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Author Topic: New PhaseOne - P40+  (Read 105696 times)

TMARK

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« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2009, 10:21:31 am »

Quote from: Snook
What the hell you going to do with RED..
Waste a lot of time in conversion maybe..:+}
Snook

I own a third of a Red System, about a $30k investment.  I just bought a house (yesterday) in mostly cash with what I made with it over the past year or so.  Beats the hell out of shooting catalogues on seamless, geting nickel and dimed by clients.
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2009, 10:29:51 am »

4. With all due respect, Mr. Mancuso means well, I'm sure, but he seems to be too close to CI and/or Phase to be critically objective. It might be just fine for him to be "waiting by your favorite lab hoping for the miracle that you actually got it", but in this economy, (or any modern economy), hoping that you got it simply does not provide a solid foundation for a business model. Mr. Mancuso seems to be fine with living in his nostalgic memories, which on some level is fine, but when you're dropping $20-35k on the ass end of one camera, "hoping you got it" does not seem sufficient.

Give me a break . I would flip it on a dime if there was something better, you keep forgetting it's MY 20-30k money also. Proved that one about 4 times already switching systems. I'm sorry it may not be the best LCD out on the market but if you can't figure it out than you need the help not me. Please if you don't know you own abilities and your own experience there is not a LCD out there that will save your ass on any level. If a LCD is that important and your not thinking you can shoot without one. Do one of two things use a tethered solution or go get a Nikon. Your not going to fit a 3 inch screen on a back that will be effective for you.

Too close to Phase , unfreaking believable BS. When someone one actually pays me than that comment may be relative.
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BJL

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« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2009, 11:33:01 am »

Quote from: brentward
DO we know yet if the chip as micro-lenses preventing view camera use?
This is a new Dalsa 44x33mm 6 micron pixel sensor, and for this generation of sensors, Dalsa is touting a new micro-lensed sensor design which more or less eliminates the off-perpendicular sensitivity fall-off problems of all previous micro-lenses, accepting light up to about 35º off-perpendicular with only modest fall-off. That should allow use with view cameras, shifts and such, while adding the roughly one stop of sensitivity that micro-lenses give.
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2009, 02:00:31 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Personally I don't see any value in the pixel binning at all, and it seems I'm not alone. Just curious - is anyone a fan of this feature?

I'd have to agree with you.  I see it as a feature, but useful only for certain occasions -- occasions where we would all likely be better served with a good 11-22 MP, sub $3000 DSLR.   And given the cost delta, the DSLR might be a better investment...

On a similar note, the thing I find interesting is that the P40+ requiring the binning for high ISO leaves the P30+ as the only MF back I am aware of that does ISO 1600 at full resolution?  Seems to me that in and of itself is more useful than pixel binning.  At present prices this makes the P30+ an interesting value proposition as a back-up/second to my P45+ -- I would own both backs for less than the cost of the P65+ and could simply add the P30+ to my bag (it's only about the size of an 80mm lens) if I felt there was going to be a situation calling for very high ISO; the P30+ uses the same batteries and UI as my P45+, yet has over twice the binned resolution of the P65+ and 3 times the binned resolution on the P40+.  

Or am I missing something?  

« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:09:38 pm by Jack Flesher »
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ericstaud

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« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2009, 02:10:57 pm »

Quote from: BJL
This is a new Dalsa 44x33mm 6 micron pixel sensor, and for this generation of sensors, Dalsa is touting a new micro-lensed sensor design which more or less eliminates the off-perpendicular sensitivity fall-off problems of all previous micro-lenses, accepting light up to about 35º off-perpendicular with only modest fall-off. That should allow use with view cameras, shifts and such, while adding the roughly one stop of sensitivity that micro-lenses give.

I have found these kinds of claims to be meaningless.  The only way to know if this back would work for LF shooting is to shoot a test it with the 24, 35, and 47 Digitar lenses shifted to their limits.  I don't see why Phase doesn't do this.  Otherwise were just stuck reading the kind of fuzzy PR stuff that you've quoted, waiting for some sucker to buy this back and test it for the purpose of shooting architecture.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2009, 02:19:42 pm »

Quote from: ericstaud
I have found these kinds of claims to be meaningless.  The only way to know if this back would work for LF shooting is to shoot a test it with the 24, 35, and 47 Digitar lenses shifted to their limits.  I don't see why Phase doesn't do this.  Otherwise were just stuck reading the kind of fuzzy PR stuff that you've quoted, waiting for some sucker to buy this back and test it for the purpose of shooting architecture.

