Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Nemo on August 06, 2008, 04:26:57 pm
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You know, Leica's owner, Dr. Kaufmann, pointed to a new digital reflex system using a 35mm "or bigger" sensor.
I am thinking on a sensor with a size in between the 35mm format and the 645 format, maybe a bit smaller than 36x48mm. The Hasselblad and Mamiya systems are 645 systems, even if they use cropped sensors. The advantage of a smaller MF system is obvious: smaller bodies and lenses, and lenses with higher speed (think on f/2 or even more). The price can be placed also in between.
The presentation will be at the Photokina, but I suppose at this moment many distributors know the basic specifications (and price) of the new system.
What do you think about this (hypothetic for now) new system? Would you be interested in it?
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Probably not as Leica has put out nothing but sub-par cameras of late.
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What do you think about this (hypothetic for now) new system? Would you be interested in it?
I think Leica has promised much and delivered little. But I guess we'll see soon enough.
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You know, Leica's owner, Dr. Kaufmann, pointed to a new digital reflex system using a 35mm "or bigger" sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213483\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I do not know that. I have read Kaufmann talking of a sensor bigger than those of the R digital back or M8, which are about 18x27mm. Can you point to anywhere that Kaufmann talks about bigger than 35mm format, and thus losing backward compatibility with many or all exiting Leica R lenses?
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Well, Kaufmann pointed to bigger than 35mm format in a meeting:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicaref...7/msg00101.html (http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/10-2007/msg00101.html)
http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicaref...7/msg00146.html (http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/10-2007/msg00146.html)
Kaufmann is careful in not mentioing the R system anymore... he speaks of "reflex":
http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotography...e-of-leica.html (http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotographyfeatures/5316/the-future-of-leica.html)
.
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A Leica MF system is almost definitely on the horizon, but specifics will have to wait for an official announcement.
Apparently there are still many details to be resolved, so don't believe much of what you read, other than the fact that something is cooking.
Michael
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I hope it will not be "too late, too little"...
All players are moving fast...
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I'm hoping that whatever it is they announce, it will take my R glass. Maybe there will be a R10 and a MF camera or is that too much to ask?
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I hope it will not be "too late, too little"...
All players are moving fast...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213519\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Define "fast"
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super exciting, are you breaking your own rule on speculation there Michael? Hard to resist this one though isn't it.
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Kaufmann is careful in not mentioing the R system anymore... he speaks of "reflex":
http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotography...e-of-leica.html (http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotographyfeatures/5316/the-future-of-leica.html)
Kaufmann mentions an R&D staff of 90, very surprising, maybe that figure includes Jenoptik collaboration?
Also makes me wonder how many employees at F&H and Sinar by comparison.
Fanning the flames: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...html#post555744 (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/53182-some-news-rumor-about-r10.html#post555744)
Edit: Added Leica User Forum link
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Speculating? I don't think so.
Michael must know somthing we still don't know. As usual.
Eduardo
super exciting, are you breaking your own rule on speculation there Michael? Hard to resist this one though isn't it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213524\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Probably not as Leica has put out nothing but sub-par cameras of late.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know of any sub-par cameras they have put out lately? At least any more so than any other manufacturer. I have an M8 which has been a superb camera for almost 2 years. It did have to go back to the factory for a recall but the compensation I was given made it worth while. I also have a dlux3 which for a pocket camera is great. I haven't heard that Canon is going to do anything for me for either my 1DMKIII or 1DSMKIII for the supposed focus problems. Have you got a Leica to base this on or are you one of the many who just "knows" there are problems.
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Leica has no other choice than this new MF system.
Current 35mm reflex systems are very versatile. You must to offer many lenses, from extreme wide-angles to superteles, macro, tilt and shift lenses, portrait lenses, zooms... etc... The costs of manufacture and distribution of such a system are very high. You need a large stock of all your lenses and accesories all over the world, in the hands of many retailers. On the other hand, Leica cannot compete against Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc in terms of image quality on the same format. They cannot. The digital photography is determined by the lens, but also by the sensor, the processor, the software... Leica cannot be competitive in terms of price either, due to economies of scale. So, how can they survive in the 35mm market in the long term? It is impossible.
They need new customers, and a different product. A few lenses for specific (professional) tasks (landscape and studio work), a small camera (much smaller than 645 and 6x6 based systems) with great image quality (better than 35mm at low ISOs). This product will be competitive against 35mm (for particular types of work, due to image quality), and competitive against 645 format (much smaller body and lenses, less expensive).
I don't know if this strategy will be a success, but it is the only product concept with some possibility of success in the long term for Leica.
I don't know about the compatibility of actual R lenses, but the mount-to-sensor distance of medium format cameras is much larger than that of 35mm cameras. The R system is 47mm, and medium format is around double of that number. If Leica does without the mirror box (like the micro 4/3 system), they could keep the register of the R system untouched.
All MF systems are based on 645 (Hasselblad, Mamiya) or even 6x6 format (Rollei/Sinar). Hassel will go full 645 next year. Meanwhile, they have 36x48mm. The same goes for Mamiya/Phase One, but they hit first: full 645 sensors, for 645 lenses. This equipment is really big.
The Mamiya ZD was a good try, but it is a 645 camera with a cropped sensor (even then, it was similar in body size to a 1Ds Canon). The new Leica will be even smaller. A good example (and unique) of "optimized for smaller than 645" is the Hasselblad HCD 28mm. From this only case it is difficult to get an idea of what can be done for something like 36x48, or a bit smaller format.
The cost of the new Leica MF system cannot be the same of Hasselblad or Mamiya's, or Leica will have problems.
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What do you think about this (hypothetic for now) new system? Would you be interested in it?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=213483\")
[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26607]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26607[/url]
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http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26607 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26607)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you bcooter. Very interesting.
I read "full frame 645", but it is a wish of current owners of 645 equipment... I suppose...
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Thank you bcooter. Very interesting.
I read "full frame 645", but it is a wish of current owners of 645 equipment... I suppose...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213545\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you are welcome Nemo
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We're already suffering from the ridiculous prices of REAL MF digital equipment.
Think of what a larger-than 35mm sensor Leica system would cost. The price would be inflated just because of the freaking LEICA name alone. Reminds me of another brand... cough, Sinar, cough. (To Thierry, it's just a joke. )
Would it really be worth it over a used Leaf Aptus 75, Sinar Emotion, or P45, especially with prices dropping on these "older" backs, because of the new products coming out?
Think of how cheap a Mamiya and some used lenses cost compared to Leica R glass. Ugh. Yes, I do have some Leica glass that I use on Canon, and I don't think they're that special to be honest. Been there, done that, so don't try to convince me that Leica is the holy grail.
The most important thing would be the sensor. What's so special about it? Who makes it? AA filter? No AA filter? We'll have to find out.
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I want to get what I pay for. The quality is not 'up to par' for the price paid and hasn't been for several years now.
Leica people are so touchy.
I do not own a digital Leica.
I don't know of any sub-par cameras they have put out lately? At least any more so than any other manufacturer. I have an M8 which has been a superb camera for almost 2 years. It did have to go back to the factory for a recall but the compensation I was given made it worth while. I also have a dlux3 which for a pocket camera is great. I haven't heard that Canon is going to do anything for me for either my 1DMKIII or 1DSMKIII for the supposed focus problems. Have you got a Leica to base this on or are you one of the many who just "knows" there are problems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I want to get what I pay for. The quality is not 'up to par' for the price paid and hasn't been for several years now.
Leica people are so touchy.
I do not own a digital Leica.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=213587\")
The Leica is good man. It aint' a 1ds3, or a p anything, but it's good and worth the money.
It's the only 35 without a aa filter.
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/final_leica.jpg]http://www.russellrutherford.com/final_leica.jpg[/url]
http://www.russellrutherford.com/1T/image/paris2bhv3449.jpg (http://www.russellrutherford.com/1T/image/paris2bhv3449.jpg)
JR
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New Leica MF for photogrammetry:
http://www.leica-geosystems.com/corporate/...f/lgs_70929.htm (http://www.leica-geosystems.com/corporate/en/ndef/lgs_70929.htm)
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I think it's a terribly unfair to state that the MF prices are ridiculous. Of course 30.000 euros or even dollars is a lot of money but this is money invested into ones company and career. And who says you have to buy top of the line.
All the digital MF systems are highly specialized professional tools and cost money to make and design. If one factors in the cost involved with film then the digital back prices are quite reasonable for professional photographer even in small markets like Finland where the photography day rates are less what a digital tech makes in New York. Besides it's just amazing what kind of images they deliver.
My 2 cents
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The Leica is good man. It aint' a 1ds3, or a p anything, but it's good and worth the money.
It's the only 35 without a aa filter.
http://www.russellrutherford.com/final_leica.jpg (http://www.russellrutherford.com/final_leica.jpg)
http://www.russellrutherford.com/1T/image/paris2bhv3449.jpg (http://www.russellrutherford.com/1T/image/paris2bhv3449.jpg)
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
God, dare I ask James, how do you like the 1ds 3 compared to the 1ds 2?
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God, dare I ask James, how do you like the 1ds 3 compared to the 1ds 2?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I bought one 1ds3 and tested it, sold the 1ds2s and will buy another 1ds3.
Everything from the 1ds2 that was ploblematic has been addressed on the 3.
JR
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I bought one 1ds3 and tested it, sold the 1ds2s and will buy another 1ds3.
Everything from the 1ds2 that was ploblematic has been addressed on the 3.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213634\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Cool, how about image quality, any change?
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I do have an M8 and have had zero problems. I know all the R fans are looking for something new and better in the pipeline. Personally, I would like to see a larger sensor that uses M glass. Or perhaps uses both M and R glass? Wouldn't that be great?
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Cool, how about image quality, any change?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213640\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Higher iso is slightly better, file depth is slightly better, file size is much better, tethering is much better, lcd much better, menus 1 million times better, focus is better, more solid feel etc.
You can set in camera parameters even black and white. The black and white function is very cool.
Tethering, even usb is much improved. The Canon software is somewhat disjointed, but will do about everything that any software does, it just takes a new learning curve.
the preview time is fast. I saw reports where everybody said it was about 7 seconds for a raw file to preview but I see it in less than 1/2 of that in OSX.
The one standout is the viewfinder. For once manual focus is actually easy on this camera.
I put the 4:3 mask in and the viewfinder is still big.
File look is different than my phase backs, probably because of the AA filter. It starts out softer, though sharpens ok, though it's just different. Not bad different, just different.
It may be my imagination, but the camera seems just slightly smaller than the 1ds2 or slightly more compact. Other than the Leica, I'm not that wild about small cameras.
Given all of this it is the very well built camera and in a lot of ways reminds me of that robust feel of the contax, where it's solid and rattle free.
Regardless, if I could have a p back, especially the p21 that went to 800 iso clean, I would have gone that direction.
The Canons are interesting in that some people love them, some are the opposite, but nobody can dismiss how much of an impact they have on professional photography.
I wouldn't say it produces the best file in the world, (that's very subjective), but it is a very versitile camera.
JR
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New Leica MF for photogrammetry:
http://www.leica-geosystems.com/corporate/...f/lgs_70929.htm (http://www.leica-geosystems.com/corporate/en/ndef/lgs_70929.htm)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213599\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are Leica-geosystems and Leica camera part of the same corporation?
Steve
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Higher iso is slightly better, file depth is slightly better, file size is much better, tethering is much better, lcd much better, menus 1 million times better, focus is better, more solid feel etc.
You can set in camera parameters even black and white. The black and white function is very cool.
Tethering, even usb is much improved. The Canon software is somewhat disjointed, but will do about everything that any software does, it just takes a new learning curve.
the preview time is fast. I saw reports where everybody said it was about 7 seconds for a raw file to preview but I see it in less than 1/2 of that in OSX.
The one standout is the viewfinder. For once manual focus is actually easy on this camera.
I put the 4:3 mask in and the viewfinder is still big.
File look is different than my phase backs, probably because of the AA filter. It starts out softer, though sharpens ok, though it's just different. Not bad different, just different.
It may be my imagination, but the camera seems just slightly smaller than the 1ds2 or slightly more compact. Other than the Leica, I'm not that wild about small cameras.
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Given all of this it is the very well built camera and in a lot of ways reminds me of that robust feel of the contax, where it's solid and rattle free.
Regardless, if I could have a p back, especially the p21 that went to 800 iso clean, I would have gone that direction.
The Canons are interesting in that some people love them, some are the opposite, but nobody can dismiss how much of an impact they have on professional photography.
I wouldn't say it produces the best file in the world, (that's very subjective), but it is a very versitile camera.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sounds nice. I wish I didn't prefer the look of the P21 files to the canons as it would make my life a lot more pleasant as they are lovely things.
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Tethering, even usb is much improved. The Canon software is somewhat disjointed, but will do about everything that any software does, it just takes a new learning curve.
the preview time is fast. I saw reports where everybody said it was about 7 seconds for a raw file to preview but I see it in less than 1/2 of that in OSX.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you use Boot Camp on a Mac and install Windows XP, Canon Software and MacDrive 7, tethering RAW files screams in speed, and image files go into a folder on the Mac side. This because USB in Windows is so much faster at the moment.
I resisted, being a Mac guy, but it's not hard to install, and easy to run.
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Are Leica-geosystems and Leica camera part of the same corporation?
Steve
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, they aren't.
Leitz Corporation was separated in three different companies years ago: Leica Microsystems (actual owner of the brand "Leica"); Leica Geosystems; and Leica Camera.
Leica Geosystems belongs to a big multinational company.
Leica Microsystems is in Wetzlar, the original town of the Leitz company. Leica Camera is in Solms, at just 7 kilometers from Wetzlar. There are plans for building a gigant industrial park in Wetzlar for Leica Camera and other associated companies, so Leica Camera and Leica Microsystems will be again in the same town (although they are different companies).
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I will wait till Photokina 2008 to see how accurate the web-forum sources are, but I suppose there is a market there worth pursuing: a system based around a format between 36x24 and 56x42, including lenses lens mount, viewfinders and metering systems all designed for that format could
- offer an alternative in the huge price gap between 36x24 and anything close to full 56x42
- work better than 44x33 or 48x36 backs used with lenses and lens mounts designed for 56x42 or 56x56
- avoid head-on competition with the strengths of Canon and Nikon.
Maybe an SLR-style body (a smaller Pentax 67) with a 44x33mm Kodak sensor with the new 6 micron cell size and micro-lenses for better low light performance. That would have 7333x5500 pixels (40MP), enough for most MF users in this forum it seems. Or maybe start out using the current 31MP 44x33 Kodak sensor with microlenses; that could be cheaper as an older, "amortized" product and still meet the often stated 30MP requirement.
There would I suppose course be a futile debate as to whether this is Full Frame in a new format, less than Full Frame by comparison to 645 systems, or more than Full Frame by comparison to 35mm systems. But it would be hard to call it a "crop format system" while calling 36x24 systems Full Frame!
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I put the 4:3 mask in and the viewfinder is still big.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I didn't know these existed. Canon-branded or third party? Or DIY?
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I have not used these, but I think this is what James was referring to:
For the 5D: Canon Crop Focus Screens (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/402217-REG/Canon_0056T098_Ee_Crop_Lines_Focusing.html/BI/2280/KBID/3041)
For the 1D: Canon Crop Focus Screens (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/402213-REG/Canon_0055T168_EC_1D_Crop_Lines_Focusing.html/BI/2280/KBID/3041)
For the 1Ds: Canon Crop Focus Screens (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/402206-REG/Canon_0055T166_EC_1Ds_Crop_Lines_Focusing.html/BI/2280/KBID/3041)
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I've just seen it: Leica hooked up with Yashica, bringing the contax back to life. All those nice and fast lenses ( a new 100 1.8 will be available next week) and they will also have leaf shutter lenses (a 50, a 80, a 100 and a 150) ready for delivery at the kina. I like their two new backs as well, the little one with 22mp and a 48x36 chip and the big full frame 645 one with 35 mp, nice as they go to 1600 and 800 asa, quite clean with very little, filmgrain like noise. Believe it or not, they just ripped out IPod touch screens and build them into their backs, awesome, just like Mr. Russel suggested! They easily connect via fw400 to your mac (sorry, macs only) and you can either shoot dng with a little tool to lightroom or aperture, or just use capture one as they also teamed up with phase again. You can either transfer both the raw and the jpg via cable when tethered or just transfer jpgs or raws and write the other one to the cf card. You can even use icc profiles in your back to apply your look to the jpgs and previews of the raws. When shoting to card only, you better say cards, as the back has two cf slots, nikon style. Of course the backs have changeable mounts, so no problem hookin em up to your rz, hasselblad 500 (for the v series and the rz, the adapter also can be rotated), h1 and h2, mamiya 645 and even bronica and rolleis but leica also decided not to support closed systems, what a pitty for all h3 and afi/hy6 users...
just when that leica guy wanted to tell me about the low price, i woke up...
cheers,
martin
ps: sorry no wireless jpgs yet, as leica is quite a green company they don't want to be part of microwaving the world.
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edit- sorry, forgot how to read....
I've just seen it: Leica hooked up with Yashica, bringing the contax back to life. All those nice and fast lenses ( a new 100 1.8 will be available next week) and they will also have leaf shutter lenses (a 50, a 80, a 100 and a 150) ready for delivery at the kina. I like their two new backs as well, the little one with 22mp and a 48x36 chip and the big full frame 645 one with 35 mp, nice as they go to 1600 and 800 asa, quite clean with very little, filmgrain like noise. Believe it or not, they just ripped out IPod touch screens and build them into their backs, awesome, just like Mr. Russel suggested! They easily connect via fw400 to your mac (sorry, macs only) and you can either shoot dng with a little tool to lightroom or aperture, or just use capture one as they also teamed up with phase again. You can either transfer both the raw and the jpg via cable when tethered or just transfer jpgs or raws and write the other one to the cf card. You can even use icc profiles in your back to apply your look to the jpgs and previews of the raws. When shoting to card only, you better say cards, as the back has two cf slots, nikon style. Of course the backs have changeable mounts, so no problem hookin em up to your rz, hasselblad 500 (for the v series and the rz, the adapter also can be rotated), h1 and h2, mamiya 645 and even bronica and rolleis but leica also decided not to support closed systems, what a pitty for all h3 and afi/hy6 users...
just when that leica guy wanted to tell me about the low price, i woke up...
cheers,
martin
ps: sorry no wireless jpgs yet, as leica is quite a green company they don't want to be part of microwaving the world.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213996\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I will wait till Photokina 2008 to see how accurate the web-forum sources are, but I suppose there is a market there worth pursuing: a system based around a format between 36x24 and 56x42, including lenses lens mount, viewfinders and metering systems all designed for that format could
- offer an alternative in the huge price gap between 36x24 and anything close to full 56x42
- work better than 44x33 or 48x36 backs used with lenses and lens mounts designed for 56x42 or 56x56
- avoid head-on competition with the strengths of Canon and Nikon.
Maybe an SLR-style body (a smaller Pentax 67) with a 44x33mm Kodak sensor with the new 6 micron cell size and micro-lenses for better low light performance. That would have 7333x5500 pixels (40MP), enough for most MF users in this forum it seems. Or maybe start out using the current 31MP 44x33 Kodak sensor with microlenses; that could be cheaper as an older, "amortized" product and still meet the often stated 30MP requirement.
There would I suppose course be a futile debate as to whether this is Full Frame in a new format, less than Full Frame by comparison to 645 systems, or more than Full Frame by comparison to 35mm systems. But it would be hard to call it a "crop format system" while calling 36x24 systems Full Frame!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213923\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with you, and I also think it will be a new format similar to 36x48 (maybe a bit smaller). Smaller bodies, faster lenses... Hasselblad and Mamiya are hooked to 645 format, for which their systems are designed (including lenses), and the Hy6 to the 6x6 format. Smaller sensors are cropped sensors.
Leica has an opportunity to offer something different. The price is the key variable.
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http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=28828904 (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=28828904)
....Last week, a Pro photographer friend told me of a medium format Leica camera he'd been shown - one bearing a striking similarity to the discontinued Contax 645. Could it be that Leica are going into Medium Format? And if so, might they resurrect the Contax 645?.....
Would be GREAT if if were to happen....
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Stranger things have happened, more power to leica if they pull it off.
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I bought one 1ds3 and tested it, sold the 1ds2s and will buy another 1ds3.
Everything from the 1ds2 that was ploblematic has been addressed on the 3.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213634\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not quite, James. I did some of my own testing too. The static focus wasn't as good as it should be - RG agrees with me. Skin tone issues of the 1Ds2 have been addressed but not quite fixed.
On the other hand, the 1Ds3 is spectacularly lighter than the 2, color is better, batteries last forever, and the finder is heavenly.
Edmund
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Not quite, James. I did some of my own testing too. The static focus wasn't as good as it should be - RG agrees with me. Skin tone issues of the 1Ds2 have been addressed but not quite fixed.
On the other hand, the 1Ds3 is spectacularly lighter than the 2, color is better, batteries last forever, and the finder is heavenly.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund and James,
As an owner of a 1DSMKII I am interested in the differences and whether they are worth it. At first sight, the image quality does't seem to be much better really, but image quality being pretty similar, I am interested in the tethering, weight and other things that would really warrant buying the MKIII.
What do you mean by the viewfinder being better, is the image on the viewfinder more magnified, brighter, or what? Are we taking about minute differences or substantial differences that make you want to upgrade?
I am happy with the 1DSMKII image quality, I like all, apart from the stupid and flimsy firewire port and the unreliable auto focus, that I no longer use anyway, I finder manual focus faster and practically fail proof, a better viewfinder would be a bonus, so could you explain please.
Edward
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Edmund and James,
As an owner of a 1DSMKII I am interested in the differences and whether they are worth it. At first sight, the image quality does't seem to be much better really, but image quality being pretty similar, I am interested in the tethering, weight and other things that would really warrant buying the MKIII.
What do you mean by the viewfinder being better, is the image on the viewfinder more magnified, brighter, or what? Are we taking about minute differences or substantial differences that make you want to upgrade?
I am happy with the 1DSMKII image quality, I like all, apart from the stupid and flimsy firewire port and the unreliable auto focus, that I no longer use anyway, I finder manual focus faster and practically fail proof, a better viewfinder would be a bonus, so could you explain please.
Edward
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the mk3 is way better than the mk2. the file is larger, but the biggest difference for me is that it handles highlights a lot better. i shoot a lot of shots with blown out BGs, and the mk2 was always a headache. my p25 was heaps better at pulling detail and having good graduations , the mk3 seem to do just as good of a job. its not just me, my retouchers lave been very impressed.
i have an h1 and the mk3, and the viewfinder is pretty much the same size when you look through.
paul
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Edmund and James,
What do you mean by the viewfinder being better, is the image on the viewfinder more magnified, brighter, or what? Are we taking about minute differences or substantial differences that make you want to upgrade?
I am happy with the 1DSMKII image quality, I like all, apart from the stupid and flimsy firewire port and the unreliable auto focus, that I no longer use anyway, I finder manual focus faster and practically fail proof, a better viewfinder would be a bonus, so could you explain please.
Edward
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The viewfinder is a MAJOR upgrade, in my opinion. Enough to warrant buying this model.
Edmund
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Agreed -- the viewfinder is much larger and brighter than the II, and is about the same size as the viewfinder of my H2 with the mask for the P30. Very impressive.
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Thank you guys. It looks like I'm going to have to go take a look at the MKIII.
It's sounds like it's the number of little details that have been improved that makes it an altogether nicer camera to work with.
I may wait for Photokina though, just in case...
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I am believing :
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=28902798 (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=28902798)
Edit: corrected link
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I am believing :
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=28902798 (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=28902798)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214145\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
believing in ?
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What do you mean by the viewfinder being better, is the image on the viewfinder more magnified, brighter, or what? Are we taking about minute differences or substantial differences that make you want to upgrade?
Yes brighter, yes more magnified.
But that's not all.
It's crisper, the viewfinder image is more detailed (try it through an angle finder with x1.25 and you'll see the difference immediately), and there's virtually no distortion. I used to regard the viewfinder image of a Hasselblad V system with an Acu-matte screen as the gold standard for SLR viewfinders, but the 1Ds MkIII gives it a run for its money.
So is it perfect?
Not quite. The eye relief for spectacle wearers is good but not great, you still have to spend a moment precisely positioning your eye to see all four corners, the viewfinder data IMO isn't quite as clearly displayed as by Nikon, and the dioptre control isn't as good as it could be in terms of range of dioptres and ease of adjustment.
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, and the dioptre control isn't as good as it could be in terms of range of dioptres and ease of adjustment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214219\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with this. I have my 1ds3 diopter set all the way to one side, to the extreme. I shoot with glasses on. I always wonder, "could it even get sharper/better if it had a greater range of settings?"
I just finished a long five-day job with two 1ds3 bodies, and they were bulletproof. Tethered; untethered; sunlight; long exposures; ASA 100-1600; it just keeps rocking along with pretty much anything you ask of it.
The slickest thing is the "My Settings" menu, where you can register up to five or six of your most-used settings, like FORMAT, and WB, and where/how it writes to card, or whatever you use, and you can just go to that menu to find and use your most-used items, insteading of searching searching searching thru the millions of menu to find the FORMAT command for each and every card. It's a very well thought out camera.
Would I love an external viewing device, or a larger LCD? Absolutely, I'd pay a lot of money for that.
One other irritating thing is the way it does the LCD and the tagging when you have a custom 4x5 focusing screen installed. You install the screen, and then you go into the Menu and tell it that you have the 4x5 screen installed. After that, on the LCD it shows you a tiny blue keyline that indicates the 4x5 crop, instead of just blacking out the image area outside the 4x5 area. If I've got 4x5 installed, I don't even want to SEE what I'm cropping out -- all that does is add doubt and confusion to the equation. As a result, I took black duct tape and covered the ends of the horizontal frame that were getting cropped, but then, the duct tape now covers the text in the Menus, which make the menus unreadable. This should be addressed in the new camera hopefully.
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I agree with this. I have my 1ds3 diopter set all the way to one side, to the extreme. I shoot with glasses on. I always wonder, "could it even get sharper/better if it had a greater range of settings?"
I just finished a long five-day job with two 1ds3 bodies, and they were bulletproof. Tethered; untethered; sunlight; long exposures; ASA 100-1600; it just keeps rocking along with pretty much anything you ask of it.
The slickest thing is the "My Settings" menu, where you can register up to five or six of your most-used settings, like FORMAT, and WB, and where/how it writes to card, or whatever you use, and you can just go to that menu to find and use your most-used items, insteading of searching searching searching thru the millions of menu to find the FORMAT command for each and every card. It's a very well thought out camera.
Would I love an external viewing device, or a larger LCD? Absolutely, I'd pay a lot of money for that.
One other irritating thing is the way it does the LCD and the tagging when you have a custom 4x5 focusing screen installed. You install the screen, and then you go into the Menu and tell it that you have the 4x5 screen installed. After that, on the LCD it shows you a tiny blue keyline that indicates the 4x5 crop, instead of just blacking out the image area outside the 4x5 area. If I've got 4x5 installed, I don't even want to SEE what I'm cropping out -- all that does is add doubt and confusion to the equation. As a result, I took black duct tape and covered the ends of the horizontal frame that were getting cropped, but then, the duct tape now covers the text in the Menus, which make the menus unreadable. This should be addressed in the new camera hopefully.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214221\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with most of this. I also have the 4x5 screen and the viewfinder is large enough to still make the viewing area useable, even generous, which it wasn't in the mark II.
Actually it's somewhat amazing considering how small the ground glass is (or is that ground plastic?).
The blue line thing doesn't bother me to much, though I also would love it to black out the image on the lcd.
If there is one semi annoying thing about the Canons, compared to my contax is the way the image looks in the viewfinder doesn't match how it looks in the final capture.
If your shooting fairly wide open, the viewfinder image will give the impression that your pulling much more focus depth than you will see on the file. You get use to it and start working by the numbers, though it's not exact.
I'll open up to like 1.8 and think well that's kind of pretty because it has a medium amount of depth of field, but then when you look at the lcd there is a lot of falloff and depending on what your after it can be even nicer or a problem.
Where as with the Contax what you see in regards to focus falloff is pretty much what you get, though the prism on the Contax gives a much smaller view than the 3.
The 3 does seem like a better built camera than the 2, almost like it's carved from on piece of metal, though that could also be just because it's newer than my 2's.
This week I start on an intense project so I'll see how well everything works,.
On the external viewing device, I'm surprised Canon doesn't offer one. They do have an Epson like viewer where you download cards, but if they just took that one step further and made it wi-fi or even tethered usb it would really be worth the price, almost any price.
JR
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believing in ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214157\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
At this point everyone has heard the rumors of the bigger than 35mm Leica. I hope it happens but it seems making a digital camera is quite an undertaking and it's rare that one comes out of the box without issue.
Actually, it's even more rare if a digital specialty camera comes out on time.
If Leica does come out with this camera and it's intent is a professional tool, rather than a rich person's toy, it must come out ready to roll, with a complete lens line and it must be available in professional rental houses.
I rarely rent cameras, actually almost never, but there is a level of comfort knowing you can either buy or rent a backup or added camera almost anywhere, vs. having to wait.
Lecia also needs to improve their quality control. On my M-8 I've returned 3 lenses for focus issues, some so crazy off that even the dealer couldn't argue and this specific Leica dealer on Broadway will argue about anything. Going in with an issue is like that Monty Python scene of the dead parrot.
"He's not dead he's sleeping."
JR
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While we're on the subject of "things we'd like to see", some kind of split screen arrangement in live view would be very useful for use with the T&S lenses.
The normal procedure when using tilt is to focus in the centre and then adjust tilt to pull the top and bottom of the image into focus. But if the magnified screen on live view could be adjusted to show a magnified section from both the top and bottom of the frame at the same time, then that would allow much more precise use of the tilt setting.
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While we're on the subject of "things we'd like to see", some kind of split screen arrangement in live view would be very useful for use with the T&S lenses.
The normal procedure when using tilt is to focus in the centre and then adjust tilt to pull the top and bottom of the image into focus. But if the magnified screen on live view could be adjusted to show a magnified section from both the top and bottom of the frame at the same time, then that would allow much more precise use of the tilt setting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, Gary. For those of us using 5x4 view cameras, it is a pain to shift from one end of the zoomed in Live View to the other to achieve the desired plane of focus. Two windows or similar would help. However, I think there are other more pressing priorities really.
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If there is one semi annoying thing about the Canons, compared to my contax is the way the image looks in the viewfinder doesn't match how it looks in the final capture.
If your shooting fairly wide open, the viewfinder image will give the impression that your pulling much more focus depth than you will see on the file. You get use to it and start working by the numbers, though it's not exact.
I don't have the 1DsIII, but that's very true with other Canon models. The viewfinder shows depth of field that constantly approximates f/2.5 or f/2.8, even when you're using an f/1.2 lens. You can test this by using the manual depth of field preview button and gradually stopping down from f/1.2. There's no change in the apparent depth of field in the viewfinder until you stop down to about f/2.8 or smaller.
Canon offers an optional focusing screen that will show the depth of field at f/1.2, 1.4, etc. (what you see is what you get), but it's so much darker than the standard focusing screen that it's not worth using, in my opinion (unless you always shoot in bright conditions). The standard focusing screen represents a trade-off: you gain more brightness in the viewfinder but lose viewing of wide-open-aperture depth of field.
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I agree with most of this. I also have the 4x5 screen and the viewfinder is large enough to still make the viewing area useable, even generous, which it wasn't in the mark II.
Actually it's somewhat amazing considering how small the ground glass is (or is that ground plastic?).
The blue line thing doesn't bother me to much, though I also would love it to black out the image on the lcd.
If there is one semi annoying thing about the Canons, compared to my contax is the way the image looks in the viewfinder doesn't match how it looks in the final capture.
If your shooting fairly wide open, the viewfinder image will give the impression that your pulling much more focus depth than you will see on the file. You get use to it and start working by the numbers, though it's not exact.
I'll open up to like 1.8 and think well that's kind of pretty because it has a medium amount of depth of field, but then when you look at the lcd there is a lot of falloff and depending on what your after it can be even nicer or a problem.
Where as with the Contax what you see in regards to focus falloff is pretty much what you get, though the prism on the Contax gives a much smaller view than the 3.
The 3 does seem like a better built camera than the 2, almost like it's carved from on piece of metal, though that could also be just because it's newer than my 2's.
This week I start on an intense project so I'll see how well everything works,.
On the external viewing device, I'm surprised Canon doesn't offer one. They do have an Epson like viewer where you download cards, but if they just took that one step further and made it wi-fi or even tethered usb it would really be worth the price, almost any price.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214222\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I fully agree with you... Lets see what is presented in september...
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You can test this by using the manual depth of field preview button and gradually stopping down from f/1.2. There's no change in the apparent depth of field in the viewfinder until you stop down to about f/2.8 or smaller.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214290\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have seen this effect all the way back to the 1ds1. You can test it easily by doing the old Ruler Test. Put camera on tripod, shoot a frame, and compare then what you see in the viewfinder versus what you see in the file. There is a vast difference, especially more toward wide open.
This is yet another reason to have a huge, tight, trustable LCD; otherwise you're forced to shoot tethered to see what you're really getting in the final file.
I'm not complaining; I'm just acknowledging that this depth of field difference can really bite you in the behind if you're not careful. It can happen in either direction -- either you're wanting to carry focus, or you're trying to throw something OUT of focus.
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If you need a viewfinder mask, go the cheap traditional way: buy a standard screen and paint a mirrorimage on it with a thin pencil. used to do that with my mamiya, works like a charm with any camera that has a removable focus screen like the 1dsmk3.
i even let my AD draw a sketch of his very complicated layout, printed it out miror imaged in 24x36mm size and traced it onto a screen. the C1pro overlay function is of course nicer, but one can't always be tethered.
i don't really get why the canon crop screens are so expensive.
stefan
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http://gizmodo.com/5027706/rumor-macbook-t...ming-in-october (http://gizmodo.com/5027706/rumor-macbook-touch-coming-in-october)
Imagine the 1ds3 being able to WIFI a JPG to this thing, and just slip it in the camera bag for the AD to hold.
