Leica's new MF system

[Terence h]

$24000 is that the price of the new Leica S2 ?and those lenses are going to cost an absolute fortune, now we are not even close to talking.
In fact if i am realistic my Nikon d80 has earned me more money than my Leaf Aptus (hey that is probably my fault ) i am much more likely to be lining up for a higher res Nikon or canon 5d mk2.

Terence

[Terence h]

Sorry did not mean to include my web page link ,do not even bother looking at it i have not updated it in about 5 months.

Terence

[cyberean]

That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS

APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS

These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.

Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH

APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5

Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH

Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift

Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.

they may very well be "perfect" ...
but that'll probably mean they'll be lacking in personality/character.

... of course some photographic applications require just that.

[Christopher]

they may very well be "perfect" ...
but that'll probably mean they'll be lacking in personality/character.

... of course some photographic applications require just that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)

[cyberean]

There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)

sounds, to me, like an applications mismatch.  

[eronald]

The presented S2 design has less area than current digital MF - which is
actually cropped 645 -  so why pay all that money, when you don't even
get the MF "look".

This compromise design seems a joke. By 2009 when it ships,  I bet
Sinar will be announcing a 6x6 Hy6, and those Schneider lenses are ok
too.

Then, by end 2009 I'd say we'll also have a 28 MP Canon with  existing-
F:1.2 and F1.4  lenses, existing Zeiss wides,  and full HD *raw* video
like Red.

At the moment I finally have my Phase back producing images that look
ok. Even though find I have to use Photoshop CS4 to develop them -  we
all have to make compromises  And I finally have my junk Epson 9600
cleaned up and churning out the BIG prints. So I'm gonna produce
images for now, and leave the fantasizing about gear for when the inspiration
runs out.

BTW, I find that Adobe CS4 does a really nice job for pushing clarity and vibrance on landscape images. The new ACR is a definite keeper. I've been using it for several months now. Also, about 10MP out of the 39 from the Phase back upsize really well to a full width Epson 9600 44" print. In the end what I find interesting about the MF format is the degree to which the files can be pushed around and cropped. They're like rubber bands.


Edmund

[mcfoto]

more photos of the S2

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20171/leica-s2/

[Graham Mitchell]

Now nobody knows what the Leica will be like, but do you really think that since it has a ccd it's going  to have a clean iso above 400?
...
 the Leaf and the new sinar look interesting, but they also will probably not go to 800 iso real clean since they are ccd's

You seem to have something against CCDs. In case this hasn't been shown to you before, Thierry already posted an iso 800 sample from the e75 which is very nice indeed. I can't imagine you need cleaner than that. See http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683 (Haven't I shown this to you before?)

I think I'd rather have a couple of 5d 2's

Btw, did you know the 5D2 has a flash sync of only 1/200?

[Graham Mitchell]

There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.

[David Anderson]

There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200  L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..

[BrianSmith]

Hasselblad.  They have the most seasoned platform and a full range of lenses ready to buy, no waiting.  The file format thing makes no sense to me and software that takes a computer upgrade or a new video card also seems like a slight hurdle, but at least the blad is ready to buy and the prices seem pretty good.  It's a shame it's not black and it looks like an American Motors Pacer.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

EXECELLENT!!! A car that looks as good as a Pacer...



Call it the "[a href=\"http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/16/pf/autos/pacer_auction/]Mirth Camera[/url]"!!!

Party on Wayne!

- Garth Algar

[BrianSmith]

I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200  L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Other than the the 35/1.4, Canon's wide angle lenses would only seem sharp to...

[Graham Mitchell]

I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200  L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd love to see samples of these wide open, and in the corners. I don't doubt that they all perform stopped down but Leica tends to outperform Canon lenses wide open. I've seen samples from the 85, for example, which were not impressive.

[phila]

My point is it's not like Canon to just totally obsolete their flagship camera overnight, especially one that has been on the market such a short time.

Maybe a 36x36 square sensor that goes to multiple formats, from 4:5 to 16:9, including video.

Still all of this is conjecture and means very little until all of these cameras get into real world use.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

All very true.

It all depends on just how willing Canon is to either:

a. Develop an entirely new range of lenses for a larger (36x36? Why not bigger?) sensor - a goodly proportion of the existing EF lenses have rectangular light cutters built in to eliminate flare, meaning they couldn't be used (at full size anyway) on any sensor bigger than 24x36.

b. Develop MkIII versions of existing EF designs to cope with the 50MP 24x36(?) sensors they have been rumoured to be working on.

