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Author Topic: New PhaseOne - P40+  (Read 111796 times)

Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #140 on: April 30, 2009, 03:16:45 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
actaually the area is there:
[attachment=13343:p45.jpg]


That is pretty nice , you lose the power button but simply make the right top 4 button to hold down for 1 second or so and power from there.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #141 on: April 30, 2009, 03:16:54 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Graham yours comes to 76,800 so your both off. LOL


QVGA means 320x240 pixels. P1 have obscured this very low resolution by not only multiplying the number of pixels, but counting each R, G and B pixel as a separate pixel. I like the Phase backs but this kind of marketing nonsense gets to me. It's an insult to the customers, imo. Why not just tell the truth and print 320x240 which is what everyone will understand and wants to know?

320 x 240 x 3 = 230,400

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QVGA
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 03:20:14 pm by foto-z »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #142 on: April 30, 2009, 03:20:13 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
That is pretty nice , you lose the power button
you can place the power button somewhere else.
Question is: what is behind the LCD and how much space a bigger display would need; looking at my mobile phone not more than maybe 0.5cm or so... :-)
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2009, 03:31:23 pm »

That is what I was thinking how much thicker does the back have to extend out for the display and it's guts. Maybe not much at all
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #144 on: April 30, 2009, 03:32:49 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
QVGA means 320x240 pixels. P1 have obscured this very low resolution by not only multiplying the number of pixels, but counting each R, G and B pixel as a separate pixel. I like the Phase backs but this kind of marketing nonsense gets to me. It's an insult to the customers, imo. Why not just tell the truth and print 320x240 which is what everyone will understand and wants to know?

320 x 240 x 3 = 230,400

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QVGA


Thanks I just don't pay attention to some of this stuff but I agree just saying 320x 240 would be better for the user to understand
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James R Russell

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« Reply #145 on: April 30, 2009, 03:38:08 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
That is pretty nice , you lose the power button but simply make the right top 4 button to hold down for 1 second or so and power from there.


The layout of the phase backs need to change anyway.  The buttons on the side are way too easy to push around when moving fast and though after a period you learn the process, it is not the world's most intuitive design.

As far as the lcd, who cares if it's 240,000 vs, 920,000, it just depends on what it looks like and it ain't that pretty.

Still, there is nothing new about this and nothing Phase or their dealers don't know about.  In fact I'm positive if the new p40 and p65 had a high rez 3" lcd, all the talk would be how crappy the old lcds were, (think 3.7 previews vs. 4.8 previews).

This is just selling what you got and for the price I think most of us want more.

Now the strange thing about all this is the Sinar did hit all of the right buttons (pun intended) and obviously theirry or someone at Sinar was listening.  High rez lcd, in camera processing, dng native files out of camera and I don't spend my life digging around camera stores, but I've never seen this new Sinar in the flesh, in fact the 4 Sinars I've seen in 4 separate dealers all had dead batteries, which leads me to believe Sinar needs some serious marketing effort of their product.

JRR
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arashm

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« Reply #146 on: April 30, 2009, 03:47:54 pm »

wow
I see the P21+ is no longer listed...
I guess it's been dropped off the line up.
am
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #147 on: April 30, 2009, 04:32:47 pm »

Quote from: James R Russell
The layout of the phase backs need to change anyway.  The buttons on the side are way too easy to push around when moving fast and though after a period you learn the process, it is not the world's most intuitive design.

As far as the lcd, who cares if it's 240,000 vs, 920,000, it just depends on what it looks like and it ain't that pretty.

Still, there is nothing new about this and nothing Phase or their dealers don't know about.  In fact I'm positive if the new p40 and p65 had a high rez 3" lcd, all the talk would be how crappy the old lcds were, (think 3.7 previews vs. 4.8 previews).

This is just selling what you got and for the price I think most of us want more.

Now the strange thing about all this is the Sinar did hit all of the right buttons (pun intended) and obviously theirry or someone at Sinar was listening.  High rez lcd, in camera processing, dng native files out of camera and I don't spend my life digging around camera stores, but I've never seen this new Sinar in the flesh, in fact the 4 Sinars I've seen in 4 separate dealers all had dead batteries, which leads me to believe Sinar needs some serious marketing effort of their product.