And to the poster above, CaptureOne does not allow the 1ds3 to tether. (Wonder why? Feeling the heat?)
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Canon offers an optional focusing screen that will show the depth of field at f/1.2, 1.4, etc. (what you see is what you get), but it's so much darker than the standard focusing screen that it's not worth using, in my opinion (unless you always shoot in bright conditions).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214290\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I took the Canon ee-s screen for my 5D and had it brightened by Bill Maxwell; Maxwell Precision Optics; P.O. Box 33146; Decatur, GA 30033-0146; ph (404) 244-0095. It shows focus fall off much more accurately than the standard 5D screen, and it is as birght as the standard 5D screen. Exposure is also identical to the original screen; it doesn't throw it off.
Maxwell has been making focusing screens for cameras for a LONG time. I learned of him when I had him make custom focusing fresnels for my view camera.
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Thank you guys. It looks like I'm going to have to go take a look at the MKIII.
It's sounds like it's the number of little details that have been improved that makes it an altogether nicer camera to work with.
I may wait for Photokina though, just in case...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just spent two intense days with two more to come shooting the 1ds3.
Normally I would shoot it with my Phase backs and the Contax.
For this job I really needed 640 to 800 clean iso and it was the only way to get there.
Upside; The Canon is nicely built the viewfinder is much better with manual focus easier, the file is good and as Paul said holds the highlights well. The batteries last a billion frames. Skin tones are perfect.
Medium upside; The Canon software tethers ok, (all of today was tethered), the lcd lights up when you work tethered, you can name and rename in the Canon software and the preview initially comes up quick sending small jpeg and raw about 2 seconds before it's full screen.
Downside; The Canon software tethered in this way gets bogged down and firing about 10 shoots semi quickly I hit the buffer and the previews load slow. Compared to tethering with my Phase backs and C-1, this is almost glacier like slow.
The lcd, though miles more detailed than medium format is still contrasty and gets nowhere close to the color in the computer. The file is nice but the lcd (at least mine is off color going to the very cool). Shadows load up darker than on the computer and highlights are readable but somewhat difficult to judge.
The software is just goofy. We've learned it front to back but it's still a two piece system that makes even c-1 3.78 look like a genuis tethering system.
The files are sharp but at first startle me because it's not medium format crisp sharp, it's Canon somewhat milky sharp. (They do sharpen in post, but not like the medium format files).
The 4:3 crop works but it is somewhat disjointed. It shows in DPP and in the camera and on the lcd with those blue lines, but in any other program it becomes a 2:3 cameras.
Honestly, it's a very nice camera, but I would love to have shot this with my backs and the Contax.
I love working with the Contax and love the sharpness of the files, the easy tethering, the way to set sessions. It is so logical compared to the windows like Canon software that you always have to go back and forth on.
At this point i don't care if medium format ever fixes their lcd because I doubt if that's going to happen. The medium format preview is small, so even if the lcd is twice size or twice improved the preview will still be rough.
Since I shoot 95% of most commercial work tethered, the lcd is just a reference anway.
The ONE thing I need is higher, clean iso. The difference between a Canon at 640 iso, F 4.5 and 125th of a second and the Phase at 400 iso, F4.5 (or 5.6 if I want to hold the same depth of field) is about two stops in the Canons favor.
The iso thing really needs some attention and if/when/how that's possible I don't know, but today if the Phase had gone to 800 iso clean, the Canons would have stayed in the bags.
JR
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i dont see the comparison to the MF viewfinder, it's a LOT bigger and brighter than the mk3 - it's great but not MF IMO...my H3 blows it away from renting it a few times w/ the H3 on hand...
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The files are sharp but at first startle me because it's not medium format crisp sharp, it's Canon somewhat milky sharp. (They do sharpen in post, but not like the medium format files).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's funny you say that, I was testing my new rebel Xsi (I usually shoot the P21) and was a little startled about the sharpness, I thought I'd got a duffer until I went back to some 5d files and realized that thats just the canon thing. Like you say though, they do sharpen up quite well, especially in DPP.
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I took the Canon ee-s screen for my 5D and had it brightened by Bill Maxwell; Maxwell Precision Optics; P.O. Box 33146; Decatur, GA 30033-0146; ph (404) 244-0095. It shows focus fall off much more accurately than the standard 5D screen, and it is as birght as the standard 5D screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214407\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
what's the equivalent of the ee-s screen for 1Ds II / III series?
seems hard to get details out of canons useless website on what the dift model screens are/ do...
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Upside; The Canon is nicely built the viewfinder is much better with manual focus easier, the file is good and as Paul said holds the highlights well. The batteries last a billion frames. Skin tones are perfect.
Mr. Russell,
Yes, it's important to nail down which focusing screen is right for your style of shooting -- either the 4x5 blacked-out crop screen, or that EES (?) low-light screen, or even getting the Maxwell guy to whip you one up.
Batteries are nothing short of amazing; they last forever.
Skin tones are good, once you get your Preferences and PictureStyle set up, after testing.
Medium upside; The Canon software tethers ok, (all of today was tethered), the lcd lights up when you work tethered, you can name and rename in the Canon software and the preview initially comes up quick sending small jpeg and raw about 2 seconds before it's full screen.
Nice that the LCD of the 1ds3 stays lit up when tethering, versus the 1ds2 which went black when tethering.
Once you do the Rube Goldberg Non-Firewire Workaround (see below), the 1ds3 preview comes in in about a second or so, on a 17" Macbook Pro, on location. But you still have to manually download the RAWs, since you're only tethering a Small JPG.
1. Put a CF card in Slot 1.
2. Put an SD card in Slot 2.
3. Set the camera to "record separately".
4. Set the camera to "Playback only Slot 2".
5. Set the Slot 1, the CF slot, to record RAW.
6. Set the Slot 2, the SC card, to record JPG SMALL.
7. Open EOS Utility, and link it to DPP.
8. Hook up the USB cable to the Mac.
Downside; The Canon software tethered in this way gets bogged down and firing about 10 shoots semi quickly I hit the buffer and the previews load slow. Compared to tethering with my Phase backs and C-1, this is almost glacier like slow.
There is nothing like a Phase back and CaptureOne 3.78, for tethering. It is the Gold Standard. Everything else is a pale imitation. But you knew that already.
I shot a small job recently, though, where I didn't try to "link" DPP to EOS Utility. It was much simpler this way. You get a refreshed Preview Window each time you shoot a frame, although weirdly, that Preview window is always in vertical orientation, even if you're shoot a horizontal job. But the upside is, you're only dealing with EOS Utility, instead of trying to "link" to another application, and rub your head and pat your belly at the same time. (Canon should be shot for their sorry software approach to tethering).
The files are sharp but at first startle me because it's not medium format crisp sharp, it's Canon somewhat milky sharp. (They do sharpen in post, but not like the medium format files).
I set up my PictureStyle as Standard (or Neutral), with a 3 tag for Sharpness. DPP sees that tag upon import. I doubt any other software would see these tags, which is why I stick with DPP for everything. As for sharpness, you're dealing with CCD (Phase) versus CMOS (with aggressive AA filter to boot). But tag with 3 Sharpness, run it in DPP, and it's pretty nice.
The 4:3 crop works but it is somewhat disjointed. It shows in DPP and in the camera and on the lcd with those blue lines, but in any other program it becomes a 2:3 cameras.
Like I've said before in another thread, the StupidBlueLine that Canon uses is very irritating, compared to Nikon blacking out the extra frame area. When I bought the cropping screen, that was me saying "crop it"; it was not me saying "put a blue line around it, but show me the rest of the frame anyway, just to piss me off". And yes, I doubt that any other application would recognize the StupidBlueLine tag.
The ONE thing I need is higher, clean iso. The difference between a Canon at 640 iso, F 4.5 and 125th of a second and the Phase at 400 iso, F4.5 (or 5.6 if I want to hold the same depth of field) is about two stops in the Canons favor.
I shot a job last week at 800 and 1600 with the 1ds3. Very clean. Shockingly clean. You simply can't do that with a P30+.
At some point, you gotta choose. None are perfect. Would I love a P21+ back duct-taped onto the back of a 1ds3 body? Absolutely, but it's not gonna happen.
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I shot a job last week at 800 and 1600 with the 1ds3. Very clean. Shockingly clean. You simply can't do that with a P30+.
At some point, you gotta choose. None are perfect. Would I love a P21+ back duct-taped onto the back of a 1ds3 body? Absolutely, but it's not gonna happen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm shooting this week in Miami and the weather is challanged. From bright sunlight to black rain clouds.
Using HMI, some flouescent fill and even strobe the iso thing is a must, in fact a deal breaker when it comes to medium format and the thing is, the files from the 1ds3 are excellent.
The color response is wonderful and easy, the skin tones near perfect.
The tethering thing is a pain in the arse, but the client doesn't notice, in fact the client doesn't know I'm NOT shooting medium format.
They just know if they like the images and the previews are big and the previews are very big and fill the screen.
They know the skin tones are golden brown, the files are smooth, the detail is there.
The upside of using DPP and the EOS utlility is it rotates the files and yesterday I went from horizontal to vertical all day long.
The other upside is the Canon is stupid good at 800 iso and stupid easy to use. It just runs and runs. I shot 16 set ups yesterday and with a lower ISO camera we would still be working.
The other upside is at 8 grand, the Canon is cheap. (I can't believe I just said an $8,000 camera is cheap) but in todays' medium format world $8,000 is like a downpayment on anything else that comes close.
JR
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If I ever get a snooty A.D., I just slap on that giant Lee Bellows Shade onto the front of the 85 1.2. And I made a sticker for the Lee Shade, and on the front of it, it says "Phase One". (The back-up Shade has a Leaf logo on it, in honor of Mr. Yair).
Tear off a strip of black duct tape, slap it over the Canon logo, and instantly, you've saved yourself $30k, and when the AD looks over, he knows he's shooting medium format. Rez up the files in DPP, and everyone's a Happy Camper.
Problem solved. Perception is greater than Reality.
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I'm shooting this week in Miami and the weather is challanged. From bright sunlight to black rain clouds.
Using HMI, some flouescent fill and even strobe the iso thing is a must, in fact a deal breaker when it comes to medium format and the thing is, the files from the 1ds3 are excellent.
The color response is wonderful and easy, the skin tones near perfect.
The tethering thing is a pain in the arse, but the client doesn't notice, in fact the client doesn't know I'm NOT shooting medium format.
They just know if they like the images and the previews are big and the previews are very big and fill the screen.
They know the skin tones are golden brown, the files are smooth, the detail is there.
The upside of using DPP and the EOS utlility is it rotates the files and yesterday I went from horizontal to vertical all day long.
The other upside is the Canon is stupid good at 800 iso and stupid easy to use. It just runs and runs. I shot 16 set ups yesterday and with a lower ISO camera we would still be working.
The other upside is at 8 grand, the Canon is cheap. (I can't believe I just said an $8,000 camera is cheap) but in todays' medium format world $8,000 is like a downpayment on anything else that comes close.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214741\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
james that sounds like a pretty strong endorsement....
i am shooting a ton of things with my m8s now....great skintones, fast shooting, easy to focus (if you know RF), crisp, snappy files and simply amazing b&w....really almost a MF file if it wasn't for the 10mpix (which become 8mpix because of format and funky finder lines)....but they do uprezz really well....
tried the 3D but that just did not do it for me at all....
looked at the 1dsmk3 files but they just looked to be larger and just as "mushy" as all other canon files....milky sharp is a better way of saying it....
i guess i will have to look at it a little closer....it is frustrating that there is not a camera out there that gives me the file size combined with the speed and flexibility that makes shooting fun....
we all know that a P30 or even P21 is just better but i really find that getting "the shot" is just easier with the m8....and the lenses.....just amazing....if the m8 had 16 mpix, i would be the happiest person in the world....just shot a hair campaign and we had a LONG shotlist and i shot everything with m8...all is good but he cover of the brochure is a composite of 3 tight headshots cropped from 3/4 shots.....printed on 9x6....yes the files do hold up (especially after retouching), but with the P30 this would not even have been a question....but i would not have gotten the shots with the P30....
so i am wondering if the 1dsmk3 files would be so much better? i had the 1dsmk2 and got rid of it...too much "milky sharpness".....also i remember that the files did not hold up well when rezzd up.....does the extra resolution really make a difference, especially considering the relative softness that comes with it?
of course the m8 also does not shoot over 320...maybe 640 but again, with the relatively small file-size things get tricky.....and a semi-clean 640 or even 800 is VERY nice to have....
james: have you tried leica R lenses on the canon? i find that to be one of the biggest differences when i compare the m8 to the DSLRs....i can shoot straight out the window again (like in the film days....) the leica just handles the transitions so well....the lenses have to play a part in this....because even the P30 has a hard time with that with "lesser" MF lenses....
i guess i am just impatient because if leica announces the FF m9 in september my "problems" should be solved anyway...of course the m8 wasn't really usable for the first year, but that is a different story.....
a side-note....saw that phase updated C1 today to include automatic lens correction for hass H/V lenses....AND CONTAX! long live the dead....
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I regularly shoot Leica glass on the 1Ds2 and it makes a NOTABLE difference in delivered sharpness OOC, color rendition, contrast, etc. You'd swear it was a different sensor.
The best so far: 28/2.8 VerII, 60/2.8 Macro (stellar starting at F4), 100 APO Macro, 180/2.8 APO and 180/2 APO. The 19/2.8 VerII is excellent but needs modification. I personally love the 80 Summilux, but the picture it lays down is not to everyone's taste.
Some of the older Contax (35mm) lenses are also exceptional as are some of the cheaper (but very good) Cosina-Voigtlanders APOs (90/3.5, 180/4 and 125/2.5 macro) and some of the newer Zeiss ZFs (though I do consider them overpriced for what they deliver, the 50/2 macro aside, in terms of CA control and field curvature).
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I keep reading and rereading this thread thinking I'll find more info about the rumored R10 or new Leica MF camera... But it its telling that most of the discussion has been turned to the Canon 1DsIII, viewfinders and ISO performance. These are the things we all need independent of brand or format... Good high ISO files, a nice viewfinder and responsive camera. If you can't get the shot then the rest doesn't matter.
I hadn't shot my DMR since getting the Rollei 6008/P20 but took it out recently to shoot some stuff with it in an effort to decide whether to sell it or not. Definitely the files are closer to my P20 than my 5D and the leica glass is great. A lot of that R glass fits onto the canon so its not a problem if Leica doesn't come out with a new R body for me anyhow because I'll just buy the 1Ds3 especially after reading here about their new viewfinder. But I wonder about Leica - how many MF bodies will they sell if their existing user base is forced to buy a whole new collection of glass?
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I keep reading and rereading this thread thinking I'll find more info about the rumored R10 or new Leica MF camera... But it its telling that most of the discussion has been turned to the Canon 1DsIII, viewfinders and ISO performance. These are the things we all need independent of brand or format... Good high ISO files, a nice viewfinder and responsive camera. If you can't get the shot then the rest doesn't matter.
I hadn't shot my DMR since getting the Rollei 6008/P20 but took it out recently to shoot some stuff with it in an effort to decide whether to sell it or not. Definitely the files are closer to my P20 than my 5D and the leica glass is great. A lot of that R glass fits onto the canon so its not a problem if Leica doesn't come out with a new R body for me anyhow because I'll just buy the 1Ds3 especially after reading here about their new viewfinder. But I wonder about Leica - how many MF bodies will they sell if their existing user base is forced to buy a whole new collection of glass?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that is what it comes down to....big enough resolution to cover anything that might happen in post (which is quite a bit...) and especially cropping....high iso to shoot "available light" meaning mixing daylight and several different color lightsources...all with keeping the skintones in check....
add in stable tethering and a wide range of available glass and you pretty much get the 1dsmk3....
my m8 files seriously remind me of my 6008/P20 combo.....and those were really only 12 mpix (after 3:4 crop as well but definitely that extra touch larger) but without all the hassle...a big part of that has to be the glass (schneiders with the rollei!) shooting in bright sun with that combo was way easier than with the mamiya 645 or RZ with the P30...that HAS to be the glass....
the 5D is great but the viewfinder just does not work for me....and the highlights never look right...but then again i never tried that one with leica R glass either....
i went to a funky specialist lens shop in downtown LA...the guy sells a lot of leica m and r compatible lenses....and really old funky, uncoated movie lenses and such....a total specialist.....he just asked my why i bothered with the m8...."just use the canon sensor and get the right lenses".....
the problem is that kind of thing is so hard to look into....renting a ds3 is one thing but renting r glass....
the problem with a leica body is the reliability....it took the m8 almost a couple of years to get to the point where i don't have to worry about it...that is just not good enough....
but if it is the only game with a no AA CCD, 3:4 and about 20mpix shooting DNG.....very interesting....
that is one more thing i LOOOOVE about the m8...DNG out of the camera....small, manageable files that i can open in anything and don't have to worry about not being supported in the (near) future.....
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I use my leica R glass and old olympus zuikos on my 5D. I did some tests - good glass on the canon's makes a real difference. Even with lenses like the canon 85mm f/1.2 the leica 80 lux is still better at least IMHO. After my favorite canon lens the 70-200mm f/4 was stolen in Prague, I thought about buying a new one but the leica 80-200 is a bit better. Now if I had an even better viewfinder like people are reporting about the 1Ds3 then I wouldn't hesitate to use alternative glass.
Actually I sold all my canon glass except the 90 t/s and 2 IS zooms. The fact that so many different optics can be fit to the EOS mount really adds a lot to canon's versatility.
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i dont see the comparison to the MF viewfinder, it's a LOT bigger and brighter than the mk3 - it's great but not MF IMO...my H3 blows it away from renting it a few times w/ the H3 on hand...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
maybe the h3 is different, but when ive see it, its only a little more magnfied than the original h1, but i have both cameras- h1 and mk3 in front of me.
i can hold both cameras up looking through both at the same time (one eye each, but the h1 with a p25 mask), the frame height is equal, but the canon has about 20-30% wider in the same finder. on wide shots, its effectively heaps bigger than the h1, and i bet its still bigger than the magnified version of the h3 finder in area.
the thing that the canon beats the h1 hands down- the finder is a perfect rectangle when you look through, but the h1 is a fat distorted one.
i still like my h1, but for different reasons, but the canon has a better finder than the h1 .
paul
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I don't have the 1DsIII, but that's very true with other Canon models. The viewfinder shows depth of field that constantly approximates f/2.5 or f/2.8, even when you're using an f/1.2 lens. You can test this by using the manual depth of field preview button and gradually stopping down from f/1.2. There's no change in the apparent depth of field in the viewfinder until you stop down to about f/2.8 or smaller.
Canon offers an optional focusing screen that will show the depth of field at f/1.2, 1.4, etc. (what you see is what you get), but it's so much darker than the standard focusing screen that it's not worth using, in my opinion (unless you always shoot in bright conditions). The standard focusing screen represents a trade-off: you gain more brightness in the viewfinder but lose viewing of wide-open-aperture depth of field.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214290\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi, can you tell me which screen gives you the better representation with fast lenses?
cheers paul
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This is a pretty good list of what most of us would like to see in any camera. gwitf and Ronald have detailed it on other threads.
I know, I know . . . somebody is going to say, why keep talking about it, why not just use what's available? Well as gwitf says, we hope somebody is listening.
To begin with why doesn't every camera shoot a dng file that will work native in anything. My M8 files will process in Photoshop 7! The M-8 wasn't even out when 7 was introduced and it didn't take an update to get to use the M-8 files in that or anything.
Next, give us higher iso, even if it means a second back. I can't even begin to explain the last few days I've worked shooting with flash, HMI, daylight flouresent and daylight and the number of times I've had to go to 640 iso to get the balance exactly right.
I don't need high iso most of the time, heck not even 30% of the time but when I need it and I absolutely can't do without it.
Then if you want to sell us a camera (not talking digital here) just cameras, sell us a camera for life.
Actually so far I have a lifetime camera in a contax and it would take a lot to move me to another camera, but if I did I want it for a long time, not a 18 month cycle.
The AFI is the closest that comes to the lifetime camera, but they really need to get that camera out there in rentals and in the hands of photographers. It can't be the Bentley of cameras and also not easily available.
As far as color response, the backs need some new settings. The Phase in completely controlled conditions are great but with a mixture of light, especially ambient bounce, the Canons have remarkably pleasing skin tones.
Maybe this is just dream stuff, maybe our wants are just too small to register, but when I look at that poll on what was asked for ISO, the lcd viewing and lower price were way, way at the head of the list.
JR
that is what it comes down to....big enough resolution to cover anything that might happen in post (which is quite a bit...) and especially cropping....high iso to shoot "available light" meaning mixing daylight and several different color lightsources...all with keeping the skintones in check....
add in stable tethering and a wide range of available glass and you pretty much get the 1dsmk3....
my m8 files seriously remind me of my 6008/P20 combo.....and those were really only 12 mpix (after 3:4 crop as well but definitely that extra touch larger) but without all the hassle...a big part of that has to be the glass (schneiders with the rollei!) shooting in bright sun with that combo was way easier than with the mamiya 645 or RZ with the P30...that HAS to be the glass....
the 5D is great but the viewfinder just does not work for me....and the highlights never look right...but then again i never tried that one with leica R glass either....
i went to a funky specialist lens shop in downtown LA...the guy sells a lot of leica m and r compatible lenses....and really old funky, uncoated movie lenses and such....a total specialist.....he just asked my why i bothered with the m8...."just use the canon sensor and get the right lenses".....
the problem is that kind of thing is so hard to look into....renting a ds3 is one thing but renting r glass....
the problem with a leica body is the reliability....it took the m8 almost a couple of years to get to the point where i don't have to worry about it...that is just not good enough....
but if it is the only game with a no AA CCD, 3:4 and about 20mpix shooting DNG.....very interesting....
that is one more thing i LOOOOVE about the m8...DNG out of the camera....small, manageable files that i can open in anything and don't have to worry about not being supported in the (near) future.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Maybe this is just dream stuff, maybe our wants are just too small to register,
JR
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=214907\")
Imagine this in wi-fi. Imagine this device if you could wi-fi to 4 of them AND a computer with an easy setup.
[a href=\"http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=809632]http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=809632[/url]
Imagine this device if it had a touch screen and wi-fi.
JR
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Imagine this in wi-fi. Imagine this device if you could wi-fi to 4 of them AND a computer with an easy setup.
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=809632 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=809632)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We're getting closer, young man.
Imagine that device, with a Canon logo on it, and imagine if Canon's new WIFI device for the 1ds3 actually worked. Imagine if the working WIFI device could send out a tiny compressed JPG to that device. Imagine if the 1ds4 had a new custom menu that said "Playback to Slot One, or Slot Two, or External Device WIFI". Imagine that a version of EOS Utility was burned right into the firmware of this device, to receive and display the JPG for the Art Director.
The 1ds4 would still write the RAW to the CF card in Slot One, but the tiny compressed JPG Small would be WIFI'd to the external viewer.
And a four-inch LCD, like this unit features, is getting near the size of the old 669 Polaroid.
We're getting closer.
By the time that we're too old to care any more, they'll have it figured out.
Let's hope that PhaseOne is taking note of this too, but my money is on Canon/Nikon to actually figure it out.
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Imagine this in wi-fi. Imagine this device if you could wi-fi to 4 of them AND a computer with an easy setup.
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=809632 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=809632)
Imagine this device if it had a touch screen and wi-fi.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the canon wifi adapter enables the dsmkIII to shoot directly to a usb harddrive....i wonder if it could shoot directly to this epson....why not? it would then of course show the files as they come in...
not quite wifi but something....
leaf has had this since their aptus line....the bluetooth connection with the ipaq...worked amazingly well, especially considering how slow bluetooth is....
phase promised something with wifi years ago.....i guess even wifi N isn't really fast enough to cope with 30mb x5/sec.....usb sure isn't....
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Leica will have a press conference the next September 14th.
They will present the new products. New lenses for the M system and the new reflex system. Maybe new types of products not related with photography.
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We're getting closer, young man.
Imagine that device, with a Canon logo on it, and imagine if Canon's new WIFI device for the 1ds3 actually worked. Imagine if the working WIFI device could send out a tiny compressed JPG to that device. Imagine if the 1ds4 had a new custom menu that said "Playback to Slot One, or Slot Two, or External Device WIFI". Imagine that a version of EOS Utility was burned right into the firmware of this device, to receive and display the JPG for the Art Director.
The 1ds4 would still write the RAW to the CF card in Slot One, but the tiny compressed JPG Small would be WIFI'd to the external viewer.
And a four-inch LCD, like this unit features, is getting near the size of the old 669 Polaroid.
We're getting closer.
By the time that we're too old to care any more, they'll have it figured out.
Let's hope that PhaseOne is taking note of this too, but my money is on Canon/Nikon to actually figure it out.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=214938\")
Canon makes one of these devices for Canon files (at least they sell it in Japan), but it won't work with any other file. The Epson will as long as it's a dslr, (no medium format).
[a href=\"http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/07/13/canon-m80-portable-photo-storage-device/]http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/07/13/c...storage-device/[/url]
I bought the Epson for a fashion editorial shoot in Japan. We set up a tethered station, but also used the Epson device and the Japanese clients loved it. They could hold it and thumb through the images themselves and had the jpegs ready to download to their computer for comps and fpos.
We never ran the thethered computer, except for backup.
The problem with the Epson was (maybe still is) that the battery use is very low. Just downloadin and viewing a few cards pretty much used up the power.
I don't get it because the new Nikon and the new Canon cameras the batteries last forever.
The other problem is the interface takes some time to get used to, because it's not touch screen.
Touch screen is the way to go.
I just have the feeling the technology is there, it's just nobody wants to do it or the companies that want to don't have the resource, except Apple and I guess Apple doesn't care that much about professional photograpy given the fact that they are selling 60 trillion Ipods a week.
I still wonder how hard it is for some kid in Sweden to hack an Ipod touch to accept a jpeg from a camera.
JR
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I can hack you an app that will send images to any wifi ipod, iphone or laptop in the room.
Edmund
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I can hack you an app that will send images to any wifi ipod, iphone or laptop in the room.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214995\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
if you can do that, you will be very popular! the trick would be to try and make it easy to setup. ive tried really hard to get that wireless thing on the side of a canon to work, but no success. even tried to get computer nerd types to hep me, but they have had no luck. its just so unintuative, and really isnt designed for osx.
paul
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I can hack you an app that will send images to any wifi ipod, iphone or laptop in the room.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214995\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How much time do you need to do it and are you talking about an app that will send images to multiple ipods, iphones, laptops...?
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Just going back to alternative lenses the 1DS3....
5 months ago i ditched all my Canon glass except the 35f1.4 and replaced it with a mixture of Contax Zeiss and Nikon AIS. The reason was that when i first went from the 5D/1DS2 to the 1DS3 i was not quite as impressed as i thought i'd have been, with only two lenses (Canon 35f1.4 & 85f1.2)really capable of showing the differences at least in terms of detail captured, as for sure colour was miles better. Once the 21mm Contax was tried there was no going back and so i proceeded to try others. I now use a very small selection of well tested and chosen primes that suit my style and weigh as little as possible, being a travel shooter weight and versatility are key. My current lens list is 21mm Zeiss Contax, 28f2.8 Zeiss Contax, Canon 35f1.4, 50f1.4 Zeiss ZF, Nikon 105f2.5AIS. (Plus Mamiya 7 & 50/80 for film)
With live view the manual lenses are a dream, and as most of my work is tripod based, not an issue. Colour rendition and sharpness are the first things to note with the Zeiss, but more importantly it's the way they seem to retain shadow and highlight detail even in harsh light that's most impressive. With a chance a couple of days ago to try another Leica M8 i thought it would be interesting to see how it stacked up to the Canon Zeiss combo. The M8 had the Tri Elmar 16/18/21 on it so i compared the Zeiss 21 and 28 with both cameras at base ISO and both processed in Capture 4.1 my standard processor. After looking at both files as a 50MB 8bit tiff (my required stock filesize) it showed that no amount of AA filterless Leica lens magic was going to make the M8 anywhere near the Canon combo, not even close i'm afraid which is hardly surprising.
Gary.
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Once the 21mm Contax was tried there was no going back and so i proceeded to try others.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=215177\")
Here's a nice comparison of Nikon 14-24mm vs. Canon 24mm L vs. Sigma 12-24mm on the 1Ds3 - [a href=\"http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon_14_24mm_1/nikon14_24mm_a.html]http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon_14_24...n14_24mm_a.html[/url]
And here Nikon 12-24 vs. Contax 21 - http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon1424_2...1424_21mm1.html (http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon1424_21mm/nikon1424_21mm1.html)
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The new Sony fullframe is going to hit the streets this year, and Sony has been carefully building up a stock of Zeiss glass for it - I think come September there's going to be blood in the water of the Pro SLR pool.
Nikon has hit Canon where it was supreme - good action focus and Hi ISO. Sony is going to kill it in the studio with better hi-rez quality due to better prime lenses. Poor Canon is heading for reduced market share in the pro segment. But we'll always have Paris and the 5D
Edmund
Here's a nice comparison of Nikon 14-24mm vs. Canon 24mm L vs. Sigma 12-24mm on the 1Ds3 - http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon_14_24...n14_24mm_a.html (http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon_14_24mm_1/nikon14_24mm_a.html)
And here Nikon 12-24 vs. Contax 21 - http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon1424_2...1424_21mm1.html (http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon1424_21mm/nikon1424_21mm1.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The new Sony fullframe is going to hit the streets this year, and Sony has been carefully building up a stock of Zeiss glass for it - I think come September there's going to be blood in the water of the Pro SLR pool.
Nikon has hit Canon where it was supreme - good action focus and Hi ISO. Sony is going to kill it in the studio with better hi-rez quality due to better prime lenses. Poor Canon is heading for reduced market share in the pro segment. But we'll always have Paris and the 5D
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215192\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wonder if the Sony Zeiss optics will be any good, there are plenty of great names of lenses that make substandard lenses for other people. It'll be interesting to see.
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I wonder if the Sony Zeiss optics will be any good, there are plenty of great names of lenses that make substandard lenses for other people.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215196\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They are. 1.4/85 and 1.8/135 are just perfect right from wide open. the 24-70 seems to be excellent as well. wide angle lenses are announced... we will see. And certainly you can mount the Contax lenses as well. But - if needed - just the ZA Zeiss have AF.
If Sony can hit the pro market? I don't know... pros have to answer this question. Production quantity is still somehow small... you have to order and wait as the shops don't have the entire line in stock. But maybe that's just a matter of time...
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While I agree Canon is likely to get a further kick to the seams, which one hopes will 'motivate' them get their act together on QC, WA quality, AF mis-steps), I also agree with the following:
I wonder if the Sony Zeiss optics will be any good, there are plenty of great names of lenses that make substandard lenses for other people. It'll be interesting to see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215196\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Having owned a number of the Zeiss ZF lenses, they are very, very good, BUT the line is somewhat over-priced for what they deliver in CA control (average - the 50 macro excepted), field curvature in the shorter units and mechanical QC (ugly-stiff focus rings on some 100 ZFs and 85s).
The construction of the units also share a lot of qualities with (and similarities to) the older Cosina-Voigtlander SL line (of which I own two which are excellent). While it bears no impact on their delivery of IQ, to the detriment of many elitist egos, the Zeiss ZF line are, in reality a joint Zeiss/Cosina product.
Sadly comments like the above don't tend to get a polite reception in many places as a bit of Zeiss fan-boyism has worked it's way into many forums. I tell you, give people an excuse to forum a clique....
So while I assume a lot of the Sony-Zeiss lenses will be stellar, I do think there will be a premium paid in many cases that has more to do with the name on the front vs. the IQ and QC the name on the front would imply.
Leica would have the same issue is it ever licensed it's designs to others - how far are you willing to let things slide, if at all, for the sake of cash?
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Conner,
I would agree with you on the ZF line to some extent as whilst trying the alternatives from the ZF line for my 1DS3 i found the 85f1.4 to be lacking both ergonomically and a little optically, too much CA. The 50f1.4 ZF was much better optically although still a little CA till f2.8, however ergonomically a joy. The Contax Zeiss 21 and 28 are superior in all respects to my eyes, 21mm distortion aside. If it wasn't for the fact that the Contax adapters are a little hit and miss and the Nikon/ZF to Canon adapters i have found are so good, i would probably use Contax for the 50 & 100 focal lengths.
Gary.
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So while I assume a lot of the Sony-Zeiss lenses will be stellar, I do think there will be a premium paid in many cases that has more to do with the name on the front vs. the IQ and QC the name on the front would imply.
Leica would have the same issue is it ever licensed it's designs to others - how far are you willing to let things slide, if at all, for the sake of cash?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215208\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've seen some of these Zeiss-branded Sony primes, and build quality is very good. I expect optics to be good too, as these lenses have basically just been prepped for release with the fullframe - I don't think many of the crop-series buyers have resorted to them not least because they probably retail for more than the price of those cameras.
As an aside, the same phenomenon is true in the Canon range where the really good primes eg 35/1.4 or 85/1.2 cost more than a Rebel body.
Edmund
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They are. 1.4/85 and 1.8/135 are just perfect right from wide open. the 24-70 seems to be excellent as well. wide angle lenses are announced... we will see. And certainly you can mount the Contax lenses as well. But - if needed - just the ZA Zeiss have AF.
If Sony can hit the pro market? I don't know... pros have to answer this question. Production quantity is still somehow small... you have to order and wait as the shops don't have the entire line in stock. But maybe that's just a matter of time...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215201\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is the 24-70 much better than the canon 24-70 L do you know?
