multi-tasking.  I would agree with others that while you can overclock the video card, that's likely to be of more value for game playing when animation and quick refreshes are needed.  If you are doing photo editing this is not likely to much impact if any.  Bottom line, the user interfaces are different; the programs we are interested in run equally well on both OS (though there was an earlier printer problem with Epson and Snow Leopard that has been thoroughly documented elsewhere on LL), and a comparable PC can run $1000 less than a Mac (and PCs are more simple to maintain if something goes wrong and you have some degree of computer savvy).

alan
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jerryrock on May 06, 2010, 11:21:22 am
Quote from: Pete_G
I'd be quite happy with a Mac desktop but I hate Mac laptops. Thinkpads are much better.

Mac laptops consistently win top spots in Consumer Reports laptop reviews.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Pete_G on May 06, 2010, 01:13:01 pm
Quote from: jerryrock
Mac laptops consistently win top spots in Consumer Reports laptop reviews.

Lots of laptops win top spots in all sorts of consumer reports.

If you want to run OSX properly (I don't count OSX_86) then you have no choice but a Mac. I have many good reasons why I, personally, don't like Mac laptops, it's nothing to do with OSX, but I won't bore everyone here with them.

The desktop Macs are different, well built and designed, as are the best PC's.

I use a Thinkpad as my photo computer, linked to an external monitor and other things. It's perfectly good at handling all the images I throw at it, up to 1Gb with many layers, so I sometimes think it's not absolutely essential to have the most expensive and fastest machine out there and to get too upset by all this. As long as your machine, PC or Mac, is reasonably recent and is well configured and maintained it'll do what you want.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: John.Murray on May 06, 2010, 06:52:28 pm
Quote from: Pete_G
I'd be very pleasantly surprised if an OS installation originally configured for 2 cores would work optimally on a new 8 core machine, all the config files and the registry would be machine specific. It may run but prolly not optimally, whether you could optimise it I don't know. If I was in your position and had some hours to waste I'd try it though. Wouldn't it be great to have an "intelligent" self healing OS that could reconfigure itself for whatever you threw at it. Maybe someday. I was impressed how during the W7 install it went off and found drivers for all sorts of non standard hardware like fingerprint readers on laptops.

As for the Win v Mac debate, I fully agree with the later, and more sensible, comments that the sytems are pretty well much of a muchness and it would depend on personal preferences, I've always used the mantra "I run applications not OS's".

I'd be quite happy with a Mac desktop but I hate Mac laptops. Thinkpads are much better.

Starting with Vista, the O/S installer is image based.  It's suprisingly tolerant of moving a system drive to a different hardware platform.

Windows and OSX will use all available CPU cores, Win7 will scale to 256.  As far as CPU's (sockets) Win 7 Pro will use 2, the home editions will use 1.

(http://imagesbymurray.com/images/16core.png)

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 07, 2010, 03:47:05 am
Since PS is essentially the same on both platforms, let's look at orher things. Here are some good things about doing imaging on the Mac platform:

OS level
- I find expose to be a very efficient way to deal with the processing of several images in several applications since you can see them at a glance when trying to switch from one application/window to another
- I see no performance degradation after thousands of hours of usage, which differs from my Win experience,
- The lack of virus has been a reality so far after a cumulated 7 years on Mac (spread over 3 machines) and is mostly valuable thanks to the reduced need for performance hungru virus buster apps like Norton,
- Networking accross several Macs is IMHO simpler to configure while remaining secure,
- It is possible to virtualize Win 7 in OSX (which I am currently doing with a Win7 64 bits instance) but the opposite is more diffcult and less legal.

Hardware:
- I find my Mac Pro to be quieter than any other equivalent WS I have had the chance to work with. This increases the value of my Nuforce music system,
- It is one of the easiest machine to open and configure (HD addition,...)

Applications
- Raw Developper is Mac only,
- Aperture is Mac only.

Some annoying things about the Mac plarform:
- some key apps are often ported late (DxO is an obvious example)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 07, 2010, 08:17:03 am
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Since PS is essentially the same on both platforms, let's look at orher things. Here are some good things about doing imaging on the Mac platform:

OS level
- I find expose to be a very efficient way to deal with the processing of several images in several applications since you can see them at a glance when trying to switch from one application/window to another
Never find a need for Expose on Mac [or Windows]. I find Cmd+Tab easier and faster to use.
And if we are talking OS stuff - Finder, yeuch such an appalling programme, a very serious impediment to efficient working, thankfully you can bypass it most of the time.

Quote
- I see no performance degradation after thousands of hours of usage, which differs from my Win experience,
I'm about to reinstall OXS fresh again, just like I used to with windows as I'm fed up with the constant slow running and freezes.
The beachball of doom appears very frequently and I do Cmd+Alt +Esc to force quit more often that I ever did Cntrl+Alt +Del to close apps.
And when one programme plays up most of hte other then do so as well.

Quote
The lack of virus has been a reality so far after a cumulated 7 years on Mac (spread over 3 machines) and is mostly valuable thanks to the reduced need for performance hungru virus buster apps like Norton
Norton is indeed truly awful, but there are other options with little/no overhead and Virus threats were an over rated issue as long as you are sensible. And as I mentioned above, the most damage ever dealt to my computer was by iTunes rearranging all my music without asking.

