Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 04:59:04 pm

Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 04:59:04 pm
Sinar announced today a new architecture camera called "arTec".

It was developed together with architecture photographer Rainer Viertlböck who gave his input for the necessary features for his ideal camera.

Some of the features of this new camera:

- Revolving Adapter
- Sliding Back for ground-glass composing
- Lenses 23mm to 135mm (Sinaron Digital)
- 5° Tilt/Swing, in all directions
- Shift  V +25/-15mm
- Shift H +20/-20mm
- 360° turnable tripod mount
- 1.5 Kg

Availability shortly after Photokina 2008.

More to follow.

Best regards,
Rainer & Thierry
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 30, 2008, 05:01:52 pm
Interesting!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on June 30, 2008, 05:06:44 pm
Congratulations.

What is the expected cost?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Rune Werner Molnes on June 30, 2008, 05:10:10 pm
Interesting indeed..

Looking forward to more information on this one. Pricing, more detailed specs and the most interesting question for me: Will I be able to use my AFi DB on it?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on June 30, 2008, 05:13:15 pm
Rainer V,

Please share your field-testing experience with us.

Thank you,
Billy
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: j.miller on June 30, 2008, 05:13:28 pm
This is quite exciting. The arTec looks like it will fit nicely into this growing niche of the marketplace. I look forward to seeing it at Photokina.

I feel like I should congratulate you! Very Impressive!

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote
Sinar announced today a new architecture camera called "arTec".
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 30, 2008, 05:23:14 pm
I have been secretly wondering why people would go to the extra hassle and expense of a camera like the Cambo, yet miss out on tilt movements. This seems to address that omission.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on June 30, 2008, 05:28:30 pm
Tilt movements also opens up the possibility of losing exact plane-parallelism.
Looking forward to hearing how Sinar has implemented the tilt mechanism.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on June 30, 2008, 05:31:08 pm
Further exciting would be if a Rollei-mount lens could be used
for those invested in the Hy6 platform.

Imagine if a Rollei 90mm Makro Apo Symmar could be mounted,
and used with multi-shot digital back for still life work.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on June 30, 2008, 05:32:05 pm
Quote
Rainer V,

Please share your field-testing experience with us.

Thank you,
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i was invited today to SINAR in swiss to accompany the announcement to distributors. the first prototype together with some lenses was  finished last thursday and i received no.1 for testing it now on real work .....


to my surprise there was not a single compromise made regarding the specifications i gave to SINAR. in contrary the camera can do more than i was asking for.... looks great. Eventually a camera which can do all i am asking for in digital architecture shooting.

 
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 30, 2008, 05:39:46 pm
Nice work everyone. Rainer, hope we can finally meet at Photokina!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: michael on June 30, 2008, 05:41:31 pm
Rainer,

Of course you have an open invitation to write a hands on review of the camera for this site!

Michael
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on June 30, 2008, 05:53:24 pm
Quote
Rainer,

Of course you have an open invitation to write a hands on review of the camera for this site!

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi michael,
i would be pleased to do this.... liking your forum here very much.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on June 30, 2008, 05:54:21 pm
Quote
Nice work everyone. Rainer, hope we can finally meet at Photokina!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204597\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

probably will shoot at the aral sea at that time ......
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Roskav on June 30, 2008, 05:55:21 pm
Ooh looks great... I'm assuming that the lens board is stationary for all shift movements? .. great news for stitching if so.....

Ros
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on June 30, 2008, 06:23:35 pm
Quote
- 360° turnable tripod mount

Is it geared rotation, Thierry?

Also, is its rotation point lined up with the center axis of the lens?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 06:27:22 pm
Dear Rune,

The AFi digital back can be mounted on the arTec, since it uses the same mount as the Hy6.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Interesting indeed..

Looking forward to more information on this one. Pricing, more detailed specs and the most interesting question for me: Will I be able to use my AFi DB on it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on June 30, 2008, 06:31:26 pm
Quote
The AFi digital back can be mounted on the arTec, since it use the same mount as the Hy6.

Will digital backs in fixed Hasselblad V and H mounts fit?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on June 30, 2008, 06:38:12 pm
Rainer,
I'm very impressed!

This is certainly the Alpa,Horseman etc killer!

Does the 23 mm  lens mean 24 or 28?
Just curious wether Sinar is now also using Schneiders beside the Rodenstocks.

And I can use e-75 Hy6 back as well?

Regards,

Willem.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 06:39:04 pm
Not yet planed, Billy.

Thierry

Quote
Will digital backs in fixed Hasselblad V and H mounts fit?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 06:41:27 pm
hi Willem,

- the 23mm is not a typo: there is a 23mm lens in preparation.

- Yes, you can of course use your eMotion 75.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Does the 23 mm  lens mean 24 or 28?
Just curious wether Sinar is now also using Schneiders beside the Rodenstocks.

And I can use e-75 Hy6 back as well?

Regards,

Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on June 30, 2008, 06:42:09 pm
Quick question for Thierry and Rainer,
as I already have a revolving adapter with my e-75LV,
how does that work with the revolving adapter for the arTec?

Regards,
Willem.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 30, 2008, 06:43:19 pm
Quote
Sinar announced today a new architecture camera called "arTec".

It was developed together with architecture photographer Rainer Viertlböck who gave his input for the necessary features for his ideal camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This looks great but will it be possible to use a Phaseone back on this camera?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Murray Fredericks on June 30, 2008, 06:44:25 pm
Very Good...now something to spend even more $$ on


Murray
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 06:44:51 pm
There is a 0-click and locking system to avoid this.

Thierry

Quote
Tilt movements also opens up the possibility of losing exact plane-parallelism.
Looking forward to hearing how Sinar has implemented the tilt mechanism.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204592\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 06:46:31 pm
Willem,

no problem, you can use it directly on the arTec, it is the same mount.

Thierry

Quote
Quick question for Thierry and Rainer,
as I already have a revolving adapter with my e-75LV,
how does that work with the revolving adapter for the arTec?

Regards,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on June 30, 2008, 06:47:38 pm
I think there will be some Alpa's for sale in the near future!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on June 30, 2008, 06:47:38 pm
Thierry,

I'm trying to figure out if a simultaneous tilt and swing is possible.

What is that lever at the top of the camera for?

Thanks,
Billy
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 06:47:59 pm
Dear Bernard,

Not any plans yet to mount PO backs.

Thierry

Quote
This looks great but will it be possible to use a Phaseone back on this camera?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Murray Fredericks on June 30, 2008, 06:48:25 pm
Thierry,

for those with Alpa mounted lenses already, will there be an adapter plate for those lenses? If not will they be 'easily' re-mounted for this camera and would that be cost effective?

Murray
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on June 30, 2008, 06:48:41 pm
Quote
Willem,

no problem, you can use it directly on the arTec, it is the same mount.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow,

I like that even better!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 30, 2008, 06:51:46 pm
Quote
no problem, you can use it directly on the arTec, it is the same mount.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just to clarify, is the rotating adapter the means by which rotation is possible? In other words, the camera itself doesn't support rotation, just the adapter? This would seem like an elegant solution.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on June 30, 2008, 06:52:59 pm
Quote
Thierry,

I'm trying to figure out if a simultaneous tilt and swing is possible.

What is that lever at the top of the camera for?

Thanks,
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204628\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

although i am still not thierry... but:

you can tilt the lens in two directions ( +/- ) and turn around the tilt mechanism 360 degrees.
so all tilt and swing possibilities are at the same time possible ,- till +/- 5 deg.


the lever at the top is to unlock the sliding back. it also has the function, that horizontal movements which have been applied during the image composing on the ground glass, are automatically taken over at exactly the same position if you slide the sensor in front of the lens. great feature i.m.o.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on June 30, 2008, 06:57:09 pm
Quote
although i am still not thierry... but:

Rainer, I'm sure your jumping in to answer questions is welcomed by everyone.

Quote
you can tilt the lens in two directions ( +/- ) and turn around the tilt mechanism 360 degrees.
so all tilt and swing possibilities are at the same time possible ,- till +/- 5 deg.
the lever at the top is to unlock the sliding back. it also has the function, that horizontal movements which have been applied during the image composing on the ground glass, are automatically taken over at exactly the same position if you slide the sensor in front of the lens. great feature i.m.o.

Sorry, I don't quite follow
since I don't see a second rotation point for swinging while tilting.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 07:00:26 pm
A side view:
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 07:04:02 pm
Graham,

there are actually 3 rotations we are speaking about here:

- revolving of the back with the revolving adapter

- rotation (360°) of the whole camera at the base/tripod mount

- rotation (360°) of the lens board where the tilt/swing is located

Best regards

Quote
Just to clarify, is the rotating adapter the means by which rotation is possible? In other words, the camera itself doesn't support rotation, just the adapter? This would seem like an elegant solution.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204634\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on June 30, 2008, 07:06:16 pm
Quote
Rainer, I'm sure your jumping in to answer questions is welcomed by everyone.
Sorry, I don't quite follow
since I don't see a second rotation point for swinging while tilting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
if you rotate the lens board e.g. for 45 degr. the result is a Scheimpflug
in horizontal and at the same time in vertical direction, so this equals a combined tilt and swing.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 30, 2008, 07:10:18 pm
Quote
- revolving of the back with the revolving adapter

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant rotation of the back. The other two seem straight forward.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 07:11:38 pm
no problem, Graham.

Thierry

Quote
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant rotation of the back. The other two seem straight forward.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Murray Fredericks on June 30, 2008, 07:13:00 pm
Hi Thierry,

any answer on the Alpa lens query?

Murray
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Morgan_Moore on June 30, 2008, 07:13:09 pm
Lovely looking

all you need now is an attractive way for me to trade my H and 4 lenses over to the Hy6..

S
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Mort54 on June 30, 2008, 07:21:44 pm
Quote
I think there will be some Alpa's for sale in the near future!
I don't think there will be many Alpa's for sale if Sinar doesn't support any back mounts other than the Hy-6 mount. No Mamiya back adapter? No Hassy V back adapter? No Hassy H back adapter? How hard can it be to provide purely mechanical interface plates for the other back mounts?? It's not like the proprietary Hy-6 electrical interface will be used on this body.

The Alpa's, Cambo's and Horseman's all provide back adapters for all the different camera bodies, including the Hy-6. That's Sinar's competition on this camera. I would find it extremely unusual and disappointing if Sinar decided to support only the Hy-6 back interface. Thierry, please tell me I misunderstood!!!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 07:25:22 pm
hi Murray,

I have no answer for this possibility at this stage concerning an adapter plate.
However, a re-mount of those lens should be possible, mechanically.
I have no further information yet.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

for those with Alpa mounted lenses already, will there be an adapter plate for those lenses? If not will they be 'easily' re-mounted for this camera and would that be cost effective?

Murray
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 07:34:23 pm
Mort,

at this stage only Sinar eMotion and Leaf AFi backs are supported. I can't speculate further.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I would find it extremely unusual and disappointing if Sinar decided to support only the Hy-6 back interface. Thierry, please tell me I misunderstood!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204647\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Murray Fredericks on June 30, 2008, 07:36:14 pm
Quote
hi Murray,

I have no answer for this possibility at this stage concerning an adapter plate.
However, a re-mount of those lens should be possible, mechanically.
I have no further information yet.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Thierry,

please pass this as feedback to Sinar that I (and I'm sure many of the other architectural photographers) would find it very attractive to move to this camera if there was a way of bringing over the lenses already owned (in my case in Alpa mounts). Without that it is really cost prohibitive...

Murray
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on June 30, 2008, 07:41:25 pm
of course, Murray, you should know me.

Thanks,
Thierry

Quote
Hi Thierry,

please pass this as feedback to Sinar that I (and I'm sure many of the other architectural photographers) would find it very attractive to move to this camera if there was a way of bringing over the lenses already owned (in my case in Alpa mounts). Without that it is really cost prohibitive...

Murray
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: oscar falero on June 30, 2008, 07:53:02 pm
What's the expected cost for this new beauty?

Will it work with the 54H/eyelike M22 and will it require any cables?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on June 30, 2008, 07:54:49 pm
Quote
hi Willem,

- the 23mm is not a typo: there is a 23mm lens in preparation.

- Yes, you can of course use your eMotion 75.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



what i heard today is that the 23mm Sinaron will be a rodenstock lens with an image circle off app. 70mm. what would mean one can shift it 10 -12mm, which would be fantastic for us. finally a lens which equals the good old 47xl on a 4x5" camera. no idea about the price and exact specs.... but so far this is more as a rumor as the info comes from sources closed to the font.  
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: bradleygibson on June 30, 2008, 09:25:00 pm
Very nice!!

Two years ago, I had a long conversation with Thomas at Alpa, and basically begged for a camera with these specifications.  He told me the XY was the answer, and hinted at the possibility of the MAX.  But really, this is almost exactly what I was asking for!

Looks very nice, Rainier--congratulations on this to you, and to Sinar, of course!

Now let's hope we're not disappointed with a crazy price tag!

Now that I'm on Hy6, I obviously don't mind the fact that my back works natively with this camera...  But in terms of longevity for the system, it would be nice to see solutions which allowed other backs to play too... I know you're probably already working on them Thierry!

Thanks for the great head's up.  And I look forward to your article, Rainier.  Let me know if you need anyone to help with the fact-checking--just send the camera on over and I'll confirm everything you write!  

Will my Rollei Hy6 lenses mount to this?

