Leica's new MF system

[gwhitf]

3 Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm betting that the Leica mentality was about MTF Charts, and Sharpness -- not about actually having to shoot a job as the sun is setting, but the client is yelling for one more setup before you stop for the day.

It must be much easier to make a jawdroppingly sharp lens if the fstop is slower -- thus, we get the slower lenses.

[Graham Mitchell]

Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

These lenses DO have leaf shutters, the ones with CS in the name anyway. So you can't really compare with Mamiya.

From previous page:

* Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
* APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
* Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
* APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
* Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
* Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
* Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

[Graham Mitchell]

It must be much easier to make a jawdroppingly sharp lens if the fstop is slower -- thus, we get the slower lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They better be fantastic wide open.

[SeanBK]

Hi,

I think that Leica competes not with Canon but with Hasselblad and Mamya/Phase One on this one. ........ Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!

Best regards
Erik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Will this make a CLOSED SYSTEM??? But I guess since it is Phase One back, so all those PHASE PHANS/clients who bitched moaned endlessly for Hasselblad H3 system, don't recognize the trend.

[free1000]

Take a look at Capture Integration's front page.  We will be updating our site as the information flows in from Photokina.

http://www.captureintegration.com/

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National  Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell 
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223651\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Chris... what is that fuzzed out lens on the Phase 1 Mamiya.... ?



The new packaging for the 45mm T/S is very smart. Hopefully it will make the aperture selection a bit easier than with the old one. Now if the glass is as cleaned up as the casing that would be something... I reserve my judgement

[BJL]

Oh yea, it's ccd and since I've owned 10 professional ccd cameras and not seen one go past 400 iso clean I have to assume this will be the same as the others.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Leica has talked about better high ISO performance than other MF backs, so this Kodak FF CCD sensor might well have micro-lenses (like the Kodak 33x44mm, unlike most other MF sensors). Those are good for about one stop of speed, so if the new 6 micron Kodak pixels are good to about ISO 800 w/o micro-lenses, this one might be good to ISO 1600. [Edit: of course your standard of "clean" is probably far more demanding than mine!]

That would still be no threat to Canon or Nikon in the high shutter speed/low light stakes, but good relative to its natural competition: bodies and lenses designed for 56x42m or 49x37mm format but used with 44x33mm sensors.

Also, I believe that a major noise source in FF CCD's is in the high speed transfer of the unamplified signal along the edge of the sensor. Active pixel sensors (CMOS or MOS) more or less eliminate this as a significant noise source by amplifying the signal before this transfer. One way that FF CCD's can reduce noise significantly is by lowering the frequency needed in this transfer, by some combination of (1) having more parallel output channels and (2) lower frame rates. The latest Kodak 50MP sensor for Hasselblad lowers noise by having more parallel output channels; with "only" 37.5MP to read-out, maybe the Leica S2 can do even better, by reading at a 25% lower frequency for the same frame rate.

[eronald]

I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become.  Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past. 

Did someone from Profoto and Broncolor tell the world of medium format that everyone shoots studio strobe, so forget about continuous light and short depth of field. 
 

JR

Now the second announcement I would like to see is profoto brings back their hmi lighting.  Those things are the bomb and allow you to shoot continuous and flash with the same style modifiers.

Of course to use the hmi's you need higher iso.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Haha.

 I used to shoot my Canon 85/1.2 with just the modeling light of my Elinchrom Octabank.

 The reason why the MF guys have these slow lenses is the same as why the kit zooms n the consumer bodies are slow: It masks  AF failures , and especially the bad body/back fits.


Edmund

[bcooter]

I believe this was shot with the russian tilt shift.

Chris... what is that fuzzed out lens on the Phase 1 Mamiya.... ?




[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[EricWHiss]

Leica has talked about better high ISO performance than other MF backs, so this Kodak FF CCD sensor might well have micro-lenses (like the Kodak 33x44mm, unlike most other MF sensors).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good ISO performance is something I'd like to have in my next camera or back.  Was looking but I hadn't seen anything where Leica talks about better ISO performance so would like to know where you saw that.

 I can confirm that the sensor used has microlenses.  It is the KAF-37500 which shares the their Truesense technology with the H50 sensor.   The H50 basic ISO rating goes 50-400 (with somekind of software bumped iso 800)  so probably the S2 with microlenses is going to get a usable iso 800 and a dirty 1600?

[lance_schad]

Looks like the 75-150 D lens.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think that Photo was just trying to focus on the vertical grip. It was a snapshot that was sent to us.

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]

[Snook]

I agree with Rogan.  Let's don't put rich cats in suits telling us they "talked" to professional photographers so they could make the best camera in the world".  Put these things in the hands of people that shoot for a living and let them knock the paint off of em.  Then they'll know what is really needed.

That is something that Nikon and Canon are very good at.  They put their early pre production cameras out there in working situations, way before they ever go on sale.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James are you trying to get them to send you a free one again...:+}

I do  agree with you though.

