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mcfoto

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« Reply #180 on: May 01, 2009, 04:40:37 pm »

Quote from: James R Russell
The layout of the phase backs need to change anyway.  The buttons on the side are way too easy to push around when moving fast and though after a period you learn the process, it is not the world's most intuitive design.

As far as the lcd, who cares if it's 240,000 vs, 920,000, it just depends on what it looks like and it ain't that pretty.

Still, there is nothing new about this and nothing Phase or their dealers don't know about.  In fact I'm positive if the new p40 and p65 had a high rez 3" lcd, all the talk would be how crappy the old lcds were, (think 3.7 previews vs. 4.8 previews).

This is just selling what you got and for the price I think most of us want more.

Now the strange thing about all this is the Sinar did hit all of the right buttons (pun intended) and obviously theirry or someone at Sinar was listening.  High rez lcd, in camera processing, dng native files out of camera and I don't spend my life digging around camera stores, but I've never seen this new Sinar in the flesh, in fact the 4 Sinars I've seen in 4 separate dealers all had dead batteries, which leads me to believe Sinar needs some serious marketing effort of their product.

JRR

I know this is off the topic but when it comes to Sinar here in Australia, Sun Studios just dropped Sinar ( Feb 2009 ) & has kept Leaf. The very first shoot I did was with a Sinar 2x2 chip in 1999 & that was when Sinar & Leaf were working together. Then in 2000 Sinar & Leaf went it alone. I started shooting ( renting & still do ) with Leaf, I just liked the software better & liked the file quality. But since 2000, where Sinar was in the top three now they are in the no 4 position. And letting go of Thiery was a stupid idea since no one has replaced him on this form. Sinar better wake up & being very quiet about F&H over the past 6 weeks is not helping either.

Denis
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ThierryH

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« Reply #181 on: May 01, 2009, 08:05:57 pm »

hi Denis,

Just a little, nevertheless IMPORTANT precision: there is MUCH more behind what you may know or have been told by Sun Studios concerning the change of Sinar's distributor in AU. Saying that Sun Studios has dropped Sinar is not corresponding to the reality at all.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: mcfoto
I know this is off the topic but when it comes to Sinar here in Australia, Sun Studios just dropped Sinar ( Feb 2009 ) & has kept Leaf.
Denis
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simplify

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« Reply #182 on: May 01, 2009, 09:02:14 pm »

I can't ever complain about a new camera.  I almost think this is a good thing for previous + back owners.  Long exposures is priceless to me and many others, therefor I think the value of the P45+ will stay up a little.  The P45+ is still the highest resolution DB with exposures longer than 1 minute.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #183 on: May 02, 2009, 04:04:16 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
No, Leica is using something else with 3:2 ratio (unfortunately)

Well, considering that Leica has always used this format, and that the S2 appears to be going after the high-end DSLR crowd, you can see where they are coming from. For every photographer complaining about 3:2, there are 10 (or more) who don't. I am not saying I like it, just that I don't think it is necessarily a bad decision.
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ziocan

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« Reply #184 on: May 02, 2009, 07:38:04 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
So that means the trade in value of a PeeThirtyPlus is now $500?

Sounds like a good deal.


Remember

Battle Of The Medium Format Wars is brought to you by
JUST STICKER IT a cost effective new way to upgrade your
digital back without having to remortgage your home.
Comes in 12 new designs, Phase P95+, Hasselblad H4dIII60, LeafAFI4-v2-75 and Sinar Espresso 31.



B
No.
It is like saying we can shove it up...
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #185 on: May 02, 2009, 07:58:21 pm »

Quote from: BJL
A Question:

If a company knows in February that a new product is almost ready, and will ship in April or May, should it
1. Tell people what it knows in February, by announcing that the product is coming in a couple of months' time.
or
2. Keep it a secret until it is ready for sale, so that some customers will buy the current product that is about to be replaced by a better one at about the same price?

It's a good question--there's not going to be a good answer for everybody, but I can tell you where I stand...  It depends on if I'm the manufacturer or the consumer!

As a consumer (I'm pretty decisive), I'd prefer option 1.  I can deal with the ambiguity, factor in the company's track record of shipping, estimate the pricing impact to the current model(s) and decide whether or not go with the current model.