-Brad
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 30, 2008, 09:39:26 pm
Quote
at this stage only Sinar eMotion and Leaf AFi backs are supported. I can't speculate further.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204649\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

Thank you for the status. Although I can understand the situation as far as the Hy6 is concerned, my personnal feeling is that Sinar would be shooting itself in the foot were it to support only Sinar + LEaf backs for this tempting camera.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on June 30, 2008, 10:03:45 pm
I'm a bit worried of the distortion of the new 23 Rodenstock.
I hope it's better than the 28 Rodenstock.
I think Sinar should also offer the 24XL and 35XL from Schneider,however I don't think it would work with the sliding back.
However I could be wrong here.

Regards,
Willem.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on June 30, 2008, 10:49:39 pm
Quote
Thierry,

Thank you for the status. Although I can understand the situation as far as the Hy6 is concerned, my personnal feeling is that Sinar would be shooting itself in the foot were it to support only Sinar + LEaf backs for this tempting camera.

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

it might be not easy to understand me, but my approach was always and only to get a system which worked for me good enough ( formerly with the brumbaer tools and my input to its workflow and specs as well ).
to make this clear:
i never have had any interest to invent something for anyone but me. i wanted a good and fast software, i wanted color shift free files, i wanted a camera which does not press me to look through fisheye like viewfinders or to mount and unmount 100 times a day my back just to take a look through the ground glass.
i could not afford that someone made the things for me exclusive, so i looked for partners, as i found them in stefan or in sinar. great partners because they have been very competent in their field and they have been very open to speak with me. this is a fantastic because so started an exchange which has led to real results. much more than i ever expected.....

i am not a "tinkerer", even i have less interest in gear than most here in LL ( which does not make it easy for me to write a review for michael.... ).
i never visited a photokina show till now, nor will i do this year. why? because i have to shoot at this time as i had to do it last time. i am a full-time photographer, not an engineer, not a camera or software manufactory and not a distributor of anything except my photographs.

but i have a vison how the things should work for me, and i try to go there where i want to go. i have to repeat it: i am not spending much time in gear -thinking in it or testing it,- but i know how my tools  should work and i move myself if i dont find it in the market as i want it to be.
i spoke with many people, many are ignorant but others listened and discussed with me. some of these have been real great minds and capacities  in their field and so things could happen as brumbaer tools or now the arTec.

know what i mean? if someone has a phase back with a "V" mount and wants to use the arTec, although it looks as there will not be an adapter from sinar ( although i dont know if this will be the last word  ).
if you want this camera you have two choices: . either you are one of this LL (      ) photographers who earn 7 ,8 or 9 numbers hi income each year: than trash your phase back and buy a sinar or buy two  ( you`ll save taxes ) , or you are still under this income level ( sorry this discussion about the incomes was too funny .... ) than use your phase or whatever back, take the phone, phone someone from whom you think he can help you, maybe mr. zoerkendorfer or whom ever,- tell him your vision, your problem and the chances you see for him if he helps.

i am honestly somehow tired of blaming all day long the manufactories for what they should do and what they should not do.  its boring and my personal experience of working with companies isnt bad at all, at least my experience with sinar was and is simply great.  but working with a company means giving and getting, not only asking and criticizing.
so if you already know whats wrong, if you know what does not exist,- make it appear. its not such big thing with a mechanical mount ( maybe i am wrong herein .... someone who knows more about the technical specs will tell it soon, as i suppose ).
but,  as i said above.... i myself am very happy now to have finally the camera i always wanted. so at least for me thats great... good result for moving my ass and for asking help because i did not liked the existing solutions.

of course i like the side-effect a lot that many people can use this results now too and its really a big honor for me to see colleagues and great photographers will use this camera. i  hope they will like it .

but about the missing features my personal advice: speak with sinar,  speak with phase. speak with leaf or with zoerkendorfer or ask your friend around the corner to build you an adapter. and than there will soon be a solution which helps everybody in this game.  maybe i am too euphoric at this moment .... pls.  forgive me this.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: marc gerritsen on June 30, 2008, 10:57:57 pm
I am very interested in this camera, but it looks like with all the different question here,
there is a lot to be answered.
Is there not a spec sheet  available where all basic questions are answered and explained?
Marc
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on June 30, 2008, 10:58:47 pm
Rainer,
if you were a woman,I would marry you!
Regards,
Willem.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Kumar on June 30, 2008, 11:08:34 pm
Rainer,

Great post! Better to light a candle than curse the darkness! I'm glad you and Sinar got together to produce a very innovative solution for us architectural photographers.

Thierry,

Is this camera limited to DBs only, or will there be an adapter for 4x5 film? I assume the Sinar Hy6 film backs will be supported? And can we have a technical spec sheet and more pictures soon?

Cheers,
Kumar
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: MarkKay on June 30, 2008, 11:56:54 pm
I suspect 3rd party companies like KaptureGroup will make a back adapter as soon as they can get their hands on one of these cameras  
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 01, 2008, 12:04:41 am
Quote
i am honestly somehow tired of blaming all day long the manufactories for what they should do and what they should not do.  its boring and my personal experience of working with companies isnt bad at all, at least my experience with sinar was and is simply great.  but working with a company means giving and getting, not only asking and criticizing.
so if you already know whats wrong, if you know what does not exist,- make it appear. its not such big thing with a mechanical mount ( maybe i am wrong herein .... someone who knows more about the technical specs will tell it soon, as i suppose ).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's indeed one way of looking at it.

If you need a piece of equipment bad enough and can afford to spend the time needed to make it happen, sure, why not doing it. I can only praise your dedication. I had started to discuss with Ebony on a similar project so I fully understand the excitement related to such a process.

Now, when an existing piece of gear basically exists, and could be made available to many more potential users by a simple extension, I am just saying that the manufacturer might as well go that small step further.

I would benefit from it like many other photographers, and my contention is that they would also benefit from it in terms of image and market share.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: pixjohn on July 01, 2008, 12:37:34 am
Don't take this the wrong way, but do you think someone associated with the camera can write a bias review? It defiantly looks like a very nice camera, but the reality when you already own a Cambo Wide DS system seems like a costly jump. My ownly hope is for cambo to see what can be done.

The most interest news is the schneider 23mm lens with a 70 mm image circle. I hope this is made available to Cambo for the Wide DS.

Quote
Rainer,

Of course you have an open invitation to write a hands on review of the camera for this site!

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Kumar on July 01, 2008, 12:45:33 am
The 23mm is a Rodenstock, as Rainer informs. And Cambo has always provided a mounting service, if it is physically possible. About $1000 per lens if I remember correctly.

Cheers,
Kumar
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 01, 2008, 12:59:19 am
Quote
I suspect 3rd party companies like KaptureGroup will make a back adapter as soon as they can get their hands on one of these cameras 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That would be great news!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Natasa Stojsic on July 01, 2008, 01:42:25 am
Quote
I suspect 3rd party companies like KaptureGroup will make a back adapter as soon as they can get their hands on one of these cameras 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Why 3rd party? Considering Sinar and their track record they will probably do it, only don't ask me about the price!!!

They usually have every little thing that yuo can think of on the accessories list so why not?

On the other hand, they are not known as Business Wizards... so maybe it will only be available for Sinar DBs, but that's a shame:(
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 01:51:02 am
Dear John,

Of course someone involved in the development and construction of a camera has his preference, but is it necessarily and always biased by means of "unfairness" to or "dislikes" of others?

I let you judge on this.

What I can say is that it was and still is a pleasure to work with such a professional like Rainer, somebody going straight to the point and raising issues which a manufacturer is not even able to think about, letting apart finding a solution. I can speak about since involved and informed somehow on a regular basis, and I know that the whole and sole idea during all this process was to build and come out with a camera for photographers.  In this respect, the result is a product with as little compromises as possible. What surprises me is how easy and smooth and how fast all went during  this work and cooperation.

Now please forgive me for not being able to participate much and continue answering questions here for the next few days. We have a second day going on here in Switzerland, and starting next Thursday the same will be presented in Asia to our far-east distributors.

Best regards,
Thierry

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Don't take this the wrong way, but do you think someone associated with the camera can write a bias review? It defiantly looks like a very nice camera, but the reality when you already own a Cambo Wide DS system seems like a costly jump. My ownly hope is for cambo to see what can be done.

The most interest news is the schneider 23mm lens with a 70 mm image circle. I hope this is made available to Cambo for the Wide DS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: MarkKay on July 01, 2008, 02:02:03 am
I only said this because Thierry stated no plans for Sinar to make adapters for other DBs....

Quote
Why 3rd party? Considering Sinar and their track record they will probably do it, only don't ask me about the price!!!

They usually have every little thing that yuo can think of on the accessories list so why not?

On the other hand, they are not known as Business Wizards... so maybe it will only be available for Sinar DBs, but that's a shame:(
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204705\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: free1000 on July 01, 2008, 02:28:12 am
Rainer... well done to specify something like this,  and top marks to Sinar for listening to the photographers.

This looks like a ground breaking camera for the architectural shooter, and another plus for the Hy6/AFi platform.

I'd be interested to know its dimensions and weight, but it looks like it might be compact.
 
One question. Are the shift and tilt axes independently rotatable?  I expect that they are not, but it would be a nice bonus.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on July 01, 2008, 02:43:24 am
Quote
Don't take this the wrong way, but do you think someone associated with the camera can write a bias review? It defiantly looks like a very nice camera, but the reality when you already own a Cambo Wide DS system seems like a costly jump. My ownly hope is for cambo to see what can be done.

The most interest news is the schneider 23mm lens with a 70 mm image circle. I hope this is made available to Cambo for the Wide DS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

no i dont take it the wrong way because you certainly are right.
i hardly can and want to write a "review" because i am too involved in ithe birth of the camera
( and because i dont like to write "reviews" ).

what i can do is to write about how i use the camera in practice and to describe how it works for me.  the technical details and the critics in terms of a real plus/minus review have to be made by s.o. else and therefor it has also to be waited for the final product.

the prototype is nice now, but not finished in all details.
some of the knobs will be changed, one arretating knob isnt working still, another one ( a very important one for tilts )  is not at its final level.
so its a prototype and its out now to bring final feedback to sinar what should be made different in the first serial, the camera is not at its final level.
although it works its not perfect yet so nobody can "review" it now at the moment.
but the missing things are details and so i am pretty confident that sinar can fix them fast.
there is a lot of knowledge by sinar for manufacturing mechanical cameras, i dont think any if the things which still dont work at final stage will be a problem in the first batch.

aanyway i dont know how products usually are reviewed in pre serial stages.
i will contact michael about this the next days ... he will know all about it.  

i arrived here in switzerland sunday night, coming from hot spain, stopping here in zurich. now i go back to munich , i have several work too shot next weeks. perfect to test the camera.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on July 01, 2008, 06:18:59 am
Quote
A side view:
[attachment=7267:attachment]


Thierry,

How about a rear view, please, and...

Quote
Is the 360º turnable tripod mount geared rotation, Thierry?

Also, is its rotation point lined up with the center axis of the lens?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 06:50:34 am
Some other views and snapshots:

Thierry

[attachment=7268:attachment][attachment=7269:attachment][attachment=7270:attachm
ent][attachment=7271:attachment]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on July 01, 2008, 06:53:01 am
Quote
Some other views and snapshots:

Thierry

Much appreciated,Thierry.
Billy
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Kumar on July 01, 2008, 07:27:31 am
Thierry,

Very sleek! I don't see any vertical scales? I think mm scales, not just half-centimetre. What is the knob in front for?

Cheers,
Kumar
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on July 01, 2008, 07:40:55 am
I'm not an engineer,
but am I wrong to think the center of the ground glass
and the rotation point of the tripod mount
should be lined up?

[attachment=7272:attachment]

I can imagine the reason why they're not is
for the tripod mount to have a better distribution of bulk.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on July 01, 2008, 08:34:12 am
It's still unclear to me if/how the camera allows simultaneous tilt and swing,
and simultaneous shift V and shift H.

Is it obvious to everyone else?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on July 01, 2008, 09:45:24 am
Quote
It's still unclear to me if the camera allows simultaneous tilt and swing,
and simultaneous shift V and shift H.

Is it obvious to everyone else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204748\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hm. i dont know to explain it better than i did. maybe someone who understood can explain it better or is it unclear to more people here?

....................



about the nodal point which is not under the lens:
its at first a question of the weigth balance, if you dont want to need a very heavy tripoid the tripoid mount  this weigth center should be the central point wher you go to the tripoid.

the 360degree plate in the tripod came in the camera, because we discussed to include this as a little detail, after i brought my tripod to sinar and explained whi i use this strange manfrotto leveller.
i shoot  usually with this leveler to get  a horizontal platform under the three way head, or under which head i ever use. in this way i can turn round the camera meanwhile i compose and adjust the image without that the horizontal position gets lost.
 to integrate this rotary possibility in the camera mount itself means that, one time you have the camera horizintal adjusted e.g. with a three way head, you can turn it around its axe and you dont have to adjust the horizont again. this should be a very practical detail.

of course one can use this feature also for "real" stitched roundshots, but it was not my intention when i asked for this feature
i.m.o. a sliding back camera can never be a perfect roundshot camera platform and it will not be used often for this purpose, but you are right,- smetimes it will be used therefor.
 anyway, the uncentered nodal point  shouldnt create any problem at infinity or even at closer distances. and PS3 became so fantastic in stitching this kind of shots, i would be surprised if there will appear problems.  
but the alterantive, an uncentered stativ mount leads to large weigth unbalances if you compose the image, so this seems to be for me unacceptable  for this reason.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: juicy on July 01, 2008, 09:46:53 am
Quote
It's still unclear to me if/how the camera allows simultaneous tilt and swing,
and simultaneous shift V and shift H.

