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Author Topic: New Sinar arTec camera  (Read 169057 times)

marcwilson

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« Reply #140 on: September 22, 2008, 03:38:57 pm »

with the wide lenses available for this camera, how much real world shift/rise/fall can be got from them...ie the 23/28/35 lenses.

Thanks.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #141 on: September 22, 2008, 03:48:04 pm »

Quote
with the wide lenses available for this camera, how much real world shift/rise/fall can be got from them...ie the 23/28/35 lenses.

Thanks.
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with the 28+35HR you can have shift of 12 - 13mm on a 36 x 48mm sensor. havent had the 23mm in my fingers, but what said thierry and what are saying the specs it should be the same.
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marcwilson

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« Reply #142 on: September 22, 2008, 03:51:13 pm »

Thank you Rainer.

Marc
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Lust4Life

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« Reply #143 on: September 24, 2008, 05:54:51 pm »

Thierry,

I'm probably missing it - please advise where posting on price structure for the new camera and it's respective compliments can be found now that 'Kina in underway.

Thanks,
Jack


Quote
Prices will be published at Photokina, together with the presentation of the camera.
Expect it to be priced around the same range as existing models from other makers.

Best regards,
Thierry
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thsinar

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« Reply #144 on: September 25, 2008, 03:41:31 am »

Jack,

Available Kits, lenses and accessories prices have in fact been published a while ago, before Photokina, here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27715

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I'm probably missing it - please advise where posting on price structure for the new camera and it's respective compliments can be found now that 'Kina in underway.

Thanks,
Jack
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Lust4Life

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« Reply #145 on: September 25, 2008, 06:51:02 am »

Thierry,

I just had no luck finding that thread even though I remembered posting on it - thanks for providing it.
At least now anyone reading this thread will get there as well.

Hope you're finding success at Photokina!
Jack

Quote
Jack,

Available Kits, lenses and accessories prices have in fact been published a while ago, before Photokina, here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27715

Best regards,
Thierry
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« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 07:00:02 am by Lust4Life »
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NROCH

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« Reply #146 on: September 25, 2008, 04:30:29 pm »

I was very excited by the Sinar Artec. As a photographer who has been shooting on 5x4 and more recently digital SLR, I am now making the slow decision to get a digital back/camera combination.

For me, at this stage, the Sinar Artec seems incomplete and not quite refined enough!

My issues with it are:

The tilt mechanism. With all the emphasis on accuracy with digital capture, it seems that the design of the tilt function needs to be further looked at. I feel that it should be geared or controlled in some other way than what it is now. The friction/tightening of it isn't accurate enough for me, I want to be able to adjust the tilt by tiny fractions. Also, the control knob is not in a use-friendly position and the extra locking pin seems a last minute addition. Speaking to the technician (I'm sorry, I forgot his name, of italian decent I believe) it was said that having this mechanism geared would add extra size to the camera, but I can't imagine it would greatly increase this.

I'm not a fan of the locking mechanisms for the geared shift and rise/fall. For me this is something that will get worse over time, using this friction method is something that is used on older 5x4 cameras and seems "chucked" in here. By the end of the day both of the Sinar's on display were no longer function properly.

The rotation of the back is very stiff, on an arca-swiss rotaslide the rotation is much smoother!!

This camera looks to have everything I am looking for. But, I just feel that the whole camera isn't finished enough. It feels, slightly, made up of old camera parts. After holding the ALPA Max, I really felt that it was something that would stand the test of time, the sleds for the movement are excellent. The artec, I felt needed some more time. Refine the mechanisms further, perhaps re-think how it smoothly it should all move and definitely the tilt needs to work better.

I want this camera badly, but not as it is as the moment.

Please, let me know what you think. As an outside observer, and user it is easy to make comments and I know that the designers work on this intensely over many months. Is there more time for adjustments, do you agree with me??? For a new camera, I want it to be on the next level and the most refined camera possible.

And I'd love to be able to use P45 on it soon!!
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 04:31:21 pm by NROCH »
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thsinar

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« Reply #147 on: September 25, 2008, 05:20:17 pm »

NCROCH,

I am a bit surprised by your judgement of the Sinar arTec: the feedback from ALL I have showed and who have touched the camera at our booth was exactly the opposite.

And I have seen none of the 2 cameras displayed not being functioning at the end of the day.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I was very excited by the Sinar Artec. As a photographer who has been shooting on 5x4 and more recently digital SLR, I am now making the slow decision to get a digital back/camera combination.

