Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 12   Go Down

Author Topic: New PhaseOne - P40+  (Read 105515 times)

bcooter

  • Guest
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2009, 04:15:32 am »

Quote from: KevinA
If it's impossible to fit a bigger screen, you would think it possible to make it so you could plug in your iPhone and use that screen or something like it.

Kevin.


It's not just the phase lcd screen, well it is the lcd screen, but there is more to the story.

It's also the in camera preview which doesn't seem to apply noise reduction or a preview file big enough for detailed viewing.  Shoot a peethirtyplus at 800 iso and look at the lcd, it looks like a snowstorm hit it.

Digital backs are very computer software dependent in producing the preview to the final enlarged image, unlike dslrs that do a lot of pretty fantastic in camera processing.

It's also not the size of the digital back, because a Nikon D90 is probably smaller than any phase back and has live view, in camera processing, a 3" lcd, shoots video and has a battery not any larger in physical size than the phase battery, but last forever.

DSLR's have progressed leaps and bounds and the cheap Nikon D90 is very close in final image quality to a Canon 1ds, maybe even the 1ds2 all for 1/7th of the price of a top end dslr, 1/20th the price of a medium format back.

Logged

ThierryH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 409
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2009, 04:43:40 am »

Dear Edward,

From my knowledge, there was never a MFDB manufacturer claiming such, when it comes to LCD resolution or its size. At least that was never my "excuse" concerning Sinarbacks and LCDs.

The only reason for it is the price (for such small quantities) and the fact that it is difficult to find a LCD manufacturer ready to go in production for your special needs: usually such LCD manufacturers have much bigger buyers. After that, once one has found such a LCD, it needs to re-design the back, but that is not that much a problem, from one generation of backs to the next. One simply also forgets often, that from one generation of backs to the next one, there is often at least 2 years passing.

I doubt I still can be criticized for having an "agenda" here, if I ever had one before and while working for Sinar. I say things how they are and how I know them to be, as much as I did before.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: E_Edwards
Isn't it funny?   For years we've been told that it was not possible to get more resolution on the LCD, due to the characteristics of sensor design, or the heat, blah, blah, blah. Now it turns out that it is possible after all. I bet the same applies to live Preview. Where there is a will...

That Sinar back looks good and it's reasonably priced too. If the quality, accuracy of colour and definition of the LCD is as good as what you get on the Canon 5DII, (pretty good to judge your pictures), then this is a camera worth a look.

Edward
Logged

E_Edwards

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2009, 05:15:39 am »

Thank you. Not actually referring to you Thierry, or to anyone in particular. All I have is a recollection of excuses, and I don't want to know the particulars, all excuses tend to blur into one, details don't matter. Either it's available or it isn't.

However, I don't recall hearing that it was price that prevented proper LCDs from materialising.

Edward
Logged

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2009, 06:40:52 am »

Quote from: ThierryH
Wrong Mr. Mancuso, absolutely wrong:

The LCD used in the Sinarback eSprit 65 IS of the quality of the Nikon, and has a 640x480 resolution in a 3" screen (4 times the resolution of the P+ LCDs): yes, it IS possible to fit such a 3" LCD in a back.

Best regards,
Thierry


Forgot about that one , actually never hear much about this back to be honest but it is also based on the jpeg file and not the Raw which can be different. Seriously does anyone actually have this back in there hands , never seen anyone mention they have one. Like to hear what they say about it. Is this back maybe not only thicker compared to others because of the screen, trying to figure out how they did it. BTW the name is Guy, I'm not that old. LOL
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

bradleygibson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 828
    • http://GibsonPhotographic.com
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2009, 09:12:10 am »

Quote from: bcooter
It's also the in camera preview which doesn't seem to apply noise reduction or a preview file big enough for detailed viewing.  Shoot a peethirtyplus at 800 iso and look at the lcd, it looks like a snowstorm hit it.

This is an artifact of how the back is generating the preview.  The technique is called decimation (or nearest-neighbor interpolation) where a pixel is simply extracted from the full-sized image.  I haven't seen the algorithm Phase uses, but I'd be willing to bet the pixels are carefully selected directly from the raw and subsequently demosaic'ed ("developed") to create the preview.