Is it obvious to everyone else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204748\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If I understood correctly the tilt and swing are not possible at the same time as separate functions. However, you can achieve the same effect by rotating the tilted lens and thus having the combined effect of tilt and swing.

Cheers,
J
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: MHFA on July 01, 2008, 10:00:39 am
Finally it seems that comes a digital camera for architectural work. The backs a as good as film, but all the cameras until now are only nearlly as good as the film based architectural cameras.
I was at ALPA and Linhof factory and tried their cameras, but there was no really good solution in Sight.
The ALPA is a great camera, but ther is no tilt and always changing groundglass and sensor is not comfortabel.
I hope I can try the new SINAR.

Michael Heinrich
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 10:16:19 am
Exactly.

Thierry

Quote
If I understood correctly the tilt and swing are not possible at the same time as separate functions. However, you can achieve the same effect by rotating the tilted lens and thus having the combined effect of tilt and swing.

Cheers,
J
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Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on July 01, 2008, 10:24:58 am
Quote
If I understood correctly the tilt and swing are not possible at the same time as separate functions. However, you can achieve the same effect by rotating the tilted lens and thus having the combined effect of tilt and swing.

Cheers,
J

I'm not usually dense.
Maybe an exploded view of the separate components of the arTec would help.

I don't see where the entire front would detach allowing for the tilt knob to be at the bottom allowing for swing.

And, how does the lens rise to exclude the foreground.  I don't see the vertical scales.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: adammork on July 01, 2008, 10:35:39 am
Quote from: rainer_v,Jul 1 2008, 01:45 PM

about the nodal point which is not under the lens:
its at first a question of the weigth balance, if you dont want to need a very heavy tripoid the tripoid mount  this weigth center should be the central point wher you go to the tripoid.

Dear Rainer,

First a big congratulation with your new camera!! looks that your dream came true  

please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that when the back is behind the lens, ready for exposure, all the weight from the groundglass, viewer and back is on one side of the camera, at the time where you need the most stabile and even weight distribution.

Hope you are doing well  

KR Adam
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Mort54 on July 01, 2008, 10:52:21 am
Quote
Mort,

at this stage only Sinar eMotion and Leaf AFi backs are supported. I can't speculate further.
Hi Thierry. Thank you for the quick response.

After examining the photos that show the back side of the arTec, I take heart. It looks, to me at least, that the MFDB interface is a screw on plate (the bumps in the four corners look like screw heads to me, at least). If the MFDB interface can be removed, then I have no doubt that a third party can provide plates for other MFDB mounts. Since this is a technical camera, the proprietary electronic interface of the Hy-6 isn't needed - only mechanical adapters are needed.

I would be interested in hearing back from you as to whether my assumption that the MFDB interface is implemented as a removable plate is correct.

Regards,
Mort.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: ericstaud on July 01, 2008, 10:53:23 am
Quote
Finally it seems that comes a digital camera for architectural work. The backs a as good as film, but all the cameras until now are only nearlly as good as the film based architectural cameras.
I was at ALPA and Linhof factory and tried their cameras, but there was no really good solution in Sight.
The ALPA is a great camera, but ther is no tilt and always changing groundglass and sensor is not comfortabel.
I hope I can try the new SINAR.

Michael Heinrich
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is interesting that so many find a ground glass a necessity for photographing architecture.  I find that between the view on the Phase LCD and the screen on my laptop that I don't miss using a groundglass at all.  I feel the same about the tilts and swings.  If I am shooting food or still life I would need it, but then I would use a different camera entirely.

I can certainly see that a demo of one of these technical cameras can make it seem cumbersome if you have preconceptions about how it should work (swapping a ground glass and digital back for every shot).  I would say try going without the tilts and a goundglass for six months and then see on how many shots you really miss those "features".

Also, no Digitars??  I would hope not.  I decided against the HR's after seeing the compromise in design.  They are retrofocal lenses with a good amount of pincushion distortion.  The number one reason I spent so much money on a technical camera was to get away from retrofocal lenses.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on July 01, 2008, 11:01:08 am
Quote
After examining the photos that show the back side of the arTec, I take heart. It looks, to me at least, that the MFDB interface is a screw on plate (the bumps in the four corners look like screw heads to me, at least).

No,
that's where the four pins from the Hy6/AFi digital back insert into.

See, the rear of the Hy6 has the same female connector.
 [attachment=7273:attachment]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: MHFA on July 01, 2008, 11:19:36 am
Quote
  I would say try going without the tilts and a goundglass for six months and then see on how many shots you really miss those "features".


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Its not the same but for about 15 years I worked with a Tilt Shift grondglass 5x7" and with a Plaubel Proshift (Like an ALPA with Shift, but without Tilt and Groundglass). Its a very good camera, but I personnally worked better with the TiltShift Groundglass solution.
So, why should I use a camera system with less possibilities?

The LCD on the back is not enough for composing and tethered shooting is not always possible.

I think it is impossible to make a symmetrical 24mm lens.
But without such a lens or a bigger sensor film still offers more possibilities.

Michael Heinrich
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Mort54 on July 01, 2008, 11:22:57 am
Quote
No,
that's where the four pins from the Hy6/AFi mount insert into.
You're right. After blowing up the images, I came to the same conclusion. Sigh. If that interface isn't removable, then mounting non Hy-6 MFDBs would indeed be an issue.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Mort54 on July 01, 2008, 11:23:59 am
Ooops. I hit the wrong button.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 11:39:22 am
You are not dense, Billy!

The front part with the lens board rotates and makes an initial tilt to rotate as well, making it becoming a combined moved (tilted and swung) plane of sharpness, in respect of the optical axis. The result is the same as tilting and swinging alternatively and separately on a view camera with separate tilt and swing movements/knobs.

Thierry

Quote
I'm not usually dense.
Maybe an exploded view of the separate components of the arTec would help.

I don't see where the entire front would detach allowing for the tilt knob to be at the bottom allowing for swing.

And, how does the lens rise to exclude the foreground.  I don't see the vertical scales.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on July 01, 2008, 11:42:22 am
I need to see it on YouTube, please
Seriously  
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Gigi on July 01, 2008, 11:43:43 am
While there is a lot more to see and learn about this camera, I'm terribly excited as well.

The 4x5 sits on the shelf - film handling is a bit tough these days for the non-pro without assistant; the use of 6x12 film means compose, back on, back off routine. Hard to do quickly in the middle of the city.

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

So lets get the data sheet, price, get things moving here. When will it be ready? We're all waiting!

Geoff
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Morgan_Moore on July 01, 2008, 11:48:48 am
TH

is there an interface plate beween the HY6 fitting and the old P1/2/3 cameras yet

If so you have finally tied your system together

(apart of the baffiling selection of same focal lenght different mount lenses  )

S
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 11:49:32 am
hi Adam,

the back is pretty much in the center when in exposure position. The weight of the groundglass and viewer are neglectful and won't affect. The construction is very sturdy and offers maximum stability.

Quote
please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that when the back is behind the lens, ready for exposure, all the weight from the groundglass, viewer and back is on one side of the camera, at the time where you need the most stabile and even weight distribution.

KR Adam
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: adammork on July 01, 2008, 11:52:36 am
Quote
hi Adam,

the back is pretty much in the center when in exposure position. The weight of the groundglass and viewer are neglectful and won't affect. The construction is very sturdy and offers maximum stability.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204804\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good to hear, Thanks

/adam
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 11:57:56 am
hi Mort,

I am not sure what you understand under "MFDB interface", but yes, all our adapters can be taken away, including the Hy6 adapter which (revolving or non-revolving adapter) is used for the eMotion backs.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hi Thierry. Thank you for the quick response.

After examining the photos that show the back side of the arTec, I take heart. It looks, to me at least, that the MFDB interface is a screw on plate (the bumps in the four corners look like screw heads to me, at least). If the MFDB interface can be removed, then I have no doubt that a third party can provide plates for other MFDB mounts. Since this is a technical camera, the proprietary electronic interface of the Hy-6 isn't needed - only mechanical adapters are needed.

I would be interested in hearing back from you as to whether my assumption that the MFDB interface is implemented as a removable plate is correct.

Regards,
Mort.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204779\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 12:00:33 pm
yes, right.

Thierry

Quote
No,
that's where the four pins from the Hy6/AFi digital back insert into.

See, the rear of the Hy6 has the same female connector.
 [attachment=7273:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204783\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: adammork on July 01, 2008, 12:02:23 pm
Quote from: Geoffreyg,Jul 1 2008, 03:43 PM

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

Yes, you can use the Alpa's very well with groundglass, I have been doing this almost daily the last 18 month and +60.000 exposures....

Shift V +25/-15mm Shift H +20/-20mm is a lot, BUT Shift V +45/-25mm Shift H +25/-25mm is generous  

/adam
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: schaubild on July 01, 2008, 01:05:19 pm
Quote
....

I think it is impossible to make a symmetrical 24mm lens.
But without such a lens or a bigger sensor film still offers more possibilities.

.....


You didn't follow the market in the last few years, didn't you?

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/d...itar_apo_wm.pdf (http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/dig/pdf/digitar_apo_wm.pdf)

Works perfectly on Alpa's, for example.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on July 01, 2008, 01:32:50 pm
Quote from: adammork,Jul 1 2008, 04:02 PM
Quote from: Geoffreyg,Jul 1 2008, 03:43 PM

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

Yes, you can use the Alpa's very well with groundglass, I have been doing this almost daily the last 18 month and +60.000 exposures....

Shift V +25/-15mm Shift H +20/-20mm is a lot, BUT Shift V +45/-25mm Shift H +25/-25mm is generous  

/adam
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


 i totally agree that one can use the alpas, and some alpa photographers  ( as you ) are among the best worldwide. but, and this was always my point : not for all of us but for many the transition to digital is a very expensive decision. easily it costs you together with 4 or 5 lenses and a 33/39 mp back 40 - 60.000$, or even more.
but if you are still working with 4x5" film many have the feeling, and this feeling is not untrue,- that even if you invest this money you still end up with several compromises. and this is not very sexy, after spending so much money.
so, many photographers i know still are waiting. waiting for a solution which still might crack their bank account ( or not ) , but which at least looks attractive and not just as a compromise and a transition they have to make because some erics adams or rainers already are working digital and you think you HAVE to make it now too. unfortunately this even might be true. if you want to compete in the actual ( commercial ) market, its time to change to digital.

and i think there are too big  compromises in the existing systems. good built or bad built. they are not thought till the end, i.m.h.o. all of them.
compromises in terms of wide-angle lenses and shift capacities or compromises of the way you have to compose your images.
if you worked with 4x5" you probably haven't used a linhof press camera with viewfinder, you used a technikardan or whatever with ground-glass and a nice bright image. and for lf photographers which are habituated to see their motif large and bright on their groundglasses its a big step in now where land to compose now with viewfinders or with lcds. of course you can do that. but do you want that if you already are in front of the decision and seeing the price of it and waht you will loose after the change ?

sure it works to shoot with viewfinder, sure you can unmount and mount your back 60.000 times ( and control it every second time or every time again if you got new dust-spots ) . if you see a spot, i know, no problem  : sensors are easy to clean   .

yes you can,  as eric suggests, roughly compose your image with this nice big and optical viewfinders, abstract the exact shifts, abstract the curved distorted lines, abstract the mask if you usea 90mm lens, put the camera more or less parallel with the image and fine adjust your back afterwards  in making 10 exposures and adjusting the back millimeter by millimeter, shading with your hands the lcd. you can do this even in bright sunlight. no problem.
but is it tempting for a photographer who compares this with the way he is ued to compose his images in his 4x5" system if he still hasnt had made the change ?

the real problem is that this compromises appear after you invested 40., 50, 60.000 $ or € .
 the real advantages of the digital capturing itself you will probably have  found out 1 year later, if you learned how much more you can do with your back than simply replacing your film with a sensor and ruining your lab. at this point probably you accept also the compromises in your system, because you learned to live with them and you see, that the results in your images are good and even much better than ever before on your old film system.

in case of the alpa its even a very nice compromise cause they are fantastic built, they have a very well thought and proof-en system behind and they offer a lot of movements since introduction of the xy.
in case of the ( somehow ) cheaper systems as the cambo you save some money ( not that much seing the costs of the whole system with sensor ) but now even the sex of the alpas is gone.

of-course, if you are a good photographer you can make good images with it. if you are a great photographer you`ll make great images with it.  with all of this cameras.

my photographs dont suffer in any way because i use my gottschalt camera, but i always knew what to make better in this camera and its obvious that my camera is not on alpa ( or sinar ) standard in terms of tolerances. so i check many wide angle shots if the are sharp on both sides. mostly they are. and hey... its not a big deal. as for adam its not a big deal to remove and to mount the sensor 60.000 times. or for eric to adjust his frames with exposures on the lcd.

but i wanted something smoother, something more intuitive, something more 4x5" like.
to my own surprise sinar listened to me. thats all. here is the camera.

p.s.
about the 23-mm: i havent known it before and thats really exciting news for me to have soon a true ( AND SHIFTABLE ) wide angle lens.

Eric: i start to take it personal now   . believe me,  if the HR would distort too much i simply wouldn't use it. i am experienced enough and demanding enough to say this, ( as you are too ).
the HRs are not perfect and the new 23 shouldn't be worthier. but somewhere is a point for me where i loose the interest in more perfection, and this is when the things work fine and smooth. so it is working with the HR lineup. my images usually have straight lines. wthout that i would make  here any compromises its very very rare that i post pro some distortion correction. and i use the HR line in 80% of my shots.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: PdF on July 01, 2008, 02:21:42 pm
A question :

Are the horizontal AND the vertical shift on the rear of the camera ? It seems that the vertical is not independant of the (tilt) lens board.