For me, at this stage, the Sinar Artec seems incomplete and not quite refined enough!

My issues with it are:

The tilt mechanism. With all the emphasis on accuracy with digital capture, it seems that the design of the tilt function needs to be further looked at. I feel that it should be geared or controlled in some other way than what it is now. The friction/tightening of it isn't accurate enough for me, I want to be able to adjust the tilt by tiny fractions. Also, the control knob is not in a use-friendly position and the extra locking pin seems a last minute addition. Speaking to the technician (I'm sorry, I forgot his name, of italian decent I believe) it was said that having this mechanism geared would add extra size to the camera, but I can't imagine it would greatly increase this.

I'm not a fan of the locking mechanisms for the geared shift and rise/fall. For me this is something that will get worse over time, using this friction method is something that is used on older 5x4 cameras and seems "chucked" in here. By the end of the day both of the Sinar's on display were no longer function properly.

The rotation of the back is very stiff, on an arca-swiss rotaslide the rotation is much smoother!!

This camera looks to have everything I am looking for. But, I just feel that the whole camera isn't finished enough. It feels, slightly, made up of old camera parts. After holding the ALPA Max, I really felt that it was something that would stand the test of time, the sleds for the movement are excellent. The artec, I felt needed some more time. Refine the mechanisms further, perhaps re-think how it smoothly it should all move and definitely the tilt needs to work better.

I want this camera badly, but not as it is as the moment.

Please, let me know what you think. As an outside observer, and user it is easy to make comments and I know that the designers work on this intensely over many months. Is there more time for adjustments, do you agree with me??? For a new camera, I want it to be on the next level and the most refined camera possible.

And I'd love to be able to use P45 on it soon!!
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« Reply #148 on: September 26, 2008, 02:30:31 am »

NCROCH,
I am also wondering about your comment. You used it or have you seen it only on the Photokina? I used the camera for a while and all my experiences are totally different. The Tilt mechanism has a 100% lock on 0. All the mechanism are Sinar-like, but I think there is nobody doubting about the mechanical qualities of a Sinar P?
ALPA has a different concept. The shift movements are more exactly on the ALPA(screwing, not shifting), but very slow. I worked with both cameras and I think you will better do the same.
The Workflow of a totally new system is more important as the first impressions....
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NROCH

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« Reply #149 on: September 26, 2008, 02:31:20 am »

Quote
NCROCH,

I am a bit surprised by your judgement of the Sinar arTec: the feedback from ALL I have showed and who have touched the camera at our booth was exactly the opposite.

And I have seen none of the 2 cameras displayed not being functioning at the end of the day.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Hello Thierry.

I am still impressed with the camera, and it is the most complete that I have seen in terms of functions it can offer. But it doesn't feel finished completely, even the technicians I spoke to said that they are aware of the tilt issue and that final adjustments to design could be made.

But I honestly felt that it wasn't refined enough, and with regards to the cameras not functioning, the locking mechanisms on the geared movements weren't working. You could knock the knobs slightly when it locked position and they still moved, and also the shift lock suffered the same problem. Maybe this was due to people playing with them and perhaps not using them correctly, I'm not sure.

Best Regards

Nick

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« Reply #150 on: September 26, 2008, 02:49:17 am »

Quote
Hello Thierry.

I am still impressed with the camera, and it is the most complete that I have seen in terms of functions it can offer. But it doesn't feel finished completely, even the technicians I spoke to said that they are aware of the tilt issue and that final adjustments to design could be made.

But I honestly felt that it wasn't refined enough, and with regards to the cameras not functioning, the locking mechanisms on the geared movements weren't working. You could knock the knobs slightly when it locked position and they still moved, and also the shift lock suffered the same problem. Maybe this was due to people playing with them and perhaps not using them correctly, I'm not sure.

Best Regards

Nick
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Don`t feel, work with it and you will see that your first impressions are wrong....
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thsinar

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« Reply #151 on: September 26, 2008, 04:05:46 am »

yes, Michael, that's what I think as well.

Thierry

Quote
Don`t feel, work with it and you will see that your first impressions are wrong....
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rainer_v

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« Reply #152 on: September 26, 2008, 06:22:29 am »

Quote
Hello Thierry.

I am still impressed with the camera, and it is the most complete that I have seen in terms of functions it can offer. But it doesn't feel finished completely, even the technicians I spoke to said that they are aware of the tilt issue and that final adjustments to design could be made.

