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bcooter

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2009, 10:37:56 am »

Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
Back in April 2006 we did a promotion for the ZD camera. As we all know Mamiya was sold to another company in April 2006. Gay & I were at the PMA show in Sydney on May 1st/2006 & the word on the floor was Mamiya was going out of business. After wards when I talked to the agent for Mamiya he said that news basicly killed the sales for the ZD. Sure maybe the ZD wasn't the best but word on the street was not good.
 This is now 2009 in not the best of economic times, hell the US car market dropped about 40% year to year. Now the MFD sector has not been strong for a few years...... Now we hear this news about the Hy6.......does this instill  confidence in the market? I don't think so! When we shoot MFD our choice is Leaf. These are very interesting times!
Denis


A lot of people would have loved to see a low cost medium format camera succeed but the problem with the Mamiya wasn't only rumor.   The issue was the product was out of date the moment it hit the shelves.  Tiny lcd, low iso, small buffer, technical problems and half baked software just for 22mpx.

Yes the economy is tough right now, but it is just the market righting itself and even if we weren't in a global recession, there is only so many $30,000 to $50,000 camera systems a photographer (any photographer) is willing to absorb.  Actually there is only so many $15,000 upgrades your willing to accept until you just say enough is enough.  

At some point 20% more detail just doesn't justify the costs and honestly go through the archives of great photographs and tell me if any one of them would be improved if they had 20% more detail.

I always say perception is reality until times get tough, then logic takes over.   We've all seen every digital device we own get passed every 11 to 18 months by a new model, which promises a lot, but only delivers incremental changes.  It just stands to reason at some point you skip it model or two.

The upside to all of this  is if you have the money, the slightly used and refurbished market is making some very strong deals.

I find all of the news lately to be sad mostly for the workers that are laid off.  That's the heartbreaker and you have to wonder why it got that way.  

Is the market really that small, could the cameras have been better, did management fail or is it that lower cost options are so close in quality that spending another $20,000 or so dollars just don't give that much return?

Even on this forum self proclaimed medium format brand junkies are not buying high end equipment, they're not even looking at a $8,000 nikon, but instead the Sony, because it's $5,000 less.  That has to tell you something.

Regardless of the news of the HY6, the fact is it's difficult to get real unbiased information.  I know today I can call 4 dealers, 4 camera reps and 4 people in management of all of the respective medium format companies and get a widely different opinion on who will be and who won't be in business in 12 months.

The medium format industry needs less rumor and more real clarity.  

The thought that a successful photographer can't afford a $40,000 camera is wrong, but if your doing smart business you will allocate your funds where they have the most positive effect and in the professional world what we put in front of the lens usually has a lot more to do with gaining business than what kind or brand of camera we use.

Personally, I'd like to see all he camera makers prosper because it is a reflection on our industry as a whole.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:02:51 am by bcooter »
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jjlphoto

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2009, 11:16:04 am »

There is PhaseOne, Kodak/Leaf, Dalsa, Jenoptik, Mamiya, Schneider, Rodenstock, Zeiss, & Leica. (Leica seems to be now preoccupied with their S-2, so I don't really see them entering the MF market.) I also don't think the Mamiya platform has the clout the be the only other MF choice (next to Hasselblad). There will certainly be more consolidation and partnering with the rest of these high quality companies, so in time I expect a truly superb MF system with great German optics we can actually afford. (I guess that leaves Sinar out of it    )
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:17:45 am by jjlphoto »
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laughingbear

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« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2009, 12:19:07 pm »

Sometimes things are happening really fast.

LEICA has a new CEO, Andreas Kaufmann is out!

The new one is Rudolf Spiller.

I agree with Michael and others, sadly this shake up has just begun, and I also think there will be only two left after the storm.