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Is the 24-70 much better than the canon 24-70 L do you know?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215238\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That isn't really hard, is it ^^
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Hey Gary,
I normally use Rudolph's (happypagehk) CZ and R adapters but have taken a different tack with Nikon. Use FotodioxPro and ordered some custom-encoded Nikon chips from Rudolph to use on the adapters (CV 90/3.5 APO and 180/4 APO).
On the ZF line - I agree with your assessment. The only ZF unit I'm still interested is possibly a 50/2 macro - but at used prices only.
Cheers
Rob
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Other than some field curvature at 24mm, the Nikon 24-70 is a barn burner vs the Canon alternatives.
For comparable tests see: www.photozone.de
Is the 24-70 much better than the canon 24-70 L do you know?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215238\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hey Gary,
I normally use Rudolph's (happypagehk) CZ and R adapters but have taken a different tack with Nikon. Use FotodioxPro and ordered some custom-encoded Nikon chips from Rudolph to use on the adapters (CV 90/3.5 APO and 180/4 APO).
On the ZF line - I agree with your assessment. The only ZF unit I'm still interested is possibly a 50/2 macro - but at used prices only.
Cheers
Rob
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Rob,
I will have a look for the adapters you suggest. Adapters i have had most success with are the 'Rayqual' Nikon to EOS that Robert White sell which are perfect, and some ebay ones from Hong Kong which will focus past infinity for Contax. I did try the Photodiox (not pro version) for the Contax however it would not focus the lenses past 30ft or so. I would be very interested in trying some old Leica 'R' glass in the 50-90 range as i used to shoot with them with both 'M' and 'R' for years.
Cheers,
Gary.
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Is the 24-70 much better than the canon 24-70 L do you know?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=215238\")
Me I don't know the Canon nor the 24-70. Just ZA 1.4/85 and the ZA 1.8/135
[a href=\"http://www.photozone.de/Reviews/47-sony-alpha-aps-c/380-zeiss_za_2470_28]http://www.photozone.de/Reviews/47-sony-al...eiss_za_2470_28[/url]
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27589 (http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27589)
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Other than some field curvature at 24mm, the Nikon 24-70 is a barn burner vs the Canon alternatives.
For comparable tests see: www.photozone.de
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Whats a barn burner?
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That isn't really hard, is it ^^
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't understand what you mean?
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"barn burner" weird expression I now -- means excellent or stellar, etc - no idea where expression came from.
Talked to Fotodiox some time ago. Their pro units are essentially Elefoto (sic?) units. Their consumer or non-pro are lower-grade generic units sourced out of some unknown Chinese production shop. Their Nikon and MF PRO adapter (Hassy & Mamiya) are nicely made - but not chipped.
I'll have to look at Rayqual (unless I move to Nikon). CameraQuest units are essentially Kindai adapters - considered the gold standard by many.
Rudolph (HPHK) sources sources his adapters out of from a 3rd party but actually does QC on the input side. He will also custom-encode the chip for the FL and aperture you select for no extra charge. I use him for CZ and Leica R.
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I don't understand what you mean?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215288\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
24-70 from canon isn't a good lens... Well it is one of the better Canon ones, but still a crappy lens.
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24-70 from canon isn't a good lens... Well it is one of the better Canon ones, but still a crappy lens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215309\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I always thought the 24-70 L was supposed to be one of canons best. (non telephoto that is).
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I always thought the 24-70 L was supposed to be one of canons best. (non telephoto that is).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
well, I had it and sold it again, wasn't reakky impressed by it. (had three copies)
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I had a great experience with my 24-70 before it was stolen. It was a bit soft at 2.8 on the wide end, but nothing I'd call dissappointing. But with a 1dsmkIII that might be a different story.
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are there any adapters for all these contax and nikon and leica lenses that give me focus confirmation on the canons? i could not care less about metering and manually setting the f-stop but i usually only use focus confirmation with AF systems....
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I had a great experience with my 24-70 before it was stolen. It was a bit soft at 2.8 on the wide end, but nothing I'd call dissappointing. But with a 1dsmkIII that might be a different story.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215353\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mine is very nice on my 1Ds mkIII
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are there any adapters for all these contax and nikon and leica lenses that give me focus confirmation on the canons? i could not care less about metering and manually setting the f-stop but i usually only use focus confirmation with AF systems....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215355\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No.
But a screen with split image is the very best confirmation...
(edit: oops... sorry! Didn't know about adapters supporting focus confirmation... just know about those without.)
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del
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are there any adapters for all these contax and nikon and leica lenses that give me focus confirmation on the canons? i could not care less about metering and manually setting the f-stop but i usually only use focus confirmation with AF systems....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215355\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, there are some focus confirmation chips floating around. There's also Conrus who do some full AF conversions of some Contax lenses.
Edmund
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Yes, there are some focus confirmation chips floating around. There's also Conrus who do some full AF conversions of some Contax lenses.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i saw some on ebay...was wondering if they are any good....the prices are SO all over the place...the novoflex are 240 and are "dumb" and there are some for 30 that promise contacts....i guess they are just flimsy? if anyone has any actual experience i would be grateful.....
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Mine is very nice on my 1Ds mkIII
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is nice until you see a 28, leica or zeiss prime and when you are starting to wonder, why are you throwing away so much image quality. So my silution was the Leica 35-70. I know the range is not as wide, but the quality is up to every prime lens in that area.
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There's tons of info on the different Leica to EOS adapters on FredMiranda's alternative forum. But I think the deal is some of them don't allow focus to infinity because they are too fat, some are not machined well and not parallel and some have the chips glued on poorly or where they will get knocked off.
I've got a couple of the happypageHK adapters, one for Leica to EOS, and one for Oly OM to EOS and they have worked fine for me. Neither look like high quality machine work but were considerably cheaper than cameraquest or fotodiox.
I think the suggestion to get individually coded ones is a great idea - when I go through my image catalogs I can tell which image was not shot with canon glass, but can't tell which lens was used.
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It is nice until you see a 28, leica or zeiss prime and when you are starting to wonder, why are you throwing away so much image quality. So my silution was the Leica 35-70. I know the range is not as wide, but the quality is up to every prime lens in that area.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've had a lot of different glass on this camera and quite frankly the 24-70 is quite nice and if it gives anything away it by far makes up for it by actually working as designed for the camera and not bring hobbled like adapter lenses.
That in itself is worth a few lp/mm in pressure filled commercial shoots.
When you add in offset, its a moot point.
YMMV
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I've had a lot of different glass on this camera and quite frankly the 24-70 is quite nice and if it gives anything away it by far makes up for it by actually working as designed for the camera and not bring hobbled like adapter lenses.
That in itself is worth a few lp/mm in pressure filled commercial shoots.
When you add in offset, its a moot point.
YMMV
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215437\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is a strange lens, because everyone has different impressions of it. When I was still trying to publish in magazines I had some shots published from this lens. Which I used because I was in a hurry and it got the job done. They liked them, I didn't.
Edmund
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It is nice until you see a 28, leica or zeiss prime and when you are starting to wonder, why are you throwing away so much image quality. So my silution was the Leica 35-70. I know the range is not as wide, but the quality is up to every prime lens in that area.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
God I'd love a nice 18mm zeiss prime with AF for my 450D. I'd pay a lot for that.
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if you can do that, you will be very popular! the trick would be to try and make it easy to setup. ive tried really hard to get that wireless thing on the side of a canon to work, but no success. even tried to get computer nerd types to hep me, but they have had no luck. its just so unintuative, and really isnt designed for osx.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215157\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Paul is right, it has to be plug and play with an application that allows the clients to scroll back, something like the gallery functions in I-photo.
It also has to allow the jpeg to go into the computer.
On set we just don't have the time to run over to 4 different clients and say, here do this, or do that, or double push this button.
This week on location I notice the clients get monitor fatigue. On location moving set to set there is just no place for them to always be comfortable and see the image. Sometimes it's great but as the day goes on they are trying to see the secondary monitor and not be in the way of the shot.
A hand held device would do wonders, but once again it has to be simple.
JR
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i saw some on ebay...was wondering if they are any good....the prices are SO all over the place...the novoflex are 240 and are "dumb" and there are some for 30 that promise contacts....i guess they are just flimsy? if anyone has any actual experience i would be grateful.....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=215370\")
I have two Contax to Canon adapters from happypageHK bought on Ebay which I use on 21mm and 60mm Macro lenses with excellent results. The focus confirmation works perfectly.
Here is a summery of what seems to be available from happy and others...my apologies if this link has already been referenced.
[a href=\"http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/compatible.html]http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/compatible.html[/url]
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Plz Canon just give me a GOOD 28-70 or even 35-70 at 2.8 with IS and I will be so happy ;-)
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http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/compatible.html (http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/compatible.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am certainly curious about using Zeiss lenses on the 1ds3, but I never get definitive answers why someone would go to this trouble. And are these landscape guys using these things, where they want to count the leaf blades from a mile and a half away? I just find that, with proper sharpening, the Canon files are just fine with Canon lenses. And with none of the PITA Factor, in terms of stop down metering, etc. And if someone wanted to be that anal, why wouldn't they just buy a P45 or an A75, and totally go for the gusto, if counting leaf blades was your cup of tea? Why would you settle on a CMOS sensor?
I'd just love to see a 100% mag side by side test. Something physical, to really see if it was worth the trouble.
And the other weird thing is, the same people who are screaming about resolution many times are shooting handheld instead of tripod, so doesn't that invalidate everything? How can you bitch about lack of resolution, and then in the same breath, ask for Image Stabilization, when you've got a mirror in there flopping around? Something just doesn't add up to me.
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I am certainly curious about using Zeiss lenses on the 1ds3, but I never get definitive answers why someone would go to this trouble. And are these landscape guys using these things, where they want to count the leaf blades from a mile and a half away? I just find that, with proper sharpening, the Canon files are just fine with Canon lenses. And with none of the PITA Factor, in terms of stop down metering, etc. And if someone wanted to be that anal, why wouldn't they just buy a P45 or an A75, and totally go for the gusto, if counting leaf blades was your cup of tea? Why would you settle on a CMOS sensor?
I'd just love to see a 100% mag side by side test. Something physical, to really see if it was worth the trouble.
And the other weird thing is, the same people who are screaming about resolution many times are shooting handheld instead of tripod, so doesn't that invalidate everything? How can you bitch about lack of resolution, and then in the same breath, ask for Image Stabilization, when you've got a mirror in there flopping around? Something just doesn't add up to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
First some of us settle on a CMOS sensor, because we need a camera which can be used for a lot of different tasks and still deliveres hq results. Not all of us can afford a good dSLR system and a good MF System. Why do some of us shoot handheld but bitch about Canon glass ? Well because even handheld you can see that Zeiss, Leica and now even Nikon show higher resolution and especially better corner performance. Canon has great lenses from 70 up to 1200, but the lower end just isn't very good. Yes there are some better ones, like the 35L/f1.4, but generally they suck. I mean what is wrong here ? A Nikon zoom (12-24) outperformes easly a Canon Prime .... Both the Canon 14L and 24L have no real chance against the zoom.
have you really looked at to different shots from a 1DsMk3 ? I mean handheld ( speed twice of the focal length ) and a tripod image with mirror lockup adn etc ? There is a small difference, but not really visible in a final print, but the difference between a Canon 28 and a Leica 28 is visible. (Edges are much cleaner and sharper)
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I am certainly curious about using Zeiss lenses on the 1ds3, but I never get definitive answers why someone would go to this trouble. And are these landscape guys using these things, where they want to count the leaf blades from a mile and a half away? I just find that, with proper sharpening, the Canon files are just fine with Canon lenses. And with none of the PITA Factor, in terms of stop down metering, etc. And if someone wanted to be that anal, why wouldn't they just buy a P45 or an A75, and totally go for the gusto, if counting leaf blades was your cup of tea? Why would you settle on a CMOS sensor?
I'd just love to see a 100% mag side by side test. Something physical, to really see if it was worth the trouble.
And the other weird thing is, the same people who are screaming about resolution many times are shooting handheld instead of tripod, so doesn't that invalidate everything? How can you bitch about lack of resolution, and then in the same breath, ask for Image Stabilization, when you've got a mirror in there flopping around? Something just doesn't add up to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
For me, it's neither about being 'anal' or resolution.
If shooting at 21mm with almost complete lack of distortion is important to you, as well as taking sharp photographs (right into the corners) at 2.8, or if having no chromatic aberrations to try and correct in post is on your shopping list - then Canon simply don't have a lens to fit the bill. I personally wouldn't forgo coupled metering unless the results really justified it. The second hand price tag on this lens says alot about the quality of the optics you are buying.
Equally, does Canon produce a flat field lens with next to no barrel distortion and minimal aberrations for technical work at around the 50mm length?....no, hence the use of a Zeiss 60mm Macro.
It has to be said the resolving power of these old Contax lenses is excellent - but the reasons for investing go far beyond resolution. Both lenses help produce superb photographs, both technically and aesthetically.
If you have the opportunity and inclination do try them for yourself.
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this might be a stupid question...but when you use leica (or any other brand) lenses on the canon via adapter....the f-stop obviously has to be set on the lens....does the f-stop close down? meaning does the finder go darker when i shoot at f8?
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im looking for an old lens to stick on the front of my canon that flares badly. i like the look, but i still resonably sharp, but something i can point at a highlight and it flares like a cheap 60s 16mm movie camera.
so im going to use a canon to nikon adaptor, and try a really old nikon 50 1.4.
it might still be a bit too good, but its cheap to try.
can anyone suggest another fast, but old and imperfect lens to try?
paul
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The Z21 has mustache distorsion.
Edmund
For me, it's neither about being 'anal' or resolution.
If shooting at 21mm with almost complete lack of distortion is important to you, as well as taking sharp photographs (right into the corners) at 2.8, or if having no chromatic aberrations to try and correct in post is on your shopping list - then Canon simply don't have a lens to fit the bill. I personally wouldn't forgo coupled metering unless the results really justified it. The second hand price tag on this lens says alot about the quality of the optics you are buying.
Equally, does Canon produce a flat field lens with next to no barrel distortion and minimal aberrations for technical work at around the 50mm length?....no, hence the use of a Zeiss 60mm Macro.
It has to be said the resolving power of these old Contax lenses is excellent - but the reasons for investing go far beyond resolution. Both lenses help produce superb photographs, both technically and aesthetically.
If you have the opportunity and inclination do try them for yourself.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The Z21 has mustache distorsion.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215555\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Which isn't really a problem as long as you are not shooting architecture and for that I would not use any slr ^^
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im looking for an old lens to stick on the front of my canon that flares badly. i like the look, but i still resonably sharp, but something i can point at a highlight and it flares like a cheap 60s 16mm movie camera.
so im going to use a canon to nikon adaptor, and try a really old nikon 50 1.4.
it might still be a bit too good, but its cheap to try.
can anyone suggest another fast, but old and imperfect lens to try?
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That will not work with a nikon 1,4. That was one of the best lenses ever unless you get a very very old one. The nikon 1,2 50 or 58 mm on the other hand could do the trick. i often used on on my digiflex with CF39Mp back. This way you get a 22Mp 35mm back with an unsurpassed image quality and a perfect use of all possible lenses.
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...the f-stop obviously has to be set on the lens....does the f-stop close down? meaning does the finder go darker when i shoot at f8?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215545\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes. The finder goes dark.
That's what I meant by PITA Factor.
Imagine shooting people with that lens: Shoot; open lens; refocus; hope they don't move; stop back down; shoot.
Rinse and repeat, about a hundred times.
You might as well be shooting a view camera, and get the extra mojo out of the lens...
The only exception to the PITA thing would be if you were shooting wide open, and then at that point, it's just as fast as shooting a Canon lens that's talking to the camera body.
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Yes. The finder goes dark.
That's what I meant by PITA Factor.
Imagine shooting people with that lens: Shoot; open lens; refocus; hope they don't move; stop back down; shoot.
Rinse and repeat, about a hundred times.
You might as well be shooting a view camera, and get the extra mojo out of the lens...
The only exception to the PITA thing would be if you were shooting wide open, and then at that point, it's just as fast as shooting a Canon lens that's talking to the camera body.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes it always depends on the use. I don't should people with third party lenses. I tend not to shoot people at all :-P
For landscape, cityscape and my type of work it doesn't bother me to much. Would I want to a nice Canon lens with AF ? Yes certainly, but I on some work I don't want to trade the best possible quality from my camera. On other projects I don't care to much about sharpness and I will shoot with my 24-105. It always depends on what I want to achieve.
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That will not work with a nikon 1,4. That was one of the best lenses ever unless you get a very very old one. The nikon 1,2 50 or 58 mm on the other hand could do the trick. i often used on on my digiflex with CF39Mp back. This way you get a 22Mp 35mm back with an unsurpassed image quality and a perfect use of all possible lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215558\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi, i realy ment the 1.2 50 (or is a 55mm). thanks for the example.
paul
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hi, i realy ment the 1.2 50 (or is a 55mm). thanks for the example.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I had the 50mm 1,2 but i think the 55 1,2 nis a bit "better" for the effect you want. You can also try russian lenses: succes guaranteed!!! On my Contax i used very old folding camera lenses mounted in pentacon-six tubes and a contax adapter: best flare and other softfocus effects .
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The Z21 has mustache distorsion.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215555\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund,
Yes, this is why I used the phrase "almost complete lack of distortion" - the mustache distortion is slight, but nothing in comparison to the fully auto-everything, bendy everything, soft corner, chromatic aberration steeped Canon 'L' series wide angle lens offerings.
I would prefer to use a fully coupled Canon lens, but for me, it's the look of the final result as opposed to the tools I use to get there that matters.... unfortunately Canon seems unable to make decent wide-angle lenses. In fact they are so dismal that even the hassle of manually stopped down metering doesn't out way how duff they are.
I don't hold a flag for either Canon or Zeiss... if Zenit made a wide anle lens that behaved like the Zeiss 21mm you'd probably find that on the front of my Canon camera - and me on holiday spending the money I'd saved!
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Agree with prior poster. I use/used Leica R, CY, ZF, Hassy Mamiya, CV, Nikon and, yes, EF on my EOS bodies and while I am as gear-agnostic as you can get, Canon needs to get its act together in the non-sport focal lengths (with a couple of exceptions) and in QC.
A good alternate lens and adapter(<$100) can breath a new life into your sensor - for not always big $$.
The trick when shopping for alternate glass is to see above the various Leica, OM, CZ and now sadly Zeiss ZF so-called 'fanboy' BS that praises every lens ever made by ____ and pounds on anyone who offers a more balanced critique.
The funniest example of this being a couple of ZF cheerleaders on FM who just took to task (unknowingly) the designer of the jaw-dropping Coastal Optics 60mm F4 APO UV, IR (amongst others) over his technical critique of the new 18 ZF vs the 21 CY. The fact that they continued to push it when they knew he was a designer took it from funny to plain sad.
Nothing degrades someone's manners faster nor enhances their 'expertise', ego and bravery more than internet access and a forum nom d'guerre (sic?).
The trick is not too look for the praise a lens gets, but any critiques. One of those will tell you more than 101 useless 'it's awesome and a bargain' responses to your query.
You'd think photogs that use alternate glass would be more agnostic, but give people an excuse.....
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Actually,almost all the alternative glass I've used has beaten the originals I think what's happening is the profit margins on modern glass are too big.
The Canon wides are the worst offenders, I think they can be beaten by almost anything else. I've used the Nikon 17-35, Leica 21, Zeiss 21, anything alternative I have used has beaten my Canon 24-70 and Canon 24. I one told some Canon Inc guys this, it was obvious they were aware that all is not as good as it should be.
I don't think the Canon guys are dumb, I think they've been forced to hold down costs. The 24 shift is a particularly bad offender, which is a pity because it is a good physical design and very convenient to use; so convenient in fact that it cannot be replaced. The 50/1.8 is also less good than it should be, whereas Nikon recommend their own 50 as one of their best lenses. Canon has let their range of primes rot. I'm really looking forward to Leica or Sony/Zeiss bringing better glass into the equation of 35mm or equivalent modern systems.
As for tricks when shopping, why bother ? Most of the 42mm screw-thread lenses can be found for less than $100, Contax 28mm idem, old manual Nikon or Olympus glass is also almost worthless now. It's a buyer's market as long as you don't need Leica glass or the really rare Zeiss pieces (21mm).
Frankly, when shooting as a hobby, I don't care much, but back in the days when I showed people full-page published editorial images and they remarked about missing sharpness, I must admit I was ashamed
I'm going to get an Alpa TC for my Phase back for travel - it'll be an update on the Zeiss 21 Nothing else could beat that lens.
Edmund
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Actually,almost all the alternative glass I've used has beaten the originals I think what's happening is the profit margins on modern glass are too big.
The Canon wides are the worst offenders, I think they can be beaten by almost anything else. I've used the Nikon 17-35, Leica 21, Zeiss 21, anything alternative I have used has beaten my Canon 24-70 and Canon 24. I one told some Canon Inc guys this, it was obvious they were aware that all is not as good as it should be.
I don't think the Canon guys are dumb, I think they've been forced to hold down costs. The 24 shift is a particularly bad offender, which is a pity because it is a good physical design and very convenient to use; so convenient in fact that it cannot be replaced. The 50/1.8 is also less good than it should be, whereas Nikon recommend their own 50 as one of their best lenses. Canon has let their range of primes rot. I'm really looking forward to Leica or Sony/Zeiss bringing better glass into the equation of 35mm or equivalent modern systems.
As for tricks when shopping, why bother ? Most of the 42mm screw-thread lenses can be found for less than $100, Contax 28mm idem, old manual Nikon or Olympus glass is also almost worthless now. It's a buyer's market as long as you don't need Leica glass or the really rare Zeiss pieces (21mm).
Frankly, when shooting as a hobby, I don't care much, but back in the days when I showed people full-page published editorial images and they remarked about missing sharpness, I must admit I was ashamed
I'm going to get an Alpa TC for my Phase back for travel - it'll be an update on the Zeiss 21 Nothing else could beat that lens.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As well as cost constraints, I believe that latter day lens designers are also up against EC ruling that won't allow them to produce lenses with glass containing Lead or any other 'banned' substance. As I understand it, the optical properties of glass containing Lead were more efficient in earlier wide angle lens design than later incarnations.
I feel certain that if Canon could do the job cost effectively with the available (allowed) materials right now then they would.
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As well as cost constraints, I believe that latter day lens designers are also up against EC ruling that won't allow them to produce lenses with glass containing Lead or any other 'banned' substance. As I understand it, the optical properties of glass containing Lead were more efficient in earlier wide angle lens design than later incarnations.
I feel certain that if Canon could do the job cost effectively with the available (allowed) materials right now then they would.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I like the Canon products - their system is top-grade consistent, usable and flexible. But it now lacks "flash" or fun factor; Canon used to be the BMW of cameras but it has turned into Mercedes - reliable but a bit stodgy. Nowhere near cutting edge.
Edmund
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That's a fair statement Edmund. Perhaps a bit understated because there is value in consistent, dependable performance. Canon does an excellent job in delivering a system that can handle a very broad range of conditions.
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Canon makes one of these devices for Canon files (at least they sell it in Japan), but it won't work with any other file. The Epson will as long as it's a dslr, (no medium format).
http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/07/13/c...storage-device/ (http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/07/13/canon-m80-portable-photo-storage-device/)
I bought the Epson for a fashion editorial shoot in Japan. We set up a tethered station, but also used the Epson device and the Japanese clients loved it. They could hold it and thumb through the images themselves and had the jpegs ready to download to their computer for comps and fpos.
We never ran the thethered computer, except for backup.
The problem with the Epson was (maybe still is) that the battery use is very low. Just downloadin and viewing a few cards pretty much used up the power.
I don't get it because the new Nikon and the new Canon cameras the batteries last forever.
The other problem is the interface takes some time to get used to, because it's not touch screen.
Touch screen is the way to go.
I just have the feeling the technology is there, it's just nobody wants to do it or the companies that want to don't have the resource, except Apple and I guess Apple doesn't care that much about professional photograpy given the fact that they are selling 60 trillion Ipods a week.
I still wonder how hard it is for some kid in Sweden to hack an Ipod touch to accept a jpeg from a camera.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214969\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the canon wifi adapter can actually also be a http server....so it can run a website with all thumbs and previews (full size must get slow...)....which can be accessed by any iphone or ipod touch!....i will have to look into that but it seems like you might have your solution....
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the canon wifi adapter can actually also be a http server....so it can run a website with all thumbs and previews (full size must get slow...)....which can be accessed by any iphone or ipod touch!....i will have to look into that but it seems like you might have your solution....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Paul . . . thanks,
I'll try it if we have time. I don't know about wi-fi for raw files, it seems to me like it could be slow.
Last week we were in Miami on location, this week NY.
Most of these two jobs I've shot with the Canon, some with the Contax Phase, all tethered.
The 1ds3 is kinda strange tethering. If you shoot slow, it runs for a long time though the previews get slower and slower shooting raw and small jpeg. Finally you just it a buffer, kind of like the old 1ds1 and you just have to wait.
It works out, but is annoying to wait.
Medium format on the other hand just tethers so easy and fast. The previews may run behind but you never really hit a buffer and the whole system is so much more professional than Canon's tethering.
Still, there is a few things the Phase needs. Higher ISO, I've said it a lot but for the last two weeks, there are times I go to 640 to 800 iso and need it very clean and the Phase (both my p21+ and P30+) just hits a wall at anything above 400 iso.
Second is 3.78's previews. They just look too sharp and crunchy (for lack of a better word).
It's interesting if you go from the Phase to the Canon the Canon files looks soft, but if you go the other way around 3.78 looks over sharpened and somewhat brittle. V4 pro can not come out a minute too soon.
Previews on screen are so important. It's just the first thing everyone sees and to see it big and film like is so important.
Anyway, used the camera that worked for the job and everything is good, other than tonight I am way tired.
Sent to me today from on-set
(http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/ny_19_08.jpg)
Shot by the Hair Artist with his I-phone and e-mailed to me.
I know this is a very small file, but imagine being able to e-mail a preview like this from the camera, or to wi-fi it to everyone's I-phone or I-pod?
JR
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Paul . . . thanks,
I'll try it if we have time. I don't know about wi-fi for raw files, it seems to me like it could be slow.
Last week we were in Miami on location, this week NY.
Most of these two jobs I've shot with the Canon, some with the Contax Phase, all tethered.
The 1ds3 is kinda strange tethering. If you shoot slow, it runs for a long time though the previews get slower and slower shooting raw and small jpeg. Finally you just it a buffer, kind of like the old 1ds1 and you just have to wait.
It works out, but is annoying to wait.
Medium format on the other hand just tethers so easy and fast. The previews may run behind but you never really hit a buffer and the whole system is so much more professional than Canon's tethering.
Still, there is a few things the Phase needs. Higher ISO, I've said it a lot but for the last two weeks, there are times I go to 640 to 800 iso and need it very clean and the Phase (both my p21+ and P30+) just hits a wall at anything above 400 iso.
Second is 3.78's previews. They just look too sharp and crunchy (for lack of a better word).
It's interesting if you go from the Phase to the Canon the Canon files looks soft, but if you go the other way around 3.78 looks over sharpened and somewhat brittle. V4 pro can not come out a minute too soon.
Previews on screen are so important. It's just the first thing everyone sees and to see it big and film like is so important.
Anyway, used the camera that worked for the job and everything is good, other than tonight I am way tired.
Sent to me today from on-set
(http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/ny_19_08.jpg)
Shot by the Hair Artist with his I-phone and e-mailed to me.
I know this is a very small file, but imagine being able to e-mail a preview like this from the camera, or to wi-fi it to everyone's I-phone or I-pod?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi James
I know this is off topic but what type of boots do you wear. We both have a boot collection.
Thanks Denis
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Paul . . . thanks,
I'll try it if we have time. I don't know about wi-fi for raw files, it seems to me like it could be slow.
Last week we were in Miami on location, this week NY.
Most of these two jobs I've shot with the Canon, some with the Contax Phase, all tethered.
The 1ds3 is kinda strange tethering. If you shoot slow, it runs for a long time though the previews get slower and slower shooting raw and small jpeg. Finally you just it a buffer, kind of like the old 1ds1 and you just have to wait.
It works out, but is annoying to wait.
Medium format on the other hand just tethers so easy and fast. The previews may run behind but you never really hit a buffer and the whole system is so much more professional than Canon's tethering.
Still, there is a few things the Phase needs. Higher ISO, I've said it a lot but for the last two weeks, there are times I go to 640 to 800 iso and need it very clean and the Phase (both my p21+ and P30+) just hits a wall at anything above 400 iso.
Second is 3.78's previews. They just look too sharp and crunchy (for lack of a better word).
It's interesting if you go from the Phase to the Canon the Canon files looks soft, but if you go the other way around 3.78 looks over sharpened and somewhat brittle. V4 pro can not come out a minute too soon.
Previews on screen are so important. It's just the first thing everyone sees and to see it big and film like is so important.
Anyway, used the camera that worked for the job and everything is good, other than tonight I am way tired.
Sent to me today from on-set
(http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/ny_19_08.jpg)
Shot by the Hair Artist with his I-phone and e-mailed to me.
I know this is a very small file, but imagine being able to e-mail a preview like this from the camera, or to wi-fi it to everyone's I-phone or I-pod?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i am getting my canon tomorrow and will try to look into the wifi gizmo a little when i get my hands on one....
it really sounds promising though.....raw files would be way too slow and not really necessary anyway...but from the manual (and what i have seen on the web...) you can set it up so anyone can access the files in the camera (cf or sd slots) via any web browser, like a little thumbnail gallery....so if you shoot small jepgs to one card all day long it should never fill up and anyone can check out the small jpegs on their iphones....the larger the files the longer this would obviously take, but this really isn't about large files anyway....
do you use C1 or the canon software to shoot tethered?
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Hi James
I know this is off topic but what type of boots do you wear. We both have a boot collection.
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Denis,
I have a lot of different brands.
Tony Lama
Luchessi
Justin
Dan Post
Nocona
and a some from the smaller hand made boot companies.
Use to be just Dan Post but now there are so many good ones
Paul,
I use the Canon Software for the 1ds3. It's kind of clunky but it works.
Paul Jones,
One trick for a lens that flares is visit the beach.
I use to have one Canon 50mm 1.4 that I kept cappped up from a day at the beach.
That fine mist after about 4 hours would make the most beautiful look to the lens, it will still hold sharpness, but also was very nice for flared and soft out of focus areas.
(http://russellrutherford.com/life/thumbs/th_054rr_life_june_08.jpg)
Another is some of the older Russian Lenses. They flare nice and I think there is adapters for all of them.
JR
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i am getting my canon tomorrow and will try to look into the wifi gizmo a little when i get my hands on one....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216167\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Make sure you buy the WIFI device from a company that'll take it back, no questions asked. Everyone that I know that's bought one has returned theirs, and I'm talking about super-savvy technical people. It's a great idea in theory, but for some reason, it seems to give problems in the real world, which is where I live. Dropping connection; shutting down; just plain not working. For me, it worked in my living room, which is where I tested it, but anytime under pressure, it simply malfunctioned half the time. If it was ALL the time, I'd think it might be the user, but when it's half the time, that just introduces doubt, and no one needs doubt in a job.
Maybe by the third generation, it'll actually work.
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getting back to the original topic
its pretty obvious what Leica are going to do - announce some new format with an area just larger than 36x24, based on an economic wafer yield analysis. if you map out the wafer carefully and find you can trim (eg) 4mm off the end and add 2mm height and get higher yield, et voila - its a new format!
after all there really is no reason why sensors should still be 36x24, and as Leica was the one that came up with that, we can expect them to widely promote themselves as establishing a new format for the 21st century.
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Actually, I'm quite happy for manufacturers to use different formats, as long as they ensure that there is a good spread of lenses in focal lengths that make sense for that sensor size/shape. It's something that consumers take for granted - consumer digicams come with sensors of all sorts of sizes, although nearly all are 4:3 aspect ratio, but the lenses are always matched in focal length to provide approximately a wide angle of 35mm or so in 35mm film equivalence. This is totally the reverse of medium format digital, until Mamiya and Hasselblad finally released their respective 28mm wide angle lenses. Up until then, photographers were restricted to 40mm or 35mm ultra-wides that were designed originally for 6x6 or 6x4.5 film.
I love my square 36mm x 36mm sensor, and I dare say that it would have been more successful as a sensor product had there been a decent selection of wide angle options for it, rather than people trying to use a 30mm fisheye that was designed for 6x6cm on a 3.6cm x 3.6cm sensor.
Which brings me to the point of how silly it is really to use millimeters to specify a lens' main characteristic, when what we really want to know is the angle of view, which is far more relevant and tells me much more. Grrr!
So I really hope that they ensure that there are decent wide options for it (the new Leica "larger than 35mm sensor" I mean), and in my mind, it will likely be a good selection of lenses in a timely manner that will make or break the format.
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Leica tries to act like it's Medium Format by simply copying the pricing model:
http://tinyurl.com/5nnx2c (http://tinyurl.com/5nnx2c)
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Leica tries to act like it's Medium Format by simply copying the pricing model:
http://tinyurl.com/5nnx2c (http://tinyurl.com/5nnx2c)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220881\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leica went a little crazy ....
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Plz Canon just give me a GOOD 28-70...
They did... they just labelled it a "24-70"...
If you don't use it at the 24mm setting, it's a pretty decent lens (although it isn't remotely comparable to the Nikon 24-70).
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They did... they just labelled it a "24-70"...
If you don't use it at the 24mm setting, it's a pretty decent lens (although it isn't remotely comparable to the Nikon 24-70).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221040\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I didn't realise the nikon 24-70 was so good. I really wish someone would make a good AF 28mm prime for either nikon or canon, it would have me changing systems. Hey, while were at it, give me a new 5D with hardly any AA filter, a slightly thicker file, at least 16MP and a great sharp 28mm AF prime and I'd be pretty happy. Fingers crossed for Photokina.