PdF
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: MHFA on July 01, 2008, 02:22:41 pm
Quote
You didn't follow the market in the last few years, didn't you?

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/d...itar_apo_wm.pdf (http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/dig/pdf/digitar_apo_wm.pdf)

Works perfectly on Alpa's, for example.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=204824\")



I think the 24 is nearly symetric, but not at all:

[a href=\"http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/dig/pdf/z_td_apo_xl_56_24.pdf]http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/dig...po_xl_56_24.pdf[/url]

Michael Heinrich
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: hubell on July 01, 2008, 02:43:42 pm
I would like to commend Sinar and, of course, Rainer, for joining together to develop such an innovative product. It reflects a high degree of collaboration with an exceptionally skilled working photographer who understands exactly what he needs. If it turns out it can only be used with Sinar and Leaf AFI backs, I understand the business imperative behind that decision(much as I would like to buy one to use with a Hasselblad back).  Sinar provided all of the R&D funding for the camera's development. Sinar should be allowed to make the business judgment as to how to best maximize its return from the R&D investment. It is an uphill struggle for Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar to get prospective buyers to take a close look at their products and test them out. By offering a camera or lenses that you can only use if you buy one of their digital backs, they at least put themselves in a position where someone will take a much closer look at their backs and not reflexively opt for a Phase back.
If anyone who owns a Phase back is pissed, I would suggest flooding Phase One with e-mails complaining about its lack of product innovation(unless you think the LCD on the Plus Series backs or the "update" of the AFDII qualifies as product innovation). Phase One has been the 800 pound gorilla in this market. Why did Phase not work with Arca or Alpa and fund the development of such a camera? The answer, by the way, is that Phase has enjoyed a nice long run of others doing the dirty work of camera and lens development and marketing with its low profit margin(on the road to bankruptcy) while Phase sat back and scooped the profits from its near monopoly position of selling high profit margin digital backs. What a great business model. For Phase! Code word for that ruse: "open architecture".
This latest development tells me, at least, that MR's  advice in his Phase camera review that a prospective buyer of medium format digital should first decide on the digital back is incorrect.  I believe you should first decide on what your photographic needs are.  There may be some cameras, lenses or features that you can only use if you purchase a specific back. Given how close in performance the various digital backs are now, why would I pick  Back X if I really wanted to use Camera Y? Of course, the same goes for certain features of digital backs. If you need long exposure capability, a Phase back is apparently the only game in town.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Gigi on July 01, 2008, 03:13:03 pm
Quote
the real problem is that this compromises appear after you invested 40., 50, 60.000 $ or € .
 the real advantages of the digital capturing itself you will probably have  found out 1 year later, [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well put. THat Eric and others make these systems work is, as you noted, a testimonial to their really good fabrication and capabilities. That said, the idea of opening up the piggy bank and having then compromises doesn't sit well.

Sinar (and you) seem to have gotten the message on what was needed. If priced reasonably, the 4x5 can go on the block, and this is the next way to go.

Geoff
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 03:40:31 pm
hi Sam,

sorry, I don't get what you are asking exactly: adapter plate for the Hy6 on the P series?

can you precise please?

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
TH

is there an interface plate beween the HY6 fitting and the old P1/2/3 cameras yet

If so you have finally tied your system together

(apart of the baffiling selection of same focal lenght different mount lenses  )

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 03:56:33 pm
hi Geoff,

I expect the data sheet with detailed specifications as well as the defintive prices within next  month, for sure before Photokina.
All have worked very hard to get this camera ready for June 30th, which was our deadline to announce it. And we have got 3 prototype samples ready for this event.

2 of those prototypes are now already in the hands of 2 proven photographers (one being Rainer) to get used in real shooting conditions starting this week. The 3rd one is kept by our R&D, obviously.

To those asking or wondering why one does not see any scales or mm prints, or just 1/2 cm prints:
The pics shown by me here are from one of this prototype camera: the angle under which the shots have been taken do not show all the scales and mm prints on it, but they are all there, believe me: H & V shifts, tilt & swing, rotation of the lens board, all in mm or degrees.

I'll try to make some more snapshots within the next days to show it under different angles, but can't promise it for sure.

Our goal is now to get feedback of the use under real conditions within the next couple of weeks to be able to make some last changes, if necessary. Our goal is to have it ready at Photokina and  available for delivery as a finished product shortly after.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
So lets get the data sheet, price, get things moving here. When will it be ready? We're all waiting!

Geoff
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204800\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Gigi on July 01, 2008, 04:00:49 pm
Thanks Thierry, as always.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 04:01:24 pm
Dimensions: 27 x 19 x 7 cm (approx. 11 x 7.5 x 3")

Weight: slightly under 1.5 Kg (approx. 3.2 lbs.)

Thierry

Quote
I'd be interested to know its dimensions and weight, but it looks like it might be compact.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 01, 2008, 04:06:04 pm
Not yet Marc, but all relevant and important specs have been given here so far and won't change anymore.

Anyway, an "official" specs sheet will certainly come soon.
Please bear a bit with us and let us some time.

Thanks,
Thierry

Quote
I am very interested in this camera, but it looks like with all the different question here,
there is a lot to be answered.
Is there not a spec sheet  available where all basic questions are answered and explained?
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204684\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Morgan_Moore on July 02, 2008, 01:43:48 am
Quote
hi Sam,

sorry, I don't get what you are asking exactly: adapter plate for the Hy6 on the P series?

can you precise please?

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204846\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As you know I am always looking for Sinar to integrate  thier system

you new camera looks great helping the HY6 'problem' of a lack of superwide lens

what I am asking is if HY6 plated back go onto your P series view cameras yet without an adapter change

meaning that you system would therefore smoothly offer from supewide to view in a slick manner

S
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: yaya on July 02, 2008, 02:01:56 am
Quote
what I am asking is if HY6 plated back go onto your P series view cameras yet without an adapter change

S
Cambo SLW-81 adapter (http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/Item6821.html) on a Cambo sliding back for Sinar 5X4 (http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/photoconfigurator/english/internet/Group1890.html)
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 02, 2008, 02:42:42 am
Alright, got it:

- an interface plate for the mount of a Sinar Hy6 back to be mounted on the Sinar sliding adapter is in preparation and will be available at Photokina.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
As you know I am always looking for Sinar to integrate  thier system

you new camera looks great helping the HY6 'problem' of a lack of superwide lens

what I am asking is if HY6 plated back go onto your P series view cameras yet without an adapter change

meaning that you system would therefore smoothly offer from supewide to view in a slick manner

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204939\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Prakash Patel on July 02, 2008, 03:24:07 am
Rainer, Stefan,Thierry, & the Sinar team.....thank you guys and congratulations on the new camera intro

Really nice addition to the Sinar ensemble...........to have an optical platform that complements
the efficiency and the elegance of the brumbaer software  and the Sinar hardware with its interchangeable mounts as well as the Sinar technical support (as well as  Xposure, if working tethered......once shadings and color matrices are implemented in the software).

You are right in your observations that photographers can work through many inconveniences and obstacles when dealing with a different technology, often you actually forget these....... using the LCD like a videographer rather than composing on a ground glass.

For me, the important issue with new technologies (digital film) is not to change the archetypical relationship of the person and the tool..........in this case the act of composing a picture on a gridded groundglass with an upside down reversed image. Looking at a 645 image on a groundglass is not the same as a 4x5, but it is definitely different than reacting to a representation on an LCD screen (for many photographers this delineation simply may not matter)

Its great that Sinar acted in the market place instead of reacting to conversations and "features" dictated by other players in the market place.

This may not the camera for everyone....but it is the only one that provides all compositional tools of a traditional view camera along wiht a sliding back on a new optical platform that utilizes a high resolution digital  capture medium.

To be able to incorporate tilt/swing with a sliding back in a wide angle camera system obviously involves physics  and the resulting  specific compromises made by Sinar  may not be acceptable to all shooters.

However, the result of Rainer's collaboration in bringing this product to the market place  is quite impressive.......

regards
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: adammork on July 02, 2008, 05:30:24 am
Quote
i totally agree that one can use the alpas, and some alpa photographers  ( as you ) are among the best worldwide. but, and this was always my point : not for all of us but for many the transition to digital is a very expensive decision. easily it costs you together with 4 or 5 lenses and a 33/39 mp back 40 - 60.000$, or even more.
but if you are still working with 4x5" film many have the feeling, and this feeling is not untrue,- that even if you invest this money you still end up with several compromises. and this is not very sexy, after spending so much money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Rainer - that's a very importen point you are raising here - It could easily deserve it's own thread.

Unfortunately it's the naked truth, you will probably end op using an awful lot of time and to much money before you have a working solution that serves your own need and wishes - and sexy too  

My own road too this solution was not as straight forward that I hoped it would be - I came from using an Arca Monolith and an Arca Misura with a full line of Rodenstocks - a wonderful system for shooting architecture with film, especially the Misura was great! I thought; well I just replace the filmholder with an Aptus 75 and here we go....

Then I discover that the optics is not that exceptional with the Digi back as on film, then I started to change the wides to Digitars, the files were now sharper end free of CA, with sharper I mean most of the time, because after working a couple of month I find out that practically it's almost impossible to get a complete sharp image, on the entier frame, from a 24 mm on a view camera - some times it was hard with the 35mm as well... The Arca's was simply not precise enough - a least in my hands  

Then tested the Alpa XY, and discovered, that what I first thought as being too Swiss - tolerances of 1/100 of a mill, or is it 1/1000? does actually matters in a digital setup as this.

There is some talking about that you have to use a viewfinder or just the LCD  for composing - you are not forced to that - I'm VERY depending on using a groundglass, I use a Hasselblad ArcBody viewing system, with groundglass, exchangeable fresnel's and the reflex finder - I'm not kidding when saying that I prefer this solution over the 4x5's on the Arca's it's both brighter and sharper, and no dark corners due to the 5 different fresnel's you just slides in.

Will my setup be perfect for everybody - No, not even close, we all have very different needs and wishes, Rainer you made stunning images with your Gottschalt camera, but after I hold your camera I was sure it was not for me - my XY will never make you happy due to the lack of  "sliding adapter" - I like to have more than 25mm of shift -  some can compose beautifully on the back's lcd - others will only shoot tethered........ the list goes on.

In a way, it's a bit depressing when you think about it - you are going to spend a hell lot of money, and on the same time not being completely sure if this is going to work for you in the long run.

In that perspective it's only positive that there is a new very competent looking system on the way - It seems indeed that you have found/created your dream Rainer - I have found mine - so after all there is hope  

Very best,
Adam
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on July 02, 2008, 08:41:33 am
Quote
00? does actually matters in a digital setup as this.

There is some talking about that you have to use a viewfinder or just the LCD  for composing - you are not forced to that - I'm VERY depending on using a groundglass, I use a Hasselblad ArcBody viewing system, with groundglass, exchangeable fresnel's and the reflex finder - I'm not kidding when saying that I prefer this solution over the 4x5's on the Arca's it's both brighter and sharper, and no dark corners due to the 5 different fresnel's you just slides in.


Very best,
Adam
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi adam,
i agree 100%.

2 questions ....:
which fresnels you are using ?
how much is the magnification of your ground glass viewer loupe ?

very best to you,-
( greatings to torben )
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Harold Clark on July 02, 2008, 07:47:37 pm
Quote
i was invited today to SINAR in swiss to accompany the announcement to distributors. the first prototype together with some lenses was  finished last thursday and i received no.1 for testing it now on real work .....
to my surprise there was not a single compromise made regarding the specifications i gave to SINAR. in contrary the camera can do more than i was asking for.... looks great. Eventually a camera which can do all i am asking for in digital architecture shooting.

 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Excellent, Rainer, and Sinar. I have been investigating the architectural cameras and found them all wanting in some regard.

The most obvious deficit to me is lack of a sliding back to permit ground glass viewing. The Silvestri comes close, but is more limited in movements and a couple of users I have corresponded with have expressed concerns about quality control and precision with the Bicam.

One useful feature the Silvestri has is a bellows accessory to allow longer, board mounted lenses ( although only to 120mm or so ). This would be a great addition to the Sinar, especially if it would allow lenses up to the 300mm range. I do quite a bit of architecture, but also industrial photography and landscapes. One camera for multiple uses has a great appeal, for both cost and ease of transport.

I did all my film based architecture with a Sinar Norma, in 4x5 and 5x7. I still use it for personal work, and love the precision. I am sure this new camera will be a winner too.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on July 04, 2008, 08:36:23 pm
Sinar ArTec PDF

http://www.image2output.com/user_resources...Sinar_Artec.pdf (http://www.image2output.com/user_resources/TextFiles/pdfs/Sinar_Artec.pdf)

Cheers,
Willem.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on July 04, 2008, 08:46:25 pm
Thank you, Willem.
The additional images in the PDF very clearly answers the questions I've raised in this thread.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on July 04, 2008, 09:14:31 pm
Yes,
it is certainly a hell of a camera.
I better start saving for that 28HR!
Cheers,
Willem.

N.B What I like is that I can that I can remove my eMotion 75 with the rotating adapter,from my Hy6 and mount it straight on the ArTec!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Caracalla on July 04, 2008, 09:36:41 pm
Quote
What I like is that I can that I can remove my eMotion 75 with the rotating adapter,from my Hy6 and mount it straight on the ArTec!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

W O W  !!! I presume you are talking about SINAR not LEAF Hy6! So if you can't do that man..... flush it down the toilet and I mean that seriously!