Quote
Networking accross several Macs is IMHO simpler to configure while remaining secure
Networking is a pain full stop. I've had problems with networking with the Macs and the PCs, my Macs still refuse to see the PC laptop and for a while wouldn't see each other.

Quote
It is possible to virtualize Win 7 in OSX (which I am currently doing with a Win7 64 bits instance) but the opposite is more diffcult and less legal.
Interesting how Window's more flexible behaviour twisted around to sound like OSX is better.

Quote
Hardware:
- I find my Mac Pro to be quieter than any other equivalent WS I have had the chance to work with. This increases the value of my Nuforce music system,
You can buy quiet PCs just as you can loud Macs, the plastic G5 was nicknamed the wind tunnel by some people. PCs were quieter before Macs were.
The current aluminium cased MP is however very nice and quiet.

Quote
It is one of the easiest machine to open and configure (HD addition,...)
Now you are 'aving a larf!'
Previously you couldn't add extra internal HDs to Macs and why so many people kept talking about why it was better to keep stuff on external HDs, as opposed to a second internal HD, like PC users did.
My PC case held 9 HDs. Adding more than the 3 there were spaces for in my Mac Pro, involved removing my optical drive - which was so noisy I was glad to be shot of it. Removing fiddly fans and shaving eSata cables to fit on very hard to reach connectors also took some time.
Macs have many advantages by ease of tweaking, customising and upgrading hardware is not one of them.


Quote
Applications
- Raw Developper is Mac only,
- Aperture is Mac only.
And your point is...?  


Quote
Some annoying things about the Mac plarform:
- some key apps are often ported late (DxO is an obvious example)
Or not at all and far more than the two you listed as being Mac only, neither of which I rate very highly and are probably less important to a PS user who would find much better integration with ACR/Bridge/LR.

There are actually slight differences with PS as it happens between the two OSs.
Mac - Drop down menus will disappear off screen if near edges, you are forced to have File menu on main monitor, The Chrome on a PC is more space efficient, which is useful for small laptops. Dodgy Fonts do not cause problems as they do on Macs, which can crash PS completely.

The major difference is that PCs can run lots of programmes much better than Macs do, so if you like to have lots of software open, PCs are way better.
And PCs work fine if your browser comes a cross a website with Flash in it. Macs can grind to a halt, yet although Flash works fine on most of the world's computers, it's Adobe's fault that OSX has problems with it.
Safari crashed earler and the remarkablychildish dialogue that came up was this

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4067/4585921493_bd250ea8e1_o.jpg)

and guess what there were no pages with flash on, Safari crashed all by itself and is now trying to tarnish Adobe in the process, which is really pathetic even by Job's normal low standards.
In fact Apple's recent childlike and deeply hypocritical behaviour about open standards and the letter from Steve attacking Adobe, with its numerous lies and mis-truths, is making me think my next computer will not be one of theirs. I've made sure I do not use software that is Mac only, as I do not like being locked in.
I actually like my Macs in many ways, but I am not blind to their many flaws and failing and get fed up with crazy and usually quite ignorant fanboi rantings about how perfect they are and useless PCs are. Neither is perfect, but only one claims to be and yet despite controlling both the hardware and the software as wel as being a premium priced brand, Apple computers are no more problem free than PCs in my experience.

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 07, 2010, 06:50:59 pm
Quote from: jjj
In fact Apple's recent childlike and deeply hypocritical behaviour about open standards and the letter from Steve attacking Adobe, with its numerous lies and mis-truths, is making me think my next computer will not be one of theirs. I've made sure I do not use software that is Mac only, as I do not like being locked in.
I actually like my Macs in many ways, but I am not blind to their many flaws and failing and get fed up with crazy and usually quite ignorant fanboi rantings about how perfect they are and useless PCs are. Neither is perfect, but only one claims to be and yet despite controlling both the hardware and the software as wel as being a premium priced brand, Apple computers are no more problem free than PCs in my experience.

Sure, but using both myself also I am having far less issues with my Mac Pro than with any other Win machine before.

Having had the chance to work with MS in a B2B context non related to my private photography applications I happen to have a huge amount of respect for them and their good folks so I surely don't qualify as an Apple fan boy.  

Your experience might differ from mine, but how can you claim that to be an universal truth and explain all differences by fanboism? It looks a bit Dpreviewish to me.  

I am a bit short in time and won't be able to answer to all your points, but for what it is work you might want to check the new OSX 10.1 version of the GPU accelerated flash plug-in now available.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on May 07, 2010, 08:50:45 pm
I think what it really boils down to is this. Apple can be compared to Nikon (or perhaps Canon -- depending on your personal preferences), and Win can be compared to Canon (or maybe Nikon).

If you have a strong emotional attachment to one brand or the other, that will make more difference than any of the niggling differences that have been brought up in this thread so far.

I personally prefer Canon (or is it Nikon?) YMMV.

Eric

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: DarkPenguin on May 07, 2010, 10:04:23 pm
That's defeatist talk.  If the people in this thread just keep going at it long and hard enough they'll finally crack that mac vs pc nut.  We should encourage them in their endeavors.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Chris_Brown on May 08, 2010, 09:23:19 am
"Apple's market share is bigger than BMW's or Mercedes's or Porsche's in the automotive market. What's wrong with being BMW or Mercedes?"

"Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren't used to an environment where excellence is expected."

"Design is not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."

"Innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower."

"Pretty much, Apple and Dell are the only ones in this industry making money. They make it by being Wal-Mart. We make it by innovation."

"You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new."

"Why join the navy if you can be a pirate?"

~ Steve Jobs
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on May 08, 2010, 09:56:36 am
Quote from: DarkPenguin
That's defeatist talk.  If the people in this thread just keep going at it long and hard enough they'll finally crack that mac vs pc nut.  We should encourage them in their endeavors.

... while the rest of us spend time doing photography. 
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 08, 2010, 11:12:20 am
Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
... while the rest of us spend time doing photography. 
Or wait for Lightroom to be ported to the Atari 800!
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 16, 2010, 08:31:39 pm
Quote from: Chris_Brown
"Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren't used to an environment where excellence is expected."

"Design is not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
~ Steve Jobs
Well it simply deosn't even work here!!    I'm on my latest failed attempt at getting OSX to work. A fresh install of Leopard to sort out my slug like OSX 10.5.8 refused to happen, so I thought sod it lets try Snow Leopard on this machine. After SL crashed upteen times upon restarting, I finally managed to get my 10.5.4 install to commence before yet another SL crash. After a clean install, I upgraded to 10.5.8 with the combo updater and now computer has completely frozen on the restart/configure installation.
 My newish MacBook Pro had to go the Apple store 2 days back after a power management problem.
So it seems Apple aren't exactly the yardstick of quality, as there were [as usual] a very large number of people with problems at the Genius desk.

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on May 17, 2010, 04:23:14 pm
Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
Or wait for Lightroom to be ported to the Atari 800!

LR never worked worth a darn on my Commodore 64. 
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: AveryRagan on May 18, 2010, 12:24:14 am
Personally I'm saving my bucks for one of the Dell Cray computers. It should blow the socks off of anything else out there. I have both Macs and PC's. Both give me heart burn when my wife starts using them.  
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 18, 2010, 10:10:13 am
Quote from: jjj
After SL crashed upteen times upon restarting, I finally managed to get my 10.5.4 install to commence before yet another SL crash.
It turns out the drivers for Highpoint Rocket Raid Cards that now come  pre-installed in SnowLeopard simply do not work very well.
You have to turn off any HDs plugged into the card to prevent SL crashing, which allows you time to remove old drivers and reinstall the drivers manually, just like in previous versions of OSX.
So after 2 days faffing and several visits to Apple store I now have a working computer. Now to spend another 2 installing all the software, tweaking installs and preferences. Just like a PC.    
Only reason I managed to sort problem was through using my Mac Laptop in target mode - which is very clever and not possible with Windows.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on May 18, 2010, 07:41:55 pm
Quote from: jjj
Only reason I managed to sort problem was through using my Mac Laptop in target mode - which is very clever and not possible with Windows.

That's actually very clever!  Only thing even close would be to use one of the self-contained *nix CDs to boot and use a PC that way or perhaps share its drives out over a network to another one.  Not as elegant or easy as target mode.

One question, though, for those who know - what security exists in target mode?  Can you take any Mac, boot it to target mode and then access the drives?
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Schewe on May 18, 2010, 10:35:23 pm
Quote from: Farmer
Can you take any Mac, boot it to target mode and then access the drives?


Yep...no real security at all...
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 19, 2010, 05:44:40 pm
Quote from: jjj
It turns out the drivers for Highpoint Rocket Raid Cards that now come  pre-installed in SnowLeopard simply do not work very well.
You have to turn off any HDs plugged into the card to prevent SL crashing, which allows you time to remove old drivers and reinstall the drivers manually, just like in previous versions of OSX.
So after 2 days faffing and several visits to Apple store I now have a working computer. Now to spend another 2 installing all the software, tweaking installs and preferences. Just like a PC.    
Only reason I managed to sort problem was through using my Mac Laptop in target mode - which is very clever and not possible with Windows.

Have you tried to install the latest vendor drivers for your Raid card?

Now that you mention it, the only time I have had stability problems with my Mac Pro was after switching to Leopard and were caused by Attos Raid card drivers.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on May 19, 2010, 07:26:02 pm
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Have you tried to install the latest vendor drivers for your Raid card?
Uh, that's what I said I did!
And why it is now working. The drivers that come with Snow Leopard simply don't work and simply cause kernel panics.

Annoyingly, it is just as painfully slow as before all this faffing, so needn't have even bothered.
My Laptop [also SL] is snappier to use, with far less beachballs of doom.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 20, 2010, 12:57:53 am
Quote from: jjj
Annoyingly, it is just as painfully slow as before all this faffing, so needn't have even bothered.

Sorry to hear that.

I have justed installed a Mercury Extreme 200GB SSD in the 3 years old MAc Pro, PS CS5 loads in less than 3 secs. Win 7 64 bits perf index for disk in VM jumped up to 7.2 (still not up to the 7.7 I am getting on my Lenovo work laptop with an Intel SSD, but that must be Fusion).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: joofa on June 03, 2010, 01:24:38 pm
Quote from: Farmer
Can you take any Mac, boot it to target mode and then access the drives?