As a manufacturer, it's a bit trickier.  If I feel that the competition has the upper hand in their product line, I'll be much more likely to pre-announce, in an attempt to prevent defection/new customers from going over to the other side.  On the other hand, if I feel that I'm the 800-lb gorilla, I'll play my cards close to my chest, so as not to tip off the competition to my next-generation feature set.  Some of my customers will be frustrated with me, but I can deal with that separately (offer sliding scale rebates or special trade-ins for recent purchasers, for example), should that be necessary.

-Brad
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #186 on: May 02, 2009, 08:02:23 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
We can do a reality show "Battle Of The Medium Format Wars".

LOL!!
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #187 on: May 02, 2009, 08:08:54 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
QVGA means 320x240 pixels. P1 have obscured this very low resolution by not only multiplying the number of pixels, but counting each R, G and B pixel as a separate pixel. I like the Phase backs but this kind of marketing nonsense gets to me. It's an insult to the customers, imo. Why not just tell the truth and print 320x240 which is what everyone will understand and wants to know?

320 x 240 x 3 = 230,400

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QVGA

I completely agree.  Yep, I hate this too.  Just makes everything confusing.

Traditionally a pixel is a full-color element.  If it's just "R", it's not a pixel, it's a sub-pixel, a sensel, or whatever.

I teach this stuff and my beginner students are thoroughly confused at the start.

Message to manufacturers: Truth in advertising is not a bad thing!

Many of us laughed at Hasselblad for their "full frame" marketing shenanigans.  But now Phase takes up with mantle with the P65+.  "Almost full-frame" would be just fine in my book.  (And for anybody who disagrees, I'll happily give you 94 cents for every dollar you give me.)

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now.  

-Brad

P.S.  Love those big-screen P45+'s!  Sexy.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 10:10:47 am by bradleygibson »
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georgl

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« Reply #188 on: May 03, 2009, 05:59:15 am »

"I completely agree. Yep, I hate this too. Just makes everything confusing.

Traditionally a pixel is a full-color element. If it's just "R", it's not a pixel, it's a sub-pixel, a sensel, or whatever."

Absolutely right, RED does the same with their video-cameras. Resolution in the professionel video/cinematic-world was always measured in real color information. They buy a 12MP-sensor with bayer-filtering (which isn't used by professional systems for a good reason) and claim it's "4k" but basically just creating huge files, which are compressed again to tiny files, which are then called RAW...

I'm not surprised about this stuff in the mass-market but 20k$-RED or Hasselblad lying to pros? Does that really work? Well, it seems so, long enough to bring "honest" companies into deep trouble...
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Carsten W

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« Reply #189 on: May 03, 2009, 02:12:29 pm »

Quote from: georgl
"I completely agree. Yep, I hate this too. Just makes everything confusing.

Traditionally a pixel is a full-color element. If it's just "R", it's not a pixel, it's a sub-pixel, a sensel, or whatever."

Absolutely right, RED does the same with their video-cameras. Resolution in the professionel video/cinematic-world was always measured in real color information. They buy a 12MP-sensor with bayer-filtering (which isn't used by professional systems for a good reason) and claim it's "4k" but basically just creating huge files, which are compressed again to tiny files, which are then called RAW...

I'm not surprised about this stuff in the mass-market but 20k$-RED or Hasselblad lying to pros? Does that really work? Well, it seems so, long enough to bring "honest" companies into deep trouble...

The digital film industry traditionally measures the long edge of the frame in k for thousands of pixels, which for a 12MP sensor (4520x2540) really is about 4000, i.e. 4k.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 02:15:01 pm by carstenw »
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BJL

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« Reply #190 on: May 03, 2009, 05:28:04 pm »

Quote from: bradleygibson
As a consumer (I'm pretty decisive), I'd prefer option 1.  ... As a manufacturer, it's a bit trickier.  If I feel that the competition has the upper hand in their product line, I'll be much more likely to pre-announce, in an attempt to prevent defection/new customers from going over to the other side.  On the other hand, if I feel that I'm the 800-lb gorilla, I'll play my cards close to my chest, so as not to tip off the competition to my next-generation feature set.
Much like my thoughts; along with keeping a coming upgrade secret to protect a current product from depressed demand.

The other extreme that I did not mention is "vaporware": announcing an optimistic release date for a product that you hope to have some time in the future, to compete with something that a competitor already has or will have before you, perhaps to avoid defections. The Hasselblad announcement last September of an H3DII-60 coming this April is looking like a case of that. (Not that I mind knowing that Hasselblad is working on such a product; only the dodgy availability dates bother me.)
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ziocan

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« Reply #191 on: May 03, 2009, 09:16:06 pm »

Quote from: BJL
Much like my thoughts; along with keeping a coming upgrade secret to protect a current product from depressed demand.