Best wishes
Oceanviewstudio
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 12:22:21 pm by laughingbear »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2009, 12:28:04 pm »

Quote from: laughingbear
LEICA has a new CEO, Andreas Kaufmann is out!
The new one is Rudolf Spiller.
seems not quite right.
A. Kaufmann moves back to the supervisory board, as planned.

http://www.gfw.de/newsticker/detail.html?id=21212
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laughingbear

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« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2009, 01:05:47 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
seems not quite right.
A. Kaufmann moves back to the supervisory board, as planned.

http://www.gfw.de/newsticker/detail.html?id=21212


Well, I should have said no longer CEO... yes he moves to the supervisory board.
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mmurph

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« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2009, 02:29:06 pm »

It will take quite some time to sort this all out.

Even the best run, most profitable companies in the world - like Toyota - are hard on the ropes right now. How long can you support 50% excess capacity - people, plants, taxes, etc.  

Failure right now does not suggest a poorly or well executed strategy (though it may.)  It might just be that a company took on an acquisition, or too much R&D, or can't get financing for their next product cycle.

I have sat in on a board meeting at a US Fortune 5 company where the question was: to kill, downsize, sell, or expand a division of 2,000+ employees?

No-one knew what the outcome would be 2/3 of the way through the meeting! It is impossible to second guess any company's plans at this point without being very close to the CEO and board.

How many of us sold out all of our stock at the peak 14 months ago?  Or our houses when they were still worth something ....  

This is a unique - and frightening - learning opportunity.


To Rainer's point, part of the "irony" in the purchase of these systems by "amatuers", is the fact that as a business, we have to do a clear cost/benefit analysis before a major purchase.   As enthusiasts that is not required.

Not really about talent, just intent - making money, or doing certain types of (personal) work.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 02:37:49 pm by mmurph »
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JerryReed

Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2009, 03:38:20 pm »

Quote from: mmurph
It will take quite some time to sort this all out.

Even the best run, most profitable companies in the world - like Toyota - are hard on the ropes right now. How long can you support 50% excess capacity - people, plants, taxes, etc.  

Failure right now does not suggest a poorly or well executed strategy (though it may.)  It might just be that a company took on an acquisition, or too much R&D, or can't get financing for their next product cycle.

I have sat in on a board meeting at a US Fortune 5 company where the question was: to kill, downsize, sell, or expand a division of 2,000+ employees?

No-one knew what the outcome would be 2/3 of the way through the meeting! It is impossible to second guess any company's plans at this point without being very close to the CEO and board.

How many of us sold out all of our stock at the peak 14 months ago?  Or our houses when they were still worth something ....  

This is a unique - and frightening - learning opportunity.


To Rainer's point, part of the "irony" in the purchase of these systems by "amatuers", is the fact that as a business, we have to do a clear cost/benefit analysis before a major purchase.   As enthusiasts that is not required.

Not really about talent, just intent - making money, or doing certain types of (personal) work.


Michael.

I am wishing you well.

Jerry
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eronald

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« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2009, 03:52:53 pm »

Frankly, the Leica s2 is a non-runner outside the MF market, the sensor is basically obsolete at launch, IMHO, not fast enough.
Will shoot well with studio flash and good outdoors light.
Maybe Kodak will do them a new sensor before launch but I have my doubts about that.

Edmund
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mcfoto

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« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2009, 03:57:12 pm »

Leaf still has the option of Mamiya. In the US the Mac group is the agent for both Leaf & Mamiya. The DL28 is one example at a very good price. The alliance with Phase & Mamiya has really boosted Mamiya. Go back a few years when Hasselbad went the H3D route & Sinar/Leaf went with the Hy6 platform. Phase had no where to go but to Mamiya & today they have the AFDIII/Phase which has a much better shutter lag. Plus you still can get some inexpensive glass on eBay. Even though I sold my ZD camera I still have a Mamiya kit with the option of renting a back when needed. A good friend of mine in Melbourne bought an used Aptus 22 for his AFd body & he loves it.

I have to give credit to Phase for there software. When I talk to digital operators they know Phase One more than anyone else for tethered shooting. Plus the fact it works for Canon & Nikon in the tethered mode. So Phase is making money selling there software to non Phase One back owners is a very smart business model.

