Topic: Franke & Heidecke became insovent (Read 179916 times)

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #60 on:** March 03, 2009, 09:37:04 am »

probably the next step for a MF system would be to go in the NO REFLEX BOX concept, but most innovation this days comes from the lower end of the market, and younger brands like Samsung that have no photography history to cling to like Rollei, Leica, and Sinar...

paratom · « **Reply #61 on:** March 03, 2009, 09:57:04 am »

I might repeat myself,for some 28mm on MF might be important (and I can clearly see that for some it is a important focal length in MF), for others a nice WLF or a rotating back, or lenses like the 110mm might be more important.
Each system today has some limits, and some strong sides.
By the way owning both a Hy6 and a D3x I dont feel the D3x can do everything the Hy6+Sinar back can do-of course the d3x also does some things the Hy6 (and every toher MF-system) doesnt.
Personally I really appreciate that we have the option if we want a 645-system with more digital SLR handling or a system capable of 6x6 with a more conventional Handling.
Seeing the Hy6-conceot to be a determing factor for the financial situation of F&H is pure speculation.

The G1 is a nice innovation - my wife uses one because its a nice size camera for a reasonable price. I once put a Leica M lens on it but then asked myself why would I want to use the g1 instead of an M8? Probably one of the best EVF but have you looked through it in dim light?

Guy Mancuso · « **Reply #62 on:** March 03, 2009, 09:57:37 am »

Just to add so no one thinks a 28mm is not used. I own one and use it all the time. Like to see those sales figures on Hassy and Mamiya 28mm. There not as small as some would think and I also saved a lot of money from a tech camera but more important it is a fluid solution within your system. Think how many times you used a 21mm in the 35mm world. I used it a ton. Almost every M8 shooter has a CV 12 or 15 mm in there bag. Almost every Nikon and Canon shooter has a 16-35 zoom in there bag. Sorry this is a very popular focal length and all walks of photography.

uaiomex · « **Reply #63 on:** March 03, 2009, 10:26:17 am »

Shocking, terrible sad news. Every bankruptcy can bring words like these but the real loss for every serious photographer in the world is that the possibility of owning a digital medium format camera with a revolving back and waist level finder has ended. No other offer like this on the entire planet. It's like when convertibles disappeared in the Usa few years ago (only worse). I remember being startled then and I'm again today.
I hope for a miracle. The Hy6/Afi can't disappear. There's nothing like it. It is a product desired and NEEDED.
Eduardo

Kim Bentsen · « **Reply #64 on:** March 03, 2009, 10:28:24 am »

It is in stock here: http://webshop.goecker.dk/

"Varen er på lager" means "in stock"

PHASE ONE P65+ BACK CLASSIC
DKK 225000 (approx USD 38000)

Quote from: michael

I can't speak for other products but I know that the P65+ is now in a backorder situation for months to come because demand has been so high.

Michael

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #65 on:** March 03, 2009, 11:02:21 am »

Not quite true, the Mamiya RZ has revolving back and waist level finder and it is and will be in production.

Quote from: uaiomex

Shocking, terrible sad news. Every bankruptcy can bring words like these but the real loss for every serious photographer in the world is that the possibility of owning a digital medium format camera with a revolving back and waist level finder has ended. No other offer like this on the entire planet. It's like when convertibles disappeared in the Usa few years ago (only worse). I remember being startled then and I'm again today.
I hope for a miracle. The Hy6/Afi can't disappear. There's nothing like it. It is a product desired and NEEDED.
Eduardo

michael · « **Reply #66 on:** March 03, 2009, 12:38:25 pm »

It is in stock here: http://webshop.goecker.dk/

That's good news for someone.

But, just because something is in stock at one dealer in one country doesn't mean that it's not on backorder by other dealers in other countries.

Michael

paratom · « **Reply #67 on:** March 03, 2009, 02:08:14 pm »

Quote from: michael

It is in stock here: http://webshop.goecker.dk/

That's good news for someone.

But, just because something is in stock at one dealer in one country doesn't mean that it's not on backorder by other dealers in other countries.

Michael

I dont think that the situation of F&H means the Hy6-system would dissappear. It could happen in the worst case but there are many other scenarios.

Graham Mitchell · « **Reply #68 on:** March 03, 2009, 03:43:08 pm »

Thanks, EPd, especially for straightening out those who jumped on the Hy6 without knowing the facts and whether it has been commercially successful.

mmurph · « **Reply #69 on:** March 03, 2009, 03:50:37 pm »

Duplicate post ...

mmurph · « **Reply #70 on:** March 03, 2009, 04:00:00 pm »

Quote from: EPd

Filing for bankruptcy can be a way to shake off old debts. That is also why there is so much emphasis on the fact that the latest owner pumped in a lot of money, or the judge might not allow to let the company escape from its debitors.

In the US, there is a filing for liquidation, and a separate filing for reorganization. It is not at all clear what type of filing this is.