Yes, and Target Mode on Macs can be a real life saver sometimes. I recall once I messed up my /usr/lib directory on my Mac laptop (you have to be "root" to do that, which is not activated by default on Macs)  and it immediately froze, of course, consequently. I had no access to any other stuff besides another colleagues' mac laptop and within minutes I hooked up the two laptops and was able to access my drives and adjusted the directory and my mac was back up.

Joofa
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: douglasf13 on June 03, 2010, 01:54:37 pm
For the last few years, I've been switching back and forth between Mac and PC without much notice.  I generally bought Mac laptops and PC towers, until recently, and now I've constructed the ultimate in blasphemy.  I bought the parts and assembled a PC, but I loaded OSX onto it.  In other words, a "hackintosh."  Quad Core, 8 gigs of ram, multiple hard drives and a 9800 GTX video card for under $1K.  link to how-to (http://lifehacker.com/5351485/how-to-build-a-hackintosh-with-snow-leopard-start-to-finish)
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Philmar on June 07, 2010, 10:28:25 am
Quote from: JeffKohn
On the topic of pricing, it may well be true that a top-of-the-line workstation configured to match a mac-pro is in the same ball-park price wise. But the nice thing about the PC platform is that you can stop down to 90% of the performance for about 1/2 the price. And if you go the build-your-own route you can get exactly you want, and make the most of your budget (whatever that budget is).

I agree. I use my sister's Mac when visiting her. it's a great machine but I'll always buy PCs because they offer greater value. A little research on these forums and others and it is easy to compile the components for an excellent pc rig. You can buy the components online from a multitude of dirt cheap online component vendors like newegg.com.
I'd love to drive a Mac and a Ferrari but for my purposes a BMW will do fine.

That said ,I DO find that PCs can slow down after a while and that they do require a regular regimen of cleaning to rid them of internet debris, spyware, defragging ect. But once you know how to do that and schedule these tasks then it isn't an issue.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: pcunite on June 08, 2010, 11:40:47 pm
If you know what you're doing PC's are like high-end cameras, they perform so much better in the hands of a pro. I built a quad processor 8gb box for less than $1000. Then I installed Windows 7 x64 configuring it using LUA+SRP (you must have a pro or higher sku) for this.

* lighting fast system, use ssd if desired
* no viruses or spam thanks to LUA+SRP
* thousands of dollars in savings
* my pick of S-IPS displays

Considering that computers are becoming more important, not less, perhaps you should find some study in the areas I mentioned even if savings is not a concern.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on June 08, 2010, 11:43:32 pm
Quote from: pcunite
If you know what you're doing PC's are like high-end cameras, they perform so much better in the hands of a pro. I built a quad processor 8gb box for less than $1000. Then I installed Windows 7 x64 configuring it using LUA+SRP (you must have a pro or higher sku) for this.

* lighting fast system, use ssd if desired
* no viruses or spam thanks to LUA+SRP
* thousands of dollars in savings
* my pick of S-IPS displays

Considering that computers are becoming more important, not less, perhaps you should find some study in the areas I mentioned even if savings is not a concern.

Good for you - real geeky - now if anyone could make head or tail of this through all your jargon and acronyms it could actually perhaps be useful.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on June 09, 2010, 08:07:36 am
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Good for you - real geeky - now if anyone could make head or tail of this through all your jargon and acronyms it could actually perhaps be useful.

I thought SRP was "Suggested Retail Price", but I don't have a clue about LUA. "LUminous Arctic???"  
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 09, 2010, 09:09:22 am
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Good for you - real geeky - now if anyone could make head or tail of this through all your jargon and acronyms it could actually perhaps be useful.


google is your friend...
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on June 09, 2010, 10:11:38 am
Quote from: infocusinc
google is your friend...

I have better things to do with my time, sorry.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 09, 2010, 10:16:05 am
Quote from: Mark D Segal
I have better things to do with my time, sorry.


OK....
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: John.Murray on June 09, 2010, 03:37:04 pm
Limited User Account and Software Restriction Policy

hth - John

oops....

hope this helps....

Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on June 09, 2010, 05:05:17 pm
Thanks John :-)

Mark
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: douglasf13 on June 11, 2010, 02:27:48 pm
Quote from: pcunite
If you know what you're doing PC's are like high-end cameras, they perform so much better in the hands of a pro. I built a quad processor 8gb box for less than $1000. Then I installed Windows 7 x64 configuring it using LUA+SRP (you must have a pro or higher sku) for this.

* lighting fast system, use ssd if desired
* no viruses or spam thanks to LUA+SRP
* thousands of dollars in savings
* my pick of S-IPS displays

Considering that computers are becoming more important, not less, perhaps you should find some study in the areas I mentioned even if savings is not a concern.


   I just did the same thing and put OSX on it.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on June 11, 2010, 09:31:44 pm
Quote from: douglasf13
I just did the same thing and put OSX on it.

It'd be nice if Apple wasn't such a closed computing system and actually let you do that legally (even if they warned you they wouldn't support it), instead of it being a licence breach   So much for Steve Jobs being all about open - hah.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: JohnHeerema on July 11, 2010, 03:56:59 pm
Quote from: nanjeca
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX.
any comments or help??