Where is the logic here, you pay so much money for product made by/for SINAR (hy6) and than you pay again for product made by SINAR (ArTec) to act happy just because you can remove your eMotion 75 with the rotating adapter, from my Hy6 and mount it straight on the ArTec!

Rethmeier, you are a great and respected photoapher, PLEASE DON'T ACT THAT HAPPY!!! You are not doing your self a favor, there is still a huge list of what SINAR needs to do/fix  

PRETEND THIERRY DOESN'T EXIST, WHERE/WHO/WHAT IS SINAR
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 04, 2008, 09:57:11 pm
... he can't: he doesn't have it yet!
 

Quote
flush it down the toilet and I mean that seriously!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Willem is somebody enthusiastic about all nice things: let him be. Is it not nice to see people happy rather than complaining for all?
Quote
Where is the logic here, you pay so much money for product made by/for SINAR (hy6) and than you pay again for product made by SINAR (ArTec) to act happy just because you can remove your eMotion 75 with the rotating adapter, from my Hy6 and mount it straight on the ArTec!
Rethmeier, you are a great and respected photoapher, PLEASE DON'T ACT THAT HAPPY!!! You are not doing your self a favor,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

as ...?
Quote
... there is still a huge list of what SINAR needs to do/fix  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Feuerthalen, Switzerland/a few dedicated, serious and motivated people at the service of their passion/the only manufacturer having a complete system for all needs, from cameras, over accessories and lenses, to MF digital backs.

Best regards,
Thierry
Quote
PRETEND THIERRY DOESN'T EXIST, WHERE/WHO/WHAT IS SINAR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Caracalla on July 04, 2008, 10:06:53 pm
Quote
... he can't: he doesn't have it yet!
 
Willem is somebody enthusiastic about all nice things: let him be. Is it not nice to see people happy rather than complaining for all?
as ...?
Feuerthalen, Switzerland/a few dedicated, serious and motivated people at the service of their passion/the only manufacturer having a complete system for all needs, from cameras, over accessories and lenses, to MF digital backs.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205601\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Therry I can't use my clutch and shift in to 5th gear with you   you are a sweet guy,  not the one responsible remember!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 04, 2008, 10:30:14 pm
Quote
Therry I can't use my clutch and shift in to 5th gear with you   you are a sweet guy,  not the one responsible remember!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: mcfoto on July 05, 2008, 12:03:46 am
Looks like an amazing camera. Well done!
Denis
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on July 05, 2008, 02:08:38 am
"Rethmeier, you are a great and respected photoapher"


Caracalla!

Thank's for the complement!  

Now there is one thing I want for my Hy6!
A Zeiss PC-Mutar 1.4X .

The one that Hasselblad is releasing for the H-series!

Now that's a handy item!

Cheers,
Willem.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: ericstaud on July 05, 2008, 06:45:17 pm
Quote
Dimensions: 27 x 19 x 7 cm (approx. 11 x 7.5 x 3")

Weight: slightly under 1.5 Kg (approx. 3.2 lbs.)

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204852\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What is the width of the camera with the digital back behind the lens and the ground glass off to the side?  It appears to be about 16" wide when capturing.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on July 05, 2008, 07:10:31 pm
Quote
What is the width of the camera with the digital back behind the lens and the ground glass off to the side?  It appears to be about 16" wide when capturing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205798\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

something like that.
of course you move it back to its 11" size if you take it down.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: laughingbear on July 07, 2008, 08:54:25 pm
I am new to MFDB, just make my first experiences with the "M". Hence, from my very limitted understanding, the artec is a "dream-come true" tool for landscapes as well.

Did you shoot landscapes with it yet? If so, would you mind showing an example?

I very much like your philosophie concerning manufacturers Rainer, I experienced the same in the synthesizer world, if you know your tool, and provide competent  feedback, you might just get what you want.

BIG congrats on such a successful cooperation with Sinar!

I mean.... WOW!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: adammork on July 15, 2008, 12:14:58 pm
Dear Thierry

Just a thought - after it's no longer just a rumour that the sensor's are getting bigger....

Is it possible to use Schneider digitar's on the arTec ? since the current Rodenstocks HR will not leave that much room for movements in combination with a bigger sensor.

Very best,
adam
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 15, 2008, 05:20:03 pm
Dear Adam,

Thanks for the "thought". It is not planed yet, but why not. I shall feedback this to Sinar.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Dear Thierry

Just a thought - after it's no longer just a rumour that the sensor's are getting bigger....

Is it possible to use Schneider digitar's on the arTec ? since the current Rodenstocks HR will not leave that much room for movements in combination with a bigger sensor.

Very best,
adam
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208415\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on July 15, 2008, 06:58:11 pm
sorry. wrong post. deleted.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Adina on July 17, 2008, 04:40:31 am
Question:

if the arTec has the same DB Mont as the HY6,
can i use the filmbacks (6*4,5,6*6(in future)) from Franke&Heidecke on it ?


Adina ...
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Dustbak on July 17, 2008, 01:45:08 pm
Quote
"Rethmeier, you are a great and respected photoapher"
Caracalla!

Thank's for the complement!  

Now there is one thing I want for my Hy6!
A Zeiss PC-Mutar 1.4X .

The one that Hasselblad is releasing for the H-series!

Now that's a handy item!

Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hmmm.... Willem


For 3600euros I am breaking my head whether I just would not have preferred a Flexbody style solution that can control HC lenses.

It would have made for a smaller & lighter package.

Don't get me wrong I like the fact there is a TS solution for the H now but really... couldn't they just have taken the mount (both back & front), the electronics of the H & replace the mirror box with a bellow with movements?

I think I will have had more than one headache before I plunk down the 3600euros for the TS, I already have a headache because I am sure eventually I will.

Kudos to Sinar & Rainer for spec'ing and developing this new body. Looks like a very nice piece of equipment. I think there have been many interesting developments lately in MF/LF (the lines do seem to disappear) land.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on July 17, 2008, 02:44:45 pm
Quote
Hmmm.... Willem
For 3600euros I am breaking my head whether I just would not have preferred a Flexbody style solution that can control HC lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was thinking the same. A dedicated body would be much better, as it would not require the addition of a lens element and the disadvantages that brings (1.5x crop factor, loss of 1 stop of light, reduced image quality)
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on July 17, 2008, 03:12:33 pm
Quote
For better or worse, it's the added lens element that provides the image circle to allow shift.  A new flexbody would require new lenses to achieve coverage for shift.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh true.. for the Hasselblad. I was thinking of the Hy6 platform and Willem's wish. Sorry for confusion.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Dustbak on July 17, 2008, 03:12:49 pm
Well, most HC lenses have been designed for 645 anyway so there is at least room for 5mm shift in all directions and probably even a bit more when used with a 48x36 sensor. The only lens with the shift problem will be the HC28.

Having said that I would be surprised if the 28 doesn't have a little bit of extra 'room' on the sides to allow a tiny bit of shift (at a price naturally)

So with a dedicated body, at least 5mm shift and tilt would have been feasible. With every HC lens from 35 up to 300mm
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on July 17, 2008, 04:21:58 pm
Dear Adina,

Theoretically yes: the 600x series 645 film magazine can be mounted to the arTec with the corresponding existing Hy6 adapter, (as well as the 6x6/6x4.45 magazine in preparation).

The point is that this 645 magazine needs to be electrically powered to assure the transport of the film.

In practice this means that the adapter needs some electronics and a battery is necessary as well. Technically feasible but no plans yet.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Question:

if the arTec has the same DB Mont as the HY6,
can i use the filmbacks (6*4,5,6*6(in future)) from Franke&Heidecke on it ?
Adina ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Lust4Life on August 28, 2008, 04:02:38 pm
I've just finished reading all 7 pages of this thread.  I find several questions asking about components prices but no answers.

Did I miss it somewhere?
When will prices, USA, be available.

As a landscape shooter, I find the features of this camera to be right on target of what has been missing for digital.  Just hope the pricing does not preclude it from the meager budget most landscape shooters have.  

Thanks.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on August 28, 2008, 08:14:00 pm
Prices will be published at Photokina, together with the presentation of the camera.
Expect it to be priced around the same range as existing models from other makers.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I've just finished reading all 7 pages of this thread.  I find several questions asking about components prices but no answers.

Did I miss it somewhere?
When will prices, USA, be available.

As a landscape shooter, I find the features of this camera to be right on target of what has been missing for digital.  Just hope the pricing does not preclude it from the meager budget most landscape shooters have. 

Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: mkravit on August 28, 2008, 08:47:32 pm
Quote
Rainer,
I'm very impressed!

This is certainly the Alpa,Horseman etc killer!

Regards,

Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That has to be one of the most off the wall statements I have ever heard. ALPA is here, now and has a huge following. Their cameras are precise, well made and second to none.

How in the world can ANYONE come to a conclusion such as this and make such a subjective statement?

Unbelievable.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rethmeier on August 28, 2008, 09:10:18 pm
Dear Michael,

I hereby apologize to you and all the Alpa,Horseman,Cambo users.

My statement was certainly out of order.

However for some people the arTec might be a better solution for their photography.

Happy shooting!

Regards,

Willem.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: fuzzyfoto on August 29, 2008, 12:10:25 am
alpa has thrown down the gauntlet with regard to technical camera quality. sinar has taken up the gauntlet but it remains to be seen whether the quality of the artec can live up to the quality and durability of alpa cameras. it's a tall task.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on August 29, 2008, 12:30:36 am
I would not have much concerns concerning "quality" and "durability", given our long history and experience when manufacturing cameras.

The arTec will be (is) up to the task.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
alpa has thrown down the gauntlet with regard to technical camera quality. sinar has taken up the gauntlet but it remains to be seen whether the quality of the artec can live up to the quality and durability of alpa cameras. it's a tall task.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218005\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on September 04, 2008, 10:27:10 am
I guess some interesting information concerning the Sinar arTec camera:

1. Availability

The arTec is confirmed to be available in October 2008, after the Photokina

2. Adaption

It is planed to have a Hasselblad V interface available as per 1st Q 2009

Best regards,
Thierry
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on September 20, 2008, 01:20:01 am
Update

The first serie of 25 Sinar arTec cameras are in production since last week. Shipment of the first units to our distributors should start after Photokina.

Best regards,
Thierry
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on September 20, 2008, 05:21:55 am
Quote
Update

The first serie of 25 Sinar arTec cameras are in production since last week. Shipment of the first units to our distributors should start after Photokina.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222820\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

congratulations to SINAR.
honestly i was not expecting that the camera will ship so fast.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: marcwilson on September 22, 2008, 03:38:57 pm
with the wide lenses available for this camera, how much real world shift/rise/fall can be got from them...ie the 23/28/35 lenses.

Thanks.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on September 22, 2008, 03:48:04 pm
Quote
with the wide lenses available for this camera, how much real world shift/rise/fall can be got from them...ie the 23/28/35 lenses.

Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223379\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
with the 28+35HR you can have shift of 12 - 13mm on a 36 x 48mm sensor. havent had the 23mm in my fingers, but what said thierry and what are saying the specs it should be the same.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: marcwilson on September 22, 2008, 03:51:13 pm
Thank you Rainer.

Marc
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Lust4Life on September 24, 2008, 05:54:51 pm
Thierry,

I'm probably missing it - please advise where posting on price structure for the new camera and it's respective compliments can be found now that 'Kina in underway.

Thanks,
Jack


Quote
Prices will be published at Photokina, together with the presentation of the camera.
Expect it to be priced around the same range as existing models from other makers.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217969\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on September 25, 2008, 03:41:31 am
Jack,

Available Kits, lenses and accessories prices have in fact been published a while ago, before Photokina, here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27715 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27715)

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I'm probably missing it - please advise where posting on price structure for the new camera and it's respective compliments can be found now that 'Kina in underway.

Thanks,
Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224116\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Lust4Life on September 25, 2008, 06:51:02 am
Thierry,

I just had no luck finding that thread even though I remembered posting on it - thanks for providing it.
At least now anyone reading this thread will get there as well.

Hope you're finding success at Photokina!
Jack

Quote
Jack,

Available Kits, lenses and accessories prices have in fact been published a while ago, before Photokina, here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27715 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27715)

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: NROCH on September 25, 2008, 04:30:29 pm
I was very excited by the Sinar Artec. As a photographer who has been shooting on 5x4 and more recently digital SLR, I am now making the slow decision to get a digital back/camera combination.

For me, at this stage, the Sinar Artec seems incomplete and not quite refined enough!

My issues with it are:

The tilt mechanism. With all the emphasis on accuracy with digital capture, it seems that the design of the tilt function needs to be further looked at. I feel that it should be geared or controlled in some other way than what it is now. The friction/tightening of it isn't accurate enough for me, I want to be able to adjust the tilt by tiny fractions. Also, the control knob is not in a use-friendly position and the extra locking pin seems a last minute addition. Speaking to the technician (I'm sorry, I forgot his name, of italian decent I believe) it was said that having this mechanism geared would add extra size to the camera, but I can't imagine it would greatly increase this.

I'm not a fan of the locking mechanisms for the geared shift and rise/fall. For me this is something that will get worse over time, using this friction method is something that is used on older 5x4 cameras and seems "chucked" in here. By the end of the day both of the Sinar's on display were no longer function properly.

The rotation of the back is very stiff, on an arca-swiss rotaslide the rotation is much smoother!!

