Leica's new MF system

[paulmoorestudio]

thanks paul. maybe you are right- the "one camera for all" idea.
i only have a leaf with 22mp, so obviously this will blow it away mp wise. but i was planning to get a used p45 asap (unless i get lured into something else).

there are many shots that i just couldnt live with out the canon. i really do need 5fps and i need a camera that has many focus points, and actually has water housings available for it. not to mention f1.2 50 and 85.
if i got a leica, maybe the quality would render the h1 not needed, but definately not the canon.
but i would miss the waist level finder of the h1.

the big thing that im sure this camera would really blow away the canon as far as im concerned is that it should have decent software and tethering. that is by far the worst aspect of the canon, completely crap software. hats off to leica to team up with a proven, professional software company.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was also thinking about updating my back...
 I don't get as wet or muddy as you do but I am holding out that I can use some of my fast leica lenses on this and live with some fall off.. I heard an adapter is in the works..and I am still in the dark ages with manual focus lenses for all my cameras.. so we have
different issues..I am really pleased with the quality I have gotten from my dmr.. so I can't wait to see what this camera can do.

[JohnBrew]

http://www.s.leica-camera.com/

They are certainly taking this seriously...

Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223426\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As a Leica user for many years I think this is awesome. However, with a hinted at price of 20,000 Euros for the body alone - OMG!!! I'm sure the lens prices will be astronomical also. Hopefully Leica has been paying attention to Mamiya and the ZD and this tempting morsel will be affordable for us mere mortals.

[ndevlin]

Cheering and booing, all at once.  Leica has broken its stodgy mould and become the first camera company to smash out of the antiquated 35/MF paradigm. "Formats" are a thing of the past ( and have been for a while -- just nobody's had the balls to say so).  The future is about systems, and the vision and ergonomics that accompany them.  

Leica has hit the sweet-spot, imho, on the camera-size / file size chart.  This camera could be a world beater, especially coupling Leica optics to a large sensor.

......but.......

Price??? I can own a second-hand 39MP MF system, with lenses, for about what the *body* is rumoured to be costing here?!?!?! F'getabouit.

And the lenses. Um, er, where are the zooms? TS lenses are nice, but who gives fuck. Really. Seriously. It's called a "view" camera.  Goes on a tripod with a (now) dirt cheap MF back covering 4x5 in multiple frames.  Costs so much less you can buy an investment bank with the change from the prices people are throwing around here.

For the other 99.5% of shooters who couldn't give rat's ass about T/S, where are the zooms? HELLO IN THERE.  Zoooooooooooom  lenses!!! They're these cool things where you can, like, totally change the focal length just by turning a ring, eh.  It's like, so totally awesome.  Fixed focal length, on the other hand, is like, so totally 1960.  

Sharp, sure. Whatever. On a camera meant to compete with high-end 35mm Nikon and Canon, there MUST BE core zoom lenses. And fast ones at that.  


And here's the kicker.......what if the rumours about Nikon's "MX" format are true? It'll deliver thrice the ISO performance, and a third the price, I bet.  And it will actually be available for purchase in that nifty, here's-my-money-hand-me-my-camera-I-have -shoot-tomorrow kind of way.  

with zoom lenses.  


So, cheering and booing.

We live in interesting times.

- N.

[Leonardo Barreto]

... and camera controls, there seams to be an FPS-CS-OFF lever and the 4 Phase One buttons in the back, plus one dial in the back and one on top... this is the most bare dialed camera I have seen, makes my D300 look so PRO and sophisticated... @20K EU ??

[klane]

another overpriced 3:2 slr. yawn.

[gwhitf]

another overpriced 3:2 slr. yawn.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If, in fact, it is priced in Euros, then, at today's rates, (not that the body is even finished; it's still balsa wood), then it would convert to:

$ 29,570.01 USD

and that's for the body alone. And extra for the floor mats.

Add three Leica lenses to that figure, and you've got a Second Mortgage. But oops, you're upside down in your house, so that means that a Second Mortgage is not available. Sorry.

So that sends you to Miami to join up with ScarFace, to raise the funds.

[BrianSmith]

If, in fact, it is priced in Euros, then, at today's rates, (not that the body is even finished; it's still balsa wood), then it would convert to:

$ 29,570.01 USD

and that's for the body alone.

So that sends you to Miami to join up with ScarFace, to raise the funds.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223469\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Gwitf,

You'll be making that much in a month once your Gwitf Autograph Softboxes hit the the shelves of Home Depot...