Or have your friendly dealer do the leg-work for you. It can be tough sometimes because there are a lot of lenses (23, 24, 28, 35, 47, 72 come to mind) and everyone will want their lens of interest to be tested. I can't speak for all dealers, but if you told us that you were interested in the back but wanted to see "X" test first then if it is at all possible we will do that test or make the equipment available for you at our studio for you to do the test yourself or give you a very good deal on a rental (when feasible) to test in your location.

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BJL

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« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2009, 02:28:35 pm »

Quote from: ericstaud
I have found these kinds of claims to be meaningless.  The only way to know if this back would work for LF shooting is to shoot a test it with the 24, 35, and 47 Digitar lenses shifted to their limits.
The claim was in a published research paper, backed by graphs of measured sensitivity fall-off as a function of off-perpendicular angle, so rather more than a fuzzy advertising claim. Of course, if you wish to believe that a company that has to sell its sensors to technically savvy customers like the companies that buy and use Dalsa sensors and uses of digital back on view cameras can get away with publishing falsified graphs or making vague claims that do not hold up in practice, I will not try to persuade you otherwise. But "I have found this kinds of cynicism to be worthless".
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2009, 02:32:31 pm »

One other comment I'd like to add to this (surprisingly mixed reaction) thread.

I want to commend Phase for holding off on announcing this back until it was actually shipping.  Now, I've not tried to buy one, but assuming Mr. Hendrix hasn't been misinformed, this is really wonderful.

As for the screen comments, as a P45+ owner, I will agree that the screen could use improvement.  (As a former P45 owner and a former Sinar eMotion75LV mark I and mark II owner, the + screens are definitely a step up IMHO.)  But still, the P45+ screen can't hold a candle to the latest in small format screens, that's for sure.  But to imply that the product isn't worth buying because it 'only' has the P45+ quality screen?  A disappointment perhaps, but I'm having a hard time understanding how it's *that* big a deal.

I know that everyone is different, but I thought I'd weigh in with positive feedback on this product, the 'restraint' in the marketing name (I'm sure SOMEBODY felt the need to call it a P46+ just to put it ahead of the P45+; honest naming is a good thing), and the simultaneous leak/announcement and (reported) product availability.

I hope both practices are here to stay.  Kudos, Phase.

-Brad
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:38:02 pm by bradleygibson »
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BJL

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« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2009, 02:37:09 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
I see it [pixel binning] as a feature, but useful only for certain occasions -- occasions where we would all likely be better served with a good 11-22 MP, sub $3000 DSLR.   And given the cost delta, the DSLR might be a better investment...
Once someone has a use for the 40MP MF option, occasionally using the 10MP binning avoids extra cost, so is cheaper and lighter than having both the MF and the 35mm gear. Though I do see it possible that 44x33mm MF is just barely keeping its tail ahead of the lunging jaws of high end 35mm ...

Quote from: Jack Flesher
On a similar note, the thing I find interesting is that the P40+ requiring the binning for high ISO leaves the P30+ as the only MF back I am aware of that does ISO 1600 at full resolution?  Seems to me that in and of itself is more useful than pixel binning.
But as far as I can tell, ISO 1600 with CCD MF sensors has no advantage over using ISO 800 at the same exposure level (same f-stop and shutter speed) and then pushing one stop in PP ... except saving a little bit of PP time. The dark noise level of these CCD's at ISO 800 is already well above the noise floor of the A/D conversion.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:37:54 pm by BJL »
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geesbert

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« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2009, 03:27:41 pm »

I think it's a joke to call 20.000 a good deal. that would buy me a 1dsmk3, a 3dx, a 5dmk2 and a Leica m8, with spare change for a lens or two....
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ericstaud

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« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2009, 03:38:44 pm »

Quote from: BJL
The claim was in a published research paper, backed by graphs of measured sensitivity fall-off as a function of off-perpendicular angle, so rather more than a fuzzy advertising claim. Of course, if you wish to believe that a company that has to sell its sensors to technically savvy customers like the companies that buy and use Dalsa sensors and uses of digital back on view cameras can get away with publishing falsified graphs or making vague claims that do not hold up in practice, I will not try to persuade you otherwise. But "I have found this kinds of cynicism to be worthless".

I'm just speaking from my experience of purchasing the Aptus 75.  The first MFDB suitable for architectural photography because of its lack of color casts.  I'm sure Dalsa had research papers too.  I'm sure Leaf was surprised when the 75 didn't behave the way they expected out in the wild.

