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Author Topic: Franke & Heidecke became insovent  (Read 172907 times)

shutay

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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2009, 01:38:29 am »

It would seem to me that it would come down to Kodak and Jenoptik to keep the Hy6 production going as a shared responsibility between them. I also wonder how 4x5 view camera sales are doing these days?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 01:38:50 am by shutay »
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bdp

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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2009, 01:55:36 am »

Quote
... and this one has got unnoticed so far:

http://photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-bekommt-frisches-Kapital

It seems that the banks are holding back and some new fresh own capital has been injected, instead: Euro 9.5 M

Thierry

Thierry.... do you know something you're not telling us...    Did I see Leica's name mentioned there. Come on... spill it!

Ben
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 01:59:05 am by bdp »
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2009, 01:57:48 am »

This is terrible news...  :-(
 
But maybe if not Jenoptic, then Kodak or even Phase would buy them?    Seems like a fantastic platform with lots of potential still untapped.     Man I hope who ever buys them will come out with a big square back!  


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ThierryH

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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2009, 02:40:40 am »

Dear Ben,

Yes, the Leica name is mentioned in these article and news.

It means, or so I understand it, that Leica has injected fresh money by means of new actions issued.

Capital increase does usually mean what it is meant for.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bdp
Thierry.... do you know something you're not telling us...    Did I see Leica's name mentioned there. Come on... spill it!

Ben
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paratom

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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2009, 03:23:14 am »


As far as I understand the Leica article and also some news I heard in the german radio Leica got this amount of additional capital since they seem to need it. Reasons they named were delayed release of new products (yes- we have been waiting for a R10 for a long time and until summer, when the S2 is avaialble there is kind of a vaccum) and high cost for R&D (I can imagine that the S2 project needs a lot of money).

I dont see the connection with F&H?

I personally strongly believe that the "heart" of F&H and the Hy6-product will survive.
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csp

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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2009, 03:33:07 am »

the hy6 was definitely not a child of love it was a homunculus fixed together from an dead system.  the only reason for its existence was that hasselblad has closed the door. when leaf and sinar
really want  to  keeping  their child alive they would have invested enough to save F&H from bankruptcy but this seems not the case. i guess the truth is that  beside the great interest in this camera on the web nobody wanted to buy it.
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ThierryH

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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2009, 03:36:23 am »

No connection at all, I simply mentioned this in relation to the bad and devastating news hitting the market those last days. It seems that not a single company in this MF market will come out as they were before this crisis.

I guess nobody can be untouched, when names like Rolleiflex, Hy6, Leica, etc ... are having troubles. I am not a fan of Leica, but I respect their name and products.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: paratom
I dont see the connection with F&H?
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paratom

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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2009, 04:06:19 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
The system design is better left for extinction since it does not bring anything to the MF format, it is 6x6, when backs are 6x4.5, not cheaper, or lighter. It has no better lenses, but on the contrary, no options for wide angles, and now its survival --this is if it is not completely dead by now -- is in question.

Would you "save" $30k on a bank that is rumored to go under in the near future?

I think you miss some facts here:
- rotating back/sensor: this is really a joy to use
- option to use a real and nice WLF: not everybody needs this option but some do (incuding myself) - and this is only possible with 6x6 (except you only shoot landscape)
- sensors do become larger and if we say there is no 6x6 sensor today-this is today. It might be different tomorrow.
- the SCA system of the Hy6 does work with Metz flash (compared to some other cameras)
- limited wide angles yes, but then there are some very nice lenses like the 110/2.0 for example.
-and then there is the user interface: For sure a question of taste but at least it is a different approach- which -after some days of using it- I really like
-feel-factor: For me the Hy6 is the only actual camera which gives me the "feel" factor of a classical MF camera, again, for sure a very subjective factor

There might be some arguments against the Hy6 (like someone who wants/needs 28mm), but there are some arguments for the Hy6 system which are not offered by any other system today. I would rather make my decision based on the product.