[paul_jones]

as far as i can see, its missing a dedicated af focus button   .

i still havnt figured out how people can use the shutter button to focus on anything thats not dead center.

paul

[James R Russell]

r for 35mm.
James seems to be loving his 1DsMIII.
I wonder James how often are yougrabbing tha Contax these days?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

More with the Canon than the Contax.  A lot more, but some of that is just project specfic, though a lot of it is the Canons go to higher iso.

I don't see any dynamic range difference, but then again that's why God made foam core, and the color of the Canons is very good, the file holds up well.

I do wish it had less of an AA filter or whatever gives it a little less bite, but it's not so obvious that it can't be overcome with some sharpening.

I actually don't mind the Canons tethering software.  it's a little disjointed but the previews are very nice and full screen and now running windows it tethers fast.

The thing about the Canon is it's inexpensive, which is kind of crazy to think of a $7,000 still camera as inexpensive, but looking at the last 4 or 5 new annoucements it is laughable inexpensive and you can buy it today . . . anywhere.

JR

[pss]

The thing about the Canon is it's inexpensive, which is kind of crazy to think of a $7,000 still camera as inexpensive, but looking at the last 4 or 5 new annoucements it is laughable inexpensive and you can buy it today . . . anywhere.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that's the problem....the 5dmkII will do even better high iso and HD video for 2500.....that is just hard to beat....

[James R Russell]

the big thing that im sure this camera would really blow away the canon as far as im concerned is that it should have decent software and tethering. that is by far the worst aspect of the canon, completely crap software. hats off to leica to team up with a proven, professional software company.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Paul,

Do you really think it's going to blow away a P30+ and they are lowering the price of that back, probably to 12 grand or something.  Put that on a H-1 and you saved at least $30,000 U.S. with lenses.

Now nobody knows what the Leica will be like, but do you really think that since it has a ccd it's going  to have a clean iso above 400?

I like the looks of the Leica, but for the price and working every day, I don't know, I think I'd rather have a couple of 5d 2's and a p30 or A65, or even that blad with the p30 sensor.

In reality, none of the cameras announced will do everything, I guess  that's asking too much.

The Leica if it was ready today still will probalby have low iso, the Phase p65 goes to 1600 but at 15mpx . . . whatever . . . the Leaf and the new sinar look interesting, but they also will probably not go to 800 iso real clean since they are ccd's and of all the new annoucements other than the 5d they all range from semi expensive to off the scale expensive.

So for me, I guess what I own will do everything I need other than shoot motion.

Now, if I could buy a 5dII right now I'd buy 2.



JR

[Nick-T]

Take a Hasselblad and you have about the same price.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Really? I think you should ring your Hasselblad dealer and ask about the latest prices..

Nick-T

[James R Russell]

Really? I think you should ring your Hasselblad dealer and ask about the latest prices..

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223490\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nick,

Presenting these new cameras, or actually updates of previous cameras, (except the Leica) is like a political campaign.  I think each makers would be better off selling what is good about their own system, but it's impossible not to compare on to the other, even the dslrs.

Phase, historically they make a stable product and they do have the only full frame sensor, though at $45,000 it seems very, very expensive.  As far as cameras, until the lenses are out and the new right angle grip the Mamiya 3 seems limited but it also seems to be getting better.  The lcd . . . we've all talked the Phase lcd to death and unless they announce something soon, I guess that's just the way it's gong to stay.

With Leaf and Sinar both I like the idea of the Hy6 or Rollei, but the downside is the lens prices, though even Mamiya seems to have high prices on their new lenses so maybe that's just the norm.

Sinar did seem to listen about in camera processing and a better lcd and if they actually can produce a marketing effort and  get product on the shelves and in rental it will be much more attractive.

Leaf finally got around to having their back display an image when tethering but it's a shame that it can't be retroactive to their other aptus backs.  I think that's a big mistake.

Hasselblad.  They have the most seasoned platform and a full range of lenses ready to buy, no waiting.  The file format thing makes no sense to me and software that takes a computer upgrade or a new video card also seems like a slight hurdle, but at least the blad is ready to buy and the prices seem pretty good.  It's a shame it's not black and it looks like an American Motors Pacer.