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I didn't realise the nikon 24-70 was so good. I really wish someone would make a good AF 28mm prime for either nikon or canon, it would have me changing systems. Hey, while were at it, give me a new 5D with hardly any AA filter, a slightly thicker file, at least 16MP and a great sharp 28mm AF prime and I'd be pretty happy. Fingers crossed for Photokina.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Nikon zoom Lens is off the scale sharp. I loathe zooms but I bought their last two. If there new primes are even close then they will have something.
JR
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The Nikon zoom Lens is off the scale sharp. I loathe zooms but I bought their last two. If there new primes are even close then they will have something.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hate zooms too, big heavy things, if I want to shoot wide, I get a wide lens, I don't suddenly change my mind mid shot. If they took all that fancy tech they put into making good zooms into primes they could do something outstanding I'm sure. Anyone know who's promising new primes?
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the canon 28mm 1.8 usm is really sharp, at least the copy I had was....
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the canon 28mm 1.8 usm is really sharp, at least the copy I had was....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221088\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My Leica 28/2.0 and 24/2.8 are very sharp wide-open.
But they sit on a M8 rangefinder...
Peter
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Leica made a pre-Photokina announcement to clear up some rumours:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/vbcms.php?ar...m_medium=E-Mail (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/vbcms.php?area=vbcmsarea_content&contentid=6&langid=2&utm_source=Newsletter2008-13-EN&utm_medium=E-Mail)
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Yes. The finder goes dark.
That's what I meant by PITA Factor.
Imagine shooting people with that lens: Shoot; open lens; refocus; hope they don't move; stop back down; shoot.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=215563\")
New Zeiss ZE:
[a href=\"http://tinyurl.com/5hjtcf]http://tinyurl.com/5hjtcf[/url]
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New Zeiss ZE:
http://tinyurl.com/5hjtcf (http://tinyurl.com/5hjtcf)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Looks like the Little D-Lux 4 has an on shoe flash now... Nice.. Always wondered why they did not have that like the G9..:+}
The M8.2 looks quite nice also..:+]
Snook
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Leica M8.2 @ http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091503leica_m82.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091503leica_m82.asp)
for US $6,054 (though who knows where tomorrow the value of US$ is).
and Leica D-Lux4 @ US$ 1,054. Leica C-Lux3 @ US$750. both @
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091502...dlux4_clux3.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091502leica_dlux4_clux3.asp)
Rather expensive IMHO.
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You mean this evening!
Thierry
... though who knows where tomorrow the value of US$ is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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You mean this evening!
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221546\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am in US so the simple answer would be - - -
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Leica M8.2 @ http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091503leica_m82.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091503leica_m82.asp)
for US $6,054 (though who knows where tomorrow the value of US$ is).
and Leica D-Lux4 @ US$ 1,054. Leica C-Lux3 @ US$750. both @
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091502...dlux4_clux3.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091502leica_dlux4_clux3.asp)
Rather expensive IMHO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1,000$ for the D-Lux 4 jeeeeeeez!! Looks like I will have to buy the panasonic,which is the same...:+{
Did they Bump up the megapixel for the M8.2? Did not see it anywhere. Hopefully they did.
Snook
Might follow Paul Schefz and go the 1DsMIII/M8.2 route...:+}
If mamiya/ phase do not come out with some kind of leafshutter I will probably jump ship here soon and go back to DSLR's....
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1,000$ for the D-Lux 4 jeeeeeeez!! Looks like I will have to buy the panasonic,which is the same ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And the debate has already begun in other forums: what differences are there between the Panasonic LX3 an the Leica Digilux 4 to justify the roughly 45% Leica price premium? Since lens quality is the main Leica virtue that I know of and the LX3 seems to have exactly the same Leica lens (along with same Panasonic sensor), I see no practical advantage, but I am open to insights!
Maybe James Russell needs to extend his "upgrade sticker" product line to include red dots!
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That's what I understood/meant, Sean: until this evening in the US there is a long way to go, for the US$.
Best regards,
Thierry
I am in US so the simple answer would be - - -
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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These prices are getting out of hand - how on earth can a £800 (GBP) increase be justified for the M8.2 (current retail £3190, now £3990) - new shutter, new LCD protection, few tweaks to the firmware, new frame lines, a black dot instead of a white dot and no changes to the sensor? £6250 for the new Nocti?
Madness!
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These prices are getting out of hand - how on earth can a £800 (GBP) increase be justified for the M8.2 (current retail £3190, now £3990) - new shutter, new LCD protection, few tweaks to the firmware, new frame lines, a black dot instead of a white dot and no changes to the sensor? £6250 for the new Nocti?
Madness!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If Leica wants this kind of money, they need to improve their quality control. I have one lens in for focus adjustment (and it's not slight it's about 3 feet in back focus) and they have had it for months.
I love the little m-8, and in spite of it's quirkiness on wb when used right it does produce a very nice file.
Given that, I would never go out and travel the world with just one or two bodies, I'd want three minimum because it just doesn't seem that robust.
£4,000 for a new m8 does seem high and since they are all over new york in demo and slightly used for $4,000 dollars I think I'd take one step back and go with the original.
For the lenses, look at Zeiss, because even though the Leica lenses are like holding little jewels the price is shocking.
JR
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If Leica wants this kind of money, they need to improve their quality control. I have one lens in for focus adjustment (and it's not slight it's about 3 feet in back focus) and they have had it for months.
I love the little m-8, and in spite of it's quirkiness on wb when used right it does produce a very nice file.
Given that, I would never go out and travel the world with just one or two bodies, I'd want three minimum because it just doesn't seem that robust.
£4,000 for a new m8 does seem high and since they are all over new york in demo and slightly used for $4,000 dollars I think I'd take one step back and go with the original.
For the lenses, look at Zeiss, because even though the Leica lenses are like holding little jewels the price is shocking.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, they have new line of lens out...amazing in every aspect.
(1). World’s fastest asphercial lens, the NOCTILUX-M 50 mm f/0.95 ASPH. @ US$11,232.00
(2). SUMMILUX-M 21 mm f / 1.4 ASPH @ US$ 7125.
(3). SUMMILUX-M 24 mm f / 1.4 ASPH @ US$ 7125.
(4). Elmar-M 24 MM F / 3.8 ASPH Lens @ US$2464.
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If Leica wants this kind of money, they need to improve their quality control. I have one lens in for focus adjustment (and it's not slight it's about 3 feet in back focus) and they have had it for months.
I love the little m-8, and in spite of it's quirkiness on wb when used right it does produce a very nice file.
Given that, I would never go out and travel the world with just one or two bodies, I'd want three minimum because it just doesn't seem that robust.
£4,000 for a new m8 does seem high and since they are all over new york in demo and slightly used for $4,000 dollars I think I'd take one step back and go with the original.
For the lenses, look at Zeiss, because even though the Leica lenses are like holding little jewels the price is shocking.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I never even shot a M8 but did hear several people wanting a little more megapixel in it and they did not change that at all apparently...
Why would that be...:+}
To bad there is not way of switching out sensors... that way buying the camera would not hurt so bad, but having to upgrade to a whole new camera all the time stinks.. would be great to have an M8 and you could just get the sensor swapped out when needed...:+]
I have the D-lux 3 and paid a little more than the Panasonic price b/c I wanted the red dot, but no way would I pay 1000 for it.
Apparently after reading around the Panasonic (L3) ,which is the same thing, seems to be quite the little Pocket camera, even beating out the Fuji series "supposedly".
The panasonic even makes an off camera flash which is also much cheaper than the leica and also the same...
I find it strange that a lot of people are wanting high sync with flash but no one seems to be changing that. I thought canon would have tried to change it but apparently it is not possible with CMOS sensors?
I remember that the CCD sensor that one of the first canons had, did sync at 500/th...:+]
Is Leaf going to be the only option for shooting highsync with flash... Even my RZ is only 400/th and not good for a lot of moveemnt type shot's for me..
Well maybe all for another thread..
Thanks
Snook
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I find it strange that a lot of people are wanting high sync with flash but no one seems to be changing that. I thought canon would have tried to change it but apparently it is not possible with CMOS sensors?
It's a problem associated with a large focal plane shutter, not the sensor.
Is Leaf going to be the only option for shooting highsync with flash...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221576\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well there is Sinar's Hy6 too, and of course you could use a Rollei 6008 with a Sinar or Hasselblad back, or even the Phase One P20 and some other Phase backs. All these make 1/1000 sync possible. The Hasselblad H series offers 1/800 too.
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It's a problem associated with a large focal plane shutter, not the sensor.
Well there is Sinar's Hy6 too, and of course you could use a Rollei 6008 with a Sinar or Hasselblad back, or even the Phase One P20 and some other Phase backs. All these make 1/1000 sync possible. The Hasselblad H series offers 1/800 too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are correct.. sorry I forgot about Hassleblad and Sinar...
Thanks
Snook
PS. Just a little frustrated as I already have Mamiya and Phase P30 and there seems to be no option there so far...
My Phase dealer seems to think they are going to announce the leafshutter lens here in Photokina..
I am sure the pricing will be real cheap so I can dig further into the bank account with no return on the money...at-least where I am at there is no return:+{
Snook
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To bad there is not way of switching out sensors...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221576\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There are a lot of rumors about Leica.
One is the next upgrade will be to send your camera in for more than just a new lcd cover but a new sensor that might be full frame.
Whether that is true or not I don't know, but I like the idea of keeping the same camera and just upgrading it.
As far as the Leica slr everyone says that will eventually happen. Now if it happends in a Leica time frame or Canon time frame is another question that none of us can answer, though it does sound interesting.
Anway in regards to the M8 I hope the next sensor has higher iso, as anything over 400 on the leica is pretty noisy. It works but it looks like a snowstorm, though snowstorms can be pretty.
Still, you would think that the Leica which is really thought of as a PJ's camera would have higher iso capabilties.
Maybe the next one will.
JR
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Well, you can pay $9000 and gain 4 or so stops
And the depth of field of a razor blade.
Edmund
There are a lot of rumors about Leica.
One is the next upgrade will be to send your camera in for more than just a new lcd cover but a new sensor that might be full frame.
Whether that is true or not I don't know, but I like the idea of keeping the same camera and just upgrading it.
As far as the Leica slr everyone says that will eventually happen. Now if it happends in a Leica time frame or Canon time frame is another question that none of us can answer, though it does sound interesting.
Anway in regards to the M8 I hope the next sensor has higher iso, as anything over 400 on the leica is pretty noisy. It works but it looks like a snowstorm, though snowstorms can be pretty.
Still, you would think that the Leica which is really thought of as a PJ's camera would have higher iso capabilties.
Maybe the next one will.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I hate zooms too, big heavy things, if I want to shoot wide, I get a wide lens, I don't suddenly change my mind mid shot. If they took all that fancy tech they put into making good zooms into primes they could do something outstanding I'm sure. Anyone know who's promising new primes?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221080\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Zeis ZF 28/2.0 is very high on my list (I already own most of the others). It is now also (directly) available in Canon mount. These are small and very well built lenses but manual focus.
The Nikkor 28/1.4 also seems a very good lens but discontinued and currently only available for obscene prices. Might be nice when this comes as an AFS VR version. Nikons 1.4 lenses are long overdue for an update and would be a nice add-on for D3 & D700 users.
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It's the shutter. Nikon D3 and D700 has a synce speed of 1/320th, which I think is the fastest among focal plane shutters.(And for this kind of synce speed we have to use better strobes like pro7 series or we'll have faded line in bottom of the image)
I find it strange that a lot of people are wanting high sync with flash but no one seems to be changing that. I thought canon would have tried to change it but apparently it is not possible with CMOS sensors?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221576\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It's the shutter. Nikon D3 and D700 has a synce speed of 1/320th, which I think is the fastest among focal plane shutters.
that title belongs to the nikon d70, d50
and d40 with sync speed up to 1/500th.
(the two cameras you mentioned officially
sync up to 1/250th. though some have
successfully pushed them to 1/320th.)
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Together with the D1 & D1x which also do 1/500th. A pity Nikon wasn't able to pull that off with the D3,D300 & D700.
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I may be wrong, but I think the D1x had an electronic shutter - the mechanical shutter was used at a fixed speed above a certain speed.
Edmund
Together with the D1 & D1x which also do 1/500th. A pity Nikon wasn't able to pull that off with the D3,D300 & D700.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221686\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Can be but I used to have one which I could perfectly use at 1/500th with all sorts of strobes.
Later lines like the D200 could only sync at 1/250th and had an electronic gimmick to be able to shoot with much faster speeds (up to 1/8000th'ish I believe) together with several of the Nikon system flashes (SB800 & SB600 but probably with the SB900 as well). They call it FP (Focal plane) flashing. Maybe you are thinking about these?
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you are quite right about the d1 line-up (including the H).
and not only that (to further diverge from the OT) they
also supported a top speed to 1/16000.
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oh I really didn't know that...should be that they are aps-c format so the shutter is much smaller.
1/320th synce speed doesnt need a push, just the triggering time should be short enough(use sync cord instead of wireless trigger, or su4 mode from on camera flash) and the flash duration should be short enough( my test is that it needs a less than 1/1000sec duration,t01)
that title belongs to the nikon d70, d50
and d40 with sync speed up to 1/500th.
(the two cameras you mentioned officially
sync up to 1/250th. though some have
successfully pushed them to 1/320th.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221677\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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the shutter size is different. Full Frame shutter is bigger than aps-c's, I don't expect FF camera to have a 1/500th sync speed like I wont expect MF has a 1/250th sync speed(do they?).
Can be but I used to have one which I could perfectly use at 1/500th with all sorts of strobes.
Later lines like the D200 could only sync at 1/250th and had an electronic gimmick to be able to shoot with much faster speeds (up to 1/8000th'ish I believe) together with several of the Nikon system flashes (SB800 & SB600 but probably with the SB900 as well). They call it FP (Focal plane) flashing. Maybe you are thinking about these?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221696\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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One thing i like about my old Leica M6 is that it aged with charm. there is a beautiful patina to it, all made by my working with it. if it would be digital, i'd love to have the electronics updated every two years or so, but the appearance should be kept. a camera for life, electronics for now....
I have a nice serial number too, which i am sure helps me a lot in making better pictures and makes me a happier photographer and makes the sun shine brighter
why is the only camera i ever cared for the Leica m6? all other cameras are just tools...
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that title belongs to the nikon d70, d50 and d40 with sync speed up to 1/500th.
(the two cameras you mentioned officially sync up to 1/250th. though some have
successfully pushed them to 1/320th.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221677\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That 1/500s sync uses electronic shuttering, possible on the first generation older Sony 6MP CCD, but not on any of the newer SLR sensors, either CCD or CMOS. Entry level models like the D40 clearly do not have FP shutters capable of moving at that speed.
The Olympus E-1 also syncs in practice to about 1/320th with non-dedicated flash units, though again the official spec. is lower. Smaller formats have some natural advantage in this respect: look at the low maximum sync. speed of MF bodies that rely on FP shutters.
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There are a lot of rumors about Leica.
One is the next upgrade will be to send your camera in for more than just a new lcd cover but a new sensor that might be full frame.
Whether that is true or not I don't know, but I like the idea of keeping the same camera and just upgrading it.
As far as the Leica slr everyone says that will eventually happen. Now if it happends in a Leica time frame or Canon time frame is another question that none of us can answer, though it does sound interesting.
Anway in regards to the M8 I hope the next sensor has higher iso, as anything over 400 on the leica is pretty noisy. It works but it looks like a snowstorm, though snowstorms can be pretty.
Still, you would think that the Leica which is really thought of as a PJ's camera would have higher iso capabilties.
Maybe the next one will.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think leica is about to reveal a new reflex option for us who work in medium format.. and I say option because one camera platform just doesn't cut it for most of us, and as much as I like the files of my bigger mf cameras I am looking forward to having something smaller yet able to produce great full spread ads..cropping allowed, bleed accounted for..and yes iso 800..
again, this might be wishful thinking but one can hope.
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got an email today from german dealer network pcp with an invitation to leicas booth @ photokin, where they will show their newest secret weapon, codename Afrika (no kiddin')
it's supposed to be something totally new, new camera, new lenses, saviour of all our lost souls. unfortunately no specs or nothing.
so just a week and we all will know more...
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codename is AFRika, some are suggesting A Fullframe R
I had a invitation in the mail some days ago. There was a VIP-Pass attached and it had a picture of the camera on it....
Looks like a normal 35mm digital to me....but we will see
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got an email today from german dealer network pcp with an invitation to leicas booth @ photokin, where they will show their newest secret weapon, codename Afrika (no kiddin')
it's supposed to be something totally new, new camera, new lenses, saviour of all our lost souls. unfortunately no specs or nothing.
so just a week and we all will know more...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This would explain why the M8.2 is such a poor example of updating and improving a camera. They are spending all of their time and money on this new camera.
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why is the only camera i ever cared for the Leica m6? all other cameras are just tools...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221731\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That, of course, is something YOU should be able to tell US!
Rob C
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Leica will be reporting live on this special forum from Photokina starting Monday evening 19.00 at Photokina, about the as yet unnanounced product news :
http://tinyurl.com/4bqj7e (http://tinyurl.com/4bqj7e)
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The Leica Digital Forum has a link to flickr photo page that shows the new Leica S system.
37 megapixels
30x45 mm sensor
weatherproof seals
autofocus faster than Hassey
9 focal plane and leaf shutter lenses, including 24mm and 30mm tilt shift
records in DNG format
size between Canon 5D and EOS 1DS MK III
The technology from the S system will trickle down to other Leica systems. "The R is far from dead."
If this is all true, (if not someone went to alot of trouble) I hope this works for Leica. Seems like a big gamble. I think I still want a Sinar with WLF.
Best,
Mitchell
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The Leica Digital Forum has a link to flickr photo page that shows the new Leica S system.
37 megapixels
30x45 mm sensor
weatherproof seals
autofocus faster than Hassey
9 focal plane and leaf shutter lenses, including 24mm and 30mm tilt shift
records in DNG format
size between Canon 5D and EOS 1DS MK III
The technology from the S system will trickle down to other Leica systems. "The R is far from dead."
If this is all true, (if not someone went to alot of trouble) I hope this works for Leica. Seems like a big gamble. I think I still want a Sinar with WLF.
Best,
Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I want it I want it I want it.
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anybody say "Contax replacement?"
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/29782425@N08/...015170/sizes/l/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29782425@N08/2879015170/sizes/l/)
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Wow! Looking good! Wonder what it will cost?
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Wow! Looking good! Wonder what it will cost?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
on the leica forum some suggest 30.000 euro
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on the leica forum some suggest 30.000 euro
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223247\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah but who would buy it at that price and still have to buy a whole set of lenses. I'm hoping the price is more competitive with other digital backs.
Very curious to know about the ISO performance and AF. Really hoping the AF has more than 3 points too.
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http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/22/leica-d...ship-s2-camera/ (http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/22/leica-debuts-s-system-37-megapixel-flagship-s2-camera/)
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Yeah but who would buy it at that price and still have to buy a whole set of lenses. I'm hoping the price is more competitive with other digital backs.
Very curious to know about the ISO performance and AF. Really hoping the AF has more than 3 points too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223253\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
30.000 euro. by the time leica releases this camera and all the lenses, canon or nikon will have a camera that is 50megapixels shoots holographic video is powered by hydrogen cells and costs 3.000 euro.
you have to smile about the hasselblad quote. is hasselblad the benchmark.
you have to smile that leica talked to photographers. i wonder if they talked about price.
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30.000 euro. by the time leica releases this camera and all the lenses, canon or nikon will have a camera that is 50megapixels shoots holographic video is powered by hydrogen cells and costs 3.000 euro.
you have to smile about the hasselblad quote. is hasselblad the benchmark.
you have to smile that leica talked to photographers. i wonder if they talked about price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223257\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well I'm sure that the 30,000 euro figure was presented by some fanboy who is only guessing. Let's wait to see what Leica announces tonight.
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Well I'm sure that the 30,000 euro figure was presented by some fanboy who is only guessing. Let's wait to see what Leica announces tonight.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223259\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Give us the thing for around 15.000 and we can talk. ;-)
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Some first rumors talked about a price slightly above 10.000 euros. If Leica intend to position this new system between MFD and 35FF something far from 10.000-15.000 euros is out of the question. But, we're talking about Leica so you never know... Best news for me is: "The R system is far from dead". Great.
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shame its in 2:3 format, most MF pros are using 3:4 ratio, and no publication format fits 2:3, so they're going against the trend there. I hesitate to say its a legacy carry-over to match their traditional format, but could be regarded that way.
a 60mp Phase P65+ or 50mp H3 Hassie, in 3:4, is a lot bigger usable file than 37mp cropped down to ~33Mp in real world use. That's close to double in the P65 case - and double is a big difference, if it costs the same.
Great to see an MF sensor in what was 35mm packing though - we have lacked choice in the market place, so its very welcome
as will be the response Canon makes - I doubt for a second they will come back hard on this.
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There will be an official Leica live feed broadcast to this thread, starting in one hour from now:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...okina-news.html (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/photokina-live-ticker/63999-more-leica-photokina-news.html)
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Give us the thing for around 15.000 and we can talk. ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223261\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm bored with this more megapixel stuff. It's fine, allows an art director more cropping, or maybe the retoucher a little more data to work with, but there is nothing that amazing by this camera, other than it has a Leica logo.
I'm sure the lenses will be sharp and the build quality will be excellent, but if the m8 is any indication the lenses will need calibration and it will be 5 firmware updates until they get the color right.
But to be fair, I and others should wait to see what the official announcement is.
I spoke to a camera retailer the other day on a lighting purchase and mentioned the new announcements coming out at photokina. The salesperson said it's a shame that all of these cameras are so expensive, but what can a photographer do, their clients demand the very biggest and very best.
Well, I was kind of taken back by that because it's been three years since any client has asked me the file size or type of camera I use and even then by the time I explained it was obvious they really weren't that concerned.
So I asked the sales person, name me the client that demands more megapixels and she kind of stopped and said, well, uh I've heard it from a lot of photographers.
Well, I've heard that the moon is made of cheese but that doesn't make it so.
I'm not really dissing this camera and in a strange nostalgic way I hope it has success, but in reality, just reading that flicker announcement I don't see what this camera really does that is any different than what we presently have.
But, if Lecia is gong to have success with this camera, they need to hit a decent price point and most importantly they need to meet all of their delivery deadlines on lenses and software because if they don't it will just become an interesting footnote.
JR
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I'm bored with this more megapixel stuff. It's fine, allows an art director more cropping, or maybe the retoucher a little more data to work with, but there is nothing that amazing by this camera, other than it has a Leica logo.
I'm sure the lenses will be sharp and the build quality will be excellent, but if the m8 is any indication the lenses will need calibration and it will be 5 firmware updates until they get the color right.
But to be fair, I and others should wait to see what the official announcement is.
I spoke to a camera retailer the other day on a lighting purchase and mentioned the new announcements coming out at photokina. The salesperson said it's a shame that all of these cameras are so expensive, but what can a photographer do, their clients demand the very biggest and very best.
Well, I was kind of taken back by that because it's been three years since any client has asked me the file size or type of camera I use and even then by the time I explained it was obvious they really weren't that concerned.
So I asked the sales person, name me the client that demands more megapixels and she kind of stopped and said, well, uh I've heard it from a lot of photographers.
Well, I've heard that the moon is made of cheese but that doesn't make it so.
I'm not really dissing this camera and in a strange nostalgic way I hope it has success, but in reality, just reading that flicker announcement I don't see what this camera really does that is any different than what we presently have.
But, if Lecia is gong to have success with this camera, they need to hit a decent price point and most importantly they need to meet all of their delivery deadlines on lenses and software because if they don't it will just become an interesting footnote.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes I wish Leica success, but I'm not so sure anymore. In a way I can't believe they really can pull something like that off. After the m8 disaster. (Yes I have one myself...) If this camera would come to the market with a price around 10.000 it could be a success, as long as the rest holds together. Nobody will buy in such a system if the camera costs 20.000 and every lens is around additional 3000-4000. If that's the case we could already buy Leaf, Sinar or Phase One.
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The DMR was a bit more stable than the M8 was on launch at least IMHO - certainly I have not had any trouble with mine and even though people bitched about firmware upgrades it worked fine with the first version and just got better with the upgrades. I did have a problem with my R8 body but then that was used and like 15yrs old. What I hated and I almost dumped Leica over was the 3 month wait to have the R8 serviced for just a shutter problem. That's totally inexcusable. Whatever Leica does, their service system needs a huge overhaul. Professionals who depend on their gear simply can not wait like that. I hope Dr. Kaufmann addresses the service issue in his announcement today.
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if this is the "S2" what was the "S1" ?
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Here you have the first picture of the new camera:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29782425@N08/...015170/sizes/l/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29782425@N08/2879015170/sizes/l/)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2879015170_5d7144edda_b.jpg)
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if this is the "S2" what was the "S1" ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223278\")
[a href=\"http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00GqzV]http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00GqzV[/url]
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I'm sure the lenses will be sharp and the build quality will be excellent, but if the m8 is any indication the lenses will need calibration and it will be 5 firmware updates until they get the color right.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The DMR must be the reference for this new camera. Except in terms of high ISO performance its archives are still slightly better than the M8 ones. If Leica can make a 35mm size camera with a bigger sensor, an image quality one or two steps above that of the DMR (specially in what is low light performance) and a good set of lenses at a reasonable high price they'll have something. Not something revolutionary but something interesting for a lot of photographers.
I'm curious about the AF because this is something new for Leica (in a pro camera)... Of course I don't expect a D3 AFperformance level but something faster than actual MF and with more than one focus point could make some difference.
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Pricing is RUMORED at Euro 25-30,000
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Very high image quality (i.e. mf d.b.) in a portable body + lens combo is a great addition to the tools available to us but there does come a price point, especially in the current economic climate, where you want the high expense to be more flexible..i.e. usable both as dslr and on a shift camera, as almost all medium format solution currently offer.
The current all in one 35mm dslr solutions work in tandem very well with mfdb's due not only to what they can do but their lower price grouping.
Tying such expense into one system that removes the flexibility of a digital back may or may not be a winner for many.
That said, it can also be seen as a digital version of say a medium format rangefinder such as the mamiya 7 camera..not because it's a rangefinder because of course it isn't, but due to higher than 35mm format image quality in a very portable fairly simple package with exceptional glass.
that said its all still rumour of course!
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Pricing is RUMORED at Euro 25-30,000
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, yes if that is true they don't really have to announce it. There are far better products in this price range.
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Well, yes if that is true they don't really have to announce it. There are far better products in this price range.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223289\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I bet the Contax guys are going tobe really unhappy if this takes off. All they needed to do was put the Contax back in production.
Edmund
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I bet the Contax guys are going tobe really unhappy if this takes off. All they needed to do was put the Contax back in production.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223295\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Did the Contax ever have a tilt/shift lens? An ultrawide? This system is a hybrid between focal plane shutter and leaf shutters, which solves the biggest flaw with the Contax system - the very slow flash sync. I suppose Contax could have developed the same way. Blame Kyocera!
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Well, yes if that is true they don't really have to announce it. There are far better products in this price range.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223289\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
agreed - apart from seriously wealthy hobbyists, it wont fly at the same price as an H3 or Phase P45+, which are proven pro workhorses, with higher resolution bullet proof backs and good software workflows, all up and running right now.
if they can come in between US$15-25,000 for camera with standard lens, they might get enough market share.
I'd price the basic outfit well, and then look to make higher margin on the lenses, as everyone's going to buy a couple of those.
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Did the Contax ever have a tilt/shift lens? An ultrawide? This system is a hybrid between focal plane shutter and leaf shutters, which solves the biggest flaw with the Contax system - the very slow flash sync. I suppose Contax could have developed the same way. Blame Kyocera!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wasn't it you that said they could not make 35mm leaf shutter lens.. And why would they..
I guess this makes my point!!!
Why wouldn't they , has always been my point
Snook
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Sorry, everyone, it seems the news feed is on a new thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...nt-22-09-a.html (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/photokina-live-ticker/64252-live-ticker-vip-event-22-09-a.html)
Wasn't it you that said they could not make 35mm leaf shutter lens
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, it was me who said Canon would need to revise the EOS mount to introduce leaf shutter lenses. Leica seems to have gone autofocus, larger format and leaf-shutter at the same time, so it was time for a new mount and then they can support every possible feature they need.
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what is the foto-z referee guy gonna do now? is this camera 35 or MF? he's in a quandry huh?
and reichmann now has to create a new category called "35 looking, but 120 shooting", next to the ComboCam category?
all this just a bunch of buzz to get in the way of critical thinking and image making.
and with this economy, there couldn't be worse time to ask three or four grand for a normal lens. they just missed the boat; too much, too late.
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what is the foto-z referee guy gonna do now? is this camera 35 or MF? he's in a quandry huh?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why would this be a 35mm camera? We clearly have a new medium format contender, and that doesn't happen every day!
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I bet the Contax guys are going tobe really unhappy if this takes off. All they needed to do was put the Contax back in production.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223295\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nobody is going to be upset.
Especially me because not only do my Contax's still work fine, but they have paid for themselves many times over.
The thing is before anyone drops 30, 40, 50 k on a new system there needs to be some clarity.
Everyone gave Phase a ration of trouble for their roadmap, but it was a good idea as long as they lived to the promises and deadlines.
Let's face it, adding or switching a system is expensive and takes a learning curve which takes time which isalso expensive.
Before anyone makes that investment, a company like Rollei, Phase, Leica or Leaf should make it clear they are in this for the long haul and what is promised will be delivered.
Same with service. My Phase backs have never gone down, but I wonder if they can be fixed in a day like MAC does with LOA.
Consequently one of my Leica lenses has been in repair for about 3 months.
The financial events of the last few days make it clear that even the largest of companies can disappear and I doubt if any government would ever bail our a camera company.
JR
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Why would this be a 35mm camera? We clearly have a new medium format contender, and that doesn't happen every day!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223304\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You really think this is medium format . . . why because the hole in the back of the camera is bigger than a 35mm?
I think I would call that miniature medium format.
There are a lot of people that don't believe 645 is medium format and in fact except for the new soon to be announced phase pee sixty five plus none of the "medium format backs really qualify as medium format, even the puny 645 format.
JR
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You really think this is medium format . . . why because the hole in the back of the camera is bigger than a 35mm?
I think I would call that miniature medium format.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223308\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd put it in the same category as a Phase P30, P18, Sinar 65, Hasselbald 31MP, etc as the sensor is about the same size. Your call.
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what is the foto-z referee guy gonna do now? is this camera 35 or MF? he's in a quandry huh?
and reichmann now has to create a new category called "35 looking, but 120 shooting", next to the ComboCam category?
all this just a bunch of buzz to get in the way of critical thinking and image making.
and with this economy, there couldn't be worse time to ask three or four grand for a normal lens. they just missed the boat; too much, too late.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Your absolutely right...
I would like to meet the bonehead who would spend that much money on this camera..
I know there out there. But they must have a whole lot of extra $$$ lay around.
I am acutally thinking about going back to 35mm....:+}
Where I live they just do not appreciate MF and I could do with out the cost and hassle..
Anybody looking for a P30 /RZII/AFDII set up... check out the For Sale section here soon...
Snook
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I'd put it in the same category as a Phase P30, P18, Sinar 65, Hasselbald 31MP, etc as the sensor is about the same size. Your call.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Miniature medium format.
At least the camera part isn't too big for the digital part.
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Nobody is going to be upset.
Especially me because not only do my Contax's still work fine, but they have paid for themselves many times over.
The thing is before anyone drops 30, 40, 50 k on a new system there needs to be some clarity.
Everyone gave Phase a ration of trouble for their roadmap, but it was a good idea as long as they lived to the promises and deadlines.
Let's face it, adding or switching a system is expensive and takes a learning curve which takes time which isalso expensive.
Before anyone makes that investment, a company like Rollei, Phase, Leica or Leaf should make it clear they are in this for the long haul and what is promised will be delivered.
Same with service. My Phase backs have never gone down, but I wonder if they can be fixed in a day like MAC does with LOA.
Consequently one of my Leica lenses has been in repair for about 3 months.
The financial events of the last few days make it clear that even the largest of companies can disappear and I doubt if any government would ever bail our a camera company.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223305\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't upset either. I am still using the same Contax 645 body when it first became available and with a P45+ and two more bodies, I am still happy to continue to use it. My Phase or H3D system are of higher resolution than my 1Ds MK3 and M8 but it does not limit me to use the lower resolution system even for work. It is just right tool for right job. The photography is always about the photographer, and he choose his tool, not about the camera itself. Although I believe we all love our cameras.
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Nobody is going to be upset.
Especially me because not only do my Contax's still work fine, but they have paid for themselves many times over.
The thing is before anyone drops 30, 40, 50 k on a new system there needs to be some clarity.
Everyone gave Phase a ration of trouble for their roadmap, but it was a good idea as long as they lived to the promises and deadlines.
Let's face it, adding or switching a system is expensive and takes a learning curve which takes time which isalso expensive.
Before anyone makes that investment, a company like Rollei, Phase, Leica or Leaf should make it clear they are in this for the long haul and what is promised will be delivered.
Same with service. My Phase backs have never gone down, but I wonder if they can be fixed in a day like MAC does with LOA.
Consequently one of my Leica lenses has been in repair for about 3 months.
The financial events of the last few days make it clear that even the largest of companies can disappear and I doubt if any government would ever bail our a camera company.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223305\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry, James, I meant the guys who made the Contax
Edmund
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The shortcoming of all the 35mm DSLR is the limited DR.
The Leica should have the DR of an MF sensor but with the limited high ISO.
Not too bad IMHO. Lets see what lenses they offer.
It would be the easiest to handle camera with a high-DR sensor (execpt Digiflex).
Bernd
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The shortcoming of all the 35mm DSLR is the limited DR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Small correction - that's really a limit of the photosite size, not the size of the whole sensor (or format).
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The shortcoming of all the 35mm DSLR is the limited DR.
The Leica should have the DR of an MF sensor but with the limited high ISO.
