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Author Topic: New Sinar arTec camera  (Read 175325 times)

MHFA

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« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2008, 11:19:36 am »

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  I would say try going without the tilts and a goundglass for six months and then see on how many shots you really miss those "features".


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Its not the same but for about 15 years I worked with a Tilt Shift grondglass 5x7" and with a Plaubel Proshift (Like an ALPA with Shift, but without Tilt and Groundglass). Its a very good camera, but I personnally worked better with the TiltShift Groundglass solution.
So, why should I use a camera system with less possibilities?

The LCD on the back is not enough for composing and tethered shooting is not always possible.

I think it is impossible to make a symmetrical 24mm lens.
But without such a lens or a bigger sensor film still offers more possibilities.

Michael Heinrich
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Mort54

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« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2008, 11:22:57 am »

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No,
that's where the four pins from the Hy6/AFi mount insert into.
You're right. After blowing up the images, I came to the same conclusion. Sigh. If that interface isn't removable, then mounting non Hy-6 MFDBs would indeed be an issue.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 11:25:47 am by Mort54 »
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Mort54

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« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2008, 11:23:59 am »

Ooops. I hit the wrong button.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 11:25:21 am by Mort54 »
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thsinar

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« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2008, 11:39:22 am »

You are not dense, Billy!

The front part with the lens board rotates and makes an initial tilt to rotate as well, making it becoming a combined moved (tilted and swung) plane of sharpness, in respect of the optical axis. The result is the same as tilting and swinging alternatively and separately on a view camera with separate tilt and swing movements/knobs.

Thierry

Quote
I'm not usually dense.
Maybe an exploded view of the separate components of the arTec would help.

I don't see where the entire front would detach allowing for the tilt knob to be at the bottom allowing for swing.

And, how does the lens rise to exclude the foreground.  I don't see the vertical scales.
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« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 04:10:55 pm by thsinar »
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BJNY

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« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2008, 11:42:22 am »

I need to see it on YouTube, please
Seriously  
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Guillermo

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« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2008, 11:43:43 am »

While there is a lot more to see and learn about this camera, I'm terribly excited as well.

The 4x5 sits on the shelf - film handling is a bit tough these days for the non-pro without assistant; the use of 6x12 film means compose, back on, back off routine. Hard to do quickly in the middle of the city.

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

So lets get the data sheet, price, get things moving here. When will it be ready? We're all waiting!

Geoff
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Geoff

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« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2008, 11:48:48 am »

TH

is there an interface plate beween the HY6 fitting and the old P1/2/3 cameras yet

If so you have finally tied your system together

(apart of the baffiling selection of same focal lenght different mount lenses  )

S
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 11:49:25 am by Morgan_Moore »
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thsinar

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« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2008, 11:49:32 am »

hi Adam,

the back is pretty much in the center when in exposure position. The weight of the groundglass and viewer are neglectful and won't affect. The construction is very sturdy and offers maximum stability.

Quote
please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that when the back is behind the lens, ready for exposure, all the weight from the groundglass, viewer and back is on one side of the camera, at the time where you need the most stabile and even weight distribution.

KR Adam
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adammork

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« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2008, 11:52:36 am »

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hi Adam,

the back is pretty much in the center when in exposure position. The weight of the groundglass and viewer are neglectful and won't affect. The construction is very sturdy and offers maximum stability.
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Good to hear, Thanks

/adam
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thsinar

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« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2008, 11:57:56 am »

hi Mort,

I am not sure what you understand under "MFDB interface", but yes, all our adapters can be taken away, including the Hy6 adapter which (revolving or non-revolving adapter) is used for the eMotion backs.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hi Thierry. Thank you for the quick response.

After examining the photos that show the back side of the arTec, I take heart. It looks, to me at least, that the MFDB interface is a screw on plate (the bumps in the four corners look like screw heads to me, at least). If the MFDB interface can be removed, then I have no doubt that a third party can provide plates for other MFDB mounts. Since this is a technical camera, the proprietary electronic interface of the Hy-6 isn't needed - only mechanical adapters are needed.

I would be interested in hearing back from you as to whether my assumption that the MFDB interface is implemented as a removable plate is correct.

Regards,
Mort.
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thsinar

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« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2008, 12:00:33 pm »

yes, right.

Thierry

Quote
No,
that's where the four pins from the Hy6/AFi digital back insert into.

See, the rear of the Hy6 has the same female connector.
 [attachment=7273:attachment]
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adammork

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« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2008, 12:02:23 pm »

Quote from: Geoffreyg,Jul 1 2008, 03:43 PM

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

Yes, you can use the Alpa's very well with groundglass, I have been doing this almost daily the last 18 month and +60.000 exposures....

Shift V +25/-15mm Shift H +20/-20mm is a lot, BUT Shift V +45/-25mm Shift H +25/-25mm is generous  

/adam
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schaubild

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« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2008, 01:05:19 pm »

Quote
....