If you personally see a camera as a capital investemnt and make the decision for a camera based on your business-expectations regarding the manufacturer is another question.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 04:46:26 am by paratom »
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Smallcooter

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« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2009, 04:15:09 am »

Quote from: paratom
I think you miss some facts here:
- rotating back/sensor: this is really a joy to use: and this is only possible with 6x6 imagecircle
- option to use a real and nice WLF: not everybody needs this option but some do (incuding myself) - and this is only possible with 6x6 (except you only shoot landscape)
- sensors do become larger and if we say there is no 6x6 sensor today-this is today. It might be different tomorrow.
- the SCA system of the Hy6 does work with Metz flash (compared to some other cameras)
- limited wide angles yes, but then there are some very nice lenses like the 110/2.0 for example.
-and then there is the user interface: For sure a question of taste but at least it is a different approach- which -after some days of using it- I really like
-feel-factor: For me the Hy6 is the only actual camera which gives me the "feel" factor of a classical MF camera, again, for sure a very subjective factor

There might be some arguments against the Hy6 (like someone who wants/needs 28mm), but there are some arguments for the Hy6 system which are not offered by any other system today. I would rather make my decision based on the product.

If you personally see a camera as a capital investemnt and make the decision for a camera based on your business-expectations regarding the manufacturer is another question.

Nicely said; paratom, do you own the Hy6 system?
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paratom

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« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2009, 04:47:20 am »

Quote from: Smallcooter
Nicely said; paratom, do you own the Hy6 system?
How did you know that I like the system?  
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Carl Glover

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« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2009, 06:24:32 am »

I own the system - to me, it feels like a souped-up, lighter, smaller 6008AF designed around digital backs - I love the 1000th second flash sync!

It's the best medium format camera I've ever used with some of the best lenses on the planet. I can't imagine using anything else...

heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2009, 06:43:00 am »

Will be interesting what EpD got to say about this F&H mess, he seemed to have lot of insight.

Where are you?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 06:43:44 am by heinrichvoelkel »
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Khun_K

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« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2009, 06:58:02 am »

Quote from: Carl Glover
I own the system - to me, it feels like a souped-up, lighter, smaller 6008AF designed around digital backs - I love the 1000th second flash sync!

It's the best medium format camera I've ever used with some of the best lenses on the planet. I can't imagine using anything else...
I agree, the Hy6 is indeed a real pleasure to work and friendly to experienced and inexperienced users. Very sad indeed, but perhaps it is not the end yet?  Probably it depends on ho long this recession will last.
On the other hand, I do not think the lack of interest of Hy6 is the much discussed 28mm, it is not an everyday lens, perhaps for really working landscape professionals, but these days one can easily get by stitched captures. For interior and architecture, I suppose they don't use Hy6 as their main platform anyway. I think the short fall of Hy6 is the short zooms that photographer needs for 80-90% of their photographic works, something between 45-100mm AF zoom. I think every camera system needs to cover basic before covering specific.
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Khun_K

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« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2009, 07:09:47 am »

Quote from: Carl Glover
I own the system - to me, it feels like a souped-up, lighter, smaller 6008AF designed around digital backs - I love the 1000th second flash sync!

It's the best medium format camera I've ever used with some of the best lenses on the planet. I can't imagine using anything else...
I agree, the Hy6 is indeed a real pleasure to work and friendly to experienced and inexperienced users. Very sad indeed, but perhaps it is not the end yet?  Probably it depends on ho long this recession will last.
On the other hand, I do not think the lack of interest of Hy6 is the much discussed 28mm, it is not an everyday lens, perhaps for really working landscape professionals, but these days one can easily get by stitched captures. For interior and architecture, I suppose they don't use Hy6 as their main platform anyway. I think the short fall of Hy6 is the short zooms that photographer needs for 80-90% of their photographic works, something between 45-100mm AF zoom. I think every camera system needs to cover basic before covering specific.
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vydalex

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« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2009, 07:24:07 am »

Unfortunately, it's only the beginning.

Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, PhaseOne, Mamiya... Discussion with them at the Photokina in October, they all say (said as an aside)  that in the MF market, there is place for only two....

alex
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2009, 07:40:54 am »

Quote from: Khun_K
I do not think the lack of interest of Hy6 is the much discussed 28mm, it is not an everyday lens, perhaps for really working landscape professionals, but these days one can easily get by stitched captures.