I just read on Wikipedia that cynicism "can result from a negative evaluation of past experiences".  So yeah, I'm being cynical here.  I don't want Doug or I to run around shooting a bunch of tests to see if the P40+ works with these lenses.  I also don't think a research paper adequately answers that question.  I'm from Missouri.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 04:06:24 pm by ericstaud »
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2009, 03:47:20 pm »

Please forgive my ignorance but what is the difference in fps between this new back which is being touted as 'fastest by a large margin' and the P30+ with the new back in non pixel binning mode?.
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Boris_Epix

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« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2009, 03:48:42 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Give me a break . I would flip it on a dime if there was something better, you keep forgetting it's MY 20-30k money also. Proved that one about 4 times already switching systems. I'm sorry it may not be the best LCD out on the market but if you can't figure it out than you need the help not me. Please if you don't know you own abilities and your own experience there is not a LCD out there that will save your ass on any level. If a LCD is that important and your not thinking you can shoot without one. Do one of two things use a tethered solution or go get a Nikon. Your not going to fit a 3 inch screen on a back that will be effective for you.

So what you're saying is: If your eyes go bad you shouldn't use glasses and instead trust in your own abilities. Or if your light meter was WILDLY inaccurate you would still blame yourself? Isn't that kinda bizarre? Taking the blame for shitty equipment / tools? Don't worry, customers will put the blame on the photographer as soon as they are not happy with even the most minute thing.

Your suggestion is funny too... because that's what's happening. More and more people are getting Nikons/Canons. And that as said will lead to the death of MFDB's. And who's to blame? Nikon and Canon for their improvements or the MFDB's for their sluggish response to customer requirements?

C'mon, let's get real. We spend 3-6k$ for a single computer screen, buy color calibration devices and software to make sure that what you see is what you get. And suddenly the capture process is a non-issue? Seing what you're going to get is the reason people do tether - why people want better LCD's. Showing that crappy PhaseOne LCD to a customer  is embarrassing.

MFDB manufacturing is really about putting new sensors into old packages. And "what they can get away with" instead of real innovation. With that price tag? Current economic environment? I don't think so.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2009, 03:51:58 pm »

Quote from: geesbert
I think it's a joke to call 20.000 a good deal. that would buy me a 1dsmk3, a 3dx, a 5dmk2 and a Leica m8, with spare change for a lens or two....

Do that, and then gaffe tape them together so you can take a single shot 40 megapixel frame, and don't forget to always shoot two exposures to stack to HDR so you're getting the same ultra-clean shadows and smooth color transitions that phase p+ backs deliver (my experience being with the 20,21,25,30,45, and 65; haven't shot the 40+ yet).

Then find a way to magnify and brighten the viewfinder so that it touches the experience of a medium format body. If you can find a way for it to also mount to my Phase One body, RZ body, architecture camera and view camera then that would also be a good bonus.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2009, 04:09:33 pm »

Quote from: pom
Please forgive my ignorance but what is the difference in fps between this new back which is being touted as 'fastest by a large margin' and the P30+ with the new back in non pixel binning mode?.



Pom:

The P40+ in non-binning mode captures 40MP at 1.2 frames per second (.8 secods per frame, 72 captures per minute) versus the P30+ at 31MP capturing .75 frames per second (1.25 seconds per frame, 45 captures per minute).


Steve Hendrix
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bcooter

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« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2009, 04:09:43 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Give me a break . I would flip it on a dime if there was something better, ..................... if you don't know you own abilities and your own experience there is not a LCD out there that will save your ass on any level.


Guy, you can sing the tune of all day long of a photographer has to trust their abilities without viewing a decent lcd, but it's not my abilities I'm worried about when I'm on set.  It's getting the client to look at the lcd  and know what the hell they're looking at.   Point a phase LCD at a client, (even if the client is Phase One) and ask them if they would bet $100,000 on that preview.   You know that answer.

Trust me, until your on set with an academy award winning director screaming for "your" subject, 2 publicists, 2 personal managers, 6 ad agency principles, 11 clients and a crew of 20 . . . until a scheduled 8 hour shoot is compressed down to 2 hours, until you working in a room where the production costs are the price of a very nice resort condo, you don't really know how important it is to have a great preview and sometimes you have to pull the cord, forget the computers and shoot the damn thing and since we all got a boss, the boss gotta say "looks good".  

There is a reason Annie uses a Canon and a Nikon and it's not that she's afraid of a large camera or can't afford it.  

In a way I'm glad that Phase didn't go George Jetson on us  and stick on a 4" lcd and a sat/nav phone because the upside to this is I'm good with the hand I'm playing as no client is going to look at my Slumdog peethirtyplus and say we wish he had a Beverly Hills  peefourtyplus back.  If I want to shoot fast, I  stick on a peetwentyoneplus and honestly nobody I shoot for will notice the difference.  Not after it gets out of post production.