Not too bad IMHO. Lets see what lenses they offer.
It would be the easiest to handle camera with a high-DR sensor (execpt Digiflex).
Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If that is so why are many raving about the DR of the 1DsMIII?
I thought 14 bit was a big difference from the 1DsMII??
Just asking as I have no idea and go by what I have read here. I have never even seen a file from the 1DsMIII.
I am thinking about down stepping back to 35mm as many of my clients just don't appreciate the MF as much as I do..:+} and the cost are obviosly much lower for 35mm.
James seems to be loving his 1DsMIII.
I wonder James how often are yougrabbing tha Contax these days?
what percent of your work is seeing the 35mm these days.
I just looked at some of the 5DII images and the High ISO looks pretty friggin amazing I must say.
All the guys complaining or feeling they got robbed buying the 1DsMIII after the 5DII came out are saying yeh well it shoots slower the AF points are the same as the lcd 5D etc... Well thye have not obviuosly shot MF I take it. the AF is a joke compared to anything else..
I am a retoucher and I notice the differnce bewtween the P30 and the Canon, but is it worth it when half the people in the business print like shit or ruin the image after going through so many hands anyways. I have had many cleints destroy my images and in the end, not so sure I see the differnce in "print" re: BillBoards, magazines and such.
What do you think James?
Snook
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As long as you have the sun in your back (=behind you) there are no problems.
When scenes are lit a bit more complicated the way the transition to zones that are out of DR are rendered with a DSLR are just ugly. I hate it.
MF digital made me abandon analog and scanning. Canon wouldn´t have given me what I wanted.
Just my opinion. Buy Canons if you like. You´ve done your job already whilst I´m still mounting my H3D onto the tripod. For me it is worth the effort.
Bernd
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Your absolutely right...
I would like to meet the bonehead who would spend that much money on this camera..
I know there out there. But they must have a whole lot of extra $$$ lay around.
I am acutally thinking about going back to 35mm....:+}
Where I live they just do not appreciate MF and I could do with out the cost and hassle..
Anybody looking for a P30 /RZII/AFDII set up... check out the For Sale section here soon...
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223314\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Small, light, good af, sharp lenses (hopefully at wide angle, we'll see) a good screen. Sounds great to me. I really dislike holding a medium format camera compared to the canons. (Unfortunately I dislike the image quality of the canons to a greater degree)
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Latest from news feed:
"Strategic Partnership with Phase One
Alliance in development and distribution of Leica products"
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A very exciting camera so far. Okay now I want to know:
ISO range
Price
Date available
Details on the sensor used
Viewfinder details
Info on lens mount (are any other lenses compatible via adapters)
Does it have live view or movie capability
What's the maximum sync speed on the leaf lenses
And I want to see some sample images!
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Latest from news feed:
"Strategic Partnership with Phase One
Alliance in development and distribution of Leica products"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223339\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not much detail there. And the main question: WHEN WILL IT BE SHIPPING ?
The Hy6 was shown at Photokina 2006, but has only been really viable for the past few months.
Edmund
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We will be posting more details about all of the announcements from Photokina soon. If you want a quick peek, take a look at our web site:
http://www.captureintegration.com/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Nothing to do with this Leica camera. But why do hear so many photographers constantly complaining about dynamic range. Top photographers of the last century didn't seem to have too many issues with the 5 f-stop range of transparency film. I've never heard either of the Muench's complain when setting the standard for american color landscape photography.
Digital has so much dynamic range that I have to compress it via curves to get a file that looks exciting and I think most others do as well. I see so much HDR crap, the last thing we need is a sensor that makes that style even easier.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223324\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Right On!
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Anyone think the rumored large sensor Nikon system has any real truth to it? That could smother this Leica baby in the crib.
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Photokina News Snippets
Your first source of confirmed Photokina News. Live updates all week.
Phase One and Leica Form Strategic Alliance
The just-announced medium-format Leica S2 will feature sensor, software, and firmware developed by the experienced engineers of Phase One and will be distributed exclusively through Phase One channels. This promises the quality and sophistication of Leica with the engineering prowess and medium-format experience of Phase One.
Capture One 4.5 Pro Release Date set
We’ve had a chance to see the New 4.5 Pro and it is stellar. Release to the public will be October 15. Capture Integration will be hosting the countries first and finest seminars to introduce photographers and assistants to this new professional workflow software. We’ll also be testing it through and through to make sure our customers can put their trust in it.
Check back soon for seminar dates and feature details.
Further Details on the P65+
Aperture & Shutter control with P65+ when used with Phase One 645 and Capture One 4.5.
No need for a mask. What you see in the viewfinder is exactly what you get.
On-Screen Bubble Level for real-time horizon leveling
Two quad-core processors inside the back allow write speeds of up to 133 mb/sec
Sensor was designed and is owned by Phase One; Dalsa is only manufacturing it.
Higher Quality Live View with 4 times the refresh rate (now 5-7 fps
Pixel Binning unlike anything ever seen before. Allows variable resolution and good ISO 1600 performance.
Trade-in deal will be offered for any 22mp (or higher) digital back (including from the competition).
Details to come. Check back soon.
Lower Prices for P30+
The top selling 31 megapixel Phase One P30+ is seeing a price drop. Details soon.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Probably not as Leica has put out nothing but sub-par cameras of late.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not true at all. My M8 has worked impeccably. Great images and no glitches.
MAS
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curioser and curioser, said the white rabbit...
If Phase are getting involved, and at least providing the software solution, then what's up with Mamiya and the ZD, which I would say this is the only direct competitor for.
If Mamiya Phase are planning a ZD2, (which I hope they are) then why are the helping their nearest competitive product into the pro marketplace?
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Nothing to do with this Leica camera. But why do hear so many photographers constantly complaining about dynamic range. Top photographers of the last century didn't seem to have too many issues with the 5 f-stop range of transparency film. I've never heard either of the Muench's complain when setting the standard for american color landscape photography.
Digital has so much dynamic range that I have to compress it via curves to get a file that looks exciting and I think most others do as well. I see so much HDR crap, the last thing we need is a sensor that makes that style even easier.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223324\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
John,
I agree with you when one looks back at some of the incredible photos taken in the past without AF, electronic metering, easy transportation or even film labs to send off film to - hat's off to those guys!
But digital brings a different set of challenges - the recording is linear while film was non linear - so yes DR is important even after application of curves. Digital capture shows the apex of focus more clearly than film too - and well a bunch of stuff.
On top of that we all face the fact that with the internet and TV the world has been just totally saturated with imagery. This makes it hard to come up with something fresh, something people haven't already seen. For that reason I do understand why people use HDR techniques, though I personally find most of them too processed for my taste.
Eric
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Sure, there are lots of questions about price, concerns about reliability out of the gate, timing of actual delivery, etc., Maybe they will fall on their face, but personally I think Leica should be applauded. Who else in this space has thrown out the existing blueprint completely and invested the R&D dollars to develop from scratch a brand new professional format camera and a brand new line of lenses to match? I admire companies that think outside the box and invest serious R&D dollars to develop products that meet needs in the marketplace. No repackaging of someone else's sow's ear at four times the price.
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but personally I think Leica should be applauded.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223354\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree - they do seem to have gotten a lot of things right with this new camera. At least as far as we know now.
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finally something to break the stupid DSLR/MF mold...i hope we are done with these categories now for good...
this camera is looking better and better: the phase alliance makes a HUGE difference....we all know that capture/mpix is one thing, workflow and color a totally different animal....and i don't think leica would have managed to handle the whole package and make it work....
so we have a camera a little bigger then a 5D, with a very nice size sensor with more mpix i will ever need, with decend AF (i like the way they square it off against H, not canon)....the best digital know how in the market regarding workflow (phase one) and the best lenses available..ever...leica glass....
in order to mix up the market they have to sell it for 12000.....which won't happen mostly because leica wold not even be able to keep up with the orders for years....this is a family owned company after all.....
for 15000 this is still a steal...the Hy6, H31,...are 18000 and are bigger, heavier, slower and probably provide similar quality (bigger chips, less mpix)....BUT THEY ARE PROVEN
the inclusion of phase with this gives it a LOT of credibility IMO.....so it just comes down to price....
and really i am not concerned about the body at all....it is the lenses....a leica T/S 30mm? that has got to be at least 7-8000$....so a nice kit would probably be 20000 just for the lenses....
the m8 is a GREAT camera, but it took more then one year to get things right....and now it ROCKS....i never had any leica lens problems (other then making all other lenses look like s..t)...
too bad the 5DmkII is looking unbeatable and a total no-brainer for the money....
just shot a 10 page editorial with the dsIII (flash at 100 and available (no light really) up to 1600).....full double spreads, even at 1600 at 11x14, i don't see much grain (no noise ninja or such and i really expected to see more....) the camera just shoots and shoots....if the 5D is even better.....the only reason to go with ANYTHING else would be to provide the "dog and pony show" for the client who just does not want their stuff shot with a 2500 camera....
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Sure, there are lots of questions about price, concerns about reliability out of the gate, timing of actual delivery, etc., Maybe they will fall on their face, but personally I think Leica should be applauded. Who else in this space has thrown out the existing blueprint completely and invested the R&D dollars to develop from scratch a brand new professional format camera and a brand new line of lenses to match? I admire companies that think outside the box and invest serious R&D dollars to develop products that meet needs in the marketplace. No repackaging of someone else's sow's ear at four times the price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223354\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i agree completely...
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Sensor was designed and is owned by Phase One; Dalsa is only manufacturing it.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223349\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
interesting!
Pixel Binning unlike anything ever seen before. Allows variable resolution and good ISO 1600 performance.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223349\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
sounds amazing. ISO1600 at full resolution of 60MP or at half or fourth the resolution?
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Mamiya already annouced the ZDb with double buffer and nothing new otherwise. While the sensor is the same as an Aptus 22, the ZD back just comes up so short.
Now to this new Leica. I'm impressed!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leica could have done the best thing for a long time here. There are just two very important things that hopefully will be answered soon. The price and when it will ship.
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Oh yeh, CO V4.5 Pro OCtober 15, superb. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This year?
...scnr...
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Product pictures British Journal of Photography http://www.1854.eu/2008/09/leica_s2_13_pho...of_the_new.html (http://www.1854.eu/2008/09/leica_s2_13_photos_of_the_new.html)
Release summer 2009 http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=816234 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=816234)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Drool....
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Product pictures British Journal of Photography http://www.1854.eu/2008/09/leica_s2_13_pho...of_the_new.html (http://www.1854.eu/2008/09/leica_s2_13_photos_of_the_new.html)
Release summer 2009 http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=816234 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=816234)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ok now all rational thought goes out the window....with the vertical grip this is the most beautiful camera i have ever seen.....20000 for body and lens should be realistic.....but summer 2009 is a long way off...a lot can happen till then....and a one point AF system does not sound very interesting...there i am trying to be rational again....
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Eye piece does look large - hope that is also nice and bright - almost makes up for the single AF point.
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never mind.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This camera looks so nice, but sorry 20.000 is a deal breaker. Well take 4 lenses and you are where ? 35.000 ?
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Take a Hasselblad and you have about the same price.
Hopefully the Leica has not the Hasselblad mirror slap.
Bernd
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Looks like the leaf shutter lenses will go up to 1/500. Slightly disappointing (not that I'm lining up to buy one anyway )
See article (in German): http://www.fotomagazin.de/news/detail.php?...6&objectID=1896 (http://www.fotomagazin.de/news/detail.php?class=6&objectID=1896)
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"Dentists and Outgoing CEO's unite! Come to the front of the line -- do WE have a camera for YOU!"
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"Dentists and Outgoing CEO's unite! Come to the front of the line -- do WE have a camera for YOU!"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
echo +rental houses
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Roll on the rumoured Nikon MX format camera.
Quentin
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I'm thinking their ergonomics dept. got better between the S1 & S2...
http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00GqzV (http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00GqzV)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223281\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The price is critical.
If it has the crop ability of the Nikon D3 -- the ability to use DX lenses on an FX camera in a crop mode -- so that you can use R lenses (with an adapter) on the Leica, as essentially a full-frame Leica R, allowing you to buy the MF lenses later, that would help a lot of people -- and it should be doable, unless there a problem with the lens mount that wouldn't allow an adapter. A crop mode would also help in the sense that you could buy a cheaper and older R as a disaster back-up camera, rather than buying two S2s.
The fact that it is weather-sealed could be significant for some shooters, especially those who do outdoor ocean and desert fashion/automotive shoots.
But I gotta bad feeling -- that the price is going to be exorbitant ($20,000 euros is exorbitant) and that ninety percent of their market could go with the new Nikon, which I don't believe is a rumor.
JC
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"Dentists and Outgoing CEO's unite! Come to the front of the line -- do WE have a camera for YOU!"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Pah, this camera is for Batman only!
The design of this thing is stunning.
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The price is critical.
If it has the crop ability of the Nikon D3 -- the ability to use DX lenses on an FX camera in a crop mode -- so that you can use R lenses (with an adapter) on the Leica, as essentially a full-frame Leica R, allowing you to buy the MF lenses later, that would help a lot of people -- and it should be doable, unless there a problem with the lens mount that wouldn't allow an adapter. A crop mode would also help in the sense that you could buy a cheaper and older R as a disaster back-up camera, rather than buying two S2s.
The fact that it is weather-sealed could be significant for some shooters, especially those who do outdoor ocean and desert fashion/automotive shoots.
But I gotta bad feeling -- that the price is going to be exorbitant ($20,000 euros is exorbitant) and that ninety percent of their market could go with the new Nikon, which I don't believe is a rumor.
JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i am pretty sure that you cant use 35mm lenses for shorter distance between lens and mirror, whih has to be larger ona larger sensor.
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According to this guy on the LUG there will be an adapter to use the R lenses on the S2.... If true then that's some good news. See below....
From: Charlie Chan
I met Dr Kaufmann at the Goodwood Revival motorsport meeting in the UK
on Friday and Saturday. He espied my DMR and 280/4 APO and came to
have a chat. I noticed his M8 and said how disappointed I was with the
shutter noise. He said he had a M8.2 and would I like to try it - very
quiet. He was a really nice guy and committed to Leica and their
cameras. We had a chat about future developments and said that the R10
is real and will be announced next fall. There will be an adapter in
the meantime for using R lenses on the new S mount, but this will come
later.
Charlie
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interesting!
sounds amazing. ISO1600 at full resolution of 60MP or at half or fourth the resolution?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223360\")
1600iso will result in a 15MP file.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]
()
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1600iso will result in a 15MP file.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Capture Integration (http://www.captureintegration.com)
()
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So is a CLEAN iso 800 a 30mpx file?
Thx.
JR
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I'm wondering where Phase One is heading.
They seem to be all over the place....russian Hartblei lenses for the Phase One camera....65 MP for the top...and now selling Leica S2 as well ....to Wim Wenders (damn I was thinking he is going to shoot his next movie on a 5dMKII)
I dont get it!
@ Lance : If I walk into your shop next summer and I'm a fashion/portraitshooter, what will you sell me? A cheapo MamiyaPhase 30+ or a S2? (Don't get me wrong, just asking/curious)
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As-we-get-it news is being posted to our website's front page: CaptureIntegration.com (http:///www.captureintegration.com)
Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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1600iso will result in a 15MP file.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Lance!
That's what I've expected. But... ISO1600 in 15MP are still very good (if the high ISO is really good).
Nevertheless the binning thing /scalable pixelsize and the upgradeable chip are the most interessting news to me personally amongst everything that has been announced the least weeks.
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Thanks Lance!
That's what I've expected. But... ISO1600 in 15MP are still very good (if the high ISO is really good).
Nevertheless the binning thing /scalebale pixelsize and the upgradeable chip are the most interessting news to me personally amongst everything that has been announced the least weeks.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223408\")
I think all of the info that is coming from Phase One is very positive.
Phase One is aligning themselves with existing manufacturers to enhance their existing and or new offerings and combining it with Phase One's knowledge/intellectual property and value added distribution channels.
Phase One is also not leaving any of their supported platforms (bodies) behind either. With Capture One Pro when released will have their Lens+ technology which does not only correct for CA/Purple Fringing (today), but will do lens geometry as well not just for Phase One/Mamiya lenses, but Hasselblad and Contax lenses as well (from what I understand from what was explained to me this morning)
As far as what system I will sell to you Heinrich if you walk into my office and are a fashion/portraitshooter next summer it will all depend on what is actually available at the time, your budget and what features you will need. So lets cross that bridge when we come to it.
More news out of Photokina cannot come quick enough!!!
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]
()
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"Dentists and Outgoing CEO's unite! Come to the front of the line -- do WE have a camera for YOU!"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey, I'm neither of those. Does that mean I can't have one ? Mind you at the quoted price it's going to be mostly be used to take pictures of Aunt Ethel and the cat by the said Dentist's and CEO's.
It's a pity that it's not going to be priced so that it's within reach of most people that want one. It's the best designed camera I've ever set my eyes on and Leica lenses are just simply the best.
Now if Nikon can make an MX that looks that good things could get really interesting.
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echo +rental houses
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you sometimes get the feeling that we're nearing that time where the business model of still photographers is more like filmmakers? Where nobody owns their own gear -- everything is rented for the job? Maybe we'd each own a 5DII for location scouting and talent casting, but the day before the job, everyone heads to TREC or FotoCare for the real camera?
With depreciation on this stuff so extreme, any BeanCounter would think you were nuts to buy one, especially if you could bill the rental. It's no fun to take a big hit. So buy with extreme care. I'd say, by the time these Leicas are shipping, and the bugs are worked out, we'll be reading about the NEXT photokina. So the day you actually take delivery on the S2, and get it in your hands, the next one will be announced, and your one-day old camera is worth pennies on the dollar, uh, Euro.
These people get their business models from AA and Drugs on the Playground. I recommend to everyone -- revolt against this practice of "announce one year, and ship the next", when the prices are so extreme. It starts with you. Draw up your own official-looking Contract and whip it out right before you sign your name on that check, and let the Contract state that they'll write you a check for the difference in what the camera is actually worth on the street, when the software is right, and the bugs are worked out. And then when they won't, then leave the boxes on the counter, and turn and walk away.
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Do you sometimes get the feeling that we're nearing that time where the business model of still photographers is more like filmmakers? Where nobody owns their own gear -- everything is rented for the job? Maybe we'd each own a 5DII for location scouting and talent casting, but the day before the job, everyone heads to TREC or FotoCare for the real camera?
With depreciation on this stuff so extreme, any BeanCounter would think you were nuts to buy one, especially if you could bill the rental. It's no fun to take a big hit. So buy with extreme care. I'd say, by the time these Leicas are shipping, and the bugs are worked out, we'll be reading about the NEXT photokina. So the day you actually take delivery on the S2, and get it in your hands, the next one will be announced, and your one-day old camera is worth pennies on the dollar, uh, Euro.
These people get their business models from AA and Drugs on the Playground. I recommend to everyone -- revolt against this practice of "announce one year, and ship the next", when the prices are so extreme. It starts with you. Draw up your own official-looking Contract and whip it out right before you sign your name on that check, and let the Contract state that they'll write you a check for the difference in what the camera is actually worth on the street, when the software is right, and the bugs are worked out. And then when they won't, then leave the boxes on the counter, and turn and walk away.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I second to that, by all means, and today more than ever, 20,000 euros is a lot of dough....
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Whenever this thing hits the street, I'll gladly exchange my Mamiya P45+ for one. Good lenses and AF sound like a nice idea.
I don't antcipate that to happen too soon though. In fact, Leaf/Sinar and Hassy might decide that building a similar smaller sensor into their models allows them to break the $10K price barrier. And Sinar has some pretty nice lenses
Edmund
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Do you sometimes get the feeling that we're nearing that time where the business model of still photographers is more like filmmakers? Where nobody owns their own gear -- everything is rented for the job? Maybe we'd each own a 5DII for location scouting and talent casting, but the day before the job, everyone heads to TREC or FotoCare for the real camera?
With depreciation on this stuff so extreme, any BeanCounter would think you were nuts to buy one, especially if you could bill the rental. It's no fun to take a big hit. So buy with extreme care. I'd say, by the time these Leicas are shipping, and the bugs are worked out, we'll be reading about the NEXT photokina. So the day you actually take delivery on the S2, and get it in your hands, the next one will be announced, and your one-day old camera is worth pennies on the dollar, uh, Euro.
These people get their business models from AA and Drugs on the Playground. I recommend to everyone -- revolt against this practice of "announce one year, and ship the next", when the prices are so extreme. It starts with you. Draw up your own official-looking Contract and whip it out right before you sign your name on that check, and let the Contract state that they'll write you a check for the difference in what the camera is actually worth on the street, when the software is right, and the bugs are worked out. And then when they won't, then leave the boxes on the counter, and turn and walk away.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes. I was speaking a few weeks ago, at a dinner party, with a leasing agent for digital backs in NY and he explained to me that the prices are pretty much made, in his opinion, for the rental houses. They get a bulk discount and very attractive lease terms. This allows them to make their lease payment on each back with only 2 rentals a month or so - everything else is gravy. There is some sort of buy back or embargo period on the resale of those heavily used backs or the option of course to just trade up to the next latest and greatest. I've forgotten the details but basically, DBs priced not to own. And, those landscape shooters (dentists, former dentists, and the like, etc) who never make a dime on their work anyway but don't care because they already have a porsche AND a Harley.
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I think all of the info that is coming from Phase One is very positive.
Phase One is aligning themselves with existing manufacturers to
()
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
lance,
wow.
lots of news. i didn't think medium format had it in them to make so many changes and deals.
new leicas, medium format backs with 1600 iso, new lenses, variable resolution sensors. wow.
then I stop and re read the press releases.
60mpx backs for $45,000 u.s. and the same cell phone lcd.
1,600 iso but it's only 15mpx. a 5ds2 has 21mpx at 1600 iso, sells for $3,000 and shoots high def video.
new medium format lenses but only two with leaf shutters and one made from old russian spy glass.
a new bigger than 35mm leica but 20.000 euro and we don't know the prices of the lenses yet.
a strategic alliance with microsoft.
at least we have value added service. whew!
so, as much as I hope this all works out for phase, leica, mamiya, bill gates and the ex-soviets, we won't know the real outcome until it is actually used by bill paying photographers.
that is if they have any money left to pay the bills.
wow.
big cooter
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Capture One Pro ... will do lens geometry as well not just for Phase One/Mamiya lenses, but Hasselblad and Contax lenses as well (from what I understand from what was explained to me this morning)[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That would be very very welcome! Hoefully I will see it tomorrow...
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I know when Sinar announced their new offerings people jumped all over poor Thierry for not providing all the details.
But we have no representative from Leica here to push on.... so come on Leica how can you invite all these people to a big splash photokina presentation and not even give us some simple facts like the ISO range of the new camera? Is it that far from being finished?
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http://www.s.leica-camera.com/ (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/)
They are certainly taking this seriously...
Quentin
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http://www.s.leica-camera.com/ (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/)
They are certainly taking this seriously...
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223426\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow was that video introduction painful to watch. From the site it appears they are planning to send out a newsletter to anyone that signs up next year..... so probably the camera is a long ways off from being finished, though I'd like to hear otherwise.
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although i would love a camera like this, i really dont quite know what its for.
i shoot advertsing only, but a lot of variety.
im sure this camera is good for someone, but i find i need two distinct types of cameras- slow, high quality cameras for when you need to do a deliberate studied shot, ie car shooting, complicated comps. these cameras need lots of MP, and theres no worries about shooting to a big screen.
and a waist finder is handy with these.
and then theres a need for a fast camera, for shooting people, or fast stuff, high iso. good to keep out the dirt, sand and water.
so i have an h1/DB and a 1dsmk3.
but i never find i need something in between.
maybe its a good fashion camera when shooting with flash? but it isnt quite a car, landscape, architecture, sports camera.
who here will really consider buying one? maybe im missing something?
paul
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although i would love a camera like this, i really dont quite know what its for.
i shoot advertsing only, but a lot of variety.
im sure this camera is good for someone, but i find i need two distinct types of cameras- slow, high quality cameras for when you need to do a deliberate studied shot, ie car shooting, complicated comps. these cameras need lots of MP, and theres no worries about shooting to a big screen.
and a waist finder is handy with these.
and then theres a need for a fast camera, for shooting people, or fast stuff, high iso. good to keep out the dirt, sand and water.
so i have an h1/DB and a 1dsmk3.
but i never find i need something in between.
maybe its a good fashion camera when shooting with flash? but it isnt quite a car, landscape, architecture, sports camera.
who here will really consider buying one? maybe im missing something?
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just checked out your very nice website.. seems to me that this S2 camera would do it all for you.. not sure how big your h1 digital back is or really how good this new one is.. .. I am seeing this is a fast small camera with all the quality of my big slow medium format.. I stlll need a view camera so it won't replace my db..but for everything else this would be my ideal goto camera.
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Wow was that video introduction painful to watch. From the site it appears they are planning to send out a newsletter to anyone that signs up next year..... so probably the camera is a long ways off from being finished, though I'd like to hear otherwise.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223427\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've been reading a bunch of forums on this camera, and in one of them, there was a link to a magazine that had actually seen the camera, and referred to it as a "working prototype." So it's not far from being done...
JC
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And, those landscape shooters (dentists, former dentists, and the like, etc) who never make a dime on their work anyway but don't care because they already have a porsche AND a Harley.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, no, no. It's Porsche and a BMW. It's Corvette and a Harley.
JC
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I just checked out your very nice website.. seems to me that this S2 camera would do it all for you.. not sure how big your h1 digital back is or really how good this new on is.. .. I am seeing this is a fast small camera with all the quality of my big slow medium format.. I stlll need a view camera so it won't replace my db..but for everything else this would be my ideal goto camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks paul. maybe you are right- the "one camera for all" idea.
i only have a leaf with 22mp, so obviously this will blow it away mp wise. but i was planning to get a used p45 asap (unless i get lured into something else).
there are many shots that i just couldnt live with out the canon. i really do need 5fps and i need a camera that has many focus points, and actually has water housings available for it. not to mention f1.2 50 and 85.
if i got a leica, maybe the quality would render the h1 not needed, but definately not the canon.
but i would miss the waist level finder of the h1.
the big thing that im sure this camera would really blow away the canon as far as im concerned is that it should have decent software and tethering. that is by far the worst aspect of the canon, completely crap software. hats off to leica to team up with a proven, professional software company.
paul
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thanks paul. maybe you are right- the "one camera for all" idea.
i only have a leaf with 22mp, so obviously this will blow it away mp wise. but i was planning to get a used p45 asap (unless i get lured into something else).
there are many shots that i just couldnt live with out the canon. i really do need 5fps and i need a camera that has many focus points, and actually has water housings available for it. not to mention f1.2 50 and 85.
if i got a leica, maybe the quality would render the h1 not needed, but definately not the canon.
but i would miss the waist level finder of the h1.
the big thing that im sure this camera would really blow away the canon as far as im concerned is that it should have decent software and tethering. that is by far the worst aspect of the canon, completely crap software. hats off to leica to team up with a proven, professional software company.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was also thinking about updating my back...
I don't get as wet or muddy as you do but I am holding out that I can use some of my fast leica lenses on this and live with some fall off.. I heard an adapter is in the works..and I am still in the dark ages with manual focus lenses for all my cameras.. so we have
different issues..I am really pleased with the quality I have gotten from my dmr.. so I can't wait to see what this camera can do.
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http://www.s.leica-camera.com/ (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/)
They are certainly taking this seriously...
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223426\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As a Leica user for many years I think this is awesome. However, with a hinted at price of 20,000 Euros for the body alone - OMG!!! I'm sure the lens prices will be astronomical also. Hopefully Leica has been paying attention to Mamiya and the ZD and this tempting morsel will be affordable for us mere mortals.
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Cheering and booing, all at once. Leica has broken its stodgy mould and become the first camera company to smash out of the antiquated 35/MF paradigm. "Formats" are a thing of the past ( and have been for a while -- just nobody's had the balls to say so). The future is about systems, and the vision and ergonomics that accompany them.
Leica has hit the sweet-spot, imho, on the camera-size / file size chart. This camera could be a world beater, especially coupling Leica optics to a large sensor.
......but.......
Price??? I can own a second-hand 39MP MF system, with lenses, for about what the *body* is rumoured to be costing here?!?!?! F'getabouit.
And the lenses. Um, er, where are the zooms? TS lenses are nice, but who gives fuck. Really. Seriously. It's called a "view" camera. Goes on a tripod with a (now) dirt cheap MF back covering 4x5 in multiple frames. Costs so much less you can buy an investment bank with the change from the prices people are throwing around here.
For the other 99.5% of shooters who couldn't give rat's ass about T/S, where are the zooms? HELLO IN THERE. Zoooooooooooom lenses!!! They're these cool things where you can, like, totally change the focal length just by turning a ring, eh. It's like, so totally awesome. Fixed focal length, on the other hand, is like, so totally 1960.
Sharp, sure. Whatever. On a camera meant to compete with high-end 35mm Nikon and Canon, there MUST BE core zoom lenses. And fast ones at that.
And here's the kicker.......what if the rumours about Nikon's "MX" format are true? It'll deliver thrice the ISO performance, and a third the price, I bet. And it will actually be available for purchase in that nifty, here's-my-money-hand-me-my-camera-I-have -shoot-tomorrow kind of way.
with zoom lenses.
So, cheering and booing.
We live in interesting times.
- N.
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... and camera controls, there seams to be an FPS-CS-OFF lever and the 4 Phase One buttons in the back, plus one dial in the back and one on top... this is the most bare dialed camera I have seen, makes my D300 look so PRO and sophisticated... @20K EU ??
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another overpriced 3:2 slr. yawn.
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another overpriced 3:2 slr. yawn.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If, in fact, it is priced in Euros, then, at today's rates, (not that the body is even finished; it's still balsa wood), then it would convert to:
$ 29,570.01 USD
and that's for the body alone. And extra for the floor mats.
Add three Leica lenses to that figure, and you've got a Second Mortgage. But oops, you're upside down in your house, so that means that a Second Mortgage is not available. Sorry.
So that sends you to Miami to join up with ScarFace, to raise the funds.
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If, in fact, it is priced in Euros, then, at today's rates, (not that the body is even finished; it's still balsa wood), then it would convert to:
$ 29,570.01 USD
and that's for the body alone.
So that sends you to Miami to join up with ScarFace, to raise the funds.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223469\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Gwitf,
You'll be making that much in a month once your Gwitf Autograph Softboxes hit the the shelves of Home Depot...
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as far as i can see, its missing a dedicated af focus button .
i still havnt figured out how people can use the shutter button to focus on anything thats not dead center.
paul
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r for 35mm.
James seems to be loving his 1DsMIII.
I wonder James how often are yougrabbing tha Contax these days?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
More with the Canon than the Contax. A lot more, but some of that is just project specfic, though a lot of it is the Canons go to higher iso.
I don't see any dynamic range difference, but then again that's why God made foam core, and the color of the Canons is very good, the file holds up well.
I do wish it had less of an AA filter or whatever gives it a little less bite, but it's not so obvious that it can't be overcome with some sharpening.
I actually don't mind the Canons tethering software. it's a little disjointed but the previews are very nice and full screen and now running windows it tethers fast.
The thing about the Canon is it's inexpensive, which is kind of crazy to think of a $7,000 still camera as inexpensive, but looking at the last 4 or 5 new annoucements it is laughable inexpensive and you can buy it today . . . anywhere.
JR
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The thing about the Canon is it's inexpensive, which is kind of crazy to think of a $7,000 still camera as inexpensive, but looking at the last 4 or 5 new annoucements it is laughable inexpensive and you can buy it today . . . anywhere.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that's the problem....the 5dmkII will do even better high iso and HD video for 2500.....that is just hard to beat....
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the big thing that im sure this camera would really blow away the canon as far as im concerned is that it should have decent software and tethering. that is by far the worst aspect of the canon, completely crap software. hats off to leica to team up with a proven, professional software company.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Paul,
Do you really think it's going to blow away a P30+ and they are lowering the price of that back, probably to 12 grand or something. Put that on a H-1 and you saved at least $30,000 U.S. with lenses.
Now nobody knows what the Leica will be like, but do you really think that since it has a ccd it's going to have a clean iso above 400?
I like the looks of the Leica, but for the price and working every day, I don't know, I think I'd rather have a couple of 5d 2's and a p30 or A65, or even that blad with the p30 sensor.
In reality, none of the cameras announced will do everything, I guess that's asking too much.
The Leica if it was ready today still will probalby have low iso, the Phase p65 goes to 1600 but at 15mpx . . . whatever . . . the Leaf and the new sinar look interesting, but they also will probably not go to 800 iso real clean since they are ccd's and of all the new annoucements other than the 5d they all range from semi expensive to off the scale expensive.
So for me, I guess what I own will do everything I need other than shoot motion.
Now, if I could buy a 5dII right now I'd buy 2.
JR
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Take a Hasselblad and you have about the same price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Really? I think you should ring your Hasselblad dealer and ask about the latest prices..
Nick-T
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Really? I think you should ring your Hasselblad dealer and ask about the latest prices..
Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223490\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nick,
Presenting these new cameras, or actually updates of previous cameras, (except the Leica) is like a political campaign. I think each makers would be better off selling what is good about their own system, but it's impossible not to compare on to the other, even the dslrs.
Phase, historically they make a stable product and they do have the only full frame sensor, though at $45,000 it seems very, very expensive. As far as cameras, until the lenses are out and the new right angle grip the Mamiya 3 seems limited but it also seems to be getting better. The lcd . . . we've all talked the Phase lcd to death and unless they announce something soon, I guess that's just the way it's gong to stay.
With Leaf and Sinar both I like the idea of the Hy6 or Rollei, but the downside is the lens prices, though even Mamiya seems to have high prices on their new lenses so maybe that's just the norm.
Sinar did seem to listen about in camera processing and a better lcd and if they actually can produce a marketing effort and get product on the shelves and in rental it will be much more attractive.