I think it is impossible to make a symmetrical 24mm lens.
But without such a lens or a bigger sensor film still offers more possibilities.

.....


You didn't follow the market in the last few years, didn't you?

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/d...itar_apo_wm.pdf

Works perfectly on Alpa's, for example.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2008, 01:32:50 pm »

Quote from: adammork,Jul 1 2008, 04:02 PM
Quote from: Geoffreyg,Jul 1 2008, 03:43 PM

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

Yes, you can use the Alpa's very well with groundglass, I have been doing this almost daily the last 18 month and +60.000 exposures....

Shift V +25/-15mm Shift H +20/-20mm is a lot, BUT Shift V +45/-25mm Shift H +25/-25mm is generous  

/adam
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 i totally agree that one can use the alpas, and some alpa photographers  ( as you ) are among the best worldwide. but, and this was always my point : not for all of us but for many the transition to digital is a very expensive decision. easily it costs you together with 4 or 5 lenses and a 33/39 mp back 40 - 60.000$, or even more.
but if you are still working with 4x5" film many have the feeling, and this feeling is not untrue,- that even if you invest this money you still end up with several compromises. and this is not very sexy, after spending so much money.
so, many photographers i know still are waiting. waiting for a solution which still might crack their bank account ( or not ) , but which at least looks attractive and not just as a compromise and a transition they have to make because some erics adams or rainers already are working digital and you think you HAVE to make it now too. unfortunately this even might be true. if you want to compete in the actual ( commercial ) market, its time to change to digital.

and i think there are too big  compromises in the existing systems. good built or bad built. they are not thought till the end, i.m.h.o. all of them.
compromises in terms of wide-angle lenses and shift capacities or compromises of the way you have to compose your images.
if you worked with 4x5" you probably haven't used a linhof press camera with viewfinder, you used a technikardan or whatever with ground-glass and a nice bright image. and for lf photographers which are habituated to see their motif large and bright on their groundglasses its a big step in now where land to compose now with viewfinders or with lcds. of course you can do that. but do you want that if you already are in front of the decision and seeing the price of it and waht you will loose after the change ?

sure it works to shoot with viewfinder, sure you can unmount and mount your back 60.000 times ( and control it every second time or every time again if you got new dust-spots ) . if you see a spot, i know, no problem  : sensors are easy to clean   .

yes you can,  as eric suggests, roughly compose your image with this nice big and optical viewfinders, abstract the exact shifts, abstract the curved distorted lines, abstract the mask if you usea 90mm lens, put the camera more or less parallel with the image and fine adjust your back afterwards  in making 10 exposures and adjusting the back millimeter by millimeter, shading with your hands the lcd. you can do this even in bright sunlight. no problem.
but is it tempting for a photographer who compares this with the way he is ued to compose his images in his 4x5" system if he still hasnt had made the change ?

the real problem is that this compromises appear after you invested 40., 50, 60.000 $ or € .
 the real advantages of the digital capturing itself you will probably have  found out 1 year later, if you learned how much more you can do with your back than simply replacing your film with a sensor and ruining your lab. at this point probably you accept also the compromises in your system, because you learned to live with them and you see, that the results in your images are good and even much better than ever before on your old film system.

in case of the alpa its even a very nice compromise cause they are fantastic built, they have a very well thought and proof-en system behind and they offer a lot of movements since introduction of the xy.
in case of the ( somehow ) cheaper systems as the cambo you save some money ( not that much seing the costs of the whole system with sensor ) but now even the sex of the alpas is gone.

of-course, if you are a good photographer you can make good images with it. if you are a great photographer you`ll make great images with it.  with all of this cameras.

my photographs dont suffer in any way because i use my gottschalt camera, but i always knew what to make better in this camera and its obvious that my camera is not on alpa ( or sinar ) standard in terms of tolerances. so i check many wide angle shots if the are sharp on both sides. mostly they are. and hey... its not a big deal. as for adam its not a big deal to remove and to mount the sensor 60.000 times. or for eric to adjust his frames with exposures on the lcd.

but i wanted something smoother, something more intuitive, something more 4x5" like.
to my own surprise sinar listened to me. thats all. here is the camera.

p.s.
about the 23-mm: i havent known it before and thats really exciting news for me to have soon a true ( AND SHIFTABLE ) wide angle lens.

Eric: i start to take it personal now   . believe me,  if the HR would distort too much i simply wouldn't use it. i am experienced enough and demanding enough to say this, ( as you are too ).
the HRs are not perfect and the new 23 shouldn't be worthier. but somewhere is a point for me where i loose the interest in more perfection, and this is when the things work fine and smooth. so it is working with the HR lineup. my images usually have straight lines. wthout that i would make  here any compromises its very very rare that i post pro some distortion correction. and i use the HR line in 80% of my shots.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 02:04:00 pm by rainer_v »
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« Reply #94 on: July 01, 2008, 02:21:42 pm »

A question :

Are the horizontal AND the vertical shift on the rear of the camera ? It seems that the vertical is not independant of the (tilt) lens board.