Denis
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Leonardo Barreto

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2009, 04:27:31 pm »

If there is no Hy6 -- note the "if" --, then the MF status going through the economic adjustment will be that there are two reflex system, (or two and a half if we count the H-1 H-2) and only one opened for PhaseOne, Leaf and SINAR: the AFD

Probably new heroic attempts to raid the AF market from Leica, Nikon or Canon will have to wait.


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AndreNapier

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« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2009, 03:06:16 am »

Quote from: EricWHiss
This is terrible news...  :-(
 
But maybe if not Jenoptic, then Kodak or even Phase would buy them?    Seems like a fantastic platform with lots of potential still untapped.     Man I hope who ever buys them will come out with a big square back!

I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Also a number of demo AFi 7 with 80mm/2.8 AFD  with 1 year warranty is available for $17,995. What a sweet deal.
Of course not for me since I bought my AFi7, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 180mm and a 45 prism just a week ago at a regular price. As my wife says, do not cry and rather consider it your personal stimulus package to jump start US economy. Tough and interesting times we live in. Losing 10K in just a week I recently have to consider not that bad of a week after all.  I could have easily retired two years ago at the age of 45 and never worry about money but instead I decided to watch it melt away like an ice on a desert to keep me a purpose in life. Well, I still keep a good mood and a smile on my face for at least as long as my health insurance is going to be covering my Prozac. LOL.
Andre
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ThierryH

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« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2009, 04:54:11 am »

Andre,

I appreciate your sense of humor and coolness a lot!

 

Best regards,
Thierry


Quote from: AndreNapier
I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Also a number of demo AFi 7 with 80mm/2.8 AFD  with 1 year warranty is available for $17,995. What a sweet deal.
Of course not for me since I bought my AFi7, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 180mm and a 45 prism just a week ago at a regular price. As my wife says, do not cry and rather consider it your personal stimulus package to jump start US economy. Tough and interesting times we live in. Losing 10K in just a week I recently have to consider not that bad of a week after all.  I could have easily retired two years ago at the age of 45 and never worry about money but instead I decided to watch it melt away like an ice on a desert to keep me a purpose in life. Well, I still keep a good mood and a smile on my face for at least as long as my health insurance is going to be covering my Prozac. LOL.
Andre
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yaya

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2009, 05:10:51 am »

Quote from: AndreNapier
I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Also a number of demo AFi 7 with 80mm/2.8 AFD  with 1 year warranty is available for $17,995. What a sweet deal.
Of course not for me since I bought my AFi7, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 180mm and a 45 prism just a week ago at a regular price. As my wife says, do not cry and rather consider it your personal stimulus package to jump start US economy. Tough and interesting times we live in. Losing 10K in just a week I recently have to consider not that bad of a week after all.  I could have easily retired two years ago at the age of 45 and never worry about money but instead I decided to watch it melt away like an ice on a desert to keep me a purpose in life. Well, I still keep a good mood and a smile on my face for at least as long as my health insurance is going to be covering my Prozac. LOL.
Andre

Hey Andre did you not buy a new AFi-II 7? Great deal from Calumet but it is an ex. demo unit with an older back that doesn't have the new tilt LCD screen and the rotating sensor...
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H1/A75 Guy

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« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2009, 10:14:55 am »

Quote from: AndreNapier
I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Well, thats an interesting twist. You gotta know the Leafites can handle a struggle.  Although, I always envisioned Leaf America operating out of a storage locker just down the hall from MAC Group. They may have to expand. LOL!!

Don't feel bad about what you you spent on the AFi 7. I lost 15k on the sale of the H1/A75 (nice back, H sucked eggs big time) and spent another 15k for the AFi II 7, 50mm, 80mm, and 110mm. I should have been a dentist, or should have seen a dentist. Watching the money evaporate made my teeth hurt.

Let us know how you like the 45 prism compared to the WLF.

Yes, Life is better with an AFi.

We'll have to stay on top of Yaya for the etched Focus Screen.