Snook

[TechTalk]

According to Capture Integration...

"Phase One & Leica Form Strategic Alliance
The just-announced medium-format Leica S2 will feature sensor, software, and firmware developed by the experienced engineers of Phase One and will be distributed exclusively through Phase One channels."
http://www.captureintegration.com/

According to David Farkas (who attended the Leica VIP launch event of the S2)...

"So what’s the deal with Phase One? The truth is that I’m not sure, right now (and neither is Leica or Phase). The S2 was developed 100% in-house. Leica is very proud of this. The hardware engineering to the optics to the firmware was all done in Germany. With the Phase deal, the S2 will shoot tethered into C1, which is nice, but they certainly didn’t create this product – Leica did. There was mention of Phase dealers carrying the camera, in addition to Leica dealers, but this is not certain right now. Time will tell.."   http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

And the real story? As Mr. Farkas says, time will tell. As a side note, just because two companies have a "strategic alliance" does not mean that one company is developing the other's products. Phase One has a strategic alliance with Microsoft, but I don't believe that Microsoft's experienced engineers are producing major portions of Capture One software or that Phase One is a lead developer of Vista.

You can sort out the "truth" among the active posters here. I'm overloaded with other obligations.

[BrianSmith]

Will this make a CLOSED SYSTEM??? But I guess since it is Phase One back, so all those PHASE PHANS/clients who bitched moaned endlessly for Hasselblad H3 system, don't recognize the trend.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dude, it's not closed system - it's a camera.

It doesn't use a PhaseOne back or any other - it's a camera.

[ynp]

According to Capture Integration...

"Phase One & Leica Form Strategic Alliance
The just-announced medium-format Leica S2 will feature sensor, software, and firmware developed by the experienced engineers of Phase One and will be distributed exclusively through Phase One channels."
http://www.captureintegration.com/

According to David Farkas (who attended the Leica VIP launch event of the S2)...

"So whats the deal with Phase One? The truth is that Im not sure, right now (and neither is Leica or Phase). The S2 was developed 100% in-house. Leica is very proud of this. The hardware engineering to the optics to the firmware was all done in Germany. With the Phase deal, the S2 will shoot tethered into C1, which is nice, but they certainly didnt create this product  Leica did. There was mention of Phase dealers carrying the camera, in addition to Leica dealers, but this is not certain right now. Time will tell.."   http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

And the real story? As Mr. Farkas says, time will tell. As a side note, just because two companies have a "strategic alliance" does not mean that one company is developing the other's products. Phase One has a strategic alliance with Microsoft, but I don't believe that Microsoft's experienced engineers are producing major portions of Capture One software or that Phase One is a lead developer of Vista.

You can sort out the "truth" among the active posters here. I'm overloaded with other obligations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223689\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And what was the meaning of the Leica-Jenoptik relationship?
Yevgeny

[Graham Mitchell]

And what was the meaning of the Leica-Jenoptik relationship?
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was wondering the same. That was announced 3 months ago, iirc.

[ynp]

". And it sure looks that they have done so for this S2. So now the owner of the Hy6 and the owner of the missing back for that camera are both the supporting pillars of the company trying to make the product competing with MF systems. I cannot get my brain wrapped around it, yet.

The Jenoptik/Leica support-deal was announced last summer:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-und...tik-kooperieren
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Sinar 65 and the new Leica are the only MF systems with DNG +Jpeg recording, Phase one does not offer dual recording in their newest backs. Does it mean that Leica has an imaging  unit developed by Jenoptik?
Yevgeny

[Gigi]

As to these relationships -

Consider the possibility that Leica is working with Jenoptik for the internals (makes sense - lots of experience there) and with Phase C1 for the reading of the file - which was nicely done with the M8 for color quality.

Why not?

Geoff

[Nemo]

That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS

APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS

These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.

Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH

APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5

Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH

Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift

Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.
I would love to see the price list!

Cheers,
Willem.
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Erwin Puts has some comments about the new lenses:

[a href=\"http://www.imx.nl/photo/Analysis/page119/page119.html]http://www.imx.nl/photo/Analysis/page119/page119.html[/url]

The camera body, interesting as this is, does not show truly remarkable features. The lenses on the other hand are very innovative. The high speed of 2.5 is a direct poke in the eye of the classical Hasselblad lens system that starts at 2.8. The medium format lenses are generally weak in the close range performance and the contrast at finer detail definition. The new Leica CS lens line offers excellent image quality at close range and have very high MTF values at 60 lp/mm, sometimes even better than what you get with the current M-lenses. When you combine the lens quality with the sensor size and pixel count, you may expect superior performance.

.

[BrianSmith]

[snickgrr]

Leica also needs to get their stuff back in the rental houses.  I tried to rent something in the spring and could not find one place in the US that still carried it.  Even contacted LeicaUS to see if they knew of a place.
Nada.