With the equivalent of a "nuclear winter" potentially dogging the global economy, many are finding their apetite for risk much reduced. Most who are heavily invested in the markets are down 60% or more. No-one wants to "cash out" at the bottom.

Of course, I am in Michigan, so it feels like the end of the world here. Did you see today's auto sales? Toyota down 40% in Feb, etc.

Very interesting piece on Fresh Air today (03-03-09) with the former economic director for ther IMF. Basically, nationalize the banks soon or face a potential "lost decade" like Japan in the 90's. Also a good piece on "This American Life" Feb 28th.

Quote from: Chris_Brown

Notice the statement, "To put the $26.6 million owed to Nikon Inc. into perspective, it would represent somewhere in the region of 20% of Nikon Inc's expected annual operating income."

Wow, wow, wow! Gov is sure to step in there too to help, like they did today with Toyota.

BJL · « **Reply #71 on:** March 03, 2009, 04:09:21 pm »

Quote from: mmurph

In the US, there is a filing for liquidation, and a separate filing for reorganization. It is not at all clear what type of filing this is.

This is "insolvency" and sounds like more than just protection from creditors for the sake of reorganization ("Chapter 11"), from what it says in the PDF statement. The statement seems to be defending principal shareholder Hans R. Schmid from the complaints or legal actions of other shareholders when they lose a lot of money.

So I think the only question of much interest to this forum is whether someone comes out of the liquidation sale with the assets needed to continue making Hy6 bodies and the lenses for them. I hope so, but have for a long time been convinced that there is not room for three separate MF SLR systems in the digital era and for whatever reasons, Hy6 seems to be in third place. The Contax 645 system was wonderful too, from all reports.

hubell · « **Reply #72 on:** March 03, 2009, 04:17:39 pm »

Quote from: michael

It is in stock here: http://webshop.goecker.dk/

That's good news for someone.

But, just because something is in stock at one dealer in one country doesn't mean that it's not on backorder by other dealers in other countries.

Michael

There may be many reasons for backorders, and strong demand is only one possibility. Another possibility is a very slow ramp-up in production for quality control reasons. Another possibility is that the product is not ready to ship, but there are some orders in the pipeline. The P65 would seem to fall into the latter category as backs with the Sensor Plus technology still are not available for delivery.
Short answer is no one outside Phase really knows the true facts about the extent of the backorder situation, or even if there really is one, and they won't talk hard numbers on or off the record. I personally find it very hard to believe that, with the devastating collapse of the world economy that we are experiencing, large numbers of working photographers are lining up to spend $40,000 to buy into a P65. There are a few things that are recession proof, like non-elective surgery, but not $40k MF digital backs.

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #73 on:** March 03, 2009, 04:45:54 pm »

It is true, the Hy6 is not dead yet, after all Mamiya came back, but the odds are getting a bit harder, for example: they are letting go of assets like Thierry. What message is that giving potential adopters? Even if they continue production, they have to develop new lenses like the 35mm -and the famous 28mm-.

If you check on houses that rent high end equipment in the US you find out that very few have Hy6 systems and even Leaf backs are not the standard work horse. Must of the Hasselblad systems are H2, and the rest is Phase One backs on H2 and Mamiya Bodies.

Probably in the near future rental houses will put up front all the new Nikon Canon twentysomething cameras.

At the end of last year Leaf came up with a "new system" that was basically a Leaf back and a Mamiya body. This system (DL28) is featured prominently at Mamiya's website. Why would they make this promotional effort exactly when they are coming out with their brand new system? Do they know something we don't ?

Quote from: EPd

Heinrich (and all): the situation at F&H is not related to the Hy6. On the contrary: had they not had this camera they would have been in this desperate situation much earlier! "Skeletons in the attick" is a good way of describing what happened. I am going to find out more.

As for the speculation about Jenoptik buying the Hy6: they already own it (and have done so from the beginning as is well documented in this forum). Jenoptik sells cameras to Leaf, not F&H. The big question now is: will anybody be able to manufacture Hy6 and lenses if F&H cannot do so anylonger. I am hoping for a reincarnation of the company, as we have seen many times before. Filing for bankruptcy can be a way to shake off old debts. That is also why there is so much emphasis on the fact that the latest owner pumped in a lot of money, or the judge might not allow to let the company escape from its debitors. We'll need to wait and see how this is all going to evolve.

Only recently F&H had been hiring more people to be able to produce the contractual Hy6 cameras and lenses for Jenoptik. Those who see this insolvency as a chance to hammer on the Hy6 as a failing design are simply ill informed and probably need to get some satisfaction out of their personal negative opinion about the camera.