Mike

I am reluctant to jump into this discussion, now that it has grown to 7 pages, much of which seems to be PC vs. Mac rhetoric. However, I recently had a similar choice to make: I hope that my reasoning may be of some value to others.

I use the same hardware to run a variety of operating systems: Windows XP, Windows 7, Mac OS 10.6, and Linux Ubuntu (I have a Mac Pro, and a Macbook Pro). Alhtough I have the technical expertise to build my own systems, I choose not to, for reasons which are outside the scope of this posting.

I have Photoshop for both Mac and Windows. In general, the two are about as similar as Adobe can make them. However, I upgraded Photoshop to CS5 on the Mac OS, but not on Windows 7. My personal reasoning ran like this (and please remember that these were my personal reasons - others may have very valid reasons for making a different choice under similar circumstances):

I use a DTP-94 and ColorEyes for monitor calibration. I've found monitor calibration under Windows to be more problematic. This is probably because there are a lot more video cards to support under Windows, plus I think that the Windows API for colour management is a bit less mature than the Mac API. On the other hand, if you should happen to have a problem with a video driver under the Mac OS, there's not a lot you can do about it.

In general, colour management has made significant strides with Windows 7, but still seems to lag a bit behind the Mac OS for system-wide colour management.

On the other hand, support for older hardware seems to be better under Windows. For example, I recently resurrected my old Epson 2200 to print some 44" panoramas. Under the Mac OS, only the latest Epson driver would run, and the latest vesion of Epson's Mac driver limited the print length to 37" (even though the older Mac drivers didn't have this limitation). But under Windows, I had no problem running an older Epson printer driver, which didn't have the length restriction.

In general, Apple seems to quite readily drop support for older hardware, while Microsoft seems to maintain more backward compatibility. This makes the OS interface cleaner with Apple's OS, but forces you to keep your hardware newer.

Adobe uses an obnoxious activation scheme with both Windows and Mac.

I find font management to be cleaner under Mac OS than under Windows.

I can't help contrasting my Windows 7 upgrade experience with my Snow Leopard upgrade experience. Not only was the Snow Leopard upgrade far less expensive, but the Snow Leopard upgrade doesn't burden customers with silly checks for previous versions of the operating system, or onerous activation procedures. The Windows 7 upgrade ate up hours of my time. The Snow Leopard upgrade just worked. Microsoft's stupid activation software, together with their draconian activation policy, guarantees problems for people who want to upgrade their boot drives, or who suffer from a catastrophic disk drive failure.

As always, your mileage may vary...
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Farmer on July 11, 2010, 06:54:23 pm
Some good points, but I think you miss a critical factor in regard to upgrades.

Mac doesn't need to check anything, because you can't buy a Mac without buying OS X.  The hardware is the proof that you have the right to upgrade.  Also, the change from XP or Vista to Win 7 is a lot more than the change from Leopard to Snow Leopard, so of course you pay for it.  Many of the paid-for Mac upgrades would be free service packs from MS.

Overall, I think they're very similar in terms of costs.  What you have in terms of ease on OS X (and certainly it IS easier) relates entirely to the fact that it's a closed system.  There are benefits to end users as well as the vendor in a closed system, but there are also disadvantages.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Philmar on July 15, 2010, 01:53:29 pm
Quote from: pcunite
If you know what you're doing PC's are like high-end cameras, they perform so much better in the hands of a pro. I built a quad processor 8gb box for less than $1000. Then I installed Windows 7 x64 configuring it using LUA+SRP (you must have a pro or higher sku) for this.

* lighting fast system, use ssd if desired
* no viruses or spam thanks to LUA+SRP
* thousands of dollars in savings
* my pick of S-IPS displays

Considering that computers are becoming more important, not less, perhaps you should find some study in the areas I mentioned even if savings is not a concern.

Interesting analogy! There are incredible cost savings to be had going the PC route if you are willing to put some effort in to researching. I paid my local computer vendor (Canada Computers) $50 to assemble to PC whose components I picked. A little research can go a long way. But some people don't have the time/energy/inclination to do this. i understand that.

Quote from: Mark D Segal
Good for you - real geeky - now if anyone could make head or tail of this through all your jargon and acronyms it could actually perhaps be useful.

I understand your pain. I see similar trepidation in people who are buying a camera for the first time. CMOS sensor?, flash refresh rates, megapixels, focal lengths, frames/second, exposure compensation, maximum ISO value, different metering systems, focusing points...It's all intimidating. no wonder they often end up buying simple P&S'es. But a little research will go a long way for this first time buyer.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: TimBarker on July 19, 2010, 07:44:03 am
Quote from: Farmer
It'd be nice if Apple wasn't such a closed computing system and actually let you do that legally (even if they warned you they wouldn't support it), instead of it being a licence breach   So much for Steve Jobs being all about open - hah.

I've never quite worked this one out.  Apple users get to be able to run OS-X and Windows on their boxes yet PC users aren't legally allowed to load OS-X.  I would have considered this to be anti-competitive given that the underlying PC systems are essentially the same.  This is a real problem when one uses PCs entirely but actually want to write software for iPhones (which need to be written under OS-X).
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: tived on July 21, 2010, 10:26:04 pm
Quote from: Mark D Segal
Good for you - real geeky - now if anyone could make head or tail of this through all your jargon and acronyms it could actually perhaps be useful.