This is a flaw in logic thinking and to demonstrate it we can use the analogy of an automobile. You use your car mostly in the forward gear, and just some times you engage the R for going in reverse. Would you buy a car that did not include a R gear? or that would come with R gear if you upgrade from 6 cylinder to a yet-to-be announced V8 model? -after you sell your 6 cylinder car and get the new of course--

If all available systems have wide angle capabilities and one has not, and is the new comer, in a matured segment at the end of the transition from film to digital, just before an economic global crash ... then this system is an endangered evolutionary branch. If high end users will consider investing their more and more scarce resources in this system they will have to go beyond the nice looks and adjustable hand grip and consider how long will the system be able to compete under this circumstances. Is the system going to live your business (because a pro photographer is a business entrepreneur too) stranded with a fleet of obsolete lenses and digital backs? What is a "crazy" client wants you to shoot a wide view? can you tell them that you spent $60k and that you cannot even rent a moderate wide angle. What if the crazy client knows that there is a young guy with a 24mp Nikon that can do what you do in 50% of the budget? Would you continue to find the Hy6 as your best professional choice?

I don't have a 28mm, (I do have a 35mm that got 2nd hand and use all the time) but I know that if and whenever I need one I can just go out and rent it, that is the big difference.

I also want to say that Thierry and everybody that promoted this system made a fantastically good job and that I wish that the designers had given them a better concept of a system... I used SINAR view cameras and think that they are the perfect balance of design and construction, so it is nothing personal, just humble observations of a not so young photographer...
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Khun_K

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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2009, 07:52:49 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
This is a flaw in logic thinking and to demonstrate it we can use the analogy of an automobile. You use your car mostly in the forward gear, and just some times you engage the R for going in reverse. Would you buy a car that did not include a R gear? or that would come with R gear if you upgrade from 6 cylinder to a yet-to-be announced V8 model? -after you sell your 6 cylinder car and get the new of course--

If all available systems have wide angle capabilities and one has not, and is the new comer, in a matured segment at the end of the transition from film to digital, just before an economic global crash ... then this system is an endangered evolutionary branch. If high end users will consider investing their more and more scarce resources in this system they will have to go beyond the nice looks and adjustable hand grip and consider how long will the system be able to compete under this circumstances. Is the system going to live your business (because a pro photographer is a business entrepreneur too) stranded with a fleet of obsolete lenses and digital backs? What is a "crazy" client wants you to shoot a wide view? can you tell them that you spent $60k and that you cannot even rent a moderate wide angle. What if the crazy client knows that there is a young guy with a 24mp Nikon that can do what you do in 50% of the budget? Would you continue to find the Hy6 as your best professional choice?

I don't have a 28mm, (I do have a 35mm that got 2nd hand and use all the time) but I know that if and whenever I need one I can just go out and rent it, that is the big difference.

I also want to say that Thierry and everybody that promoted this system made a fantastically good job and that I wish that the designers had given them a better concept of a system... I used SINAR view cameras and think that they are the perfect balance of design and construction, so it is nothing personal, just humble observations of a not so young photographer...
Sorry, not wanting to argue, but the gear in a car is a liability feature, not the case with the camera. Anyway, I don't disagree a wide angle lens is important, but there are a lot of everyday photographer don't need such wide angle, but yes, there are also many do. But base on my perspective, a short zoom in the lens range for now is more important. I also use H3D39 and also have the 28mm, judge on how often I use the HC 50-110 and HCD 28, I would say if I were to limited have only one lens, I will go for the 50-110. Perhaps other photographer will do otherwise.
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Smallcooter

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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2009, 08:17:35 am »

Quote from: paratom
How did you know that I like the system?  

So, you like the system but you don't actually own it, I assume?
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ThierryH

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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2009, 08:38:22 am »

Smallcooter,

He does:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....32433&st=20

Post 32

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Smallcooter
So, you like the system but you don't actually own it, I assume?
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Chris_Brown

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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2009, 09:34:28 am »

And at the other end of the spectrum, Ritz Camera is filing for bankruptcy. Although Ritz is not a reseller of MF gear (they target the average amateur photographer/consumer), I think it's alarming that their two largest creditors are Nikon and Canon, to whom they owe a combined total of $40 million.

Notice the statement, "To put the $26.6 million owed to Nikon Inc. into perspective, it would represent somewhere in the region of 20% of Nikon Inc's expected annual operating income."  
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