Guy Mancuso · « **Reply #74 on:** March 03, 2009, 04:55:35 pm »

Quote from: hcubell

There may be many reasons for backorders, and strong demand is only one possibility. Another possibility is a very slow ramp-up in production for quality control reasons. Another possibility is that the product is not ready to ship, but there are some orders in the pipeline. The P65 would seem to fall into the latter category as backs with the Sensor Plus technology still are not available for delivery.
Short answer is no one outside Phase really knows the true facts about the extent of the backorder situation, or even if there really is one, and they won't talk hard numbers on or off the record. I personally find it very hard to believe that, with the devastating collapse of the world economy that we are experiencing, large numbers of working photographers are lining up to spend $40,000 to buy into a P65. There are a few things that are recession proof, like non-elective surgery, but not $40k MF digital backs.

Most are not and many are upgrading from the P45 plus . But yes they are shipping

This is a new sensor do you honestly think this is the only product they are going to use with it.

rainer_v · « **Reply #75 on:** March 03, 2009, 05:29:16 pm »

Quote from: hcubell

I personally find it very hard to believe that, with the devastating collapse of the world economy that we are experiencing, large numbers of working photographers are lining up to spend $40,000 to buy into a P65. There are a few things that are recession proof, like non-elective surgery, but not $40k MF digital backs.

i find this hard to believe too.
maybe there are more working dentists out than photographers .... some big seller of mf systems told me recently that its hard to believe how many amateurs buy the new 50mp hassy, could be similar with the p65.

JDG · « **Reply #76 on:** March 03, 2009, 05:35:27 pm »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto

It is true, the Hy6 is not dead yet, after all Mamiya came back, but the odds are getting a bit harder, for example: they are letting go of assets like Thierry. What message is that giving potential adopters? Even if they continue production, they have to develop new lenses like the 35mm -and the famous 28mm-.

If you check on houses that rent high end equipment in the US you find out that very few have Hy6 systems and even Leaf backs are not the standard work horse. Must of the Hasselblad systems are H2, and the rest is Phase One backs on H2 and Mamiya Bodies.

Probably in the near future rental houses will put up front all the new Nikon Canon twentysomething cameras.

At the end of last year Leaf came up with a "new system" that was basically a Leaf back and a Mamiya body. This system (DL28) is featured prominently at Mamiya's website. Why would they make this promotional effort exactly when they are coming out with their brand new system? Do they know something we don't ?

The DL-28 is a creation of the MAC group. They are the US distributor of both Mamiya and Leaf (as well as Tenba and Sekonic and Profoto). It is a sales bundle and nothing more.

michael · « **Reply #77 on:** March 03, 2009, 07:16:16 pm »

I find the reference to "dentists" offensive. The inference is that these are wealthy individuals who buy expensive toys and who otherwise have no talent or purpose.

My experience as a teacher and as someone that leads field workshops which are often attended by these wealthy individuals is that a great many of them (not all, but most) are very fine photographers. Several regularly sell their work, have gallery shows, and strong reputations.

Having money and, yes, being a dentist, is not mutually exclusive with talent. In fact there are as many wealthy people with 5D MKII's, and D3x's I assure you.

Michael

rethmeier · « **Reply #78 on:** March 03, 2009, 07:26:55 pm »

Michael,
I think Rainers quote should be taken with a grain of salt,however there is a certain truth that a lot of these high end systems are bought by non-pros.

Wether they are good photographers is irrelevant.

For instance I sold my Hy6 kit to a non pro.

Obviously a keen amateur with the cash in hand.

I can tell that right now not many pros are gearing up to more MP cameras.

In your case that you are upgrading is understandable as you have to set the standard and if I was in your shoes,I would have done exactly the same.

Regards,

Willem.

Bill VN · « **Reply #79 on:** March 03, 2009, 07:33:13 pm »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto

I'm thinking to myself "I hope such tests of Mamiya lens inferiority do not exist/materialize". So I should say that probably Rollei/Schneider and all other difficult to spell lens brands are good and some sharper than the Mamiyas (not including the east European probably, but not necessarily) but that is not the point. We are moving in to the future and the ones that survive are not showing scrupulous, for example: Hasselblad. They closed their system and used their 28mm -it shows how important a 28mm is- in order to get some more chips and stay at the table longer. Mamiya went almost dead with their ZD experiment. PhaseOne got in bed with Mamiya and gave its name to off springs that resemble Mamiya 100%...

Probably the next in trouble is SINAR, and Leaf may go down since the two used their turn on a bad hand of cards, they spent money and time on a camera platform when camera platforms where looking for digital backs... How many SINAR backs are going to go of shelves if there is no Hy6? none go to Hasselblad platform since it si closed. So that lives Mamiya. Same with Leaf.

For the rental houses two good brands are all they need, now they have 3 ... who they feel is the less "exiting" system is the key to what happens next...

Leaf is a unit of Kodak, so it isn't going anywhere. A logical buyer of F&H would probably be Jos. Schneider Optische Werke GmbH, since they produce many lenses for the Rollei system and, from many published tests, build the best digital lenses. LINOS, the manufacturer of Rodenstock lenses, might be another possible match.

Author Topic: Franke & Heidecke became insovent (Read 179916 times)