JRR


I agree and it still uses the same P30 / H31 sensor which maybe for some outdated. For some maybe but I just bought a P30 + so not all of us think that. I think the buttons should actually be indented into the chassis some.
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gwhitf

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« Reply #148 on: April 30, 2009, 04:52:15 pm »

When you look at that chart, I'm amazed that anyone would think that a P40+ is an "upgrade" to a P45+. You go from a nice big chip, and a large viewfinder image, back down to a cropped chip and a smaller viewfinder image. I just think it's a back that's designed to compete with Canon or Nikon, but in my book, it just can't compete. I mean seriously, how many people need to shoot two frames a second with a medium format back with one autofocus point in the center? Who the hell is shooting the Super Bowl with a P40+? Even in fashion, who *really* does that, unless you're some coked-up Austin Powers dork? Who shoots two frames in a row without checking focus? I still maintain that the P21+ was a killer back; it shot fast, it was super affordable. To me, this P40+ is a replacement for the P21+.

All this talk about "the 3D effect of MediumFormat" is due to the size of the chip; why would anyone want to go smaller, by choice? You wanna see full 3D -- go shoot some 8x10 film. Seems to me you're shooting MF, (with all its hassles), for the optical effect, and the smaller the chip, the more you kill that effect. I still maintain that the P65+ is The Shits; but sadly, how many people are gonna write that check, just for a few more millimeters? Very few. I wish Phase would discontinue every back in the lineup except for the P65+, cut the price in half, and try to get the volume up. Because there is simply no way to compete with Nikon and Canon on their own turf. No way.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 04:59:41 pm by gwhitf »
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jjj

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« Reply #149 on: April 30, 2009, 05:06:54 pm »

Quote from: lisa_r
Anyway when I think of video instead of stills, it makes me think that much of the stress will be removed from the shoot, as you will not need to be selecting a thousand precise instants per day. That's where a lot of the stress comes from for me: I'll take a shot NOW, NOW and....NOW - oops, did I get that expression? Oops, she's moving again...NOW, NOW...NOW...
Whereas if you are shooting video you will have gotten every last facial expression the model made that day. And you can chose your moments for the stills later at the computer. Pretty cool. I have dabbled in video recently, and it is WAY less stressful IMO.
When making films, they have a stills photographer to take, well er stills. So why not do frame grabs like you seem to be suggesting? The quality that makes for perfectly good film/video looks a bit ropey as a still.  1/50th of a second is a slow exposure if you want sharp pictures, particularly without flash and if camera is not fixed to a tripod, they you make it even worse. Also for some people simply being in front of a video camera that rolls continuosly may make for a a subject that either moves continously and risk blurry images or one that may not know when to make poses as there is no feedback with camera noise/flash going off that gives shoots a rhythm.
The time when it may be best for some photographers is when it's least good - capturing action as with 25fps, you may get the position, but will it be sharp enough as movement will be even faster. I've had blur when shooting dancers with studio flash as the duration wasn't short enough.  
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #150 on: April 30, 2009, 05:49:39 pm »

Quote from: arashm
wow
I see the P21+ is no longer listed...
I guess it's been dropped off the line up.
am

Not listed in the unified tech spec sheet and unlikely to lead any marketing materials, but still available, and still very very good. It's not secret the sensors are not made anymore. However, they will be sold as refurbished units as people trade up to newer systems.

It may be "only" 18 megapixels, but for a variety of reasons I would rather enlarge an 18 megapixel P21+ file than a 22-24 megapixel dSLRs.

Old backs never die, they just... fade away. :-)

Doug

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bcooter

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« Reply #151 on: April 30, 2009, 06:15:16 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
When you look at that chart, I'm amazed that anyone would think that a P40+ is an "upgrade" to a P45+. You go from a nice big chip, and a large viewfinder image, back down to a cropped chip and a smaller viewfinder image. I just think it's a back that's designed to compete with Canon or Nikon, but in my book, it just can't compete. I mean seriously, how many people need to shoot two frames a second with a medium format back with one autofocus point in the center? Who the hell is shooting the Super Bowl with a P40+? Even in fashion, who *really* does that, unless you're some coked-up Austin Powers dork? Who shoots two frames in a row without checking focus? I still maintain that the P21+ was a killer back; it shot fast, it was super affordable. To me, this P40+ is a replacement for the P21+.