This camera looks to have everything I am looking for. But, I just feel that the whole camera isn't finished enough. It feels, slightly, made up of old camera parts. After holding the ALPA Max, I really felt that it was something that would stand the test of time, the sleds for the movement are excellent. The artec, I felt needed some more time. Refine the mechanisms further, perhaps re-think how it smoothly it should all move and definitely the tilt needs to work better.

I want this camera badly, but not as it is as the moment.

Please, let me know what you think. As an outside observer, and user it is easy to make comments and I know that the designers work on this intensely over many months. Is there more time for adjustments, do you agree with me??? For a new camera, I want it to be on the next level and the most refined camera possible.

And I'd love to be able to use P45 on it soon!!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on September 25, 2008, 05:20:17 pm
NCROCH,

I am a bit surprised by your judgement of the Sinar arTec: the feedback from ALL I have showed and who have touched the camera at our booth was exactly the opposite.

And I have seen none of the 2 cameras displayed not being functioning at the end of the day.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I was very excited by the Sinar Artec. As a photographer who has been shooting on 5x4 and more recently digital SLR, I am now making the slow decision to get a digital back/camera combination.

For me, at this stage, the Sinar Artec seems incomplete and not quite refined enough!

My issues with it are:

The tilt mechanism. With all the emphasis on accuracy with digital capture, it seems that the design of the tilt function needs to be further looked at. I feel that it should be geared or controlled in some other way than what it is now. The friction/tightening of it isn't accurate enough for me, I want to be able to adjust the tilt by tiny fractions. Also, the control knob is not in a use-friendly position and the extra locking pin seems a last minute addition. Speaking to the technician (I'm sorry, I forgot his name, of italian decent I believe) it was said that having this mechanism geared would add extra size to the camera, but I can't imagine it would greatly increase this.

I'm not a fan of the locking mechanisms for the geared shift and rise/fall. For me this is something that will get worse over time, using this friction method is something that is used on older 5x4 cameras and seems "chucked" in here. By the end of the day both of the Sinar's on display were no longer function properly.

The rotation of the back is very stiff, on an arca-swiss rotaslide the rotation is much smoother!!

This camera looks to have everything I am looking for. But, I just feel that the whole camera isn't finished enough. It feels, slightly, made up of old camera parts. After holding the ALPA Max, I really felt that it was something that would stand the test of time, the sleds for the movement are excellent. The artec, I felt needed some more time. Refine the mechanisms further, perhaps re-think how it smoothly it should all move and definitely the tilt needs to work better.

I want this camera badly, but not as it is as the moment.

Please, let me know what you think. As an outside observer, and user it is easy to make comments and I know that the designers work on this intensely over many months. Is there more time for adjustments, do you agree with me??? For a new camera, I want it to be on the next level and the most refined camera possible.

And I'd love to be able to use P45 on it soon!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: MHFA on September 26, 2008, 02:30:31 am
NCROCH,
I am also wondering about your comment. You used it or have you seen it only on the Photokina? I used the camera for a while and all my experiences are totally different. The Tilt mechanism has a 100% lock on 0. All the mechanism are Sinar-like, but I think there is nobody doubting about the mechanical qualities of a Sinar P?
ALPA has a different concept. The shift movements are more exactly on the ALPA(screwing, not shifting), but very slow. I worked with both cameras and I think you will better do the same.
The Workflow of a totally new system is more important as the first impressions....
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: NROCH on September 26, 2008, 02:31:20 am
Quote
NCROCH,

I am a bit surprised by your judgement of the Sinar arTec: the feedback from ALL I have showed and who have touched the camera at our booth was exactly the opposite.

And I have seen none of the 2 cameras displayed not being functioning at the end of the day.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224383\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hello Thierry.

I am still impressed with the camera, and it is the most complete that I have seen in terms of functions it can offer. But it doesn't feel finished completely, even the technicians I spoke to said that they are aware of the tilt issue and that final adjustments to design could be made.

But I honestly felt that it wasn't refined enough, and with regards to the cameras not functioning, the locking mechanisms on the geared movements weren't working. You could knock the knobs slightly when it locked position and they still moved, and also the shift lock suffered the same problem. Maybe this was due to people playing with them and perhaps not using them correctly, I'm not sure.

Best Regards

Nick
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: MHFA on September 26, 2008, 02:49:17 am
Quote
Hello Thierry.

I am still impressed with the camera, and it is the most complete that I have seen in terms of functions it can offer. But it doesn't feel finished completely, even the technicians I spoke to said that they are aware of the tilt issue and that final adjustments to design could be made.

But I honestly felt that it wasn't refined enough, and with regards to the cameras not functioning, the locking mechanisms on the geared movements weren't working. You could knock the knobs slightly when it locked position and they still moved, and also the shift lock suffered the same problem. Maybe this was due to people playing with them and perhaps not using them correctly, I'm not sure.

Best Regards

Nick
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Don`t feel, work with it and you will see that your first impressions are wrong....
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on September 26, 2008, 04:05:46 am
yes, Michael, that's what I think as well.

Thierry

Quote
Don`t feel, work with it and you will see that your first impressions are wrong....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224506\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on September 26, 2008, 06:22:29 am
Quote
Hello Thierry.

I am still impressed with the camera, and it is the most complete that I have seen in terms of functions it can offer. But it doesn't feel finished completely, even the technicians I spoke to said that they are aware of the tilt issue and that final adjustments to design could be made.

But I honestly felt that it wasn't refined enough, and with regards to the cameras not functioning, the locking mechanisms on the geared movements weren't working. You could knock the knobs slightly when it locked position and they still moved, and also the shift lock suffered the same problem. Maybe this was due to people playing with them and perhaps not using them correctly, I'm not sure.

Best Regards(

Nick
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi Nroch,

i am using several months my prototype. i have shot now many productions with it. coldest weather has been -20 degrees ( exhibition in a frozen chamber of an art object in a museum ) till + 50 in south spain in the sun.  nothing broke or didnt work ( i am still excited how smooth and precise i can work with the camera ).

i have only 4 lenses ( 28-45-70-90 ) with the artec at the moment,-
( i would have six with the gottschalt --- 28-35-45-60-90-100 ).  
for sure i will get more lenses in the future, but even with this lens line its a 100% pleasure to use the system and i didnt went back to my old setup one day since i have the artec.

my prototype already dont has the 0 adjust knob for the tilt & this was the only practical issue i could have with it that it needed attention to have the tilt at 0,- but we ( sinar + me ) have been aware from the beginning that there need to be a clear 0 point ).
now sinar has built the 0 adjust knob  in the first artec serial, although i will ask to make this knob a little bit bigger, so one can touch him better.

i dont think the camera is not ready enough, cause it works perfect as it is now.
this is what i personally needed. a flawless working camera with a flawless working digital back.
all what can come in the future might improve the things, but first time in my (digital) photographic live i have a tool with which i can work without using "work- arounds".
its a pleasure to use it.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: NROCH on September 26, 2008, 03:16:00 pm
Quote
NCROCH,
I am also wondering about your comment. You used it or have you seen it only on the Photokina? I used the camera for a while and all my experiences are totally different. The Tilt mechanism has a 100% lock on 0. All the mechanism are Sinar-like, but I think there is nobody doubting about the mechanical qualities of a Sinar P?
ALPA has a different concept. The shift movements are more exactly on the ALPA(screwing, not shifting), but very slow. I worked with both cameras and I think you will better do the same.
The Workflow of a totally new system is more important as the first impressions....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is of course first impressions, after reading much and then getting first hands on it. I feel each camera has their specific differences and benefits, and I have myself used the Sinar P with great joy. This is not a Sinar P in the sense it is aiming to be more portable and tailored for digital but with all the mechanics. As with any new kit, a good test with it will yield whether it is correct for the user or not. These are my initial queries, it is not uneducated but going on past experiences. Some of my issues were acknowledged by Sinar as something they were aware of, mainly the knob for the tilt and the locking pin on the opposite side.

It's good to hear that the camera is serving you well Rainer and is a pleasure to use, I certainly hope it will be the same for me and my initial impressions are a thing of the past!!

Many thanks for the feedback.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Harold Clark on October 05, 2008, 07:20:06 pm
Thierry,

Do you know if pricing has been established for Canada/USA yet? I am a long time Sinar user, I have 4x5 & 5x7 Norma which are used only for personal work now, my commercial clients require digital. I really miss ground glass viewing as I had when shooting architecture on film.  

One accessory which would be very useful would be a bellows attachment ( Like Silvestri ) which would allow use of longer lenses with a more complete range of movements. Do you know if anything like this is planned?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on October 05, 2008, 07:57:45 pm
Dear Harrold,

You can get the prices from SBI USA. Contact one of the following sales manager:

MARK MATHER
mmather@sinarbron.com
CA, ID, NV, OR, WA
(661) 252-9460 (OFFICE)
(661) 252-9470 (FAX)       

JIM REED
jreed@sinarbron.com
NJ, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK CITY
(917) 402-7550 (OFFICE)
(866) 498-4951 (FAX)
 
MIKE FLUITT
mfluitt@sinarbron.com
AR, KS, LA, MO, OK, TX
(972) 841-2360 (OFFICE)       

DAVE MCRITCHIE
dmcritchie@sinarbron.com
CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, NH, PA, RI, UPSTATE NY, VA, VT, WASHINGTON DC, WV
(603) 867-1813 (OFFICE)
(603) 965-0328 (FAX)  

I shall forward your suggestion about a "bellow" accessory.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Harold Clark
Thierry,

Do you know if pricing has been established for Canada/USA yet? I am a long time Sinar user, I have 4x5 & 5x7 Norma which are used only for personal work now, my commercial clients require digital. I really miss ground glass viewing as I had when shooting architecture on film.  

One accessory which would be very useful would be a bellows attachment ( Like Silvestri ) which would allow use of longer lenses with a more complete range of movements. Do you know if anything like this is planned?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: John MacLean on November 12, 2008, 03:56:37 am
Hi Thierry,

Last week I went to the Calumet Los Angeles demo presented by Jack Ridley and Mark Mather.

I had a chance to shoot 1 of the 3 bodies there. My experience was pleasurable with the camera, except I have to agree with NCROCH about the tilt issue. This movement needs to be geared.

I didn't read all the posts here so I don't know if this was discussed, but I was wondering why the tripod thread isn't on the nodal point?

I didn't rotate the back, which was the eMotion75. My experience with that is the color seems to be uneven across the image. Several views taken outdoors had this visible in the parking lot pavement. The WB in Adobe Camera Raw is also very off, possible as I don't see it in the supported list. I had to add lots of Tint (+88) to get anywhere close to decent color. My DNG files are available.

Lastly the price. I nearly fell off my chair when I heard the body is going to be $14k. Are you kidding me? Even the reps thought that Sinar was trying to recoup the R&D on the first sale. They also said it was competing with the ALPA and Cambo Wide. I just can't see spending anywhere near that amount for such a basic tool. I think the specialty camera makers are completely out of touch with the users. Personally I think I'd rather have a couple of 5D Mark II's and $7500 left over.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on November 12, 2008, 05:11:20 am
Dear John,

I will let Rainer answer the technical part of the "nodal point", since he has more praxis with it.

the Sinar recommended price is Euro 7'226.-, a "little" less than what you have been told. In some countries it is sold less than this.

I am not sure whom rep had these thoughts about "recoup the R&D", and it is completely wrong, for the record.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: John MacLean
Hi Thierry,

Lastly the price. I nearly fell off my chair when I heard the body is going to be $14k. Are you kidding me? Even the reps thought that Sinar was trying to recoup the R&D on the first sale. They also said it was competing with the ALPA and Cambo Wide. I just can't see spending anywhere near that amount for such a basic tool. I think the specialty camera makers are completely out of touch with the users.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: bdp on November 12, 2008, 05:49:13 am
Dear John,

The uneven colour you see in the image is most likely because a customised white shading correction file was not used during the processing of the images. From my experience with the eMotion75 (and the experience of another owner here in Australia) it is essential to create and use a basic shading correction for every shot, even with a standard lens with no swings and tilts because the factory supplied shading file leaves a green tint in the centre of the image and a magenta halo around the edges. Once you have done this simple step there is no problem with colour casts in your image. You do not need to do this individually for every shot - just once will be enough for most, then apply it to every shot. Think of your newly created shading file as the new factory file and go from there.

Ben
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on November 12, 2008, 06:12:24 am
Quote from: bdp
Dear John,

The uneven colour you see in the image is most likely because a customised white shading correction file was not used during the processing of the images. From my experience with the eMotion75 (and the experience of another owner here in Australia) it is essential to create and use a basic shading correction for every shot, even with a standard lens with no swings and tilts because the factory supplied shading file leaves a green tint in the centre of the image and a magenta halo around the edges. Once you have done this simple step there is no problem with colour casts in your image. You do not need to do this individually for every shot - just once will be enough for most, then apply it to every shot. Think of your newly created shading file as the new factory file and go from there.

Ben
this is true with cameras as the hy6 or other retrofocal lenses.
with the artec you usually want to shift and most of the lenses for it are symmetric constructions, which increase colorshifts a lot.
with a system as the artec one should make before every shot a white reference. this is required for all types of sensors in the market, all show color shifts together with symmetric shift lenses.
the point where you mount the tripoid was elected for the weigth balance, its the optimum point in both positions of the sliding back.
i like in my practical work the tilt mechanism, but i will discuss with sinar if this could be made geared.
allthough i dont think that 7200€  translates well to 14000$, the comparation with 5d cameras isnt the right one too.
these shift cameras allow a very different way to work than you could ever make with a 35mm camera.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: John MacLean on November 12, 2008, 02:47:18 pm
Quote from: thsinar
Dear John,

I will let Rainer answer the technical part of the "nodal point", since he has more praxis with it.

the Sinar recommended price is Euro 7'226.-, a "little" less than what you have been told. In some countries it is sold less than this.