:-) for short

LUA (Limited User Account)
SRP (Software Restriction Policy)

No more geeky then anything else technical

Henrik
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 22, 2010, 12:15:45 am
Quote from: infocusinc
google is your friend...
And google tells me that LUA is yet another programming language, and SRP is Salt River Project (or Specialty Racing Products). 
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on July 22, 2010, 08:41:18 am
Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
And google tells me that LUA is yet another programming language, and SRP is Salt River Project (or Specialty Racing Products). 

One if us must use google in a different fashion.  I found what I was looking for in link seven on the first page....and link one on the first page for the other term.

Google is indeed your friend
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 22, 2010, 11:20:34 am
Quote from: infocusinc
One if us must use google in a different fashion.  I found what I was looking for in link seven on the first page....and link one on the first page for the other term.

Google is indeed your friend
You evidently knew that "LUA" had something to do with computer security, but it is certainly not a common acronym in the photography world, nor did your first post provide any such context. Wikipedia tells me:


"Lua may refer to:
Lua (programming language), a lightweight, extensible programming language
Lua (goddess), the Roman goddess
Lua (martial art), a traditional Hawaiian martial art
"Lua" (song), a single by the folk rock band Bright Eyes
Lua, Duff Islands, one of the islands in the Duff Islands group
Least user access or Least-privilege User Account, a concept in computer security
Lawa people, an ethnic group in northern Thailand
Lua people, an ethnic group in northern Laos
Niellim language, a Bua language spoken in southern Chad
Last universal ancestor, the hypothetical organism from which all other species of organisms descended
Saint Lua, Irish saint from the late sixth century, early seventh century.
Tshiluba language ISO 639 code"


As for Google, the seventh link on page one for me was "Lua - TIOBE
The Lua Programming Language. Highest Rating (since 2003): 0.771% (20th position , December 2007); Lowest Rating (since 2003): 0.015% (69th position, ...
www.tiobe.com/content/paperinfo/tpci/Lua.html"


And the first three hits Google gave me for SRP were:

"SRP: Salt River Project power and water"

"SRP: How to contact us" and

"SRP Pistons"

I think most forum visitors here can understand acronyms such as PS for Photoshop, LR for Lightroom, DR for dynamic range, and a few others. But it seems unreasonable to me to expect most photographers to be familiar with either LUA or SRP. A little context would help.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Craig Lamson on July 22, 2010, 12:35:03 pm
Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
You evidently knew that "LUA" had something to do with computer security, but it is certainly not a common acronym in the photography world, nor did your first post provide any such context. Wikipedia tells me:


"Lua may refer to:
Lua (programming language), a lightweight, extensible programming language
Lua (goddess), the Roman goddess
Lua (martial art), a traditional Hawaiian martial art
"Lua" (song), a single by the folk rock band Bright Eyes
Lua, Duff Islands, one of the islands in the Duff Islands group
Least user access or Least-privilege User Account, a concept in computer security
Lawa people, an ethnic group in northern Thailand
Lua people, an ethnic group in northern Laos
Niellim language, a Bua language spoken in southern Chad
Last universal ancestor, the hypothetical organism from which all other species of organisms descended
Saint Lua, Irish saint from the late sixth century, early seventh century.
Tshiluba language ISO 639 code"


As for Google, the seventh link on page one for me was "Lua - TIOBE
The Lua Programming Language. Highest Rating (since 2003): 0.771% (20th position , December 2007); Lowest Rating (since 2003): 0.015% (69th position, ...
www.tiobe.com/content/paperinfo/tpci/Lua.html"


And the first three hits Google gave me for SRP were:

"SRP: Salt River Project power and water"

"SRP: How to contact us" and

"SRP Pistons"

I think most forum visitors here can understand acronyms such as PS for Photoshop, LR for Lightroom, DR for dynamic range, and a few others. But it seems unreasonable to me to expect most photographers to be familiar with either LUA or SRP. A little context would help.


Like I said we must use Google in a different way.  What I knew was it had to do with WINDOWS.  I did my search accordingly.  It appears you did not.  Thats ok by me if its ok you.



BTW, I had no idea until I did a simple search...of course that was the entire point of my original post.
Title: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: conredgecollins on July 27, 2010, 03:25:29 am
(http://www.topons.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/245x245/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_6986.jpg)

up and back.
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: fanlynne on December 15, 2010, 12:05:14 am
As a casual user of CS products, I find no substantive differences between using them on a Mac vs. PC. I can cross post this question over to the Photoshop forum (originally posted to the Photoshop.com web site forum, which is not just about the desktop app).

It's probably going to become a Mac vs. PC discussion, since the question is inherently 'which is better', but hopefully people will remain objective and constructive!
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Dennis Carbo on December 15, 2010, 09:35:21 pm
I think thats kinda the point its supposed to be the same for compatibility ...just like microsoft office is pretty much the same cross platform.  By default it becomes a Mac vs PC debate because the program features and functionality are almost identical on MAC or PC all that is left is hardware and OS comarisons.  Ie: Speed, stability etc.
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 15, 2010, 10:19:22 pm
Well, it's not the same. I have been a long-time Windows user and I switched to Mac several months ago. I'm glad I did. I can only compare with Windows XP because that is the system I switched from. There are all kinds of subtle differences and distinguishing features which just make the Mac stand out as a superior option in terms of overall security, stability and usability. It would be very demanding to get into a whole bit by bit comparison, but this is my overall assessment after several months of experience with it. One really outstanding difference I should note however is the pleasure and efficiency of doing without AV software.
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Kirk Gittings on December 15, 2010, 11:38:46 pm
'Time Machine' can be very useful. Has Windows 7 got an equivalent?