All this talk about "the 3D effect of MediumFormat" is due to the size of the chip; why would anyone want to go smaller, by choice? You wanna see full 3D -- go shoot some 8x10 film. Seems to me you're shooting MF, (with all its hassles), for the optical effect, and the smaller the chip, the more you kill that effect. I still maintain that the P65+ is The Shits; but sadly, how many people are gonna write that check, just for a few more millimeters? Very few. I wish Phase would discontinue every back in the lineup except for the P65+, cut the price in half, and try to get the volume up. Because there is simply no way to compete with Nikon and Canon on their own turf. No way.


I doubt seriously if Phase is after Canon or Nikon Sales.  That ship has sailed along with the 10 million ex RZ users that moved to Canons.  If there had been p25's,  for around 15k, medium format would look a lot different today. but back in the good ol' days, they were all charging 30 grand a hit.

Don't get me wrong, Phase and all the medium format guys would love to have every Canon guy "upgrade" to a P65+ but as far as meeting Canon and Nikon toe to toe with features, it ain't gonna happen.

I think this P40 is to try to put some distance between themselves and Hasselblad and maybe Leica.

It's no secret that Blad is getting damn aggressive and trying to make a push to pick up the digital tech, renters market.  That's why you see things like Calumet features Hasselblad or the Hasselblad Univeristy.

It's also no secret that the professional rental market has been dominated for a long time by Phase and to a lesser extent Leaf (both using used H-1s and H2s), so Blad would like a cut of that pie and  this new Phase gives them 10 more megapixels and a faster shooting rate than the Hthreedtwothiryone or whatever Hasselblad calls their low price leader.

As far as Leica goes, I guess nobody is worried about them taking the professional market by storm, but there is a lot of dentists out there just itching to buy a bigger camera and the new phase will up the Leica by a few megapixels and medium format has been selling megapixels forever.

Their slogan should be "supersize me".

From this point on the gloves are off.  Medium format can't be picking up that much market share so that just leaves 4 people at the poker table all holding a pair of jacks.  

You know it's a tough professional market out there when the camera dealer I use says he sold 40 something d3x's but not one to a professional photographer.

As far as the peetwentyone, for a cropped sensor it's a great back and shoots fast, enlarges well and has a nice texture to the files.  The lcd sucks (ah the phase lcd) and I'm sure hanging out at the tower club and saying your camera only has 18 megapixels doesn't turn any heads, but  it's a damn good deal and the best way to get into medium format.



B
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JDG

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« Reply #152 on: April 30, 2009, 08:58:05 pm »

Forget one-upping Hasselblad or cutting into the DSLR crowd, The P40+ to seems to be going after the existing P30 crowd.  Over the last several year Phase has sold a lot more backs than anybody else out there and in this economy you cant expect to draw in a lot of new users.  But...  If you can a take a camera that already sold extremely well to the next level, you might have alot of buyers.  The P30 was geared toward the fashion crowd... fast capture, higher ISO etc.  Just looking at NY and LA you have a lot of photographers using these backs and alot available in rental.  I wouldnt call it a saturated market, but the biggest sales days are gone with this segment.  Bring in the P40+ and you might be able to make a bunch of new sales... especially to rental houses.  Think about it, what does the back offer for this market?

1.  Its really really fast, fast enough you would never have to wait for it.  the P30 was pretty fast, but could have been a bit better.
2.  CCD is the same size as the P30, so your making a compromise in this market.
3.  High ISO.  Yes it only goes to 800 in standard mode, but assuming its like the P65+, that 800 is actually usable whereas 800 on the P30 was marginal at best.
4.  Smaller pixel=less moire
5.  Cant do long exposure, but how often do you need more than 30sec-minute in fashion? (or most photography outside of landscape) I dont think this is a deal breaker to this market.

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ThierryH

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« Reply #153 on: April 30, 2009, 09:23:11 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Simply because the jpeg is a processed file inside the back or camera and can represent differently than the actual raw file. And yes that matters a great deal and is a issue in the 35mm world because of different parameters. But as Brad points out than it is a different process from the Raw itself. But some camera's will show from a jpeg and that was what I wanted to know.
Well, this we all know, that the preview generated does not display the full RAW information. Of course it matters. And no, the preview image on the LCD is not generated from a JPG, in the Sinarbacks, and never was.