Leaf finally got around to having their back display an image when tethering but it's a shame that it can't be retroactive to their other aptus backs. I think that's a big mistake.
Hasselblad. They have the most seasoned platform and a full range of lenses ready to buy, no waiting. The file format thing makes no sense to me and software that takes a computer upgrade or a new video card also seems like a slight hurdle, but at least the blad is ready to buy and the prices seem pretty good. It's a shame it's not black and it looks like an American Motors Pacer.
I do find it interesting that of all the new medium format annoucements, Sinar, Leaf, Phase, Hasselblad and Leica the prices for most are high, for some much higher, the iso stays the same, which means the real world use stays the same, but when you look at the dslr annoucements from Canon and Sony, they have actually gone much lower in price, higher in iso and both offer 20 something megapixels for $3,000.
JR
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Leica S2 digital SLR 30x45mm sensor 37.5 mega pixel in a 35mm style body announced this morning now we are talking.
Terence
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I have a question?
What if this rumored Nikon MX is similar to the Leica S2?
It wouldn't be that hard for Canon to do a similar camera as well.
Still Leica has that kudos that is legendary.
Cheers,
Willem.
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I have a question?
What if this rumored Nikon MX is similar to the Leica S2?
It wouldn't be that hard for Canon to do a similar camera as well.
Still Leica has that kudos that is legendary.
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price) doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?
I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.
What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?
JR
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Dale Farkas' blog seems to have the most information on the S2 and R10 that I have seen so far. The way the lenses are described they sound incredible (and likely very expensive).
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
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That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.
Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH
The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.
I would love to see the price list!
Cheers,
Willem.
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I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price) doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?
I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.
What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
actually the 5DmkII is more like 1/3 of the price with the next gen. sensor....
the dsmkIII is a kind of a hard sale right now and will have to come down in price by the end of the year (when the 5dII ships).....
who says the 1dsIV isn't in the works and goes in the same direction? the 5D/1dsII placement made more sense...they were able to co-exist...the 5dII comes right up to the dsIII and gives a little extra, so canon HAS to come out with something.....and they knew all this, so it will be interesting to see what it will be.....and somehow i don't see a 1dsIV with a 30mpix 24x36 sensor....a larger sensor makes much more sense...
the leica looks amazing, the phase cooperation makes it "real", the lenses will be amazing....
but afaik i will have to wait ONE YEAR for it, even if i want it.....that is a LOOOONG time for canon and nikon, neither of which have announced a new flagship yet.....
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actually the 5DmkII is more like 1/3 of the price with the next gen. sensor....
the dsmkIII is a kind of a hard sale right now and will have to come down in price by the end of the year (when the 5dII ships).....
who says the 1dsIV isn't in the works and goes in the same direction? the 5D/1dsII placement made more sense...they were able to co-exist...the 5dII comes right up to the dsIII and gives a little extra, so canon HAS to come out with something.....and they knew all this, so it will be interesting to see what it will be.....and somehow i don't see a 1dsIV with a 30mpix 24x36 sensor....a larger sensor makes much more sense...
the leica looks amazing, the phase cooperation makes it "real", the lenses will be amazing....
but afaik i will have to wait ONE YEAR for it, even if i want it.....that is a LOOOONG time for canon and nikon, neither of which have announced a new flagship yet.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223509\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My point is it's not like Canon to just totally obsolete their flagship camera overnight, especially one that has been on the market such a short time.
Something made them do it, maybe Sony, maybe Nikon, though I doubt if the Leica or any medium format announcements really got thier attention.
The thing is obviously in the world of cmos and dslrs the sensor is not the defining costs factor, like it is for medium format, because if it was, then the 5d2 would be selling at a loss.
Looking at the $3,000 price of the 5d2, it does make you wonder what type of camera they could produce for $7,000.
Maybe a 36x36 square sensor that goes to multiple formats, from 4:5 to 16:9, including video.
It also makes you wonder if the next flagship camera from Canon will even be produced, given that Sony seems content to offer 24mpx for $3,000. Maybe the 5d2 is the top of the line Canon for the forseable future.
To me, the real 600 lb. gorilla is Sony. With their experience in high end video, their ability to produce their own sensors and the fact that they really are working from a clean sheet of paper with no real user installed base, they could probably offer just about anything in any configuration.
It also makes me think how well the Leica would sell if it was a $10,000 camera vs. a $24,000 camera, but I guess given the fact that it will be sold through normal medium format channels, the prices will not go lower.
I am surprised that the Leica lenses are so slow, nothing in the f2 range, and most 3.5's.
Given that it's a ccd, which means lower iso than cmos, 3.5's are very slow for a lot of work you would expect to do with a camera of those physical dimensions.
Still all of this is conjecture and means very little until all of these cameras get into real world use.
JR
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$24000 is that the price of the new Leica S2 ?and those lenses are going to cost an absolute fortune, now we are not even close to talking.
In fact if i am realistic my Nikon d80 has earned me more money than my Leaf Aptus (hey that is probably my fault ) i am much more likely to be lining up for a higher res Nikon or canon 5d mk2.
Terence
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Sorry did not mean to include my web page link ,do not even bother looking at it i have not updated it in about 5 months.
Terence
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That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.
Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH
The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.
they may very well be "perfect" ...
but that'll probably mean they'll be lacking in personality/character.
... of course some photographic applications require just that.
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they may very well be "perfect" ...
but that'll probably mean they'll be lacking in personality/character.
... of course some photographic applications require just that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)
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There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)
sounds, to me, like an applications mismatch.
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The presented S2 design has less area than current digital MF - which is
actually cropped 645 - so why pay all that money, when you don't even
get the MF "look".
This compromise design seems a joke. By 2009 when it ships, I bet
Sinar will be announcing a 6x6 Hy6, and those Schneider lenses are ok
too.
Then, by end 2009 I'd say we'll also have a 28 MP Canon with existing-
F:1.2 and F1.4 lenses, existing Zeiss wides, and full HD *raw* video
like Red.
At the moment I finally have my Phase back producing images that look
ok. Even though find I have to use Photoshop CS4 to develop them - we
all have to make compromises And I finally have my junk Epson 9600
cleaned up and churning out the BIG prints. So I'm gonna produce
images for now, and leave the fantasizing about gear for when the inspiration
runs out.
BTW, I find that Adobe CS4 does a really nice job for pushing clarity and vibrance on landscape images. The new ACR is a definite keeper. I've been using it for several months now. Also, about 10MP out of the 39 from the Phase back upsize really well to a full width Epson 9600 44" print. In the end what I find interesting about the MF format is the degree to which the files can be pushed around and cropped. They're like rubber bands.
Edmund
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more photos of the S2
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20171/leica-s2/ (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20171/leica-s2/)
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Now nobody knows what the Leica will be like, but do you really think that since it has a ccd it's going to have a clean iso above 400?
...
the Leaf and the new sinar look interesting, but they also will probably not go to 800 iso real clean since they are ccd's
You seem to have something against CCDs. In case this hasn't been shown to you before, Thierry already posted an iso 800 sample from the e75 which is very nice indeed. I can't imagine you need cleaner than that. See http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683) (Haven't I shown this to you before?)
I think I'd rather have a couple of 5d 2's
Btw, did you know the 5D2 has a flash sync of only 1/200?
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There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.
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There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200 L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..
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Hasselblad. They have the most seasoned platform and a full range of lenses ready to buy, no waiting. The file format thing makes no sense to me and software that takes a computer upgrade or a new video card also seems like a slight hurdle, but at least the blad is ready to buy and the prices seem pretty good. It's a shame it's not black and it looks like an American Motors Pacer.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223497\")
EXECELLENT!!! A car that looks as good as a Pacer...
(http://www.american-motors.de/en/pacer/history/pacerx75.jpg)
Call it the "[a href=\"http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/16/pf/autos/pacer_auction/]Mirth Camera[/url]"!!!
Party on Wayne!
- Garth Algar
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I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200 L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Other than the the 35/1.4, Canon's wide angle lenses would only seem sharp to...
(http://www.mudslides.com/graphics/Magootpsm.gif)
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I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200 L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd love to see samples of these wide open, and in the corners. I don't doubt that they all perform stopped down but Leica tends to outperform Canon lenses wide open. I've seen samples from the 85, for example, which were not impressive.
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My point is it's not like Canon to just totally obsolete their flagship camera overnight, especially one that has been on the market such a short time.
Maybe a 36x36 square sensor that goes to multiple formats, from 4:5 to 16:9, including video.
Still all of this is conjecture and means very little until all of these cameras get into real world use.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All very true.
It all depends on just how willing Canon is to either:
a. Develop an entirely new range of lenses for a larger (36x36? Why not bigger?) sensor - a goodly proportion of the existing EF lenses have rectangular light cutters built in to eliminate flare, meaning they couldn't be used (at full size anyway) on any sensor bigger than 24x36.
b. Develop MkIII versions of existing EF designs to cope with the 50MP 24x36(?) sensors they have been rumoured to be working on.
Canon has proven to be by far the most forward looking of all the manufacturers, as evidenced by your earlier reference to the size of the EF mount. They took an incredible amount of flak back in the late '80s- over 20 years ago! - when they completely broke with the FD mount (something many older Canon aficionados still haven't forgiven them for) and introduced the first completely electronic mount in the EOS/EF. And increased the diameter substantially (for faster lenses, eg. the 50f1.0L, and better AF, were the reasons given back then) at the same time. But no one could argue now that they made the wrong decision!
Interesting times indeed...
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There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223546\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Considering the price of the lenses, this still leaves a huge opportunity wide open for companies like Canon and Nikon that belong to the cheap currency world...
The strong Euro is IMHO going to hit this camera really really bad.
Frankly speaking, who is going to invest in a new Leica system at this price point?
- Retrofit backs with larger sensors like the P45 are cheaper and are a lot more flexible since they can be used. You can also have a like new H3D39II at the same price today on ebay,
- Current DSLR are not that far in absolute performance at 1/8 th the price,
- Nikon is rumoured to enter the very same market and will for sure never sell a body above 10.000 US$. I would expect a Nikon entry to be in a different league in terms of usability, even if lenses might be a tad behind...
Anyway I look at it, Leica must be targetting the wealthy amateur market with the S2, and don't see why a working pro would invest in one.
Cheers,
Bernard
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nice to see this camera, but its not that revolutionary. just a dslr on steroids.
would have been much more exciting to see one with no mirror box - a straight through lens>sensor path and a pro quality live view digital VF instead.
that way you can get over the hump between 'standard' and 'wide' lenses without that huge gap between primes (note the 70mm standard, next one down is... 35mm - nothing in the 45/50/55mm prime range.)
Leica don't have the depth of digital tech/engineering know how to jump forward to pro live view finder in slr's, that will come from Japan, and when it does, expect a truly new design of pro camera finally be here.
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I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price) doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?
I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.
What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
and what if canon makes it in a leica S mount? that would keep the S bodies on the shelf..
I feel that leica has got to keep the price within the desired market.. even if it is a loss leader..this is their couturé line..in the fashion bus. designers know they never hit a profit margin on it.. it is the second lines that they make the bucks on. Leica will never be able to compete dollar for dollar with canon, nor can canon compete overall quality-wise with leica.
Leica is going for the niche high-end pro-market..maybe the top 10%.. but only the top 1%, if that, make the money to go out and buy into a new system just like that.. and this 1% are for the most part are not stupid in the business dept. and buy equipment that works for them on all levels, not because it is the latest, most fab, got-to-have fashion statement..it is a tool of the trade and how it performs or doesn't is critical to our success in the market.
The camera could work for me.. but it has to work financially..and that is the big unknown at the moment.. if I was shooting national ads everyday of the week, every week, then I would just say sign me up, I don't care if it is 15, 20 or 30g..but this isn't the 90's is it?
If it is the best camera in the market it should and will be the most expensive..but by how much..that will determine if this new bit of kit is just eye candy or is something more than a handful of us can work with.
I hope the latter.. cause it would would look great with my Helmet Lang black leather jacket!
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nice to see this camera, but its not that revolutionary. just a dslr on steroids.
would have been much more exciting to see one with no mirror box - a straight through lens>sensor path and a pro quality live view digital VF instead.
that way you can get over the hump between 'standard' and 'wide' lenses without that huge gap between primes (note the 70mm standard, next one down is... 35mm - nothing in the 45/50/55mm prime range.)
Leica don't have the depth of digital tech/engineering know how to jump forward to pro live view finder in slr's, that will come from Japan, and when it does, expect a truly new design of pro camera finally be here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223560\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i couldn't agree more. what we have seen from leica is an old concept somewhat revamped. kodak sensor+fujitsu electronics+bronica (rumor) lenses+ german panzer (leica) design + phase one software (the best part). no definite specs, zero vision, big price tag (announced before the specs, funny, isn't it?). the real big thing will hopefully come soon, from nikon (or canon, whoever comes first, fine with me).
peter
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There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223546\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Of course the way the dollar is going, by the time Leica gets around to rolling this out, €15K is going to be about $50,000...
I better see if my loan from AIG came through.
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Of course the way the dollar is going, by the time Leica gets around to rolling this out, €15K is going to be about $50,000...
I better see if my loan from AIG came through.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223564\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i like the AIG part
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bronica (rumor) lenses+ german panzer (leica) design + phase one software (the best part)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bronica??
The best part of the system will be the lenses, I hope. We already know what a Phase back can do.
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I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200 L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
innocent question: what do canon users do wide angle wise? use the nikon 14-24mm with adapter or is there a more generic solution? i am asking because i am thinking of getting a 5DmarkII...+canon lenses.
peter
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as i said, just a rumor. but apparently leica bought the bronica machinery to do the lenses and did not start the design from scratch.
peter
Bronica??
The best part of the system will be the lenses, I hope. We already know what a Phase back can do.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It's to early to tell how this will turn out it could be a game changer or a big flop depending on performance and price. The Phase One distribution network and the Phase One electronics and software at least gets Leica a hearing. After the M8 launch no one would shell out 10's of thousands on a totally new untested digital system/format from Leica especially without a pro support network.
Phase back and software and Leica Optics and optical viewfinder have a proven track record that at least on paper sounds incredibly attractive. Combining them in a small SLR package with weatherproofing sounds even better. I'm surprised though that Leica did not have at least one really fast lens like 2.0 or 1.8.
So until we see working products and find out street prices it is to early to tell anything. Still kudo's to Dr. Kaufman for taking such a big risk and trying to really bring something new to the market. I've always liked Leica's so I hope it's a smashing success.
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innocent question: what do canon users do wide angle wise? use the nikon 14-24mm with adapter or is there a more generic solution? i am asking because i am thinking of getting a 5DmarkII...+canon lenses.
peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just some examples:
leica R19mm
Zeiss 21mm
Leica 28 or zeiss 28
leica 35 or zeiss 35
or 35-70 from zeiss or leica
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After the M8 launch no one would shell out 10's of thousands on a totally new untested digital system/format from Leica especially without a pro support network.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223574\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why should a 20.000 US$ camera need support in the first place?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Just some examples:
leica R19mm
Zeiss 21mm
Leica 28 or zeiss 28
leica 35 or zeiss 35
or 35-70 from zeiss or leica
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks, but i am so spoiled by the nikon autofokus (even use it for wide angle shooting...i know i know...) and i do not like adapters. which canon wide angles would you recommend?
peter
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So it seems that there will be a mixture of central shutter lenses and shutterless lenses, contrary to some earlier reports.
* Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
* APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
* Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
* APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
* Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
* Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
* Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH
(CS designates 'central shutter')
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thanks, but i am so spoiled by the nikon autofokus (even use it for wide angle shooting...i know i know...) and i do not like adapters. which canon wide angles would you recommend?
peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you don't like adapters you can still use the new Zeiss lenses in EOS mount, such as the 21mm.
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If you don't like adapters you can still use the new Zeiss lenses in EOS mount, such as the 21mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you are right. but i tried zeiss wide angles on the nikon D3 and i was not convinced. the 24-24 and 24-70 were equal in terms of quality, or at least not far behind. so do i really have to forsake autofokus on canon if i want to get great quality wide angles?
peter
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Cheering and booing, all at once. Leica has broken its stodgy mould and become the first camera company to smash out of the antiquated 35/MF paradigm. "Formats" are a thing of the past ( and have been for a while -- just nobody's had the balls to say so). The future is about systems, and the vision and ergonomics that accompany them.
Leica has hit the sweet-spot, imho, on the camera-size / file size chart. This camera could be a world beater, especially coupling Leica optics to a large sensor.
......but.......
Price??? I can own a second-hand 39MP MF system, with lenses, for about what the *body* is rumoured to be costing here?!?!?! F'getabouit.
And the lenses. Um, er, where are the zooms? TS lenses are nice, but who gives fuck. Really. Seriously. It's called a "view" camera. Goes on a tripod with a (now) dirt cheap MF back covering 4x5 in multiple frames. Costs so much less you can buy an investment bank with the change from the prices people are throwing around here.
For the other 99.5% of shooters who couldn't give rat's ass about T/S, where are the zooms? HELLO IN THERE. Zoooooooooooom lenses!!! They're these cool things where you can, like, totally change the focal length just by turning a ring, eh. It's like, so totally awesome. Fixed focal length, on the other hand, is like, so totally 1960.
Sharp, sure. Whatever. On a camera meant to compete with high-end 35mm Nikon and Canon, there MUST BE core zoom lenses. And fast ones at that.
And here's the kicker.......what if the rumours about Nikon's "MX" format are true? It'll deliver thrice the ISO performance, and a third the price, I bet. And it will actually be available for purchase in that nifty, here's-my-money-hand-me-my-camera-I-have -shoot-tomorrow kind of way.
with zoom lenses.
So, cheering and booing.
We live in interesting times.
- N.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223459\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can calm down now as there is supposedly a 30-90 zoom lens..
:+}
(http://www.dpreview.com/articles/photokina2008/Leica/DSC_0667.jpg)
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Why should a 20.000 US$ camera need support in the first place?
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The M8 had teething issues necessitating 3 weeks minimum return to factory.
Edmund
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Why should a 20.000 US$ camera need support in the first place?
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Same reason $40,000 MF backs need support and lighting systems and camera platforms that are widely available in rental houses tend to be favored. Anything can break down at any time and you can't own everything you might need. If your equipment craps out can your rep get you a replacement same or worst case next day or are you out of business? If you need a $7,000 lens once or twice a year can you rent it or do you have to pay to have it sitting on a shelf most of the time?
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i am pretty sure that you cant use 35mm lenses for shorter distance between lens and mirror, whih has to be larger ona larger sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223399\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Leica R mount has a registration distance of about 46mm, which is more than the minimum needed for 24x36mm format (the Canon EF mount is about 42mm). So it might be possible to use the same registration distance despite the extra 6mm of mirror height (30mm vs 24mm). Especially with a fancy mirror mechanism, like that of the Sony A900: the extra mirror depth is only about 4mm when the mirror is angled for use.
In fact, I speculate that the reason for Leica using 30x45mm rather than the 33x44mm of other Kodak sensors is for backward compatibility with the Leica R lens mount. If so, we might at last get a test of the idea that telephoto lenses often have "oversized" image circles, big enough for use with somewhat larger formats: Leica R telephotos might work on S bodies with no need for cropping.
And I agree with a post above: one very intriguing fact here is Leica producing NINE new lenses all at once, way ahead of the pace of Rollei and Hy6 with AF lenses.
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To me, I am thrilled by the Leica only because it will prompt Canon and Nikon to follow.
I knew it was doomed when they brought out Wim Winders to introduce it. Show me someone who earns their living with it and I am impressed.
3 huge problems
1 USB on a 35mp camera. Obviously tethering isn't an option(Doctors and Lawyers won't mind though) 80% of the pro market uses mac and usb is not an option. Why not fw800 and will be fw 3200 by the time it's released?
2 Multi point af. Here was their chance to separate themselves from the pack and they came up short.
3 Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.
Great idea but was a single pro consulted in it's specs?
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Hi,
I think that Leica competes not with Canon but with Hasselblad and Mamya/Phase One on this one.
Canon is weak on wide angle optics. Leica has obviously problems with pricing, but they are in many senses in the same market as Hasselblad, another small european company.
Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!
Best regards
Erik
and what if canon makes it in a leica S mount? that would keep the S bodies on the shelf..
I feel that leica has got to keep the price within the desired market.. even if it is a loss leader..this is their couturé line..in the fashion bus. designers know they never hit a profit margin on it.. it is the second lines that they make the bucks on. Leica will never be able to compete dollar for dollar with canon, nor can canon compete overall quality-wise with leica.
Leica is going for the niche high-end pro-market..maybe the top 10%.. but only the top 1%, if that, make the money to go out and buy into a new system just like that.. and this 1% are for the most part are not stupid in the business dept. and buy equipment that works for them on all levels, not because it is the latest, most fab, got-to-have fashion statement..it is a tool of the trade and how it performs or doesn't is critical to our success in the market.
The camera could work for me.. but it has to work financially..and that is the big unknown at the moment.. if I was shooting national ads everyday of the week, every week, then I would just say sign me up, I don't care if it is 15, 20 or 30g..but this isn't the 90's is it?
If it is the best camera in the market it should and will be the most expensive..but by how much..that will determine if this new bit of kit is just eye candy or is something more than a handful of us can work with.
I hope the latter.. cause it would would look great with my Helmet Lang black leather jacket!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223561\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!
Best regards
Erik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
Your are very right.. a lot of people have over looked that and it is almost 40 megaPixel one at that.
I guess the difference is that is it permanetly inside the camera..
If I have the extra cash flow, I would by one. Would have to down grade my porsche.
Let's see how it all pans out in the next 2-3 years. Maybe the Nikon MF wil come out before hand and force them to lower the price..:+}
Snook
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Same reason $40,000 MF backs need support and lighting systems and camera platforms that are widely available in rental houses tend to be favored. Anything can break down at any time and you can't own everything you might need. If your equipment craps out can your rep get you a replacement same or worst case next day or are you out of business? If you need a $7,000 lens once or twice a year can you rent it or do you have to pay to have it sitting on a shelf most of the time?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess this camera falls into the medium format range, which puts a smile on my face since it doesn't look like medium format it looks like a 35mm dslr, though I'll admit a very pretty dslr.
Still, it fits all the criteria of medium format in that it's expensive, is sold mainly through specialized dealers, the lenses are on the slow side and the price is probably going to be double of anything that comes out of Japan.
Oh yea, it's ccd and since I've owned 10 professional ccd cameras and not seen one go past 400 iso clean I have to assume this will be the same as the others. Maybe fotz is right and Theirry's 800 iso images for the Sinar 75 are clean at 800, I'll believe it when I use it and since I've never seen a Sinar with the batteries charged I guess that test will have to wait.
The thing I find most interesting is the way these cameras are introduced and marketed in relationship to how the Japanese introduce and market their cameras.
None of us know when, what, where, how much the Leica will costs, how well it tethers, if the lcd works when tethering, if it has live view, if all the lenses will be available at once, or if this will be like other Photokina medium format announcements that take 2 years before they are finally on a dealers shelf.
In comparison the 5D2 and the new Sony are already in photographers hands with samples bouncing all over the web.
I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become. Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past.
Did someone from Profoto and Broncolor tell the world of medium format that everyone shoots studio strobe, so forget about continuous light and short depth of field.
I guess techtalk was right when he/she said "-but tomorrow's announcements will be of the evolutionary advancement type."
JR
P.S. Now the first annoucement I would like to see from photokina is that Thomas Knoll will meet 5 photographers in Milan, that will shoot every digital camera out there next to their film counterparts and hand off a digital file and a about 20 different films, in 20 different scenes/subjects and ask him to please make presets to make all of these files look like any of these films. Just like the fcp and aftereffects plug ins that have Michael Bay Yellow, we could have Paulo Roversi polaroid, Ansel Adams zoned black and white, Terry Richardson saturated, etc. etc.
Now the second announcement I would like to see is profoto brings back their hmi lighting. Those things are the bomb and allow you to shoot continuous and flash with the same style modifiers.
Of course to use the hmi's you need higher iso.
I agree with Rogan. Let's don't put rich cats in suits telling us they "talked" to professional photographers so they could make the best camera in the world". Put these things in the hands of people that shoot for a living and let them knock the paint off of em. Then they'll know what is really needed.
That is something that Nikon and Canon are very good at. They put their early pre production cameras out there in working situations, way before they ever go on sale.
-
I guess this camera falls into the medium format range, which puts a smile on my face since it doesn't look like medium format it looks like a 35mm dslr, though I'll admit a very pretty dslr.
Still, it fits all the criteria of medium format in that it's expensive, is sold mainly through specialized dealers, the lenses are on the slow side and the price is probably going to be double of anything that comes out of Japan.
Oh yea, it's ccd and since I've owned 10 professional ccd cameras and not seen one go past 400 iso clean I have to assume this will be the same as the others. Maybe fotz is right and Theirry's 800 iso images for the Sinar 75 are clean at 800, I'll believe it when I use it and since I've never seen a Sinar with the batteries charged I guess that test will have to wait.
The thing I find most interesting is the way these cameras are introduced and marketed in relationship to how the Japanese introduce and market their cameras.
None of us know when, what, where, how much the Leica will costs, how well it tethers, if the lcd works when tethering, if it has live view, if all the lenses will be available at once, or if this will be like other Photokina medium format announcements that take 2 years before they are finally on a dealers shelf.
In comparison the 5D2 and the new Sony are already in photographers hands with samples bouncing all over the web.
I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become. Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past.
Did someone from Profoto and Broncolor tell the world of medium format that everyone shoots studio strobe, so forget about continuous light and short depth of field.
I guess techtalk was right when he/she said "-but tomorrow's announcements will be of the evolutionary advancement type."
JR
P.S. Now the first annoucement I would like to see from photokina is that Thomas Knoll will meet 5 photographers in Milan, that will shoot every digital camera out there next to their film counterparts and hand off a digital file and a about 20 different films, in 20 different scenes/subjects and ask him to please make presets to make all of these files look like any of these films. Just like the fcp and aftereffects plug ins that have Michael Bay Yellow, we could have Paulo Roversi polaroid, Ansel Adams zoned black and white, Terry Richardson saturated, etc. etc.
Now the second announcement I would like to see is profoto brings back their hmi lighting. Those things are the bomb and allow you to shoot continuous and flash with the same style modifiers.
Of course to use the hmi's you need higher iso.
I agree with Rogan. Let's don't put rich cats in suits telling us they "talked" to professional photographers so they could make the best camera in the world". Put these things in the hands of people that shoot for a living and let them knock the paint off of em. Then they'll know what is really needed.
That is something that Nikon and Canon are very good at. They put their early pre production cameras out there in working situations, way before they ever go on sale.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Canon could have fooled me with regard to giving them to working pros. I don't know about the 1ds mark 3 but the mark 2 was a total dog to shoot tethered, the software was horrible and the stupid thing had to go back to the factory every 4 months to get the firewire port replaced.
-
Take a look at Capture Integration's front page. We will be updating our site as the information flows in from Photokina.
http://www.captureintegration.com/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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3 Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm betting that the Leica mentality was about MTF Charts, and Sharpness -- not about actually having to shoot a job as the sun is setting, but the client is yelling for one more setup before you stop for the day.
It must be much easier to make a jawdroppingly sharp lens if the fstop is slower -- thus, we get the slower lenses.
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Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
These lenses DO have leaf shutters, the ones with CS in the name anyway. So you can't really compare with Mamiya.
From previous page:
* Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
* APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
* Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
* APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
* Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
* Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
* Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH
-
It must be much easier to make a jawdroppingly sharp lens if the fstop is slower -- thus, we get the slower lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They better be fantastic wide open.
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Hi,
I think that Leica competes not with Canon but with Hasselblad and Mamya/Phase One on this one. ........ Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!
Best regards
Erik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Will this make a CLOSED SYSTEM??? But I guess since it is Phase One back, so all those PHASE PHANS/clients who bitched moaned endlessly for Hasselblad H3 system, don't recognize the trend.
-
Take a look at Capture Integration's front page. We will be updating our site as the information flows in from Photokina.
http://www.captureintegration.com/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223651\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Chris... what is that fuzzed out lens on the Phase 1 Mamiya.... ?
(http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/vertical_grip_small1.jpg)
The new packaging for the 45mm T/S is very smart. Hopefully it will make the aperture selection a bit easier than with the old one. Now if the glass is as cleaned up as the casing that would be something... I reserve my judgement
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Oh yea, it's ccd and since I've owned 10 professional ccd cameras and not seen one go past 400 iso clean I have to assume this will be the same as the others.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leica has talked about better high ISO performance than other MF backs, so this Kodak FF CCD sensor might well have micro-lenses (like the Kodak 33x44mm, unlike most other MF sensors). Those are good for about one stop of speed, so if the new 6 micron Kodak pixels are good to about ISO 800 w/o micro-lenses, this one might be good to ISO 1600. [Edit: of course your standard of "clean" is probably far more demanding than mine!]
That would still be no threat to Canon or Nikon in the high shutter speed/low light stakes, but good relative to its natural competition: bodies and lenses designed for 56x42m or 49x37mm format but used with 44x33mm sensors.
Also, I believe that a major noise source in FF CCD's is in the high speed transfer of the unamplified signal along the edge of the sensor. Active pixel sensors (CMOS or MOS) more or less eliminate this as a significant noise source by amplifying the signal before this transfer. One way that FF CCD's can reduce noise significantly is by lowering the frequency needed in this transfer, by some combination of (1) having more parallel output channels and (2) lower frame rates. The latest Kodak 50MP sensor for Hasselblad lowers noise by having more parallel output channels; with "only" 37.5MP to read-out, maybe the Leica S2 can do even better, by reading at a 25% lower frequency for the same frame rate.
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I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become. Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past.
Did someone from Profoto and Broncolor tell the world of medium format that everyone shoots studio strobe, so forget about continuous light and short depth of field.
JR
Now the second announcement I would like to see is profoto brings back their hmi lighting. Those things are the bomb and allow you to shoot continuous and flash with the same style modifiers.
Of course to use the hmi's you need higher iso.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Haha.
I used to shoot my Canon 85/1.2 with just the modeling light of my Elinchrom Octabank.
The reason why the MF guys have these slow lenses is the same as why the kit zooms n the consumer bodies are slow: It masks AF failures , and especially the bad body/back fits.
Edmund
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I believe this was shot with the russian tilt shift.
Chris... what is that fuzzed out lens on the Phase 1 Mamiya.... ?
(http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/vertical_grip_small1.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Leica has talked about better high ISO performance than other MF backs, so this Kodak FF CCD sensor might well have micro-lenses (like the Kodak 33x44mm, unlike most other MF sensors).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good ISO performance is something I'd like to have in my next camera or back. Was looking but I hadn't seen anything where Leica talks about better ISO performance so would like to know where you saw that.
I can confirm that the sensor used has microlenses. It is the KAF-37500 which shares the their Truesense technology with the H50 sensor. The H50 basic ISO rating goes 50-400 (with somekind of software bumped iso 800) so probably the S2 with microlenses is going to get a usable iso 800 and a dirty 1600?
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Looks like the 75-150 D lens.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223666\")
I think that Photo was just trying to focus on the vertical grip. It was a snapshot that was sent to us.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]
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I agree with Rogan. Let's don't put rich cats in suits telling us they "talked" to professional photographers so they could make the best camera in the world". Put these things in the hands of people that shoot for a living and let them knock the paint off of em. Then they'll know what is really needed.
That is something that Nikon and Canon are very good at. They put their early pre production cameras out there in working situations, way before they ever go on sale.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James are you trying to get them to send you a free one again...:+}
I do agree with you though.
Snook
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According to Capture Integration...
"Phase One & Leica Form Strategic Alliance
The just-announced medium-format Leica S2 will feature sensor, software, and firmware developed by the experienced engineers of Phase One and will be distributed exclusively through Phase One channels."
http://www.captureintegration.com/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/)
According to David Farkas (who attended the Leica VIP launch event of the S2)...
"So what’s the deal with Phase One? The truth is that I’m not sure, right now (and neither is Leica or Phase). The S2 was developed 100% in-house. Leica is very proud of this. The hardware engineering to the optics to the firmware was all done in Germany. With the Phase deal, the S2 will shoot tethered into C1, which is nice, but they certainly didn’t create this product – Leica did. There was mention of Phase dealers carrying the camera, in addition to Leica dealers, but this is not certain right now. Time will tell.." http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
And the real story? As Mr. Farkas says, time will tell. As a side note, just because two companies have a "strategic alliance" does not mean that one company is developing the other's products. Phase One has a strategic alliance with Microsoft, but I don't believe that Microsoft's experienced engineers are producing major portions of Capture One software or that Phase One is a lead developer of Vista.
You can sort out the "truth" among the active posters here. I'm overloaded with other obligations.
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Will this make a CLOSED SYSTEM??? But I guess since it is Phase One back, so all those PHASE PHANS/clients who bitched moaned endlessly for Hasselblad H3 system, don't recognize the trend.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dude, it's not closed system - it's a camera.
It doesn't use a PhaseOne back or any other - it's a camera.
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According to Capture Integration...
"Phase One & Leica Form Strategic Alliance
The just-announced medium-format Leica S2 will feature sensor, software, and firmware developed by the experienced engineers of Phase One and will be distributed exclusively through Phase One channels."
http://www.captureintegration.com/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/)
According to David Farkas (who attended the Leica VIP launch event of the S2)...
"So whats the deal with Phase One? The truth is that Im not sure, right now (and neither is Leica or Phase). The S2 was developed 100% in-house. Leica is very proud of this. The hardware engineering to the optics to the firmware was all done in Germany. With the Phase deal, the S2 will shoot tethered into C1, which is nice, but they certainly didnt create this product Leica did. There was mention of Phase dealers carrying the camera, in addition to Leica dealers, but this is not certain right now. Time will tell.." http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
And the real story? As Mr. Farkas says, time will tell. As a side note, just because two companies have a "strategic alliance" does not mean that one company is developing the other's products. Phase One has a strategic alliance with Microsoft, but I don't believe that Microsoft's experienced engineers are producing major portions of Capture One software or that Phase One is a lead developer of Vista.