The other extreme that I did not mention is "vaporware": announcing an optimistic release date for a product that you hope to have some time in the future, to compete with something that a competitor already has or will have before you, perhaps to avoid defections. The Hasselblad announcement last September of an H3DII-60 coming this April is looking like a case of that. (Not that I mind knowing that Hasselblad is working on such a product; only the dodgy availability dates bother me.)
normally your competitors knows what you are coming up with next, early enough.
the public does not.
so, if you think that releasing a statement of a new product coming in the future can hurt your competitors sales, then, sure you release the statement.
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #192 on: May 03, 2009, 10:00:33 pm »

I'd bet Dalsa's at least a big part of this delay.  The new sensor is supposedly crazy low yield at the moment.  Painful for all concerned (customers, Phase and Hasselblad).  Dalsa, too, I expect...

Quote from: BJL
Much like my thoughts; along with keeping a coming upgrade secret to protect a current product from depressed demand.

The other extreme that I did not mention is "vaporware": announcing an optimistic release date for a product that you hope to have some time in the future, to compete with something that a competitor already has or will have before you, perhaps to avoid defections. The Hasselblad announcement last September of an H3DII-60 coming this April is looking like a case of that. (Not that I mind knowing that Hasselblad is working on such a product; only the dodgy availability dates bother me.)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 10:01:53 pm by bradleygibson »
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georgl

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« Reply #193 on: May 04, 2009, 04:03:28 am »

"which for a 12MP sensor (4520x2540) really is about 4000, i.e. 4k"

Yes, when you shoot B/W. Professional video cameras create a signal with full color-information without any interpolation. Video-images have to be handled very carefully in post, even small artifacts that can be dealt with in single-photography-images (like oversharpening, moire, interpolation artifacts) make video-images nearly unusable by professional standards. To create a 1920lines wide signal they use 3x 1920x1080pixel-sensors or filtered sensors which have at least 6MP (1920x1080x3) - 4k-color-cameras don't exist yet except for prototypes (33MP on a 18x24mm-sensor! Have you seen the noise...). But this cheap trick worked, of course "4k" is not HD anymore but the standard digital-cinema with much higher resolution and people bought it!

It's like the trick with the display-pixels, RED is counting "sub-pixels", others do not, therefore RED has higher resolution, just like a 920000pixel-LCD (640x480xRGB) has a higher resolution than a 307000pixel-LCD (640RGB-pixels x 480RGB-pixels)...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:25:38 am by georgl »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #194 on: May 04, 2009, 09:58:29 am »

Quote from: georgl
It's like the trick with the display-pixels, RED is counting "sub-pixels", others do not, therefore RED has higher resolution, just like a 920000pixel-LCD (640x480xRGB) has a higher resolution than a 307000pixel-LCD (640RGB-pixels x 480RGB-pixels)...

Well, not really. If it has three different sensors, offset to give a combined 4k image, then that is really almost exactly like what regular still digital cameras do. Whether other cameras output full RGB or interpolated RGB is irrelevant here. The important part, for that spec, is what image is output, not how they got there. One can argue that it has less resolution than other cameras or not, that is a separate matter.

In other words, unless you consider a 5D Mark II to have 7MP, the RED has 4k, since it does the same interpolation. In fact, it is even better, since the three sensors means that the three sub-channels actually sample larger areas, and are therefore more representative.

However, if the three colour sensors are *not* offset, but deliver exactly the same view with 1920x1080 resolution, then yeah, they are hyping their tech beyond believability. I presume that they are offset, for exactly this reason.

In fact, the same measuring standard is exactly why Foveon's 14MP claim is garbage: the sensor outputs 4.7MP, with full colour information, not 14MP. (Upressing an entire image is something completely different than interpolation between offset colour signals.)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 10:01:55 am by carstenw »
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PeterA

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« Reply #195 on: May 04, 2009, 10:01:35 am »

Quote from: John Schweikert
Read the specs of the Red camera, http://www.red.com/cameras/tech_specs

You don't seem to understand that the Red cam is not your mom's HD camera.

The single sensor is 4520 (h) x 2540 (v) that shoots a color raw frame, up to 30 times a second. It's like a raw 5D frame shooting in motion at a different aspect ratio, but not the same physical size. As far as the Red camera, they aren't making up any of the specs. Unlike the Sigma DP-1 which states it's a 14 MP camera, now that's a joke.