But I honestly felt that it wasn't refined enough, and with regards to the cameras not functioning, the locking mechanisms on the geared movements weren't working. You could knock the knobs slightly when it locked position and they still moved, and also the shift lock suffered the same problem. Maybe this was due to people playing with them and perhaps not using them correctly, I'm not sure.

Best Regards(

Nick
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hi Nroch,

i am using several months my prototype. i have shot now many productions with it. coldest weather has been -20 degrees ( exhibition in a frozen chamber of an art object in a museum ) till + 50 in south spain in the sun.  nothing broke or didnt work ( i am still excited how smooth and precise i can work with the camera ).

i have only 4 lenses ( 28-45-70-90 ) with the artec at the moment,-
( i would have six with the gottschalt --- 28-35-45-60-90-100 ).  
for sure i will get more lenses in the future, but even with this lens line its a 100% pleasure to use the system and i didnt went back to my old setup one day since i have the artec.

my prototype already dont has the 0 adjust knob for the tilt & this was the only practical issue i could have with it that it needed attention to have the tilt at 0,- but we ( sinar + me ) have been aware from the beginning that there need to be a clear 0 point ).
now sinar has built the 0 adjust knob  in the first artec serial, although i will ask to make this knob a little bit bigger, so one can touch him better.

i dont think the camera is not ready enough, cause it works perfect as it is now.
this is what i personally needed. a flawless working camera with a flawless working digital back.
all what can come in the future might improve the things, but first time in my (digital) photographic live i have a tool with which i can work without using "work- arounds".
its a pleasure to use it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 08:58:52 am by rainer_v »
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NROCH

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« Reply #153 on: September 26, 2008, 03:16:00 pm »

Quote
NCROCH,
I am also wondering about your comment. You used it or have you seen it only on the Photokina? I used the camera for a while and all my experiences are totally different. The Tilt mechanism has a 100% lock on 0. All the mechanism are Sinar-like, but I think there is nobody doubting about the mechanical qualities of a Sinar P?
ALPA has a different concept. The shift movements are more exactly on the ALPA(screwing, not shifting), but very slow. I worked with both cameras and I think you will better do the same.
The Workflow of a totally new system is more important as the first impressions....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is of course first impressions, after reading much and then getting first hands on it. I feel each camera has their specific differences and benefits, and I have myself used the Sinar P with great joy. This is not a Sinar P in the sense it is aiming to be more portable and tailored for digital but with all the mechanics. As with any new kit, a good test with it will yield whether it is correct for the user or not. These are my initial queries, it is not uneducated but going on past experiences. Some of my issues were acknowledged by Sinar as something they were aware of, mainly the knob for the tilt and the locking pin on the opposite side.

It's good to hear that the camera is serving you well Rainer and is a pleasure to use, I certainly hope it will be the same for me and my initial impressions are a thing of the past!!

Many thanks for the feedback.

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« Reply #154 on: October 05, 2008, 07:20:06 pm »

Thierry,

Do you know if pricing has been established for Canada/USA yet? I am a long time Sinar user, I have 4x5 & 5x7 Norma which are used only for personal work now, my commercial clients require digital. I really miss ground glass viewing as I had when shooting architecture on film.  

One accessory which would be very useful would be a bellows attachment ( Like Silvestri ) which would allow use of longer lenses with a more complete range of movements. Do you know if anything like this is planned?
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thsinar

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« Reply #155 on: October 05, 2008, 07:57:45 pm »

Dear Harrold,

You can get the prices from SBI USA. Contact one of the following sales manager:

MARK MATHER
mmather@sinarbron.com
CA, ID, NV, OR, WA
(661) 252-9460 (OFFICE)
(661) 252-9470 (FAX)       

JIM REED
jreed@sinarbron.com
NJ, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK CITY
(917) 402-7550 (OFFICE)
(866) 498-4951 (FAX)
 
MIKE FLUITT
mfluitt@sinarbron.com
AR, KS, LA, MO, OK, TX
(972) 841-2360 (OFFICE)       

DAVE MCRITCHIE
dmcritchie@sinarbron.com
CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, NH, PA, RI, UPSTATE NY, VA, VT, WASHINGTON DC, WV
(603) 867-1813 (OFFICE)
(603) 965-0328 (FAX)  

I shall forward your suggestion about a "bellow" accessory.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Harold Clark
Thierry,

Do you know if pricing has been established for Canada/USA yet? I am a long time Sinar user, I have 4x5 & 5x7 Norma which are used only for personal work now, my commercial clients require digital. I really miss ground glass viewing as I had when shooting architecture on film.  