Even though this yields a "low quality" preview, with all the noise in an image highly accentuated, it is a "cheap" way of creating a preview.  It requires less processing, consumes less battery power, and yields more performance.

The "snowstorm" look of the Phase previews is an artifact of the quality of the data it's being fed, not because of the LCD itself.  This could be improved immensely with a different preview generation algorithm, potentially at the expense of one or more of the benefits mentioned above.

-Brad
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 09:17:26 am by bradleygibson »
Logged
-Brad
 [url=http://GibsonPhotographic.com

ThierryH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 409
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #125 on: April 30, 2009, 09:23:43 am »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
... but it is also based on the jpeg file and not the Raw which can be different.
I don't get it?! Are you saying that the view of the image on the LCD screen is not the RAW? If yes, that was never the point in that discussion, and neither Nikon nor Canon, nor any DB manufacturer do display a RAW. But may be I misunderstood this one.

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Is this back maybe not only thicker compared to others because of the screen.
Why should it be thicker?!

Thierry
Logged

ThierryH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 409
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #126 on: April 30, 2009, 09:25:36 am »

Exactly, Brad, thanks for this.

For your information, Mr. Mancuso.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bradleygibson
This is an artifact of how the back is generating the preview.  The technique is called decimation (or nearest-neighbor interpolation) where a pixel is simply extracted from the full-sized image.  I haven't seen the algorithm Phase uses, but I'd be willing to bet the pixels are carefully selected directly from the raw and subsequently demosaic'ed ("developed") to create the preview.

Even though this yields a "low quality" preview, with all the noise in an image highly accentuated, it is a "cheap" way of creating a preview.  It requires less processing, consumes less battery power, and yields more performance.

The "snowstorm" look of the Phase previews is an artifact of the quality of the data it's being fed, not because of the LCD itself.  This could be improved immensely with a different preview generation algorithm, potentially at the expense of one or more of the benefits mentioned above.

-Brad
Logged

erick.boileau

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 468
    • http://
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #127 on: April 30, 2009, 09:58:18 am »

good idea , and by the way it will be nice to plug the battery of the car
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #128 on: April 30, 2009, 11:24:19 am »

A Question:

If a company knows in February that a new product is almost ready, and will ship in April or May, should it
1. Tell people what it knows in February, by announcing that the product is coming in a couple of months' time.
or
2. Keep it a secret until it is ready for sale, so that some customers will buy the current product that is about to be replaced by a better one at about the same price?

Some people seem to be fans of "keep us in the dark so that the product ships as soon as it is announced"; I am not, seeing it mainly as a way to avoid depressing sales of a product that is soon to be superseded, to the benefit of the company but to the disadvantage of its customers.

Ironically, I suspect that some of these same "hide it from us until Christmas morning" people are also enthusiastic for news of leaks about forthcoming products, effectively preferring a mix of real leaks and false rumors to the more solid information that the company could be giving us about its plans.


P. S. That said, a new 40MP 44x33mm 6micron pixel sensor from Dalsa was a very easy prediction .... when will be know about Kodak's?
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4210
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2009, 11:33:23 am »

Quote from: BJL
A Question:

If a company knows in February that a new product is almost ready, and will ship in April or May, should it
1. Tell people what it knows in February, by announcing that the product is coming in a couple of months' time.
or
2. Keep it a secret until it is ready for sale, so that some customers will buy the current product that is about to be replaced by a better one at about the same price?

Some people seem to be fans of "keep us in the dark so that the product ships as soon as it is announced"; I am not, seeing it mainly as a way to avoid depressing sales of a product that is soon to be superseded, to the benefit of the company but to the disadvantage of its customers.

Ironically, I suspect that some of these same "hide it from us until Christmas morning" people are also enthusiastic for news of leaks about forthcoming products, effectively preferring a mix of real leaks and false rumors to the more solid information that the company could be giving us about its plans.

It really is a hard question. Each method has ups and downs. Medium format (all brands) is notorious for announcing a product and then either 1) it doesn't get released 2) the specs change 3) it is delayed. So this method prevents much of that problem. However, giving a roadmap for the future also has benefits. All I can say here is that if you work with a trustworthy dealer they will advise you as best as they can; we DO care about our customers both for personal reasons (I am friends with many of our best customers) as well as business reasons (happy customers = referrals and future business) and do everything we can to make sure the right product gets into their hands.