You can sort out the "truth" among the active posters here. I'm overloaded with other obligations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223689\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And what was the meaning of the Leica-Jenoptik relationship?
Yevgeny
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And what was the meaning of the Leica-Jenoptik relationship?
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was wondering the same. That was announced 3 months ago, iirc.
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". And it sure looks that they have done so for this S2. So now the owner of the Hy6 and the owner of the missing back for that camera are both the supporting pillars of the company trying to make the product competing with MF systems. I cannot get my brain wrapped around it, yet.
The Jenoptik/Leica support-deal was announced last summer:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-und...tik-kooperieren (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-und-Jenoptik-kooperieren)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Sinar 65 and the new Leica are the only MF systems with DNG +Jpeg recording, Phase one does not offer dual recording in their newest backs. Does it mean that Leica has an imaging unit developed by Jenoptik?
Yevgeny
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As to these relationships -
Consider the possibility that Leica is working with Jenoptik for the internals (makes sense - lots of experience there) and with Phase C1 for the reading of the file - which was nicely done with the M8 for color quality.
Why not?
Geoff
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That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.
Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH
The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.
I would love to see the price list!
Cheers,
Willem.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223505\")
Erwin Puts has some comments about the new lenses:
[a href=\"http://www.imx.nl/photo/Analysis/page119/page119.html]http://www.imx.nl/photo/Analysis/page119/page119.html[/url]
The camera body, interesting as this is, does not show truly remarkable features. The lenses on the other hand are very innovative. The high speed of 2.5 is a direct poke in the eye of the classical Hasselblad lens system that starts at 2.8. The medium format lenses are generally weak in the close range performance and the contrast at finer detail definition. The new Leica CS lens line offers excellent image quality at close range and have very high MTF values at 60 lp/mm, sometimes even better than what you get with the current M-lenses. When you combine the lens quality with the sensor size and pixel count, you may expect superior performance.
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Leica also needs to get their stuff back in the rental houses. I tried to rent something in the spring and could not find one place in the US that still carried it. Even contacted LeicaUS to see if they knew of a place.
Nada.
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As to these relationships -
Consider the possibility that Leica is working with Jenoptik for the internals (makes sense - lots of experience there) and with Phase C1 for the reading of the file - which was nicely done with the M8 for color quality.
Why not?
Geoff
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223765\")
Checkout the Leica interview on [a href=\"http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/photokina?t=CM02&a=CM02]Calumet's website[/url]
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James are you trying to get them to send you a free one again...:+}
I do agree with you though.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is no free in the land of digital medium format. For dslrs Nikon is good a loaning stuff, especially if the project warrants it.
Still, looking at those photokina web videos, they would all have a lot more validty if they showed some beautiful photogrpahs from the cameras rather than have a PR guy just talk about it.
In fact speaking of talk, the Leica is produced completely in house, though Jenoptik did the digital part, Phase is the "strategic alliance and software part" but it is completely in-house?
PR guys!
JR
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Checkout the Leica interview on Calumet's website (http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/photokina?t=CM02&a=CM02)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
I have looked at this camera design & I see one glaring problem, the screen. Not the size but too me they have left a lot of the functions on the screen, this is OK in the studio or dull light but not in bright sunlight. For example I was working with the 1dsMKIII outside in the bright Sydney sunlight the other day & I could not see the screen outside to make any judgement calls, ie exposure (If they have the iso on the screen with the Leica you have a BIG problem). With the Canon this is not a problem as you have other readable screens & many other dials & wheels. Personally the Canon is a dream to work with. Why did Leica go with a CCD sensor???????? Why not a CMOS which would give you higher ISOs. If the price is $10000.00 (body) & $2500.00 USD for the lenses I think they have a good chance to get market share. MFD digital is 36x48mm & with the new Phase back the chip is 41x54mm. Now this chip (Leica) is 30x45mm & yes it is bigger than the 24x36mm chip in Canon, Nikon & Sony. So the Leica sits in the middle between 35D & MFD. I am glad that they went with USB. When USB 3.0 comes out it will be 4.8 MP/S & is a far better connection than FW. I have said this before & even mentioned this to a Phase rep since they have a close relationship with Mamiya is to work together & come out with the ZDII camera. The camera is already built with lenses ready to go. Why not put in a 39MP chip (36X48) or get a large CMOS sensor into the ZD body. Surely with Phase & Mamiya working together they could build a much better & updated version of the ZD camera.
Denis
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Mamiya is to work together & come out with the ZDII camera. The camera is already built with lenses ready to go. Why not put in a 39MP chip (36X48) or get a large CMOS sensor into the ZD body. Surely with Phase & Mamiya working together they could build a much better & updated version of the ZD camera.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So, where is it ?
Anything not announced at Photokina is not anywhere near production.
Edmund
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So, where is it ?
Anything not announced at Photokina is not anywhere near production.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
There is no production of the ZDII. I just mentioned to a Phase rep that it would be a good idea since they have a close relationship?
Denis
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If the price is $10000.00 (body) & $2500.00 USD for the lenses I think they have a good chance to get market share. MFD digital is 36x48mm & with the new Phase back the chip is 41x54mm. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Denis,
The prices that are spoken about are basically twice higher both for body and lenses...
At 10.000 US$ I would seriously consider one too...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi
There is no production of the ZDII. I just mentioned to a Phase rep that it would be a good idea since they have a close relationship?
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ah, you mean they should just drop a new chip into it ...
I think a decent chip still costs $1-2K which is too much for a company like Mamiya to fork out.
I would I guess if they're still alive in 4 or 5 years anybody will be able to make a 36x48 chip on a rent-a-fab and then there will be tons of chips and malls of boutique of MF manufacturers springing up.
Edmund
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thinking now two days about the leica i have to say it does not convince me.
looks as its too much in the middle between the big mf chips and the 35mm ff chips,- which even will be one step better in 1 or 1,5 years, at the moment the leica will hit stores.
more so seeing the new 5d2 which impresses me a lot.
sorry me, but i think i would prefer to get the 5d2 than the leica, even if both would cost the same ( of course not thinking in the possible resale value, i say this just from practical standpoint for shooting with it as a " one and only" camera ).
if i`d shoot fashion i would like to have 1.2 or 1.4 lenses and hi isos. if i`d shoot weddings the great movies in the 5d would be an usefull thing as well as the hi iso and the much faster shooting rate and multipoint af. in architecture or landscape i`d like to have a "real" shift system as the artec or the alpa with even much better lenses than any retrofocal construct. if i want big sensors for portrait or product i`d think that 56% more than 35mm size is somehow more, but even the "older" mf format of 36x48mm are 100% larger than 35mm, which is nearly the twice than the leice offers - and these chips will be a lot cheaper at the moment the leica comes. ....
thanks to the discussions here, i became also aware how closed might be a merge of moving and standing images, lets see what comes from red, although the canon videos are really impressive too. cant imagine that the leica will sell good, but clearly this depends a lot of the price too. finally, one time more, the best argument to buy the camera might be the red dot on it.
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thinking now two days about the leica i have to say it does not convince me.
looks as its too much in the middle between the big mf chips and the 35mm ff chips,- which even will be one step better in 1 or 1,5 years, at the moment the leica will hit stores.
more so seeing the new 5d2 which impresses me a lot.
sorry me, but i think i would prefer to get the 5d2 than the leica, even if both would cost the same.
if i`d shoot fashion i would like to have 1.2 or 1.4 lenses and hi isos. if i`d shoot weddings the great movies in the 5d would be an usefull thing as well as the hi iso and the much faster shooting rate and multipoint af. in architecture or landscape i`d like to have a "real" shift system as the artec or the alpa with even much better lenses than any retrofocal construct. if i want big sensors for portrait or product i`d think that 56% more than 35mm size is somehow more, but even the "older" mf format of 36x48mm are 100% larger than 35mm, which is nearly the twice than the leice offers - and these chips will be a lot cheaper at the moment the leica comes. ....
thanks to the discussions here, i became also aware how closed might be a merge of moving and standing images, lets see what comes from red, although the canon videos are really impressive too.
cant imagine that the leica will sell good, but clearly this depends a lot of the price too. finally, one time more, the best argument to buy the camera might be the red dot on it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Well put!
Cheers Denis
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Hi
Well put!
Cheers Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i have to admit that initially after the announcement i felt some craving....but after some reflections i came to the same conclusion: the concept might be outdated before the camera hits the market. most likely nikon will go the 24mpx, canon beyond thirty in their next iteration. my H1 + my upcoming P65+/Leaf A10 will do 55-60 (albeit heavier setup than leica), so what is the leica for after all?
jaust as rainer i feel (for the first time tempted by canon's offering, the 5D mark II. the only problem i see are the canon lenses. i think there is universal agreement that the nikons are superior, at least in the 14-35 mm regime. and, as i said, i do not want to use manual focus on a DSLR. if i really want to focus manually, then on my alpa-DB combo, for the sake of the best achievable quality.
peter
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I think the Rollei Hy6 is a better way to spend my money instead of S2. With Rollei, I have the option to use WLF, which to me is still a better way to shoot people and products. I think Leica will remain a rich man's toy in this new format.
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Hi
Well put!
Cheers Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think in the end the market for such a camera depends on flexibility, and flexibility means fast lenses and/or high ISO. The Leica has neither - for now.
Maybe a CMOS model with super clean 6400 ISO (10MP with binning) would be a game changer, allowing weddings, fashion shows, in and also the quick and easy use of shift lenses for interiors.
For now, the Canon and Nikons allow all of the above albeit at lower quality than MF; which is why the Canon and Nikons are still in the bag of every pro who has MF.
It's going to be a serious issue even for static set-ups. Which would you rather do: Bring in a truck of lights and get it right during the shoot - or have an assistant carry in a couple of suitcases of lights and spend a few hours in post improving the selects ?
Remember that every stop of ISO means ALL THE LIGHTS have to have double power, and weigh twice as much, and cost that much more to rent ... and then neeed generators because they will fry the location electricty. And then the generators need transportation and a place to put them and an assistant to feed them, and it's all because of a couple of stops ISO ...
Well, I guess I shouldn't preach to people who do this every day ...
I predict the 5DII and its successors are going to hit real hard in the video industry where the huge continuous lighting is even more of an issue. They'll reduce the budget for night and interior shots, and also hugely simplify the logistics. WHo cares if the quality is not tops ?
Edmund
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i find it kind of strange, all the talk and comparisons with mfd and ff dslr's and how the leica fits in.
i don't think the leica is in between anything on this, i really think that they have built this around the concept of ultimate image quality in a hand holdable, non studio camera.
i'm really surprised that mamiya, phase didn't do exactly the same thing with the zd camera. it could have been the bridge camera to have. with a phase p31+ technology in it, for a good price and a few refinements it would have sold like crazy.
actually the size of the chip or sensor format is completely irrelevant. this whole leica thing stands on the foundation of the lenses.
no one in their right mind thinks that leica can build a better digital camera than nikon or canon. they can't. it will be slower, have more noise at lower iso setting, worse auto focus, etc. the only thing they can do is what they did with the m8, make a box that takes great lenses and use a good ccd chip and with the help of phase software, put out an amazing file.
the format decision is just good marketing. it pits them against the vunerable, outragiously expensive, underwhelming funtioning mfdb camera makers. that way they'rr on an even playing field and can compete.
we all know that canon, nikon and sony are driving at the meat of the professional market with their new 20+mp cameras. if leica can find an acceptable price point, like hasselblad has done with the h3d II 31 they will have a chance.
as far as the new 50 - 60 mp $40.000 backs and cameras go, i think this will prove to be the worst decision mf camera makers could have made. instead of making their cameras better, and keeping them at a price point that people can actually afford (as canon and nikon have been doing for years) they went nuts and forgot that photographers are mere mortals.
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i find it kind of strange, all the talk and comparisons with mfd and ff dslr's and how the leica fits in.
i don't think the leica is in between anything on this, i really think that they have built this around the concept of ultimate image quality in a hand holdable, non studio camera.
i'm really surprised that mamiya, phase didn't do exactly the same thing with the zd camera. it could have been the bridge camera to have. with a phase p31+ technology in it, for a good price and a few refinements it would have sold like crazy.
actually the size of the chip or sensor format is completely irrelevant. this whole leica thing stands on the foundation of the lenses.
no one in their right mind thinks that leica can build a better digital camera than nikon or canon. they can't. it will be slower, have more noise at lower iso setting, worse auto focus, etc. the only thing they can do is what they did with the m8, make a box that takes great lenses and use a good ccd chip and with the help of phase software, put out an amazing file.
the format decision is just good marketing. it pits them against the vunerable, outragiously expensive, underwhelming funtioning mfdb camera makers. that way they'r on an even playing field and can compete.
we all know that canon, nikon and sony are driving at the meat of the professional market with their new 20+mp cameras. if leica can find an acceptable price point, like hasselblad has done with the h3d II 31 they will have a chance.
as far as the new 50 - 60 mp $40.000 backs and cameras go, i think this will prove to be the worst decision mf camera makers could have made. instead of making their cameras better, and keeping them at a price point that people can actually afford (as canon and nikon have been doing for years) they went nuts and forgot that photographers are mere mortals.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i agree in many points, especially in the last one.
but i dont understand why you think the camera should not be compared with existing solutions. further i am not sure if its clever marketing.
with the R and M one can use at leats the stil lexisting lenses, which many leica users already have.
with the S everything has to be bought new, which brings the price in a completely other level, independent the price of the S body itself.
i.m.o. it would be clever marketing to fix the IR behavor ( i dont be brave enough to say issue ) of the M or invest more to bring out a fullframe M. it never convinced me that it cant be done for the angle the light hits the sensor with wide angles. at least the symmetric schneider wa lenses do the same with mf backs and it works quite well. later they could add some sligthly more retrofocal lenses to the M line ( as the rodenstock HR lenses ) and ask their collectionists, dentists and star shooters some horrendous money for them. i am sure they could sell in this way and repair their fragile reputation, earned with the M8.
also the R lineup is a field where i see future ( maybe ),- but lets see what will happen.
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as far as the new 50 - 60 mp $40.000 backs and cameras go, i think this will prove to be the worst decision mf camera makers could have made. instead of making their cameras better, and keeping them at a price point that people can actually afford (as canon and nikon have been doing for years) they went nuts and forgot that photographers are mere mortals.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you replace keeping them by taking them to, then I agree 100%.
Cheers,
Bernard
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for me, i was at first excited, then i started doing the math, especially when i realized it was a unique format so that meant i'd have to buy a backup body as well. the numbers are quite high.
then i remembered all that filter/magenta mess with the M camera, and I just bet, (as with version 1.0 of anything), there will be problems with the S Leica.
and by the time the S ships, Canon/Nikon will have something mindblowing, and for a tiny fraction of the money.
what does impress me are the LENSES. if they're anything close to my Hasselblad 203FE lenses, which I know they will be, they'll be amazing, even wide open.
but at some point, you've still got to write the check, and as we're seeing, the world is changing. clients are not viewing files at 200% and counting the pixels. in this high pressured world, where clients want to cram as many setups into a shoot day as possible, the main thing for me is a solid working camera that works well tethered. the camera is a tool; it is not a status symbol. the main thing for me is dependability.
to be honest, NONE of these cameras is very exciting to me. none of them. the canon works, but it's still got that 35 vibe to it. the H1 had that mirror slap; the Contax ate batteries and had a tiny dark viewfinder. i still want a camera that feels like a Mamiya 7 in my hands, but has a four inch LCD, and has a 645 frame proportion. (once I realized the Leica was still that awful 35 frame shape, that was the final dagger).
what amazes me is that some Fred Sanford company hasn't come up with an adapter, (or even an original new box camera) that would allow any brand of MF lens to be mounted. to me, it's about the LENS. think of how many RZs are out there; how many Fuji 680's are out there (the best camera ever ever made; i shot it for fifteen years solid; can you say that about any digital camera?). think of the 203FE Hasselblad or even the V Hasselblad. All those great lenses, and so many photographers having them sitting in their closets, PAID FOR and ready to use.
i simply think that this new world economy will NOT support it, enough for any one company to survive. yes, there will be dentists buying the Leica, but enough to actually turn a profit on all that R&D? yes, the p65+ is a great tool, and this Leica system, but it takes a lot of volume to support this. i just don't see it, when the 5DMarkII is $2700. i just don't see it.
i think too, with the Leica thing, there is a Europe vs. America thing going on, similar to what's going on with Sinar. American photographers love the thought of Leica/Sinar, but they simply won't write the check, due to fear of no rental, and no support. It's a perception thing.
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...
but i dont understand why you think the camera should not be compared with existing solutions. further i am not sure if its clever marketing.
with the R and M one can use at leats the stil lexisting lenses, which many leica users already have.
with the S everything has to be bought new, which brings the price in a completely other level, independent the price of the S body itself.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The fact is that Leica simply has no way to compete with canon and nikon (and now sony) on a level playing field. the r was always pretty much a throwback and a dentists camera. the only thing they have going for them is their lens quality, so by taking the camera to a unique level with the mini-mf sensor they are competeing with the h3d II 31, the aptus 65, etc. in a dslr body.
that's clever marketing in my book, because in end effect there is no difference between a digital ff canon file and a phamiya/hy6/h3d file in print. the client sees no difference. it has all come down to flexibility, functionality combined with price becuse the file quality is to all but the pixel peeping few a wash.
as far as the r lenses go, nice to have but every other camera on the playing field has a line of AF lenses...a new r with existing lenses is soooooo far behind the curve it's not even funny. and if they're going to change the whole thing and have new af lenses, well i feel they made a better decision by creating a new marketing devise as well.
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warning! rant coming..
first off I am sick of this association with leica and dentists.. but since it has been brought up..
lets look at dentists.. you know why they can afford a nice new photo toy? well I just took 2 of my kids the other day to a dentist.. and my rough cowboy math says they are billing 5+ grand a day at this office..and they are booked up, I was "lucky" to get them in on a SAT...well you do the math.
I don't think there is a forum for them where they bitch and moan about not being able to buy that new camera to shoot pictures of teeth and you know that has to make a new leica system look like a bargain..you think they are going to eat the expense of upgrading?..Yeah, lets talk dentists..lets work smart like dentists. As a 20+ year member of APA I encourage you all to join this or asmp and work " smart".
This new camera looks to be the creme de la creme of small cameras.. should every tom, dick and harry shooter afford it.. no. So, look in the mirror and ask yourself are you in that top percentage of guys/gals who should even be thinking about this camera..because Leica does not need most of our business for it to succeed, just the best of us and if this forum is a cross section (debatable) then that counts most of us out..So work on your game plan to get a little closer to the folks who bill out 10-100 grand a day(they are out there) and then see if you feel the same about this new camera.
For those of you talented enough and with the business smarts to get those rates and you want to shoot with the canon markwhatever or 5dwhatever great, if it works in your game, perfect, you can use whatever you want, the world is your oyster. But for the rest of us-- don't let envy cloud your assessment of a camera you haven't seen the final specs on or handled!! and if you do want this camera, then find a way to make it pay for itself.. bill everyday for equipment.. even on little no budget jobs for a friend.. put a line item in for 25 bucks.. something to say hey this is part of my expenses..
and I bill for my expenses.
The camera is our most import tool we have as photographers to define us visually in the marketplace.. make it an asset not a liability. and hey, don't even start with "oh my clients won't put up with me charging for that" or " new world economy".." my clients don't care what I shoot with and how many megapixels it has". About 5 years ago I tried repeating to myself " oh my clients don't care about whether I shoot film or digital" ..that didn't last long. We have to complete with others, and we have to put out the best we are capable of if you don't you are out of business.
There is always room at the top, this new leica S2 will prove that.
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In the Farkas Blog I found an interesting comment about the new S lenses:
I saw Peter Karbe and said hello. As many may know, Peter is the head optics designer of Leica, personally responsible for the slew of excellent glass in the last few years. He worked on the 50mm f/1.4 ASPH for ten years to perfect it…in his spare time. Totally brilliant optics designer. We spoke briefly about the new S lenses and wanted to show me the MTF charts for them. He didn’t have them with him, but I am hoping to see them later on in the week. He said that they are perfectly flat lines all the way up to the top, from one side to the other. Apparently, Peter believes these lenses might be the best Leica has ever produced. Now that is saying something.
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
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In the Farkas Blog I found an interesting comment about the new S lenses:
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would love to mount them on my 1DsMk3 or 4 ^^
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These lenses are NOT typical MF lenses. Mamiya and Fuji/Hasselblad are good, no question, but... this is Leica.
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645 Full Frame cameras are much more expensive than the S2.
Hasselblad tried to establish a new (smaller) format based on 36x48 (the 28mm D lens is an example), but finally they were pushed towards the 645 FF model by Phase One/Mamiya. Now they offer "cropped" backs, and future FF backs will be even more expensive. The psychological perception of a "cropped" camera by many customers has some negative bias. Wrong decision?
Due to the same reasons, the 6x6 format of Rollei/Sinar/Leaf will force them to offer a 6x6 FF... In other case you will be "wasting" those 6x6 lenses. Gorgeous and huge format... but very expensive!
Mike Johnston's comments on digital formats are very interesting:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/t...innovation.html (http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2008/09/real-innovation.html)
.
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warning! rant coming..
first off I am sick of this association with leica and dentists.. but since it has been brought up..
lets look at dentists.. you know why they can afford a nice new photo toy? well I just took 2 of my kids the other day to a dentist.. and my rough cowboy math says they are billing 5+ grand a day at this office..and they are booked up, I was "lucky" to get them in on a SAT...well you do the math.
I don't think there is a forum for them where they bitch and moan about not being able to buy that new camera to shoot pictures of teeth and you know that has to make a new leica system look like a bargain..you think they are going to eat the expense of upgrading?..Yeah, lets talk dentists..lets work smart like dentists. As a 20+ year member of APA I encourage you all to join this or asmp and work " smart".
This new camera looks to be the creme de la creme of small cameras.. should every tom, dick and harry shooter afford it.. no. So, look in the mirror and ask yourself are you in that top percentage of guys/gals who should even be thinking about this camera..because Leica does not need most of our business for it to succeed, just the best of us and if this forum is a cross section (debatable) then that counts most of us out..So work on your game plan to get a little closer to the folks who bill out 10-100 grand a day(they are out there) and then see if you feel the same about this new camera.
For those of you talented enough and with the business smarts to get those rates and you want to shoot with the canon markwhatever or 5dwhatever great, if it works in your game, perfect, you can use whatever you want, the world is your oyster. But for the rest of us-- don't let envy cloud your assessment of a camera you haven't seen the final specs on or handled!! and if you do want this camera, then find a way to make it pay for itself.. bill everyday for equipment.. even on little no budget jobs for a friend.. put a line item in for 25 bucks.. something to say hey this is part of my expenses..
and I bill for my expenses.
The camera is our most import tool we have as photographers to define us visually in the marketplace.. make it an asset not a liability. and hey, don't even start with "oh my clients won't put up with me charging for that" or " new world economy".." my clients don't care what I shoot with and how many megapixels it has". About 5 years ago I tried repeating to myself " oh my clients don't care about whether I shoot film or digital" ..that didn't last long. We have to complete with others, and we have to put out the best we are capable of if you don't you are out of business.
There is always room at the top, this new leica S2 will prove that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
in which aspect it will be top in your opinion?
i cant see it, but i`ll wait till i see some images or till the camera will meet the stores.
even in the good ol times when i felt enough talented to use leicas i never could understand the hyteric fits of their users about their uncomparable qualities.
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In the Farkas Blog I found an interesting comment about the new S lenses:
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Quote
(The S2 boasts the ability to simultaneously shoot DNG+JPG in camera, and produce exceptional quality JPGs to boot. Most MFD systems aren’t able to generate decent JPGs in real time. This feature and the ability to shoot 1.5 fps start to separate the S2 from the MFD pack.)
Hi
Is 1.5 fps the shooting speed of the S2?
Denis
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Quote
(The S2 boasts the ability to simultaneously shoot DNG+JPG in camera, and produce exceptional quality JPGs to boot. Most MFD systems aren’t able to generate decent JPGs in real time. This feature and the ability to shoot 1.5 fps start to separate the S2 from the MFD pack.)
Hi
Is 1.5 fps the shooting speed of the S2?
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223949\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
as of today they are saying 1.5fps.. but they were quick to ad that it is still a prototype and some things are not fixed yet..I think they would love it to be 2+fps as a lot of shooters would as well.
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i really think that they have built this around the concept of ultimate image quality in a hand holdable, non studio camera.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Saw the mock-up today. The Contax645 (or Mamiya/Phase) is a lean camera compared to the S-Leica. With a 80mm lens and a Phase back the Contax is even as deep as the S-Leica with one of the two mock-up lenses shown at Photokina (one of it a 70mm if I remember correctly - huge!). So existing MF cameras are as hand holdable as the Leica (as far as the dimensions of the mock up really tell something).
At Phase One someone said that there will be 5 Leica lenses for the Phase One camera in about half a year (for the Phase One, not for the Leica; if it's already mentioned somewhere in this thread... sorry for double post).
As to the prices... maybe offtopic... but just read the new prices of Hasselblad:
Hasselblad H3DII-50 - € 17.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-39 Multishot - € 19.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-39 + HC80 - € 14.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-31 + HC80 - € 11.995,-
So Phase One seems to be alone at (and over) the top with regard to prices.
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Today, to all my clients, I am announcing a new style of photography for my portfolio. I haven't really perfected it, and I don't have it in my portfolio that I could Fedex to them today, but I have an idea of how I might actually perfect it. I will run ads in Archive and Communication Arts, announcing my idea for my new style that one day I might actually be able to show in my portfolio. Maybe by the end of 2009 or so, I might actually have shot one frame and have one print in my book with this new style. But it is vitally important that I announce it now, even though I have nothing concrete to show.
This announcement will make my clients feel certain about my ideas, even though I haven't really produced anything yet. But the most important thing is that I'm talking about my new style, even though I'm not really doing it.
This action today will make clients think good things about me, and my work style.
I can't really take jobs based on this style; maybe by Fall 2009. But the main thing is -- they are talking about me.
My marketing people tell me this is a solid approach to business, and to generating customer loyalty.
This is the Leica way, thus, it must be good.
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in which aspect it will be top in your opinion?
i cant see it, but i`ll wait till i see some images or till the camera will meet the stores.
even in the good ol times when i felt enough talented to use leicas i never could understand the hyteric fits of their users about their uncomparable qualities.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223948\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
boy I thought still-life photographers were staid...
Look, I have not handled the camera so I am only a looker like the rest of us.. I have used their r9/dmr for the past 3 years and have found the camera the best 35mm camera I have ever shot with.. but I never said or would say it is "uncomparable" nor would I describe myself as "hysterical", as you are implying in your statement.
I hope you have found in your career some equipment you have been really happy with, bonded with, tools which used day in and day out mold to you like a custom made leather shoe.. call me weird but I have an affinity with some of my cameras.. I still have a technika that I can't part with because it was part of my style at one time..more than just an optical devise to capture light.. it helped define me as a creative photographer and was an intregal part of the experience of photographing, something which is often lost in the day to day life of a commercial photographer shooting the same old box on white seamless or the same old box on the street corner. As silly as it seems, a new camera or process can shake you out of that bland rut and reignite the passion, .. passion not hysteria. even still-lifers can have it.
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Does anyone know if it uses an AA filter?
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Today, to all my clients, I am announcing a new style of photography for my portfolio. I haven't really perfected it, and I don't have it in my portfolio that I could Fedex to them today, but I have an idea of how I might actually perfect it. I will run ads in Archive and Communication Arts, announcing my idea for my new style that one day I might actually be able to show in my portfolio. Maybe by the end of 2009 or so, I might actually have shot one frame and have one print in my book with this new style. But it is vitally important that I announce it now, even though I have nothing concrete to show.
This announcement will make my clients feel certain about my ideas, even though I haven't really produced anything yet. But the most important thing is that I'm talking about my new style, even though I'm not really doing it.
This action today will make clients think good things about me, and my work style.
I can't really take jobs based on this style; maybe by Fall 2009. But the main thing is -- they are talking about me.
My marketing people tell me this is a solid approach to business, and to generating customer loyalty.
This is the Leica way, thus, it must be good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Don King School of Marketing.
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then i remembered all that filter/magenta mess with the M camera, and I just bet, (as with version 1.0 of anything), there will be problems with the S Leica.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
undoubtedly some teething problems, but with Phase behind it, there wont be the same mess as there was with the M8. I expect that (digital) bit to be very good.
to be honest, NONE of these cameras is very exciting to me. none of them. the canon works, but it's still got that 35 vibe to it. the H1 had that mirror slap; the Contax ate batteries and had a tiny dark viewfinder. i still want a camera that feels like a Mamiya 7 in my hands, but has a four inch LCD, and has a 645 frame proportion. (once I realized the Leica was still that awful 35 frame shape, that was the final dagger).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
agreed Mamiya 7 amazing - we need the ZD2 badly with Phase input
agreed 35mm shape is an error on Leica part - its not a press camera - they made the mistake of keeping a 'traditional' format when they were claiming to be 'new'
also single point AF - a big disappointment- Leica just don't have the expertise to handle multi point AF and compete with the Japanese producers
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undoubtedly some teething problems, but with Phase behind it, there wont be the same mess as there was with the M8. I expect that (digital) bit to be very good.
agreed Mamiya 7 amazing - we need the ZD2 badly with Phase input
agreed 35mm shape is an error on Leica part - its not a press camera - they made the mistake of keeping a 'traditional' format when they were claiming to be 'new'
also single point AF - a big disappointment- Leica just don't have the expertise to handle multi point AF and compete with the Japanese producers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224079\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Those so called Dentist better be buying a lot of HD's to back up all those pretty shot's of teeth..:+]
Snook
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Before anyone gets to excited about the Phase relationship:
Checkout the Leica interview on Calumet's website:
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/photokina?t=CM02&a=CM02 (http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/photokina?t=CM02&a=CM02)
Well known Leica dealer David Farkas (Dale Photo) has an interesting blog from Photokina folks may want check out re: the deal and a hands-on with the S2 (looks sweet).
BUT, there is a LOT (and I mean a LOT) of apparent confusion and miscommunication surfacing between Leica's version of what is happening, Phase's version and each firm's communications to their respective dealer re: relationship:
- Phase indicates Phase tech inside, yet multiple Leica Execs openly state to various interviewers, dealers that it's 100% Leica, Phase relationship started after S2 fully developed and depth of relationship is still very nebulous.
- Phase understands exclusive sales channel, yet Leica (non-Phase) dealers advertising the S2 and taking pre-orders.
- It goes on...
There are also some threads on www.getdpi.com that also discuss/debate/express frustration over the issue.
I'd put a question mark beside the depth of the Phase involvement/support until better and more coherent information from both parties emerges.
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boy I thought still-life photographers were staid...
Look, I have not handled the camera so I am only a looker like the rest of us.. I have used their r9/dmr for the past 3 years and have found the camera the best 35mm camera I have ever shot with.. but I never said or would say it is "uncomparable" nor would I describe myself as "hysterical", as you are implying in your statement.
I hope you have found in your career some equipment you have been really happy with, bonded with, tools which used day in and day out mold to you like a custom made leather shoe.. call me weird but I have an affinity with some of my cameras.. I still have a technika that I can't part with because it was part of my style at one time..more than just an optical devise to capture light.. it helped define me as a creative photographer and was an intregal part of the experience of photographing, something which is often lost in the day to day life of a commercial photographer shooting the same old box on white seamless or the same old box on the street corner. As silly as it seems, a new camera or process can shake you out of that bland rut and reignite the passion, .. passion not hysteria. even still-lifers can have it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223956\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
paul i was not referring my leica critic to you. sorry if i was implying this,- i even wasnt conscient that you shoot with a R9.
i used in my film days several leicas too, aside my linhof 4x5 and 6x17 cameras,- and i liked them a lot especially cause i liked their "feel". but there was some attitude in certain leica forums which was so elitist that i couldnt stand it.
btw.: similar than several months ago the one or other mf contra 35mm treat, there was some talk that a "real" professional or even a real quality demanding photographer needs to use mf tools for it, as if there wouldnt enough great photos shot with 35mm cameras, if thge photographer i a great one. ( beside the funny 35mm users who needed to convince themselves in 1000 posts that there is no need to use mf gear ). i hated all this attitudes and allways thought they are wrong, arrogant and stupid.
( pls. note that i am not referring to you or even to any of the active posters which are here in LL/ Mf at the moment - seems so that most of these guys already have found other places to enjoy.)
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paul i was not referring my leica critic to you. sorry if i was implying this,- i even wasnt conscient that you shoot with a R9.
i used in my film days several leicas too, aside my linhof 4x5 and 6x17 cameras,- and i liked them a lot especially cause i liked their "feel". but there was some attitude in certain leica forums which was so elitist that i couldnt stand it.
btw.: similar than several months ago the one or other mf contra 35mm treat, there was some talk that a "real" professional or even a real quality demanding photographer needs to use mf tools for it, as if there wouldnt enough great photos shot with 35mm cameras, if thge photographer i a great one. ( beside the funny 35mm users who needed to convince themselves in 1000 posts that there is no need to use mf gear ). i hated all this attitudes and allways thought they are wrong, arrogant and stupid.
( pls. note that i am not referring to you or even to any of the active posters which are here in LL/ Mf at the moment - seems so that most of these guys already have found other places to enjoy.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224136\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Okay, I misread you, seems that since I started shooting with leica I have heard way too much talk about only doctors and lawyers shoot with it..I have always came to the defense of the professional quality the camera has..and now it looks they have a real player in the professional market with the S2. I know a lot of guys have the m8 as a secondary camera but very few use it as their main camera system and in this day and age of AF the r9/dmr is oldschool.. but so am I and for a small camera, one you can easily hand hold, it suits me but I always had to go to my mfdb/ rolleiflex or xact if I needed something better..the S2 camera would make redundant the rolleiflex and r9/dmr. but I would still need a traditional view camera.