B

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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2009, 04:35:11 pm »

Hey believe me a larger LCD is something we all want but a larger screen that shows no detail is something we don't want either. I do commercial work too with many folks on set. If it is important than tether than rip the damn cord out if you have too. Seriously what the hell did we do before digital was even born. Come on guys not a damn thing has changed with clients except wanting it yesterday and what there not the same demanding people they where than that want it cheaper and faster . That was my point and depending on a LCD is not something I would ever count on but it's usefulness is there and it is your guide. I think we forget one simple basic law of physics here a back is maybe 4 inches wide and a Nikon like 7 inches so all the guts and all can be on either side on the LCD .Where do they do that in a back that is much smaller. I'm not joking can someone actually answer this. That is a big chunk of glass on a back and a lot that goes with it including power. I realize this is a fruitless argument because this just goes round and round and comes back to the same thing.

Trust me, until your on set with an academy award winning director screaming for "your" subject, 2 publicists, 2 personal managers, 6 ad agency principles, 11 clients and a crew of 20 . . . until a scheduled 8 hour shoot is compressed down to 2 hours, until you working in a room where the production costs are the price of a very nice resort condo, you don't really know how important it is to have a great preview and sometimes you have to pull the cord, forget the computers and shoot the damn thing and since we all got a boss, the boss gotta say "looks good".

Is this supposed to impress me or something. We ALL have important clients no matter what name tag you put on them or what demands they require.
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bcooter

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« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2009, 04:47:39 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Is this supposed to impress me or something. We ALL have important clients no matter what name tag you put on them or what demands they require.


Nobody's trying to impress you.

Your the cat that fires out the lines that we have to be good enough to trust our instincts or we're not complete.

My point is when there is a lot of money people screaming, these are the times you want to use your best camera not your worst and yes, the digital backs makes a better image under these circumstances, it's just the usability that hobbles it.

I firmly believe that what I do only has importance for about 30 days and it hits the bottom of the birdcage, so no I'm not trying to impress you, or think anything I do will change the world.

Then again, what would the medium format market be like if they could sell to people that shoot under real pressure like wedding photographers (I'm not kidding about this). There opportunity is only there for a moment and they have to get the shot and have to be sure they got it.

With the iso, the speed a peefourtyplus would be good for wedding guys, but not if they have to judge off the lcd.

I just see these annoucements to be like hearing GM designed a new Suburban.  Uh ok, I guess it will sell, but to how many and is it the vehicle for our times?

B
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Streetshooter

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« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2009, 04:55:11 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Hey believe me a larger LCD is something we all want but a larger screen that shows no detail is something we don't want either. I do commercial work too with many folks on set. If it is important than tether than rip the damn cord out if you have too. Seriously what the hell did we do before digital was even born. Come on guys not a damn thing has changed with clients except wanting it yesterday and what there not the same demanding people they where than that want it cheaper and faster . That was my point and depending on a LCD is not something I would ever count on but it's usefulness is there and it is your guide. I think we forget one simple basic law of physics here a back is maybe 4 inches wide and a Nikon like 7 inches so all the guts and all can be on either side on the LCD .Where do they do that in a back that is much smaller. I'm not joking can someone actually answer this. That is a big chunk of glass on a back and a lot that goes with it including power. I realize this is a fruitless argument because this just goes round and round and comes back to the same thing.

Trust me, until your on set with an academy award winning director screaming for "your" subject, 2 publicists, 2 personal managers, 6 ad agency principles, 11 clients and a crew of 20 . . . until a scheduled 8 hour shoot is compressed down to 2 hours, until you working in a room where the production costs are the price of a very nice resort condo, you don't really know how important it is to have a great preview and sometimes you have to pull the cord, forget the computers and shoot the damn thing and since we all got a boss, the boss gotta say "looks good".

Is this supposed to impress me or something. We ALL have important clients no matter what name tag you put on them or what demands they require.

Guy,

 You can defend the MFDB makers until the cows come home. But unless they start giving the customers what they want (and the majority want a decent state of the art screen) then the market will decide their fate, and we all know what that will be. That's why more and more people are migrating to Canon and Nikon.

Most of the clients I know all want to see what they are spending their money on at the time it is being shot. In the past it was via a Polaroid now it is the LCD screen or monitor if you're working tethered. The crap screens are the main reason I haven't bought a MFDB.  I mean, who are they kidding, 20 grand for a screen like that ? !!!

Pete
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 05:55:20 pm by Streetshooter »
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william

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« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2009, 04:58:55 pm »

As someone who owned Phase backs with a Contax 645 for several years (the P30 then the P30+) and then recently sold my Phase back and am now shooting a D3X instead, I'll jump in here.