However, you should note that the P30+ was reduced in price in advance of the launch, so anyone who purchased one in the recent months should not feel cheated. If any of our customers (I can only speak as a dealer) who purchased with that lower price in the last few months still feel cheated somehow we (as a dealer) would take care of them somehow.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #130 on: April 30, 2009, 11:37:43 am »

Quote from: ThierryH
I don't get it?! Are you saying that the view of the image on the LCD screen is not the RAW? If yes, that was never the point in that discussion, and neither Nikon nor Canon, nor any DB manufacturer do display a RAW. But may be I misunderstood this one.


Why should it be thicker?!

Thierry


Simply because the jpeg is a processed file inside the back or camera and can represent differently than the actual raw file. And yes that matters a great deal and is a issue in the 35mm world because of different parameters. But as Brad points out than it is a different process from the Raw itself. But some camera's will show from a jpeg and that was what I wanted to know.



I'm simply asking a question if the back got thicker or the chassis for that matter over a older back that does not have the larger screen. Wondering about the room inside to actually carry it and the electronics.
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #131 on: April 30, 2009, 01:46:21 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I'm simply asking a question if the back got thicker or the chassis for that matter over a older back that does not have the larger screen. Wondering about the room inside to actually carry it and the electronics.

Guy, they just changed the button layout and case design to make room for it.

old:



new:

« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 01:46:54 pm by foto-z »
Logged

Daniel Browning

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #132 on: April 30, 2009, 02:03:52 pm »

The only time companies seem to announce their forthcoming products ahead of time is when they want to prevent customers from buying a *competitors* product that is superior today. They want to sell the vapor until they have time to come up with the real deal. But even then, the customer is in control of what to do with the information and how much to value or trust it. Having the information is always better, IMHO.
Logged
--Daniel

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2009, 02:12:52 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Guy, they just changed the button layout and case design to make room for it.

old:



new:



Thanks Graham. Reason I asked is I am wondering from memory I thought the Sinar back was a touch thicker than the Phase backs and seeing if Phase had to make there design a little thicker to accommodate it. By the photos you posted it actually looks small for the 65 over the 75 though which is always a good thing but just maybe the angles we are seeing. I know the Phase backs since I have one is pretty svelte as far as thickness so it may have to get a litter bigger, just a guess.
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

tho_mas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1799
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2009, 02:41:36 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
it may have to get a litter bigger, just a guess.
actaually the area is there:
[attachment=13343:p45.jpg]
Logged

mcfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
    • http://montalbetticampbell.com
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #135 on: April 30, 2009, 02:47:42 pm »

[quote name='tho_mas' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:41 PM' post='280318']
actaually the area is there:
[attachment=13343:p45.jpg]
[/quote

That looks much better.  
Logged
Denis Montalbetti
Montalbetti+Campbell [

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #136 on: April 30, 2009, 02:48:37 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Guy, they just changed the button layout and case design to make room for it.

old:



new:


Just curious Graham, what is the actual diagonal LCD dimension for both of those screens.  The reason I ask is the old one looks smaller than the Phase while the larger one is of course is larger than Phase.  I think the current Phase back has a 2.2 inch diagonal LCD at something weird like 414x532 pixels.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 02:50:27 pm by Jack Flesher »
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #137 on: April 30, 2009, 02:58:48 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Just curious Graham, what is the actual diagonal LCD dimension for both of those screens.  The reason I ask is the old one looks smaller than the Phase while the larger one is of course is larger than Phase.  I think the current Phase back has a 2.2 inch diagonal LCD at something weird like 414x532 pixels.

Hi Jack,

The older Sinar is 2.2", the newer one is 3" and 640x480. The Phase P+ backs are only 320x240 (so the Sinar has 4 times the pixel count).
Logged

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2009, 03:06:12 pm »

Looking at the Phase brochure here 2.2 QVGA TFT with 230,000 pixels whatever that works out to be

Jack multiplying your numbers it comes to 220,248

Graham yours comes to 76,800 so your both off. LOL

Okay Steve enlighten us
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 03:11:09 pm by Guy Mancuso »
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #139 on: April 30, 2009, 03:12:58 pm »

Here I will just post that page of it from Phase
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 12   Go Up