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What is interesting is the degree of preparation of Leica at Photokina . The stand area Leica is occupying is huge. The S2 area is like a luxury clinic, with VIP backstage passes issued to you, smiling receptionists and a wait in a reception area with a drink until your personal demonstrator is free. This is clealry a first class professional PR operation.
Concerning the S2 itself, again the degree of preparation is considerable. The bodies don't look like prototypes, they feel like production models. The finish is impeccable. My impression is that mechanical tooling is in place, and the production line for the body mechanics and lens mechanics is being used already for what are called prototypes.
As for the product itself, pricing will be based on the equivalent Hasselblad (same MP) I am told. Lenses are still being developed, in particular a fast portrait lens. Leica definitely see this as a carry around camera, built for hard weather and knocks.
My own impression is that the camera and its lenses feel too large. This is not a lightweight by any standard. In the end, I think the S2 will stand or fall based on its high ISO ability, and the quality of the AF. In any case, I'm pretty sure that production is going to get ramped up competently, and the body price will be almost affordable.
Edmund
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I just wish to say as much:
Jenoptik has not "done so" for the Leica S2, which is a 100% Leica "in-house" development.
Best regards,
Thierry
Interestingly, Leica has also formed a "strategic alliance" with... Jenoptik! Jenoptik is supposed to assist with "development, integration, manufacturing and delivery of parts for digital image processing". And it sure looks that they have done so for this S2. So now the owner of the Hy6 and the owner of the missing back for that camera are both the supporting pillars of the company trying to make the product competing with MF systems. I cannot get my brain wrapped around it, yet.
The Jenoptik/Leica support-deal was announced last summer:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-und...tik-kooperieren (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-und-Jenoptik-kooperieren)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
If this is the case, what exactly does Leica need Jenoptik for?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224414\")
EPd,
I guess this should be asked to Leica directly, isn't it? My role is to put things straight when somebody speaks about Jenoptik, especially if not right, not explaining Leica's needs and strategies.
And now that you are in clarification mode, would you please be so kind to comment on this posting of mine: [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28104&view=findpost&p=224140]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=224140[/url]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224414\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
May be the same answer as above: ask F&H concerning your post. I have given the information I (Sinar) have about the different products available or to come.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Maybe Leica is using Jenoptic's services for projects other than the S2? R10, lower priced rangefinder are just two projects rumored to be in the works. Could it also be possible that Leica did the design but needs help with manufacturing?
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Thierry,
Let me rephrase my question then: what exactly is Jenoptik doing for Leica?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
EPd,
I have nothing to add to what I have said, otherwise I would have said it by now.
And as for my other question: does this cable release for the Sinar Hy6 have mirror lockup or not?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The cable does not have a classical mirror-lock-up, HOWEVER:
- when used in "ultra-fast mode", a push down locks the mirror up (and prepares all functions) and releasing the knob then releases the camera.
- in normal function, the cable release does activate the AF with the first push, then release.
Best regards,
Thierry
Have some nice days overthere in Cologne!
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks EPd, we do have very nice days, even if busy. Such an exhibition as Photokina is always a nice time, definitively, being it only to meet some people you have not seen for a long time.
Best regards,
Thierry
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From David Farkas' blog, about Hasselblad lenses:
I took a look at the new HCD 35-90mm f/4-5.6 zoom lens. Reading about the tech in this lens is interesting. It is only for use with “full frame 48mm” and the designers knowingly created the lens with increased distortion and vignetting. The new Hassy philosophy seems to be that we’ll just fix it in post, a la digital lens correction. Seems a bit fishy, especially at this price ($6,999 USD).
http://www.dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://www.dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
.
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From David Farkas' blog, about Hasselblad lenses:
http://www.dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://www.dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224754\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think people are forgetting that lens design requires balancing the distortions and aberrations that the laws of Physics dictate. Perhaps the designers of these lenses decided to allow more distortion, which they know they can correct in software, in order to better control another aberration they cannot correct.
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David Farkas:
Speaking of fishy… in the pro demo studio area a photographer and food stylist were photographing smelly raw fish. With large LCD suspended from the ceiling for the audience to watch the action top-down it felt more like a cooking show that a photo demonstration. The concept was interesting, but the smell was a bit much.
Obviously this guy is an ignorant. Why do I say that? Because ignorants are so sure of their own truth that they don't even do a little research before they shot.
The fish thing is related to the video shooting (Operation Food) they have had on the Victor website for more than a year.
This type of practice is called good marketing.
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Some Swedes do love their surstromming.
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Some Swedes do love their surstromming.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hope It wasn't that what they were shooting there!
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Is there a MSRP or "Street Price" List for the Leica S2 Camera Body, Lenses, Etc. posted yet?
Thanks,
Joe
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Is there a MSRP or "Street Price" List for the Leica S2 Camera Body, Lenses, Etc. posted yet?
Thanks,
Joe
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=225260\")
I found $45,000.00 for the body only, from Wired:
[a href=\"http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/09/leica-s2-reinve.html]http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/09/leica-s2-reinve.html[/url]
And a much better story here, and a stab at $30K
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1222235975.html (http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1222235975.html)
seriously.
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With an August 2009 delivery goal, I doubt any price now would be worthwhile for many reasons.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Before every photokina the process has always been a flurry of press releases, then during the show a new batch of new press releases about strategic alliances with not a lot of new working product being shown, then months go by and the answer is check with your dealer who will give you a lot of second hand information about what, when, where, how much, how soon, etc. etc. etc.
Then the airwaves go dead for a few more months.
If Photokina got you hot to buy, you couldn't get most of it today though I'm sure everybody will take a "deposit".
What a wasted sales effort.
I get the impression that Photokina is just a place all the makers and dealers meet to cut deals and except for hasselblad, the only deals anyone cuts is with each other. I think they'd sell more product if they thought about cutting those deals to the end user. Maybe Hasselblad is on to something, but knowing the world of medium format the competition will probably just repsond by making a new series of e-mail blasts and pdfs.
It's like a celebrity photo shoot where the photographer, makeup artist, hair stylist and subject are all the stars. Everybody tosses out names, talks about the "industry" says how fab everything is but at the end of the day, they forget they are selling bras, jeans, or shoes.
The process IS the event and becomes more important than selling the actual product.
Consequently Saturday I was at a small sized camera dealer, (I'm talking a one counter store) and it was packed with people buying Nikon D300's and lenses. And not just the cheap lenses either, but those new Nikon zooms and the 200 F2. Every person was leaving with gold boxes under their arms and if the Canon 5d2 was for sale I'm sure their would have been just as many black boxes going out the door.
If this is a down economy you wouldn't know it by watching the activity in this small store.
One of the customers was a ceo of a large corporation and and it didn't seem money was an issue. He asked about the Leica and the dealer just said it's not available for at least a year, he asked about the hasselblad and the dealer said they don't carry them. I doubt if he knows the name Phase, Sinar or Leaf. So he bought a D3 and a bunch of lenses and he did this in about 10 minutes. About $18,000 in ten minutes.
JR
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Before every photokina the process has always been a flurry of press releases, then during the show a new batch of new press releases about strategic alliances with not a lot of new working product being shown, then months go by and the answer is check with your dealer who will give you a lot of second hand information about what, when, where, how much, how soon, etc. etc. etc.
Then the airwaves go dead for a few more months.
If Photokina got you hot to buy, you couldn't get most of it today though I'm sure everybody will take a "deposit".
What a wasted sales effort.
I get the impression that Photokina is just a place all the makers and dealers meet to cut deals and except for hasselblad, the only deals anyone cuts is with each other. I think they'd sell more product if they thought about cutting those deals to the end user. Maybe Hasselblad is on to something, but knowing the world of medium format the competition will probably just repsond by making a new series of e-mail blasts and pdfs.
It's like a celebrity photo shoot where the photographer, makeup artist, hair stylist and subject are all the stars. Everybody tosses out names, talks about the "industry" says how fab everything is but at the end of the day, they forget they are selling bras, jeans, or shoes.
The process IS the event and becomes more important than selling the actual product.
Consequently Saturday I was at a small sized camera dealer, (I'm talking a one counter store) and it was packed with people buying Nikon D300's and lenses. And not just the cheap lenses either, but those new Nikon zooms and the 200 F2. Every person was leaving with gold boxes under their arms and if the Canon 5d2 was for sale I'm sure their would have been just as many black boxes going out the door.
If this is a down economy you wouldn't know it by watching the activity in this small store.
One of the customers was a ceo of a large corporation and and it didn't seem money was an issue. He asked about the Leica and the dealer just said it's not available for at least a year, he asked about the hasselblad and the dealer said they don't carry them. I doubt if he knows the name Phase, Sinar or Leaf. So he bought a D3 and a bunch of lenses and he did this in about 10 minutes. About $18,000 in ten minutes.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225520\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe just a false security as they seem have bailed out the corporate bone heads who screwed everything up.
If congress would not have bailed them out, I am not so sure so many tiny gold boxes would have been flying out the dorr..:+}
Snook
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Kaufmann said "we will try to be at less than 15.000 euros".
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Kaufmann said "we will try to be at less than 15.000 euros".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225567\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leica told me they would try to match Hassy on price, at equivalent pixels.
Edmund
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Well, nobody got bailed out today; maybe that, too, is just another mind-game...
Rob C
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Well, nobody got bailed out today; maybe that, too, is just another mind-game...
Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What, you're miffed that America's little excursion into socialism has been delayed ?
I thought we in Europe had a lock on socialism now that the soviets and china have given up on it.
Edmund
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Leica told me they would try to match Hassy on price, at equivalent pixels.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225605\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The price point that Leica says it would like to meet---a Hasselblad with comparable MP--- would be the price of a Hasselblad H3DII-39, which has now been educed to US $22,000. By way of comparison, the Phase/Mamiya camera with a P45+ back is $32,500, the Leaf AFI 7 is $37,500 (or $38,800 with a 90 deg. finder), the Sinar Hy6 with 33MP back is $32,000(price of 90 degree finder=????). I wonder if the Leica CEO was thinking of the "old" price of an H3DII-39.
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The price of the Hasselblad H3DIII-31 is 12.000 euros.
Considering the last (reduced) prices of Hasselblad prices, Leica should place the S2 price between 10.000 and 15.000 euros.
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There's been a lot of ranting about high priced Leicas, MFDBs and dentists etc...
Do you think Leica might actually realise that there are a LOT more people who will buy a high end camera purely as a status symbol (think Rolex demographic) than there are professional photographers who can justify a 50K+ camera purely on ROI criteria?
One of the 'eye openers' on one of my recent workshops was the gear owned by some of my clients, in this case a dentist (really) and an ad agency owner. They had all the best gear, and I mean all. Between them they had well over 200K in gear - H3D2-39s, D3s, 1Ds3s. M8s and loads of lenses. They were interested in photography, had the money to indulge themselves and like to own 'the best' stuff. Nothing wrong with that.
I had no camera with me, apart from a loan 1Ds3 in case of breakdowns, and my co-instructor had a Mamiya Press (!).
I say 'so what' if a camera costs a bucketload of cash? Buy it if you can afford it, don't if you can't. Pros do not need the best, they need the most appropriate for their business - the right gear is not necessarily the best gear.
I wonder if there is a forum for taxi drivers bemoaning the prices of the latest BMW, whilst they drive Fords.
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The price of the Hasselblad H3DIII-31 is 12.000 euros.
Considering the last (reduced) prices of Hasselblad prices, Leica should place the S2 price between 10.000 and 15.000 euros.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225654\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm guessing that since the S2 is 37.5mp, Leica is looking at the H3DIII-39 as their pricing benchmark.
I hope that Phase and Leaf are paying attention...
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The H3DIII-31 has the same sensor size than the S2 (more or less).
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I'm guessing that since the S2 is 37.5mp, Leica is looking at the H3DIII-39 as their pricing benchmark.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I expect Kodak and Dalsa to offer their new 6 micron pixel technology in the smaller 44x33mm formats too, producing about 40MP (7333x5500) sensors similar in size and production cost to the 45x30mm sensor of the S2. And Kodak will probably equip its new 44x33mm sensors with micro-lenses, as in its current 44x33mm sensors and the new 45x30mm for Leica.
Then the S2 will probably compete with new 44x33mm models, at least on production costs and sensor performance. But the Leica S system might have a big advantage from its better match of lens format and focal length choices to sensor format, compared to using a 44x33mm sensor with a lens system adapted to 56x42mm or even 56x56mm.
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I expect Kodak and Dalsa to offer their new 6 micron pixel technology in the smaller 44x33mm formats too, producing about 40MP (7333x5500) sensors similar in size and production cost to the 45x30mm sensor of the S2. And Kodak will probably equip its new 44x33mm sensors with micro-lenses, as in its current 44x33mm sensors and the new 45x30mm for Leica.
Then the S2 will probably compete with new 44x33mm models, at least on production costs and sensor performance. But the Leica S system might have a big advantage from its better match of lens format and focal length choices to sensor format, compared to using a 44x33mm sensor with a lens system adapted to 56x42mm or even 56x56mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225775\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is a good point.
The price differences between formats will not be too large in any case, but sensor size and lenses format make a difference for sure.
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I like the S2. It is very simple, and might just be fun to use. I'm fairly certain that it will do my usual print size with no effort (40x30"). And the Leica cakes at Photokina were really good.
In the end, Leica, Hasselblad, Sinar, Phase, who cares ? It's all about the images ...
Edmund
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Would I love a P21+ back duct-taped onto the back of a 1ds3 body? Absolutely, but it's not gonna happen.
It would be kinda interesting to see what kinds of images would come out with that workflow, ie. Canon lens, Canon CMOS, Canon LCD, P21+ at point-blank. The sensor is smaller than the LCD, so there would be a crop factor
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Does anyone know if it uses an AA filter?
No AA filter.
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I'm sure the lenses will be sharp and the build quality will be excellent, but if the m8 is any indication the lenses will need calibration and it will be 5 firmware updates until they get the color right.
I don't think this will be the case. First of all, different CEO, and the new one is also the owner, and had to go through the pain of fixing everything which went wrong.
Secondly, the rangefinder in the M cameras is an ancient, mechanical wonder made by gnomes under the mountains in fairytale land, and the lenses move the focus via a shaped metal ramp, a little off-center wheel, a metal arm, and a multiple of other tiny components, any one of which can be knocked out of alignment by a mild bump. I love my M8 and those lenses are to kill for, but I would love a better, more stable focusing system. The S2 won't repeat this weird setup. And don't forget, Leica invented autofocus (I am pretty sure). They dropped it because they thought their customers wouldn't want it. Boy were they wrong, but that was back then.
Thirdly, while Leica has been very adamant that the S2 is 100% Leica, Phase One and Jenoptik are not there for show only. Leica is expanding like crazy, bringing all the Solms people and buildings back to Wetzlar where it all started, buying up little German specialist companies and integrating them in Leica, and they are really ramping up for something big. The new German-born owner is one of the richest people in Austria, and is a dyed-in-the-wool Leica fanatic himself, so you know his heart is in this, and not in the stock price or somesuch. My personal guess is that Phase One and Jenoptik are consulting with Leica. Things backfired with the DMR and Imacon, so this time, I am certain that there are behind-the-scenes deals about what Leica does and does not market, and this time they want to learn how to do everything themselves, to avoid the DMR firmware debacle. Phase One is apparently getting Leica lenses for the Phamiya, so you know that Leica and Phase aren't joking. That is serious IP there, and Leica has never gone so far before (Panasonic doesn't count here; another class). This isn't just about Capture One.
I guess none of us are old enough to remember this, but Leica was at the top of the heap some decades ago. Such memories (and losses) live long in the German psyche, and I do believe that it is Dr. Kaufmann's intention to get Leica back on top.
I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become. Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past.
Given how closely the Leica news were guarded up until the last few days this time, I am pretty sure that they did not tell us all their spectacular news 9 months in advance of the first product. They are incredibly secretive at the moment, and this pre-announcement just doesn't fit that pattern. I suspect two things: first of all, Dr. Kaufmann stated on the record that the price (sadly I don't know if this is for the kit or the body) would be between 10.000-20.000 Euro, and that they hope to keep the price below 15.000 Euro. He would never say that unless they were almost positive that they can keep the price below 15.000 Euro, IMO, but maybe they are in fact intending to shoot for 10K? That would be a real coup, and in line with the rest of the news. Secondly, I expect that they have been holding back on lens specs, to see what the reaction would be. I suspect that they will throw in a couple of real pearls at release.
I do believe that the real intention here is to show the world that, given a clean sheet, Leica can out-design the rest of the world, including companies like Hasselblad. The R+DMR was hampered by a lineup of manual-focus lenses and a body designed for film, plus a lack of funding. The M8 was hampered by a brilliant lineup of expensive lenses which throw the light at the sensor at very oblique angles. The S2 will have no such issues. Given Leica's love of the simple and direct, I expect that this camera will be a joy to use, and will spawn a whole new generation of super-annoying Leica fanatics. I hope to be one of them.
I don't know if they will succeed, but this is what I think they are trying. Good luck to them!
Ah, I forgot to mention, Leica appears to be taking a different direction with these lenses, one which may mean that they can manufacture them cheaper than in the past. For one, they are re-using optical and mechanical components in various lenses, and secondly, there are no crazy 50mm f/0.95 or 21mm f/1.4 lenses here, just solid, useful designs. We'll see.
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I don't think this will be the case. First of all, different CEO, and the new one is also the owner, and had to go through the pain of fixing everything which went wrong.
Secondly, the rangefinder in the M cameras is an ancient, mechanical wonder made by gnomes under the mountains in fairytale land, and the lenses move the focus via a shaped metal ramp, a little off-center wheel, a metal arm, and a multiple of other tiny components, any one of which can be knocked out of alignment by a mild bump. I love my M8 and those lenses are to kill for, but I would love a better, more stable focusing system. The S2 won't repeat this weird setup. And don't forget, Leica invented autofocus (I am pretty sure). They dropped it because they thought their customers wouldn't want it. Boy were they wrong, but that was back then.
Thirdly, while Leica has been very adamant that the S2 is 100% Leica, Phase One and Jenoptik are not there for show only. Leica is expanding like crazy, bringing all the Solms people and buildings back to Wetzlar where it all started, buying up little German specialist companies and integrating them in Leica, and they are really ramping up for something big. The new German-born owner is one of the richest people in Austria, and is a dyed-in-the-wool Leica fanatic himself, so you know his heart is in this, and not in the stock price or somesuch. My personal guess is that Phase One and Jenoptik are consulting with Leica. Things backfired with the DMR and Imacon, so this time, I am certain that there are behind-the-scenes deals about what Leica does and does not market, and this time they want to learn how to do everything themselves, to avoid the DMR firmware debacle. Phase One is apparently getting Leica lenses for the Phamiya, so you know that Leica and Phase aren't joking. That is serious IP there, and Leica has never gone so far before (Panasonic doesn't count here; another class). This isn't just about Capture One.
I guess none of us are old enough to remember this, but Leica was at the top of the heap some decades ago. Such memories (and losses) live long in the German psyche, and I do believe that it is Dr. Kaufmann's intention to get Leica back on top.
Given how closely the Leica news were guarded up until the last few days this time, I am pretty sure that they did not tell us all their spectacular news 9 months in advance of the first product. They are incredibly secretive at the moment, and this pre-announcement just doesn't fit that pattern. I suspect two things: first of all, Dr. Kaufmann stated on the record that the price (sadly I don't know if this is for the kit or the body) would be between 10.000-20.000 Euro, and that they hope to keep the price below 15.000 Euro. He would never say that unless they were almost positive that they can keep the price below 15.000 Euro, IMO, but maybe they are in fact intending to shoot for 10K? That would be a real coup, and in line with the rest of the news. Secondly, I expect that they have been holding back on lens specs, to see what the reaction would be. I suspect that they will throw in a couple of real pearls at release.
I do believe that the real intention here is to show the world that, given a clean sheet, Leica can out-design the rest of the world, including companies like Hasselblad. The R+DMR was hampered by a lineup of manual-focus lenses and a body designed for film, plus a lack of funding. The M8 was hampered by a brilliant lineup of expensive lenses which throw the light at the sensor at very oblique angles. The S2 will have no such issues. Given Leica's love of the simple and direct, I expect that this camera will be a joy to use, and will spawn a whole new generation of super-annoying Leica fanatics. I hope to be one of them.
I don't know if they will succeed, but this is what I think they are trying. Good luck to them!
Ah, I forgot to mention, Leica appears to be taking a different direction with these lenses, one which may mean that they can manufacture them cheaper than in the past. For one, they are re-using optical and mechanical components in various lenses, and secondly, there are no crazy 50mm f/0.95 or 21mm f/1.4 lenses here, just solid, useful designs. We'll see.
wow carstenw, that was some speech, discourse or whatever.. my right arm kept involuntarily going up in the air.. I think you see this as I do.. red and black are destined to have new meaning.. long live the red dot.
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What I like about the S2 is its simplicity.
I expect the S2 will be joined quickly by a 35mm brother.
Leica told me they have a fast portrait lens under design.
What remains to be seen is whether the S2 can really make better images than the 5DII on location. This is not obvious at all.
The Canons have a super-fast sensor, a very complete AF system, and some fast lenses that are world class (85/1.2).
At the moment I'm using a Sony TG3E video camera as a still device, and the ease of use, tele lens and stabilisation are frighteningly good - competition for existing devices may not come from the obvious places.
Edmund
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wow carstenw, that was some speech, discourse or whatever.. my right arm kept involuntarily going up in the air.. I think you see this as I do.. red and black are destined to have new meaning.. long live the red dot.
that saved my day...and I'm german
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Well said Carsten
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wow carstenw, that was some speech, discourse or whatever.. my right arm kept involuntarily going up in the air.. I think you see this as I do.. red and black are destined to have new meaning.. long live the red dot.
HA HA! Wow, that is what I was thinking. Do you think someone will INFORM if they see I cover the RED and BLACK of the Leica crest on my M4P and M6 with electrical tape? I just want to keep my nose clean under the new regime.
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What remains to be seen is whether the S2 can really make better images than the 5DII on location. This is not obvious at all.
5DII: 14 bits per pixel, AA filter, 24mm x 36mm, 22 MP, lens quality roulette
S2: 16 bits per pixel, no AA filter, 30mm x 45mm, 37.5 MP, lenses with MTF "curves" hugging the top of the MTF chart.
Hmmmmm.....
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5DII: 14 bits per pixel, AA filter, 24mm x 36mm, 22 MP, lens quality roulette
S2: 16 bits per pixel, no AA filter, 30mm x 45mm, 37.5 MP, lenses with MTF "curves" hugging the top of the MTF chart.
Hmmmmm.....
5DII on Location: Just Works. The tool gets out of your way.
S2 on Location if its anything like the M8: Shoot for a while, have a problem tethering, stop. take out teh battery, try to tell the talent jokes, self deprecating remarks as the client comes over and asks "Is there a Problem?" Camera unlocks but now all images are green tinted, and the blacks are magenta. At this point you pull out the Canon 5d2 and finish the job, the client gets the images and doesn't know the difference.
That's why the question was which one would do a better job "on location".
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that saved my day...and I'm german
I am not, although I *am* living in Berlin. I am a Leica fan though, borderline annoying, and I do believe that this company, with this management, will be able to pull off something non-trivial. They have done it before, and of course, it helps having the world's best lens designers under your roof. This is one reason Mamiya et al will never really be able to pull away from the rest. Their lenses are good, but not better than anyone else's. In the end it is all about the lenses. Sensor tech is already stabilizing slowly, like film did once upon a time. Workflow is the wild card, I suppose. Erm, and reliability
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5DII on Location: Just Works. The tool gets out of your way.
S2 on Location if its anything like the M8: Shoot for a while, have a problem tethering, stop. take out teh battery, try to tell the talent jokes, self deprecating remarks as the client comes over and asks "Is there a Problem?" Camera unlocks but now all images are green tinted, and the blacks are magenta. At this point you pull out the Canon 5d2 and finish the job, the client gets the images and doesn't know the difference.
That's why the question was which one would do a better job "on location".
Then how about getting some field reliability data instead of making assumptions? If I were to assume all Canon lenses performed as well as the ones I'm familiar with, I'd be shocked that anyone would want to use them at all (obviously my samples were sub-par). The S2 and the M8 are entirely different, developed by different teams under different management. I believe that an assumption regarding the usability of one based on early samples of the other is simply prejudicial. The numerous prototype S2 cameras on hand at Photokina exhibited no problems despite being handled and used by hundreds of Photokina visitors.
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Leica told me they have a fast portrait lens under design.
See, they announced a 100/2.5 or 100/3.5, depending on the source, non-CS, but that just makes no sense to me. If they want to beat the world, they have to take on lenses like the Zeiss 110/2, and this means, for this sensor, a 100/2, at least. I believe that they will shoot for this, or better.
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I have absolutely no doubt that the image quality of the S2 is going to fantastic. My concern is about service. There are few shops that can deal with even the older cameras and I hear they haven't done any training to independent shops for anything modern. I took my r8 into a local shop with a sticky mirror - guy couldn't do it so sent it in to Leica. 3 months later I had my camera back - not repaired! Had to send it back in to leica directly and waited two more months. Yes I didn't have a back up but bought one immediately second hand, but it had an exposure metering problem and didn't mate well with my DMR and would have to have focus calibrated so sent it back. That was frustrating and while my DMR was sitting there waiting for the body to come back I contemplated selling it several times and probably should have. But the DMR images sing and its a joy to use - just a pleasure to work with however I wouldn't consider using it as my only camera and typically only bring it along with another camera to a shoot. After having this experience with the DMR and reading everyone's experiences with the M8 I doubt I'll buy the S2 or will wait at least until its been out for a while and proven. Carsten, I don't blame you for being a Leica loyalist, but thinking its going to be different this time seems overly optimistic. Even Canon has issues with some of their cameras on launch. The 1Ds2 lost files, and there have been all kinds of focus issues.
The great thing about the DMR and the M8 was that there were tons of used lenses out there all of which were really high optical quality even the older ones. That made getting into a system more affordable and less risk. No doubt the S2 lenses will be great, but what are they going to cost? $3k each, $5k each or more? I can easily see higher. That's my second concern - cost.
You can go get a RZ kit now with a whole set of lenses for like $5k for everything. I picked up 2 PQ lenses and an extender for my Rollei for $400 and these will work fine on the Hy6/AFi I just can't imagine that the leica glass is going to be that much better to make it worth it. When you compare the leica 35mm format lenses to canon it's pretty obvious how much better they are, but MF has a lot of very high quality systems and I don't think the differences will be all that great. Currently it appears that quite a lot of my Rollei lenses are out resolving my sensor - so another question is would you be able to see it anyhow? I hope it turns out to be everything we are lead to believe, but until its real and we've seen some samples I'm going to remain a skeptic.
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Carsten, I don't blame you for being a Leica loyalist, but thinking its going to be different this time seems overly optimistic. Even Canon has issues with some of their cameras on launch. The 1Ds2 lost files, and there have been all kinds of focus issues.
I don't consider myself a Leica loyalist, nor an apologist, and I find it incredibly frustrating to watch Leica's service train crash in slow motion, but the signs coming out of Solms are different these days, it would be hard to miss. I think that they are taking this way more seriously than we are guessing, from top to bottom. I don't expect perfection, but I do hope for, and expect, a system which one can live with, and no multi-month waits.
By the way, there are rumours of a Leica pro service which isn't advertised that well, where one gets better service. Have you looked into this (and by looked into, I mean asked someone at Solms, not New Jersey)?
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By the way, there are rumours of a Leica pro service which isn't advertised that well, where one gets better service. Have you looked into this (and by looked into, I mean asked someone at Solms, not New Jersey)?
Yeah, I heard this too.
A Leica brochure was just delivered to my mailbox. Beautifully produced for the commercial part. Wonderful detail of the system. Mediocre sample images, sample layout and bad prepress color work. Blocked shadows, bad color, no detail.
Edmund
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Yeah, I heard this too.
A Leica brochure was just delivered to my mailbox. Beautifully produced for the commercial part. Wonderful detail of the system. Mediocre sample images, sample layout and bad prepress color work. Blocked shadows, bad color, no detail.
Edmund
Of the S2?
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Of the S2?
Brochure of the whole system, including S2. Images from *existing* cameras.
I like all the Leica imagery & layout a lot, but not the sample imagery.
Edmund
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By the way, there are rumours of a Leica pro service which isn't advertised that well, where one gets better service. Have you looked into this (and by looked into, I mean asked someone at Solms, not New Jersey)?
I did ask them about it at Leica NJ but they sort of just ignored questions regarding a pro service. Either I'm not special enough for them or they didn't have such a program. Leica NJ is operating in the past - I mean way past - Some three weeks after I sent in my camera (foolishly by Fedex thinking this would speed things up) I received a regular snail mail estimate of what the camera would need - with the expectation that I would happily complete this form and return it by snail mail authorizing the repairs so they could begin work. And I guess since they knew the letter was coming they felt they didn't need to return any of my phone calls or emails inquiring what the status of the repair was. It was clear they did not begin work right after receiving this authorization because it took about 2 months more to get the camera back. Not sure if I mentioned this but even Rollei/Hensel service in NJ can e-mail me a complete estimate in pdf which I can authorize the same instant. Of course I can also do this easily over the phone. Onick at Rollei Hensel is awesome - at one point he even mentioned to me that he would check on my leica for me since he knew some of the people over there (both shops are in the same area). Leica on the other hand was hit and miss even trying to reach either by e-mail or phone. Leica service is just totally unacceptable. Forever to fix, no communication, antiquated methods, and apparently vastly understaffed.
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Leica Solms seems to be expanding and rehiring old employees. I think they will have an ok service system within a few months.
But in the end, nothing can beat a 5DII, with a 5DII backup
Edmund
vastly understaffed.
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But in the end, nothing can beat a 5DII, with a 5DII backup
Erm, right, this is why you hang out in a MF forum, right?
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Thierry
Erm, right, this is why you hang out in a MF forum, right?
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Thierry
Yes, Thierry, I find that Canon CPS has the best lend and repair program.
My Mamiya has problems, I paid for a VA on the Phase back, but my dealer sees no reason to lend me another camera for the three weeks it takes to repair a Mamiya from France. It takes one day to repair it in Germany. My dealer - Le Moyen Format in Paris - is history as far as I'm concerned. I'll have the camera adjusted when I'm in Munich or Tokyo. And the next camera I am buying is a 5DII. I've had enough of the MF dealer system.
Edmund
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But in the end, nothing can beat a 5DII
Yes, we are all idiots in here. Enjoy your AA filter, mushy lenses, slow flash sync, small viewfinder, brittle files, 'Canon' colour, 8.5 stops of DR, 'only' 21 MP, 2:3 aspect ratio, poor tethered performance, limited tilt/shift options and who could forget the direct print button (http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/graemlins/xyxwave.gif)
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Edmund,
Hearing/reading you one could believe that MF is "evil". I can assure you that they are good guys/dealers as well as bad guys. I don't know "Le Moyen Format" in Paris, but I remember that at the beginning you very highly speaking about them, if I'm right. And as far I could understand from other Phase dealers, that's not the usual experience with Phase dealers nor with Sinar dealers. I am sure that if your request would be justified (to get a free loaner) and you have a VA on it, you should get it: otherwise it is a breach of contract, isn't it?
Well, with Sinar you don't need a VA, we usually are flexible enough, when justified, to help customers out of trouble situations.
Best regards,
Thierry
Yes, Thierry, I find that Canon CPS has the best lend and repair program.
My Mamiya has problems, I paid for a VA on the Phase back, but my dealer sees no reason to lend me another camera for the three weeks it takes to repair a Mamiya from France. It takes one day to repair it in Germany. My dealer - Le Moyen Format in Paris - is history as far as I'm concerned. I'll have the camera adjusted when I'm in Munich or Tokyo. And the next camera I am buying is a 5DII. I've had enough of the MF dealer system.
Edmund
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Edmund,
Hearing/reading you one could believe that MF is "evil". I can assure you that they are good guys/dealers as well as bad guys. I don't know "Le Moyen Format" in Paris, but I remember that at the beginning you very highly speaking about them, if I'm right. And as far I could understand from other Phase dealers, that's not the usual experience with Phase dealers nor with Sinar dealers. I am sure that if your request would be justified (to get a free loaner) and you have a VA on it, you should get it: otherwise it is a breach of contract, isn't it?
Well, with Sinar you don't need a VA, we usually are flexible enough, when justified, to help customers out of trouble situations.
Best regards,
Thierry
It's a perfectly legal point of view. Only the back has the VA warranty on it. So I'm only entitled to contractual warranty on the Mamiya - oh, but Mamiya happen not to be able to service a shutter in France anymore, and returns have to go through the shipping of the local distributor and that takes three weeks. Too bad, then. The dealer system is fundamentally flawed, except for the guys in Atlanta. I've just shot multiples for a few months now, to make sure I have the shot when I need it.
Edmund
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I wish Leica everything good. Every new camera on the market is good to everybody. There is nothing better that competition. But this time - P L E A S E B U I L D camera that we can take a picture in the day that we can buy it. Don't repeat mistake that you do with M8 !!!
Freak
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............ But this time - P L E A S E B U I L D camera that we can take a picture in the day that we can buy it. Don't repeat mistake that you do with M8 !!!
Freak
Frank, with all due respect to you, didn't you hear that they are in partnership with Phase, so this is quite norm.
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"That's why we, at Leica camera, are investing heavily in professional customer service and new sales concepts. By the way, we're doing this, working closely with our new corporation partner Phase One. So Leica camera is establishing itself for the long term with the S System in the professional segment. You, the professional photographer, want the perfect picture. We, we've created the perfect tool for you."
Dr. Andreas Kaufmann
I think it will be interesting to see what shakes out of this.
Mike.