PdF
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MHFA

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« Reply #95 on: July 01, 2008, 02:22:41 pm »

Quote
You didn't follow the market in the last few years, didn't you?

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/d...itar_apo_wm.pdf

Works perfectly on Alpa's, for example.
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I think the 24 is nearly symetric, but not at all:

[a href=\"http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/dig/pdf/z_td_apo_xl_56_24.pdf]http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/dig...po_xl_56_24.pdf[/url]

Michael Heinrich
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hubell

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« Reply #96 on: July 01, 2008, 02:43:42 pm »

I would like to commend Sinar and, of course, Rainer, for joining together to develop such an innovative product. It reflects a high degree of collaboration with an exceptionally skilled working photographer who understands exactly what he needs. If it turns out it can only be used with Sinar and Leaf AFI backs, I understand the business imperative behind that decision(much as I would like to buy one to use with a Hasselblad back).  Sinar provided all of the R&D funding for the camera's development. Sinar should be allowed to make the business judgment as to how to best maximize its return from the R&D investment. It is an uphill struggle for Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar to get prospective buyers to take a close look at their products and test them out. By offering a camera or lenses that you can only use if you buy one of their digital backs, they at least put themselves in a position where someone will take a much closer look at their backs and not reflexively opt for a Phase back.
If anyone who owns a Phase back is pissed, I would suggest flooding Phase One with e-mails complaining about its lack of product innovation(unless you think the LCD on the Plus Series backs or the "update" of the AFDII qualifies as product innovation). Phase One has been the 800 pound gorilla in this market. Why did Phase not work with Arca or Alpa and fund the development of such a camera? The answer, by the way, is that Phase has enjoyed a nice long run of others doing the dirty work of camera and lens development and marketing with its low profit margin(on the road to bankruptcy) while Phase sat back and scooped the profits from its near monopoly position of selling high profit margin digital backs. What a great business model. For Phase! Code word for that ruse: "open architecture".
This latest development tells me, at least, that MR's  advice in his Phase camera review that a prospective buyer of medium format digital should first decide on the digital back is incorrect.  I believe you should first decide on what your photographic needs are.  There may be some cameras, lenses or features that you can only use if you purchase a specific back. Given how close in performance the various digital backs are now, why would I pick  Back X if I really wanted to use Camera Y? Of course, the same goes for certain features of digital backs. If you need long exposure capability, a Phase back is apparently the only game in town.

Gigi

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« Reply #97 on: July 01, 2008, 03:13:03 pm »

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the real problem is that this compromises appear after you invested 40., 50, 60.000 $ or € .
 the real advantages of the digital capturing itself you will probably have  found out 1 year later, [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well put. THat Eric and others make these systems work is, as you noted, a testimonial to their really good fabrication and capabilities. That said, the idea of opening up the piggy bank and having then compromises doesn't sit well.

Sinar (and you) seem to have gotten the message on what was needed. If priced reasonably, the 4x5 can go on the block, and this is the next way to go.

Geoff
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thsinar

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« Reply #98 on: July 01, 2008, 03:40:31 pm »

hi Sam,

sorry, I don't get what you are asking exactly: adapter plate for the Hy6 on the P series?

can you precise please?

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
TH

is there an interface plate beween the HY6 fitting and the old P1/2/3 cameras yet

If so you have finally tied your system together

(apart of the baffiling selection of same focal lenght different mount lenses  )

S
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thsinar

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« Reply #99 on: July 01, 2008, 03:56:33 pm »

hi Geoff,

I expect the data sheet with detailed specifications as well as the defintive prices within next  month, for sure before Photokina.
All have worked very hard to get this camera ready for June 30th, which was our deadline to announce it. And we have got 3 prototype samples ready for this event.

2 of those prototypes are now already in the hands of 2 proven photographers (one being Rainer) to get used in real shooting conditions starting this week. The 3rd one is kept by our R&D, obviously.

To those asking or wondering why one does not see any scales or mm prints, or just 1/2 cm prints:
The pics shown by me here are from one of this prototype camera: the angle under which the shots have been taken do not show all the scales and mm prints on it, but they are all there, believe me: H & V shifts, tilt & swing, rotation of the lens board, all in mm or degrees.

I'll try to make some more snapshots within the next days to show it under different angles, but can't promise it for sure.

Our goal is now to get feedback of the use under real conditions within the next couple of weeks to be able to make some last changes, if necessary. Our goal is to have it ready at Photokina and  available for delivery as a finished product shortly after.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
So lets get the data sheet, price, get things moving here. When will it be ready? We're all waiting!

Geoff
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