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I'm simply asking a question if the back got thicker or the chassis for that matter over a older back that does not have the larger screen. Wondering about the room inside to actually carry it and the electronics.
Nope, a 3" LCD does not need much more space as compared to the previous 2,2" or 2,5" ones. If it has influence on something, then it is on the backs layout of the different functions and menus (see Grahams post of the 2 generation of backs).

Thierry
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 09:24:19 pm by ThierryH »
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ThierryH

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« Reply #154 on: April 30, 2009, 09:34:34 pm »

Just a little correction, Graham:

The newer eMotion 75 has a 2.5" display. It was the previous e75 model which had a 2.2" LCD.

http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__ga...87-23-2014.html

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: foto-z
Hi Jack,

The older Sinar is 2.2", the newer one is 3" and 640x480. The Phase P+ backs are only 320x240 (so the Sinar has 4 times the pixel count).
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PHOTO ZARA

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« Reply #155 on: April 30, 2009, 09:56:47 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
actaually the area is there:
[attachment=13343:p45.jpg]


not far away from your idea but it could be done! NO EXCUSES!

ATT:Phase ONE

if nothing "PLEASE KEEP THE DAMN SIZE BUT GLUE THE BETTER SCREEN ON"
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 10:07:48 pm by PHOTO ZARA »
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cjmonty

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« Reply #156 on: April 30, 2009, 10:11:16 pm »

This sounds like an interesting back.  Not a sea change, but basically a 2009 version of the p45+.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 10:19:20 pm by cjmonty »
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PHOTO ZARA

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« Reply #157 on: April 30, 2009, 10:22:29 pm »

Quote from: cjmonty
To those who are ranting about the LCD:  please.  I mean... please.  The LCD does suck, but what did you do with film?  Have a lackey process on a Jobo in the corner of the studio to not have to wait for the lab to process and contact?

you should stay in the 19th Century my friend but I know you'll miss your Iphone crap/application so of course let's not talk or as you would say rant about the new LCD instead let's talk about practically similar SH*T

why not have both good adequate LCD according to todays standards and your/others IPhone application
without please this... or please that...


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jing q

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« Reply #158 on: April 30, 2009, 10:23:33 pm »

Quote from: cjmonty
As for the "client prefers to look at the d3x lcd" argument, who the hell shows their client the job on a 3" LCD, as anything other than a casual reference?

Phase LCDs do suck. In fact, all LCDs are pretty awful photo viewing devices. Even the shiny Canon and Nikon ones. But if you have a MFDB, you didnt buy it for getting a big shiny picture on the back, but a big beautiful file (after doing the work to get it) in your harddrive.

hrm. I show my client the 3" image on the job. I guess that comes with working fast and guerilla style when we don't have the time to set up a generator and a 30inch screen, when we're doing multiple angles to figure out what works best, having an instant 3" preview that gives a very good idea of how the final image is going to look is a big boon

I'm sending my canon in for a maxmax aa-filter removal, maybe that will make it easier for me to just rely on my 5D MkII for jobs (shock!)
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dfarkas

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« Reply #159 on: April 30, 2009, 10:36:25 pm »

Quote from: PHOTO ZARA
not far away from your idea but it could be done! NO EXCUSES!

ATT:Phase ONE

if nothing "PLEASE KEEP THE DAMN SIZE BUT GLUE THE BETTER SCREEN ON"

Really nice mock-up. I think Phase would do well to go this direction. But... I doubt they will invest a lot of $$$ to rework their P-series back design. Right now they can just throw in a new sensor and they have another back in the line-up. To put in a higher res screen would involve a change to the body/chassis as well as updating the electronics to drive the higher res screen and generate more detailed previews and zoom views, all without sacrificing speed and performance. This is not that easy, and certainly not cheap. In this economy, many MFDB companies are adopting a more conservative R&D schedule. Keep in mind that the P65+ was announced at Photokina in Sept before the global meltdown. I'm sure that the P40+ was well along in development and had been on the road map alongside the P65+ at that time. So, consider this as a product that was already in the works and was on last fiscal year's books. I doubt that you will see any major redesign of the back or the P1 camera for quite some time. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't see where the investment will come from.

David
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