I do find it interesting that of all the new medium format annoucements, Sinar, Leaf, Phase, Hasselblad and Leica the prices for most are high, for some much higher, the iso stays the same, which means the real world use stays the same,   but when you look at the dslr annoucements from Canon and Sony, they have actually gone much lower in price, higher in iso and both offer 20 something megapixels for $3,000.

JR

[Terence h]

Leica S2 digital SLR 30x45mm sensor 37.5 mega pixel in a 35mm style body announced this morning now we are talking.

Terence

[rethmeier]

I have a question?

What if this rumored Nikon MX is similar to the Leica S2?

It wouldn't be that hard for Canon to do a similar camera as well.

Still Leica has that kudos that is legendary.

Cheers,
Willem.

[James R Russell]

I have a question?

What if this rumored Nikon MX is similar to the Leica S2?

It wouldn't be that hard for Canon to do a similar camera as well.

Still Leica has that kudos that is legendary.

Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price)  doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?

I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.

What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?

JR

[EricWHiss]

Dale Farkas' blog seems to have the most information on the S2 and R10 that I have seen so far. The way the lenses are described they sound incredible (and likely very expensive).


http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

[rethmeier]

That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS

APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS

These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.

Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH

APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5

Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH

Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift

Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.


I would love to see the price list!

Cheers,
Willem.

[pss]

I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price)  doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?

I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.

What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

actually the 5DmkII is more like 1/3 of the price with the next gen. sensor....
the dsmkIII is a kind of a hard sale right now and will have to come down in price by the end of the year (when the 5dII ships).....
who says the 1dsIV isn't in the works and goes in the same direction? the 5D/1dsII placement made more sense...they were able to co-exist...the 5dII comes right up to the dsIII and gives a little extra, so canon HAS to come out with something.....and they knew all this, so it will be interesting to see what it will be.....and somehow i don't see a 1dsIV with a 30mpix 24x36 sensor....a larger sensor makes much more sense...

the leica looks amazing, the phase cooperation makes it "real", the lenses will be amazing....

but afaik i will have to wait ONE YEAR for it, even if i want it.....that is a LOOOONG time for canon and nikon, neither of which have announced a new flagship yet.....

[James R Russell]

actually the 5DmkII is more like 1/3 of the price with the next gen. sensor....
the dsmkIII is a kind of a hard sale right now and will have to come down in price by the end of the year (when the 5dII ships).....
who says the 1dsIV isn't in the works and goes in the same direction? the 5D/1dsII placement made more sense...they were able to co-exist...the 5dII comes right up to the dsIII and gives a little extra, so canon HAS to come out with something.....and they knew all this, so it will be interesting to see what it will be.....and somehow i don't see a 1dsIV with a 30mpix 24x36 sensor....a larger sensor makes much more sense...

the leica looks amazing, the phase cooperation makes it "real", the lenses will be amazing....

but afaik i will have to wait ONE YEAR for it, even if i want it.....that is a LOOOONG time for canon and nikon, neither of which have announced a new flagship yet.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223509\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My point is it's not like Canon to just totally obsolete their flagship camera overnight, especially one that has been on the market such a short time.

Something made them do it, maybe Sony, maybe Nikon, though I doubt if the Leica or any medium format announcements really got thier attention.

The thing is obviously in the world of cmos and dslrs the sensor is not the defining costs factor, like it is for medium format, because if it was, then the 5d2 would be selling at a loss.

Looking at the $3,000 price of the 5d2, it does make you wonder what type of camera they could produce for $7,000.

Maybe a 36x36 square sensor that goes to multiple formats, from 4:5 to 16:9, including video.

It also makes you wonder if the next flagship camera from Canon will even be produced, given that Sony seems content to offer 24mpx for $3,000.  Maybe the 5d2 is the top of the line Canon for the forseable future.

To me, the real 600 lb. gorilla is Sony. With their experience in high end video, their ability to produce their own sensors and the fact that they really are working from a clean sheet of paper with no real user installed base, they could probably offer just  about anything in any configuration.

It also makes me think how well the Leica would sell if it was a $10,000 camera vs. a $24,000 camera, but I guess given the fact that it will be sold through normal medium format channels, the  prices will not go lower.

I am surprised that the Leica lenses are so slow, nothing in the f2 range, and most 3.5's.

Given that it's a ccd, which means lower iso than cmos, 3.5's are very slow for a lot of work you would expect to do with a camera of those physical dimensions.

Still all of this is conjecture and means very little until all of these cameras get into real world use.

JR