I am not sure whom rep had these thoughts about "recoup the R&D", and it is completely wrong, for the record.

Best regards,
Thierry

I think the comment about the R&D was intended more as a joke, but in any case the price is completely insane. There are no micro electronics, just a frame that has 30 year old technology. Why is it so damned expensive? I don't see why these modular bodies should have to cost more than $2k. I wouldn't doubt it quickly going the way of the Hasselblad Arc Body at the current offering.

Ben, I was thinking that was more for vignetting, but yes they did mention that now that I think back about it.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: John MacLean on November 12, 2008, 03:01:12 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
the comparation with 5d cameras isnt the right one too.
these shift cameras allow a very different way to work than you could ever make with a 35mm camera.

Sure I completely agree with you. I used to have a Cambo Wide 580 for 4x5. I bit the bullet and thought spending $3k or thereabouts was too much. My point was how many of us can afford $20-30k for an arTec setup? The average "Joe/Jane the Photographer" can't. And their clients probably aren't discerning enough to know the difference. But we'd like to be able to offer the better image quality if it were more affordable. And then maybe we could wow potentially more sophisticated clients.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: asf on November 12, 2008, 03:08:56 pm
i was quoted about $14k for it when i saw it at photoplus as well as the ny sinar day at fotocare. i thought that was a little high, even though it has so many features.

at photoplus i brought a friend who was in the market for a camera like this (currently uses a view camera but has trouble with wide lenses). neither of us found it particularly inspiring, save for the sliding back.
i was concerned about the tilt mechanism and the small panning base, and hoped the one i saw was a prototype. my friend ended up with an alpa after looking at those.

Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on November 12, 2008, 10:44:30 pm
Dear John,

There is a promotion bundle, the "Sinar arTec-e54r", with the eMotion 54 LV and with revolving adapter, at a recommended price of Euro 15'549,-

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: John MacLean
My point was how many of us can afford $20-30k for an arTec setup? The average "Joe/Jane the Photographer" can't. And their clients probably aren't discerning enough to know the difference. But we'd like to be able to offer the better image quality if it were more affordable. And then maybe we could wow potentially more sophisticated clients.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on November 12, 2008, 10:52:18 pm
John,

keep in mind that this camera has ALL the features included: H & V shifts, tilt, swing, sliding adapter, revolving adapter, 3x lupe/magnifier, pano rotating base. It might be old technology for you, but manufacturing such a camera at high-precision standards and tolerances, together with the limited production for such a market does translate in a recommended price of Euro 7'226.-
Would you add all the needed accessories (sliding adapter, etc ...) to the price of other cameras not having included it, you would even finish at a higher price, sometimes much higher.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: John MacLean
I think the comment about the R&D was intended more as a joke, but in any case the price is completely insane. There are no micro electronics, just a frame that has 30 year old technology. Why is it so damned expensive? I don't see why these modular bodies should have to cost more than $2k.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Harold Clark on November 13, 2008, 02:58:37 pm
Quote from: John MacLean
Sure I completely agree with you. I used to have a Cambo Wide 580 for 4x5. I bit the bullet and thought spending $3k or thereabouts was too much. My point was how many of us can afford $20-30k for an arTec setup? The average "Joe/Jane the Photographer" can't. And their clients probably aren't discerning enough to know the difference. But we'd like to be able to offer the better image quality if it were more affordable. And then maybe we could wow potentially more sophisticated clients.

How things have changed since I bought a used Sinar Norma and a few lenses. Total investment was less than a top end digital lens now. I, like many I am sure, are making do with Canon+shift lenses for architectural shoots but miss the precision, control and quality of 4x5. Investing in a high end digital setup is a risky move right now. Several architects I have spoken to are already scaling back or cancelling outright any new photography.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: John MacLean on November 14, 2008, 02:37:31 pm
Quote from: Harold Clark
How things have changed since I bought a used Sinar Norma and a few lenses. Total investment was less than a top end digital lens now. I, like many I am sure, are making do with Canon+shift lenses for architectural shoots but miss the precision, control and quality of 4x5. Investing in a high end digital setup is a risky move right now. Several architects I have spoken to are already scaling back or cancelling outright any new photography.

Ya I bought a new Sinar F, Schneider/Sinar 210mm lens, and Sinar case (http://www.johnmaclean.com/forsale/pages/z_4x5_sinarf_2lens_kit.htm) in 1985 from Samy's for $1100 (my asking price is jacked up).

Here's a related survey http://archinect.com/features/article.php?id=82131_0_23_0_C (http://archinect.com/features/article.php?id=82131_0_23_0_C)
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: arc-technika on November 18, 2008, 02:42:48 am
Hey Thierry,

I'm sorry if I'm double posting, but I wanted to ask you if you've received any results with the ArTec and a Rodenstock 23mm HR. I'm really excited about this lens and would love to get as much information as I can on it's specifications on different camera systems.


Thank you,
Andrew
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: thsinar on November 18, 2008, 04:27:33 am
Dear Andrew,

Yes, I know that I "owe" this, but unfortunately I have no samples with this lens from myself, yet.

I can refer for some "snapshots" to this link: they have been taken during the Photokina exhibition quickly and with the sample we had, to try it out:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...7063&page=3 (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7063&page=3)

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: arc-technika
Hey Thierry,

I'm sorry if I'm double posting, but I wanted to ask you if you've received any results with the ArTec and a Rodenstock 23mm HR. I'm really excited about this lens and would love to get as much information as I can on it's specifications on different camera systems.


Thank you,
Andrew
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: NROCH on December 23, 2008, 09:55:16 am
uk price has gone up a bit, was about £5,800 + vat, now £6,900 + vat

the 54 kit has gone up by about £2,500

getting harder to justify buying this kit, apart from not being able to use a phaseone.

Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: scott morrish on March 07, 2009, 06:26:26 pm
Hi,

It is astonishing that there are so few well designed cameras for use with high end digital backs. In this context the Artec is a relief.  However having looked at the camera with interest at a trade show recently, i came away with concerns about the tilt mechanism which seemed very loose!  I assume that this was either a prototype, or a fault, but sadly the people supposedly selling it weren't too sure (which was disconcerting bearing in mind the price tag). Is the tilt mechanism a problem... or was i just unlucky with the one i saw?

Also, as a PhaseOne user, i wonder if there are there any plans to offer either H1 or Mamiya adapters (or whatever is needed) to allow the rest of us to use this excellent camera (assuming the tilt is not a real problem of course)?

Hopefully,
Scott
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on March 07, 2009, 06:32:27 pm
Quote from: scott morrish
Hi,

It is astonishing that there are so few well designed cameras for use with high end digital backs. In this context the Artec is a relief.  However having looked at the camera with interest at a trade show recently, i came away with concerns about the tilt mechanism which seemed very loose!  I assume that this was either a prototype, or a fault, but sadly the people supposedly selling it weren't too sure (which was disconcerting bearing in mind the price tag). Is the tilt mechanism a problem... or was i just unlucky with the one i saw?

Also, as a PhaseOne user, i wonder if there are there any plans to offer either H1 or Mamiya adapters (or whatever is needed) to allow the rest of us to use this excellent camera (assuming the tilt is not a real problem of course)?

Hopefully,
Scott

not any problems so far with the tilt mechanism after more than 6 months of work with it. its much more usefull than i thought before having it ....
i use it more often than in my 4x5" days and the zero setting of the artec  (the serial model not the prototypes ) works 100% secure.
no idea about future plans by sinar with other adapters. the h-v adaptr should be available soon.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: scott morrish on March 07, 2009, 06:53:44 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
not any problems so far with the tilt mechanism after more than 6 months of work with it. its much more usefull than i thought before having it ....
i use it more often than in my 4x5" days and the zero setting of the artec  (the serial model not the prototypes ) works 100% secure.
no idea about future plans by sinar with other adapters. the h-v adaptr should be available soon.

Thanks Rainer.

Having thought this sounded like the almost perfect camera for me, i was really hoping that i just saw an anomoly! (The weight of the lens simply was too much for the tilt mechanism!)  As soon as i can attach a P45, i will test this... and hope thereafter that i can avoid any more tradeshows for a long time!

I assume, but i guess it is worth asking, that pre-digital (large format) lenses like schneiders 110xl are still going to be better than H1 lenses and their contemporaries. Is that right... or does one need to start over with the latest 'digital' lenses?

Regards,
Scott
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on March 08, 2009, 07:21:35 pm
Quote from: scott morrish
Thanks Rainer.

Having thought this sounded like the almost perfect camera for me, i was really hoping that i just saw an anomoly! (The weight of the lens simply was too much for the tilt mechanism!)  As soon as i can attach a P45, i will test this... and hope thereafter that i can avoid any more tradeshows for a long time!

I assume, but i guess it is worth asking, that pre-digital (large format) lenses like schneiders 110xl are still going to be better than H1 lenses and their contemporaries. Is that right... or does one need to start over with the latest 'digital' lenses?

Regards,
Scott
i dont have idea how they compare with the H1 lenses, the H has very good lenses too. in general i think as wider the lenses are as more differece in the more modern designs should be, so a 110xl probably might work, but i never tried it.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: scott morrish on April 09, 2009, 01:37:12 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
not any problems so far with the tilt mechanism after more than 6 months of work with it. its much more usefull than i thought before having it ....

Having just looked at a UK supplier for the Artec, whilst trying to find out if the H adapter is available yet, i noted that there is reference to a new tilt mechanism.
Is this 'new' as in last month or so, or is it just something i didn't stumble across before? See quote below.

"New tilting mechanism: Originally the Tilting mechanism for the Lens carrier frame is made of a combination consisting of micro drive and locking lever. So far, in order to apply a tilt movement first the Zero-position locating pin is to be turned open, then the locking lever is released, the tilt movement is made, and finally the lock is set again. Now with the new version, the tilting mechanism does not need any locking levers anymore since it is equipped with a self-locking fine micro-drive. You just move it and it stays in place."

As is often the case with websites, there is no way of knowing how old this is?
Scott
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: yaya on April 09, 2009, 06:16:18 pm
Quote from: scott morrish
Having just looked at a UK supplier for the Artec, whilst trying to find out if the H adapter is available yet, i noted that there is reference to a new tilt mechanism.
Is this 'new' as in last month or so, or is it just something i didn't stumble across before? See quote below.

"New tilting mechanism: Originally the Tilting mechanism for the Lens carrier frame is made of a combination consisting of micro drive and locking lever. So far, in order to apply a tilt movement first the Zero-position locating pin is to be turned open, then the locking lever is released, the tilt movement is made, and finally the lock is set again. Now with the new version, the tilting mechanism does not need any locking levers anymore since it is equipped with a self-locking fine micro-drive. You just move it and it stays in place."

As is often the case with websites, there is no way of knowing how old this is?
Scott

I've not seen/ tried the new mechanism but I had an early loaner ArTec until 2 weeks ago and this was one of the areas that needed improvement, so I am guessing that the info on the website is fairly new.

Yair
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on April 09, 2009, 06:44:21 pm
i tried the mechanism as prototype some weeks ago and it looked very good to me.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on April 09, 2009, 11:27:49 pm
Any mention of the tripod mount being centered below the lens
while they're making improvements?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: scott morrish on April 10, 2009, 03:13:26 am
Quote from: rainer_v
i tried the mechanism as prototype some weeks ago and it looked very good to me.

Excellent news.
Does anyone know how much longer to wait for an H or Mamiya fit adapter.

Thanks,
scott
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on April 10, 2009, 05:04:33 am
Quote from: BJNY
Any mention of the tripod mount being centered below the lens
while they're making improvements?
no.
and i havent heard of any plan to do it, which doesnt mean that it could not appear such change in any moment - ( simply i never talked about and no one spoke about such plan to me ).
also i dont see why it should not been made with an accessory tool, if someone needs that.
if the mount would be directly under the lens it would  unbalance the camera  if it is in viewing position ( you need much more masssif tripoid heads in that case ...) even if the tripoid mount would be under the lens  it still would not be the nodal point because the lenses have different lenghts ....  

i dont like this idea, but that are just my 5%.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on April 10, 2009, 12:17:07 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
even if the tripoid mount would be under the lens  
it still would not be the nodal point because the lenses have different lenghts ....  

i dont like this idea, but that are just my 5%.

IF the tripod mount would be under the lens
then a 100mm or so Arca plate (http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Itemdesc.asp?ic=MPR%2D113&eq=&Tp=) easily positions around nodal point.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on April 10, 2009, 12:54:11 pm
Quote from: BJNY
IF the tripod mount would be under the lens
then a 100mm or so Arca plate (http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Itemdesc.asp?ic=MPR%2D113&eq=&Tp=) easily positions around nodal point.
for the good balance of the artec one can work with very lightweight tripods if necessary, although i usually dont do that, i had situations where i was happy that the camera allows it ( i used successfull the smallest gitzo karbon ....! ) .

if the tripod mount is under the right side ( under the lens board ) this will change a lot.
on the other hand i never had any problems with stitched images,- with closeup distances that might be different but thats not what for the artec is planned originally ,- so for this specific uses  i really would recommend an additional tripod pano mount as mamiya offers.
i never saw any problem with stiched roundshots ( a infinity ) or stitched 28/23mm images.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: harlemshooter on April 10, 2009, 01:10:14 pm
where can i buy this kit?