But John - reading the specs - would umm..require ..liek some ..you know...reading... LOL

 the RED technology is very scary to a traditional mindset...umm decisive moment? which one would you like ...or better yet ..which view of the decisive moment do you prefer? LOL

still i wouldn't fancy trying to carry around one of the current model REDS to shoot with..the big challenge will be size and portability ...pretty much rules out hand held street/candid/landscape..etc..
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georgl

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« Reply #196 on: May 04, 2009, 11:26:01 am »

"In other words, unless you consider a 5D Mark II to have 7MP, the RED has 4k"

Yes, the resolution-specs given in still-photography are also wrong, because it's interpolated. That isn't such a big deal, because it's still comparable to other systems, because they all interpolate and most of the time you can deal with the artifacts. But when Foveon arrived, it made it quite difficult for them to explain the difference of their system, that's why they multiplied the resolution for RGB, which also isn't comparable to a bayer-filtered image with the same size.

But professional video-cams are different, nobody ever used color-interpolation. Professional (cine-)cameras like the Panavision Genesis use a 12MP-CMOS-Super35-sensor just like the RED but the output is an uncompressed, uninterpolated signal with 1080p (4:4:4). RED interpolates from a quite similar sensor (single CMOS, 12MP, Super35-size) a 4k-signal and compresses it, giving a much lower data-rate at 4 times the image size! It's pure marketing, because they wanted to offer something beyond HDTV and 4k is about the resolution of 35mm-film. http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awi...ex1_f23_red/P2/ Here is one of the few comparisons, it's not entirely fair, because there are sharper lenses for the RED (but not so much in the center at this aperture) but it demonstrates the quality of systems without color interpolation (forget about the sharpening).

Most Pros don't buy it and use the Genesis or D-21 when they have to use digital (mostly for TV-series) but "newcomers" who come from the classical prosumer-market (with small 1/3"-sensors) don't have this comparison and just see "4k" or count megapixels... It's unbelieveable that customers fall for this when investing more than 20k$!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 11:31:08 am by georgl »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #197 on: May 04, 2009, 12:59:36 pm »

As far as I understand, the RED's attraction isn't the high res only anyway, but also the fact that it is the first camera to offer a proper raw pipeline with required tools, giving more scope for better image quality. The interpolation at those resolutions is less of an issue than at lower resolutions anyway, and in moving pictures as well, where the information is just seen for a fraction of a second. Another attraction of the RED is the very low price-point compared to anything similar, as well as the very modular approach taken. Whether one likes the interpolated results or not, there are many interesting reasons. The "rolling shutter" problem is far more serious, IMO, and RED hasn't properly dealt with it yet. I work in the computer graphics/motion pictures industry, and I know some people who have to work with the generated material to make it look good. None of them complain about image quality, but there are lots of complaints about having to fix rolling shutter issues, and the tools for it aren't very good yet.
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Snook

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« Reply #198 on: May 04, 2009, 03:45:28 pm »

WHy doesn't anybody talk about the space and time needed to transfer the RAW format?
For one I would like to know but have rumors that is is a PITA right now. Maybe better in the future?
Anybody care to comment.
Also I have been on a lot of local TV commercials lately, I am shooting the campaigns with the actors and usually have to wait in between takes. When conversing with some of the directors they have told me that they mainly still shoot film b/c the DOF on digital is supposedly "crap" in their minds.
I thought most were shooting HD by now, But they told me not so as most guys do not like the outcome!
I was watching them film a sectio and the actors looked so shiny (sweat) and I said to my self that would look like crap on digital and that is when thye told me they do not shoot digital. I saw the commercial finally on TV and in deed to the shine was not there.

I for one know nothing about filming video, but am always interested in new things.

What is the reality and how soon do you think people will actually be able to film a few minutes of a session and use the clips from a session for Print like Magazines and or Billboards...
Where I live they are just starting to install HD cables for TV here and may take a while for it to be the norm.

By the way the Director of the TV commercial was a fellow Advertising photographer tha has gone to Video and mainly does TV commercials now.

Thanks for any more information or opionions on the matter.
Snook



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Carsten W

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« Reply #199 on: May 04, 2009, 04:34:16 pm »

Most video cameras, including the high-end ones, use very small sensors, so they have large depth of field. I can well imagine that this does not enamour them with more visually creative directors who like having DoF as another tool in the bag.
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