Graeme

Yes Windows 7 has a system image backup feature that works flawlessly. It saved my butt just two weeks ago.
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Dennis Carbo on December 17, 2010, 05:33:16 pm
Hi Mark,

I am a rabid MAC fan so I hear what you are saying !  security and stability are because of the MAC OS i would think ...i was just saying that as far as  ADOBE PHOTOSHOP  the versions are very similar, particularly if they are just a casual user as the previous post had said. No question there are subtle differences ....
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Raw shooter on December 17, 2010, 07:25:36 pm
Well, it's not the same. I have been a long-time Windows user and I switched to Mac several months ago. I'm glad I did. I can only compare with Windows XP because that is the system I switched from. There are all kinds of subtle differences and distinguishing features which just make the Mac stand out as a superior option in terms of overall security, stability and usability. It would be very demanding to get into a whole bit by bit comparison, but this is my overall assessment after several months of experience with it. One really outstanding difference I should note however is the pleasure and efficiency of doing without AV software.

I think the real question is Windows 7 vs. OSX.  It's almost 2011 and the question has changed quite a bit.  64 bit machines running multiple monitors and 24 GB of RAM has changed the answer.  i7 processors and SSDs being the killer speed game changers for users on both sides.

Which side gives you the most and best options?  Which side is better for non-technical users?

Which side you choose says more about you - than which platform is superior.
 
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 17, 2010, 08:59:39 pm
I think the real question is Windows 7 vs. OSX.  It's almost 2011 and the question has changed quite a bit.  64 bit machines running multiple monitors and 24 GB of RAM has changed the answer.  i7 processors and SSDs being the killer speed game changers for users on both sides.

Which side gives you the most and best options?  Which side is better for non-technical users?

Which side you choose says more about you - than which platform is superior.
 

Yes I agree, the question is WIN7 vs OSX. I have Win7 installed under Parallels in my MacBook Pro. But you can't install OSX in any Windows OS. I don't need to use it often, but when I do it works fine. That being the case, OSX gives us more options because with the ability to mount both operating systems on one machine there isn't an application we can't seamlessly use one way or another.

For non-technical users, I think Mac is the preferred choice - the way the system is designed and packaged, there's less to go wrong, less up-dating and patching, no AV to worry about.

Frankly, I don't think my choice of a computer platform says a damn thing about me. These things are tools we use to get a job done and we each use what we prefer for whatever the reasons.
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Schewe on December 18, 2010, 12:47:02 am
Frankly, I don't think my choice of a computer platform says a damn thing about me. These things are tools we use to get a job done and we each use what we prefer for whatever the reasons.

You say that but you USED to be a Windows users and you bought a Mac...now, exactly why did you do that? Did you wake up one day and decide to change sides? No...you looked around at people who you looked up to (like Mike who also switched from Windows to Mac) and decided to dip a toe in the other side. That actually does say something about you (and the fact that the vast majority of platform "switchers" and Windows people getting Macs and either using Bootcamp or Parallels to run that last bit of software you just can't run on a Mac).

In the grand scheme of things, nothing in any Adobe software compels anybody to use one platform or the other-Adobe has bent over backwards to make sure the usability & functionality of all their software is platform agnostic.

There are indeed some areas where one can make the argument that Windows offers at least less hassle than Mac OS's seem to cause. Color management is one area I would point to...

:~)
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 18, 2010, 08:42:17 am
Hi,

I switched from Windows XP to Mac about four years ago. For me it was a smooth experience. I had a temporary issue with my iMac (loose DRAM sticks) and reverted to Windows XP for a short while, it was decidedly a bad experience. Very possible Windows 7 is a much better platform.

Admittedly, I'm a UNIX/Linux kind of person and I'm using command line quite a lot on the Mac.

Best regards
Erik


You say that but you USED to be a Windows users and you bought a Mac...now, exactly why did you do that? Did you wake up one day and decide to change sides? No...you looked around at people who you looked up to (like Mike who also switched from Windows to Mac) and decided to dip a toe in the other side. That actually does say something about you (and the fact that the vast majority of platform "switchers" and Windows people getting Macs and either using Bootcamp or Parallels to run that last bit of software you just can't run on a Mac).

In the grand scheme of things, nothing in any Adobe software compels anybody to use one platform or the other-Adobe has bent over backwards to make sure the usability & functionality of all their software is platform agnostic.

There are indeed some areas where one can make the argument that Windows offers at least less hassle than Mac OS's seem to cause. Color management is one area I would point to...