Quote from: thsinar
Dear John,

There is a promotion bundle, the "Sinar arTec-e54r", with the eMotion 54 LV and with revolving adapter, at a recommended price of Euro 15'549,-

Best regards,
Thierry
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on April 10, 2009, 01:12:10 pm
Quote from: harlemshooter
where can i buy this kit?

Where are you located?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: harlemshooter on April 10, 2009, 01:15:04 pm
manhattan

Quote from: foto-z
Where are you located?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Graham Mitchell on April 10, 2009, 01:24:22 pm
Quote from: harlemshooter
manhattan

Sinarbron lists the following dealers, but I have no idea whether they stock that particular item. Anyway, a good place to start with a few phone calls:

FOTO CARE
136 W. 21ST ST.
NEW YORK, NY 10011
(212) 741-2990
(212) 741-3217 (FAX)
info@fotocare.com
www.fotocare.com         

CALUMET PHOTOGRAPHIC
16 W. 19TH ST.
NEW YORK, NY 10011
(212) 989-8500
(212) 627-9088 (FAX) www.calumetphoto.com

B&H PHOTO
420 9TH AVE.
NEW YORK, NY 10001
(212) 444-6615
(212) 239-7770 (FAX) www.bhphotovideo.com         

K&M CAMERA
385 Broadway
New York, NY
917-860-4137
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: harlemshooter on April 10, 2009, 03:44:33 pm
thanks, fotocare carries it.  they really do care.

Quote from: foto-z
Sinarbron lists the following dealers, but I have no idea whether they stock that particular item. Anyway, a good place to start with a few phone calls:

FOTO CARE
136 W. 21ST ST.
NEW YORK, NY 10011
(212) 741-2990
(212) 741-3217 (FAX)
info@fotocare.com
www.fotocare.com         

CALUMET PHOTOGRAPHIC
16 W. 19TH ST.
NEW YORK, NY 10011
(212) 989-8500
(212) 627-9088 (FAX) www.calumetphoto.com

B&H PHOTO
420 9TH AVE.
NEW YORK, NY 10001
(212) 444-6615
(212) 239-7770 (FAX) www.bhphotovideo.com         

K&M CAMERA
385 Broadway
New York, NY
917-860-4137
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: archivue on April 11, 2009, 09:04:30 pm
CONSIDERING the tripod mount NOT being centered below the lens, and the fact that some peoples wants to use a light tripod head, and others wants to turn around the nodal point...
i would have put two tripod mounts !


So now we have choices...
ALPA XY
ALPA MAX
ARCA RM3D
ARCA RL3D
ARCA M line TWO (probably the most cost effective... no special mounts )
CAMBO RS1000
LINHOF Techno
SILVESTRI BICAM
SILVESTRI Flexicam
SINAR arTec
plus the Hasselblad HTS stuff..
and in some ways FULL frame DSLR and the TS-E PC-E lenses

So many expensive cameras for such a small market !
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: paratom on May 15, 2009, 04:06:09 am
I have a question for Rainer and other ARtec useres:
I wonder how good the Artec works regarding tollerances and reliability of the movements etc.
I had one in my hand once but could not take any images with it.
While the Alpa SWA is maybe prettier I still believe in the end the Artec offers more (more movements, and the posibility to check focus atc. on the groundgrass with the sliding adapter) and prices of the Artec have come down a bit as well.

Another question. How good you feel when using a groundglass in MF-size? Do you find it is bright enough and enough detail to focus accurate?
Its quite a bit smaller than those large format ground glasses. Is it as usefull?

The other question is which lens as a first lens. I plan to use it for landscape 70% and architecture and other stuff 30%, "all just for fun" (I am not a pro).
I tend to go 35mm first and maybe add in a year (if I win the lottery) a 23/24mm and one day 47mm.
However maybe 28 would be the better way to start? Any comments?

Regards, Tom
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: archivue on May 15, 2009, 04:55:02 am
Quote from: paratom
While the Alpa SWA is maybe prettier I still believe in the end the Artec offers more (more movements, and the posibility to check focus atc. on the groundgrass with the sliding adapter) and prices of the Artec have come down a bit as well.

for that, you should consider the Arca RM3D with the rotaslide !

you can also mount the RM3D on a rail for longer lenses... probably the most versatile system at the moment !

And above all, the most precise helical mount on the market.


Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: BJNY on May 15, 2009, 06:40:29 am
Mounting a long Arca plate along/parallel to the camera body <-->
then atop this Novoflex focusing rack (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/379019-REG/Novoflex_CASTEL_Q_Castel_Q_Focusing_Rack.html)
I imagine would solve any nodal point issues.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Geoffrey on May 15, 2009, 08:58:39 am
Quote from: archivue
for that, you should consider the Arca RM3D with the rotaslide !

you can also mount the RM3D on a rail for longer lenses... probably the most versatile system at the moment !

And above all, the most precise helical mount on the market.

Is this in production? Anyone got one?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Carsten W on May 15, 2009, 09:38:35 am
Quote from: Geoffrey
Is this in production? Anyone got one?

Wow, there are a lot of comments on what *else* to buy, but no feedback on the arTec, as requested? Where is Rainer when you need him?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: archivue on May 15, 2009, 10:11:09 am
yes the RM3D does exist !

i've played with one, it will be my next camera !
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: ThierryH on May 15, 2009, 10:15:07 am
Rainer is working, and quite busy for the next 2 months.

But let me tell his thoughts about the "nodal point" issue, if allowed: as long as you don´t shoot subjects closer to a few meters (4 - 5 meters) the nodal point not being in the rotation axes is not an issue and can be disregarded and has no influence on the image.

Rainer has said this already, including in this thread.

And yes, the arTec does offer more movement possibilities, in fact it offers ALL movements: H & V shifts, Tilt & Swing, Rotation, Sliding Adapter, etc ..., all in one camera.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: carstenw
Wow, there are a lot of comments on what *else* to buy, but no feedback on the arTec, as requested? Where is Rainer when you need him?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: ThierryH on May 15, 2009, 10:16:19 am
Edited: Deleted for double posting
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on May 15, 2009, 10:17:58 am
Quote from: carstenw
Wow, there are a lot of comments on what *else* to buy, but no feedback on the arTec, as requested? Where is Rainer when you need him?

thats funny.

certainly you were following this tread with much interest....  
the following responses in this tread have been from me:

#10
13
14
33
37
48
52
65
72
94
109
121
125
141
143
154
161
174
176
179
184

any question after reading them?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: ThierryH on May 15, 2009, 10:20:00 am
hi Rainer,

Hope you are doing well.

 

Cheers,
Thierry

Quote from: rainer_v
thats funny.

certainly you were following this tread with much interest....  
the following responses in this tread have been from me:

#10
13
14
33
37
48
52
65
72
94
109
121
125
141
143
154
161
174
176
179
184

any question after reading them?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on May 15, 2009, 10:56:50 am
Quote from: ThierryH
hi Rainer,

Hope you are doing well.

 

Cheers,
Thierry
hi thierry,
fine. how are you? still in bangkok or back in europe ?
maybe carstenw could read your responses and these of MFHA too if he finds the time  
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: ThierryH on May 15, 2009, 11:13:11 am
hi Rainer,

still in BKK, but right now in Sing for 1 night, to re-new my Thai visa for the last month there. Then back to Switzerland by June 29th. So boring right now in my room and was thinking to answer for you.

 

Cheers,
Thierry

Quote from: rainer_v
hi thierry,
fine. how are you? still in bangkok or back in europe ?
maybe carstenw could read your responses and these of MFHA too if he finds the time  
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: Carsten W on May 15, 2009, 04:25:34 pm
Haha, I have read the whole thread, don't worry. Tom had some questions though. I was just wondering why when Tom posted questions about the arTec, everyone was recommending to buy a different camera. I recommended to Tom that he ask his questions here because I knew you could answer them.


C


Quote from: rainer_v
thats funny.

certainly you were following this tread with much interest....  
the following responses in this tread have been from me:
any question after reading them?
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: paratom on May 15, 2009, 05:12:36 pm
Quote from: carstenw
Haha, I have read the whole thread, don't worry. Tom had some questions though. I was just wondering why when Tom posted questions about the arTec, everyone was recommending to buy a different camera. I recommended to Tom that he ask his questions here because I knew you could answer them.


C

Ja, I also have read the whole thread (which gives a lot of helpful information) but was looking for some additional experiences / help.
Kind Regards,Tom
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on May 15, 2009, 11:48:27 pm
Quote from: paratom
I have a question for Rainer and other ARtec useres:
I wonder how good the Artec works regarding tollerances and reliability of the movements etc.
I had one in my hand once but could not take any images with it.
While the Alpa SWA is maybe prettier I still believe in the end the Artec offers more (more movements, and the posibility to check focus atc. on the groundgrass with the sliding adapter) and prices of the Artec have come down a bit as well.

Another question. How good you feel when using a groundglass in MF-size? Do you find it is bright enough and enough detail to focus accurate?
Its quite a bit smaller than those large format ground glasses. Is it as usefull?

The other question is which lens as a first lens. I plan to use it for landscape 70% and architecture and other stuff 30%, "all just for fun" (I am not a pro).
I tend to go 35mm first and maybe add in a year (if I win the lottery) a 23/24mm and one day 47mm.
However maybe 28 would be the better way to start? Any comments?

Regards, Tom

sorry i just saw your questions now. thierry is right . i am very busy these days till end of july .

movements and tolerances are very fine. soon i will get the new artec with the changed tilt mechanism ( geared ), i am looking forward that this might make it more easy to "fine-tune" the tilt settings. but so far no critic from my side to tolerances and how the movements work.

i am not focussing on the groundglas. i use the meter scale on the optic and zoom sometimes to 100%. some people focus on the groundglas, i dont like to do this. but its bright and it is possible to focus accurate, if someone likes to do that.

i would suggest to start with the 35mm. maybe than the 60 and the 23.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: David WM on May 16, 2009, 10:39:31 am
Rainer,    
If you do not use the ground glass for focus, why is it that you use a sliding back system. Wouldn't the system be more compact if you used a rangefinder ( like the Cambo WDS ) and use the LCD  on the DB to preview the image, now that some are getting larger LCD's?

Regards, David

Quote from: rainer_v
i am not focussing on the groundglas. i use the meter scale on the optic and zoom sometimes to 100%. some people focus on the groundglas, i dont like to do this. but its bright and it is possible to focus accurate, if someone likes to do that.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: archivue on May 16, 2009, 11:06:12 am
Quote from: David WM
Rainer,    
If you do not use the ground glass for focus, why is it that you use a sliding back system. Wouldn't the system be more compact if you used a rangefinder ( like the Cambo WDS ) and use the LCD  on the DB to preview the image, now that some are getting larger LCD's?

Regards, David


focusing on the ground glass with ultra wide angle lens (larger than 45mm) and digital back isn't really easy... but using the ground glass for composition is way better than a range finder !

So Sinar Artech and Arca RM3D+ rotaslide are for me the two valuable system for architecture... ground glass and perfect focusing... and tilt !

If same type of screen and live view as the 5DII was possible with a digital back, it will be an other story !
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on May 17, 2009, 12:07:06 am
Quote from: archivue
focusing on the ground glass with ultra wide angle lens (larger than 45mm) and digital back isn't really easy... but using the ground glass for composition is way better than a range finder !

So Sinar Artech and Arca RM3D+ rotaslide are for me the two valuable system for architecture... ground glass and perfect focusing... and tilt !

If same type of screen and live view as the 5DII was possible with a digital back, it will be an other story !

exactly.

and even if mf backs would offer such good live view and lcd as the 5d2, i`d probably still prefer to compose the image on the groundglass.  its somehow a more physical contact with the motif, far less abstract than the lcd live view transmits.
next generation of photographers whi will grow up with digital probably might feel this different. i am educated by 4x5" work and groundglass composing, so this comes most close to what i am used to do.
focussing for architecture is normally not a problem cause many motifs play at infinity. even in interior shootings with wideangle use focussing isnt that critical. and to control the 100% view in any case is the way to go. images can be blurred by several reasons, it has not only to be an unaccurate focus setting, so better to check each shot afterwards a second.
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: paratom on May 17, 2009, 06:16:25 am
Quote from: rainer_v
exactly.

and even if mf backs would offer such good live view and lcd as the 5d2, i`d probably still prefer to compose the image on the groundglass.  its somehow a more physical contact with the motif, far less abstract than the lcd live view transmits.
next generation of photographers whi will grow up with digital probably might feel this different. i am educated by 4x5" work and groundglass composing, so this comes most close to what i am used to do.
focussing for architecture is normally not a problem cause many motifs play at infinity. even in interior shootings with wideangle use focussing isnt that critical. and to control the 100% view in any case is the way to go. images can be blurred by several reasons, it has not only to be an unaccurate focus setting, so better to check each shot afterwards a second.

Thank you Rainer!
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: archivue on May 18, 2009, 03:14:25 am
Quote from: rainer_v
even if mf backs would offer such good live view and lcd as the 5d2, i`d probably still prefer to compose the image on the groundglass.  its somehow a more physical contact with the motif, far less abstract than the lcd live view transmits.


yes, of course, but sometimes in dark atmosphere it helps !
Title: New Sinar arTec camera
Post by: rainer_v on May 18, 2009, 01:21:56 pm
Quote from: archivue
yes, of course, but sometimes in dark atmosphere it helps !
certainly it does and i would like a lot that the mf backs would be at the same point than the canons/nikons are now.
but i think it will not make the use of a sliding back/ groundglass obsolete.