David
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 02:19:49 pm by H1/A75 Guy »
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2009, 12:13:47 pm »

Isn't Leaf=Kodak? They could -if they want-, keep the Afi pipeline going. But, isn't the design proprietary of Franke & Heidecke? They would have to buy it from them. By the way, I think that there was a lot of top of the line work done on Leaf's website http://www.leaf-photography.com/ and the virtual show room of the AFi II with the rotating sensor and movable LCD... is this the work of Lear America or Kodak?

Leaf America seams to be pushing more in the direction of other than AFi platforms... this is a quote from their site:

[blockquote]With the popularity of the new Mamiya DL-28, many existing owners of mamiya AFD-II and AFD-III camera systems have requested the opportunity to step into digital at a great price, without investing in another camera body. Therefore, for a limited time, Leaf is offering the new Leaf Aptus-II 6 (as featured on the DL-28) at an astoundingly low price.[/blockquote]

If Leaf America is the one in charge of "take over production" of the AFi, should they not promote the system instead of talking about "the popularity of ... Mamiya..."
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Mitchell Baum

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« Reply #135 on: March 06, 2009, 12:36:15 pm »

The AFI/Hy6 is owned by Jenoptic which also owns Sinar. They commissioned F&H to make the camera.

Best,

Mitchell


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hubell

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« Reply #136 on: March 06, 2009, 12:52:05 pm »

Quote from: AndreNapier
I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Andre

If I ran Leaf, I would be a lot more anxious to communicate directly with my potential end user customers than with Steve Goldsmith at Calumet.

jjlphoto

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« Reply #137 on: March 06, 2009, 01:32:23 pm »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
...Isn't Leaf=Kodak?.....By the way, I think that there was a lot of top of the line work done on Leaf's website http://www.leaf-photography.com/ and the virtual show room of the AFi II with the rotating sensor and movable LCD... is this the work of Lear America or Kodak?...

Kodak just makes the sensors. From what I have read, Kodak leaves Leaf pretty much alone. I  fact, Leaf also uses Dalsa sensors in their backs.
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H1/A75 Guy

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« Reply #138 on: March 06, 2009, 02:33:12 pm »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Isn't Leaf=Kodak? They could -if they want-, keep the Afi pipeline going. But, isn't the design proprietary of Franke & Heidecke? They would have to buy it from them. By the way, I think that there was a lot of top of the line work done on Leaf's website http://www.leaf-photography.com/ and the virtual show room of the AFi II with the rotating sensor and movable LCD... is this the work of Lear America or Kodak?

Leaf America seams to be pushing more in the direction of other than AFi platforms... this is a quote from their site:

[blockquote]With the popularity of the new Mamiya DL-28, many existing owners of mamiya AFD-II and AFD-III camera systems have requested the opportunity to step into digital at a great price, without investing in another camera body. Therefore, for a limited time, Leaf is offering the new Leaf Aptus-II 6 (as featured on the DL-28) at an astoundingly low price.[/blockquote]

If Leaf America is the one in charge of "take over production" of the AFi, should they not promote the system instead of talking about "the popularity of ... Mamiya..."
Ya know, Leanardo,

Just like csp and Snook, you need to listen more and talk less. Your website looks cool, but the stuff that comes out of your mouth here is pure dribble.

Not unlike the dribble with Michael's veiled innuendo that only Phase and Hasselblad will survive in this market.

The medium format community sure as hell better be cheering Leaf on. Hanging a Phase Back on a Mamiya body will always be a medicore solution, at best. And Hasselblad can't even build a camera body that communicates with the battery grip, so what's with that?

The only viable solution is the AFi.

David
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 02:41:45 pm by H1/A75 Guy »
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H1/A75 Guy

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« Reply #139 on: March 06, 2009, 02:37:30 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
If I ran Leaf, I would be a lot more anxious to communicate directly with my potential end user customers than with Steve Goldsmith at Calumet.
Give it a rest, guy,

Leaf communicates with their dealer/distributors and informs them what to communicate with the public (end user). When there is a need to update their website, Leaf will do so.

David
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