Canon has proven to be by far the most forward looking of all the manufacturers, as evidenced by your earlier reference to the size of the EF mount. They took an incredible amount of flak back in the late '80s- over 20 years ago! - when they completely broke with the FD mount (something many older Canon aficionados still haven't forgiven them for) and introduced the first completely electronic mount in the EOS/EF. And increased the diameter substantially (for faster lenses, eg. the 50f1.0L, and better AF, were the reasons given back then) at the same time. But no one could argue now that they made the wrong decision!

Interesting times indeed...

[BernardLanguillier]

There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223546\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Considering the price of the lenses, this still leaves a huge opportunity wide open for companies like Canon and Nikon that belong to the cheap currency world...

The strong Euro is IMHO going to hit this camera really really bad.

Frankly speaking, who is going to invest in a new Leica system at this price point?

- Retrofit backs with larger sensors like the P45 are cheaper and are a lot more flexible since they can be used. You can also have a like new H3D39II at the same price today on ebay,
- Current DSLR are not that far in absolute performance at 1/8 th the price,
- Nikon is rumoured to enter the very same market and will for sure never sell a body above 10.000 US$. I would expect a Nikon entry to be in a different league in terms of usability, even if lenses might be a tad behind...

Anyway I look at it, Leica must be targetting the wealthy amateur market with the S2, and don't see why a working pro would invest in one.

Cheers,
Bernard

[narikin]

nice to see this camera, but its not that revolutionary. just a dslr on steroids.

would have been much more exciting to see one with no mirror box - a straight through lens>sensor path and a pro quality live view digital VF instead.

that way you can get over the hump between 'standard' and 'wide' lenses without that huge gap between primes (note the 70mm standard, next one down is... 35mm - nothing in the 45/50/55mm prime range.)

Leica don't have the depth of digital tech/engineering know how to jump forward to pro live view finder in slr's, that will come from Japan, and when it does, expect a truly new design of pro camera finally be here.

[paulmoorestudio]

I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price)  doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?

I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.

What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

and what if canon makes it in a leica S mount?  that would keep the S bodies on the shelf..

 I feel that leica has got to keep the price within the desired market.. even if it is a loss leader..this is their couturé line..in the fashion bus. designers know they never hit a profit margin on it.. it is the second lines that they make the bucks on. Leica will never be able to compete dollar for dollar with canon, nor can canon compete overall quality-wise with leica.

 Leica is going for the niche high-end pro-market..maybe the top 10%.. but only the top 1%, if that, make the money to go out and buy into a new system just like that.. and this 1% are for the most part are not stupid in the business dept. and buy equipment that works for them on all levels, not because it is the latest, most fab, got-to-have fashion statement..it is a tool of the trade and how it performs or doesn't is critical to our success in the market.

The camera could work for me.. but it has to work financially..and that is the big unknown at the moment.. if I was shooting national ads everyday of the week, every week, then I would just say sign me up, I don't care if it is 15, 20 or 30g..but this isn't the 90's is it?
 If it is the best camera in the market it should and will be the most expensive..but by how much..that will determine if this new bit of kit is just eye candy or is something more than a handful of us can work with.

I hope the latter.. cause it would would look great with my Helmet Lang black leather jacket!

[markowich]

nice to see this camera, but its not that revolutionary. just a dslr on steroids.

would have been much more exciting to see one with no mirror box - a straight through lens>sensor path and a pro quality live view digital VF instead.

that way you can get over the hump between 'standard' and 'wide' lenses without that huge gap between primes (note the 70mm standard, next one down is... 35mm - nothing in the 45/50/55mm prime range.)

Leica don't have the depth of digital tech/engineering know how to jump forward to pro live view finder in slr's, that will come from Japan, and when it does, expect a truly new design of pro camera finally be here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223560\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i couldn't agree more. what we have seen from leica is an old concept somewhat revamped. kodak sensor+fujitsu electronics+bronica (rumor) lenses+ german panzer (leica) design + phase one software (the best part). no definite specs, zero vision, big price tag (announced before the specs, funny, isn't it?). the real big thing will hopefully come soon, from nikon (or canon, whoever comes first, fine with me).
peter

[BrianSmith]

There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223546\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course the way the dollar is going, by the time Leica gets around to rolling this out, €15K is going to be about $50,000...

I better see if my loan from AIG came through.

[Raphael]

Of course the way the dollar is going, by the time Leica gets around to rolling this out, €15K is going to be about $50,000...

I better see if my loan from AIG came through.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223564\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i like the AIG part