One accessory which would be very useful would be a bellows attachment ( Like Silvestri ) which would allow use of longer lenses with a more complete range of movements. Do you know if anything like this is planned?
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John MacLean

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« Reply #156 on: November 12, 2008, 03:56:37 am »

Hi Thierry,

Last week I went to the Calumet Los Angeles demo presented by Jack Ridley and Mark Mather.

I had a chance to shoot 1 of the 3 bodies there. My experience was pleasurable with the camera, except I have to agree with NCROCH about the tilt issue. This movement needs to be geared.

I didn't read all the posts here so I don't know if this was discussed, but I was wondering why the tripod thread isn't on the nodal point?

I didn't rotate the back, which was the eMotion75. My experience with that is the color seems to be uneven across the image. Several views taken outdoors had this visible in the parking lot pavement. The WB in Adobe Camera Raw is also very off, possible as I don't see it in the supported list. I had to add lots of Tint (+88) to get anywhere close to decent color. My DNG files are available.

Lastly the price. I nearly fell off my chair when I heard the body is going to be $14k. Are you kidding me? Even the reps thought that Sinar was trying to recoup the R&D on the first sale. They also said it was competing with the ALPA and Cambo Wide. I just can't see spending anywhere near that amount for such a basic tool. I think the specialty camera makers are completely out of touch with the users. Personally I think I'd rather have a couple of 5D Mark II's and $7500 left over.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 04:09:12 am by John MacLean »
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thsinar

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« Reply #157 on: November 12, 2008, 05:11:20 am »

Dear John,

I will let Rainer answer the technical part of the "nodal point", since he has more praxis with it.

the Sinar recommended price is Euro 7'226.-, a "little" less than what you have been told. In some countries it is sold less than this.

I am not sure whom rep had these thoughts about "recoup the R&D", and it is completely wrong, for the record.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: John MacLean
Hi Thierry,

Lastly the price. I nearly fell off my chair when I heard the body is going to be $14k. Are you kidding me? Even the reps thought that Sinar was trying to recoup the R&D on the first sale. They also said it was competing with the ALPA and Cambo Wide. I just can't see spending anywhere near that amount for such a basic tool. I think the specialty camera makers are completely out of touch with the users.
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« Reply #158 on: November 12, 2008, 05:49:13 am »

Dear John,

The uneven colour you see in the image is most likely because a customised white shading correction file was not used during the processing of the images. From my experience with the eMotion75 (and the experience of another owner here in Australia) it is essential to create and use a basic shading correction for every shot, even with a standard lens with no swings and tilts because the factory supplied shading file leaves a green tint in the centre of the image and a magenta halo around the edges. Once you have done this simple step there is no problem with colour casts in your image. You do not need to do this individually for every shot - just once will be enough for most, then apply it to every shot. Think of your newly created shading file as the new factory file and go from there.

Ben
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rainer_v

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« Reply #159 on: November 12, 2008, 06:12:24 am »

Quote from: bdp
Dear John,

The uneven colour you see in the image is most likely because a customised white shading correction file was not used during the processing of the images. From my experience with the eMotion75 (and the experience of another owner here in Australia) it is essential to create and use a basic shading correction for every shot, even with a standard lens with no swings and tilts because the factory supplied shading file leaves a green tint in the centre of the image and a magenta halo around the edges. Once you have done this simple step there is no problem with colour casts in your image. You do not need to do this individually for every shot - just once will be enough for most, then apply it to every shot. Think of your newly created shading file as the new factory file and go from there.

Ben
this is true with cameras as the hy6 or other retrofocal lenses.
with the artec you usually want to shift and most of the lenses for it are symmetric constructions, which increase colorshifts a lot.
with a system as the artec one should make before every shot a white reference. this is required for all types of sensors in the market, all show color shifts together with symmetric shift lenses.
the point where you mount the tripoid was elected for the weigth balance, its the optimum point in both positions of the sliding back.
i like in my practical work the tilt mechanism, but i will discuss with sinar if this could be made geared.
allthough i dont think that 7200€  translates well to 14000$, the comparation with 5d cameras isnt the right one too.
these shift cameras allow a very different way to work than you could ever make with a 35mm camera.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 06:35:27 am by rainer_v »
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