It's worth noting at the outset that I wrote a glowing review/report of the P30 for this very site a couple of years back:

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/came...%20review.shtml

I stand by what I said then -- the P30 was the finest capture device I'd shot with at that time.

But now ain't then.  Comparing the digital end of my former setup (P30+ versus D3X), I concluded that there was little to be gained in terms of image quality by shooting with the P30+ for my type of work.  So when Doug suggests that you'd have to "tape together" a couple of D3Xs to get the image quality of a single shot frame from a P40+, I have trouble believing that's true.  At the time I wrote my P30 report, my base of comparison was the only full frame 35mm cameras then available, the Canon 1Ds Mark II and the Canon 5D, both of which I shot extensively.  I concluded that as compared to those cameras, the P30 did offer MUCH better color, tonal transitions, and color depth (in a non-technical sense) and that the P30 files were more "robust", that is, they could better handle a greater range of adjustments in post-production.  It's worth noting, however, that even as compared to my 1Ds Mark II and 5D, I did NOT find that the P30 and P30+ offered "ultra-clean" shadows in terms of noise at base ISO  (the shadow-to-highlight transitions did look better on the P30/+, however).

Now, however, I have found that the D3X matches the P30+ in terms of color, tonal transitions, and color depth.  From my brief testing of a 1Ds Mark III, I feel relatively sure the same is true of that camera as well.  And as we all know, the 35mm full frame cameras beat any medium format back in terms of noise at higher ISOs, responsiveness, etc.

Nor was I convinced to keep my P30+ (and certainly not to upgrade to a P40+) by the marginal increase in resolution over a D3X.  But then, I'm not a landscape shooter where the highest degree of micro-detail and maximum resolution are make-or-break propositions.  The fact is that 24 megapixels of the D3X is certainly resolution enough for any conceivable screen usage, and for reasonably large prints (16x24 at about 240ppi, if memory and math serve me correctly).

One additional area where I always felt the 35mm style digital cameras fell down compared to the Phase backs was with regard to the moderate, but noticeable, effect of the AA filter on the 35mm cameras.  The images form the P30 would just "pop" at me straight out of the camera before sharpening in a way that the 35mm images never did.  But I did a side by side portrait shoot with the P30+ (remember, with contax lenses, including the spectacularly sharp 120mm macro) and the D3x with both Nikon and Zeiss lenses, and I have to say, the effect of the AA filter is far less pronounced with the D3x than any other 35mm digital that I've shot with, other than the Leica R9/Digital Module R system.  This is especially true when the D3X files are processed in Capture NX or Capture One.  I truly was not expecting to be as impressed with the look of D3X files as I have been, especially in direct comparison to side-by-sides with the P30+ from the same shoot.  There were certainly P30+ images from that shoot that I preferred over the D3X files, but that was because of the different look of medium format lenses, especially for headshots or head and shoulders work.

Here's my point: For someone who doesn't shoot landscape (where micro detail and absolutely the highest numerical resolution has some actual objective benefit) or architecture shooters (who need to be able to to use tilt/shift and/or a view camera), the technological improvements in the D3X over the last generation of full frame 35mm cameras has narrowed the gap with regard to medium format digital such that, in terms of the digital back end, I have a very hard time justifying the massive cost difference.

That said, the analog front-end is what almost led me to keep the P30+.  I like shooting medium format.  And medium format lenses provide a "look" that's different from 35mm (not sharpness, resolution, or depth of field alone, but some combination of these and other factors).  So if shooting medium format -- as opposed to medium format DIGITAL -- offers some real benefit to you, then I think it makes sense to go the digital medium format route.  Not because the digital end is that much better than 35mm digital like the D3X to justify the additional cost in terms of visual image quality (as opposed to "look").

Don't get me wrong; as I said, I'm a Phase fan and I'm sure the P40+ will be great.  And if I were independently wealthy or earning the kind of revenue where cost didn't matter, or shooting architecture or landscape, I'd have kept my P30+ and/or bought a P40+ to go along with the D3x.





Quote from: dougpetersonci
Do that, and then gaffe tape them together so you can take a single shot 40 megapixel frame, and don't forget to always shoot two exposures to stack to HDR so you're getting the same ultra-clean shadows and smooth color transitions that phase p+ backs deliver (my experience being with the 20,21,25,30,45, and 65; haven't shot the 40+ yet).

Then find a way to magnify and brighten the viewfinder so that it touches the experience of a medium format body. If you can find a way for it to also mount to my Phase One body, RZ body, architecture camera and view camera then that would also be a good bonus.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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