:~)
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 18, 2010, 10:18:30 am
You say that but you USED to be a Windows users and you bought a Mac...now, exactly why did you do that? Did you wake up one day and decide to change sides? No...you looked around at people who you looked up to (like Mike who also switched from Windows to Mac) and decided to dip a toe in the other side. That actually does say something about you (and the fact that the vast majority of platform "switchers" and Windows people getting Macs and either using Bootcamp or Parallels to run that last bit of software you just can't run on a Mac).

In the grand scheme of things, nothing in any Adobe software compels anybody to use one platform or the other-Adobe has bent over backwards to make sure the usability & functionality of all their software is platform agnostic.

There are indeed some areas where one can make the argument that Windows offers at least less hassle than Mac OS's seem to cause. Color management is one area I would point to...

:~)
[/quote

Well, fine, what it says about me is that I'm not afflicted with "brand allegiance", and I'm willing to try stuff, but beyond that I just can't fathom how using one OS or another has systematic, differentiating personality implications. That's what I was getting at. Anyhow, moving on......

Yes, colour management was pretty seamless with XP. I would also say that the GUI and experience of the Epson printer driver was better with XP than what I've seen and experienced so far on Mac. And yes, using Photoshop, Lightroom, Microsoft Office - same as, same as.

This "toe dip" by the way didn't come cheap, but then again once I decided to do this I really did it, the whole nine yards, except for SSD drives which are really expensive and didn't appear cost-effective given the amount of RAM I bought. (FWIW and for those interested, OWC - www.macsales.com - has an interesting comparison chart showing bench-test performance speed as a function of both drive type and RAM for each of the Mac Pro configurations.) Performance is generally very satisfactory, but I am, to put it mildly, unimpressed with how obtuse and uncooperative Apple Computer Inc. can be when faced with issues which clearly lie within their domain to examine and fix, and all you get from them is token, non-substantive "support" followed by stony silence. There may be more on this anon - one other firm is involved on a pair of issues concerning display support, and they are being helpful. So much to say that while not all is well in Apple-land, "in the grand scheme of things" this is a really good computing environment.

For those making the switch, BTW, I would highly recommend David Pogue's "Mac OS X Snow Leopard - The Missing Manual" - nothing I need to know about the OS is missing from this well-priced book.
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Dennis Carbo on December 18, 2010, 11:16:22 am
I didnt switch to a Mac because someone I looked up to did or because the anyone else was...I did it when Windows 98, ME etc. was the Windows OS and it was absolute crap, the most unstable platform I have ever seen - I was in Sales at a company that was 100% PC and bought a MAC because I couldnt stand the constant crashing and blue screen of death the was the norm in the PC world, not to mention Viruses.  I still have my 667mhz I bough in 2001 - it is running OS 10.4, photoshop CS2 and is still a very usable machine - the most amazing thing ?  It has NEVER crashed ..not once..never had a virus nothing....I had it in my motorcycle saddlebag cross country twice..never a problem.  I have crushed the screen and had to replace it  but that is it.  If you want something that just works get a MAC....If you want a nightmare of an OS get a PC and Run WINDOWS.  My last Windows computer ran Vista and it was a train wreck - Cant speak about Windows 7..all I can say is the only time I have ever had a PC run well was under DOS 6.22...I need to take photographs not be my own I.T. department thats why I use a MAC
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on December 18, 2010, 01:45:31 pm
For non-technical users, I think Mac is the preferred choice - the way the system is designed and packaged, there's less to go wrong, less up-dating and patching, no AV to worry about.
I think that is a very important point. I would call myself a technical user but when I advise any of my computer-illiterate (or semi-literate) colleagues or friends on which OS to get, I tell them that the Mac OS is superior for those who aren't interested in computers to get things done. I've been saying it for years. It may be that W7 has changed the game a bit; I've heard good things about it but I'm past the stage now when I can be bothered to reassess the situation.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Photoshop on Win or OSX
Post by: jjj on January 25, 2011, 09:29:01 pm
For non-technical users, I think Mac is the preferred choice - the way the system is designed and packaged, there's less to go wrong, less up-dating and patching, no AV to worry about.
Funny I must be imaging the constant Apple software updates that detail a large number of bug fixes and patches for Apple software, just like with any software ever made.
Snow Leopard had problems with PS until the second update if I recall correctly. I had to tediously uninstall the 10.6.4 update as it messed up my Mac Pro. Leopard was not stable or problem free enough for me to use for work until 10.5.4 and an Apple Genius at the Apple store said he never installed a new Mac OS until bug fix .4 or .5.
I got so fed up with SL running like treacle I decided to install Windows in Boot Camp, but was unable to do so as Bootcamp Assistant refused to run and then suddenly last week it did run despite my having altered or upgraded nothing in mean time. But because my Apple keyboard is buggy [yes really!] I had problems booting back into OSX when Boot Camp Assistant didn't actually work properly. I had to borrow an old Mac keyboard to get around issue.
I installed and ran BootCamp in Leopard no problems with Win7 beta, but with Snow Leopard - no joy it would seem.
As for no AV, my old PCs ran faster than my much newer Mac despite using AV and the only serious problem I ever had with software screwing up my computer was when iTunes decided to unilaterally and destructively mess up my carefully arranged filing system without warning. Though being the suspicious type, I only pointed it at a relatively small subset of files, so 'only' lost a day sorting things out, though if I'd been more sensible, I would have used a copy of the originals to test iTunes on.