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Author Topic: New Sinar arTec camera  (Read 165514 times)

John MacLean

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New Sinar arTec camera
« Reply #160 on: November 12, 2008, 02:47:18 pm »

Quote from: thsinar
Dear John,

I will let Rainer answer the technical part of the "nodal point", since he has more praxis with it.

the Sinar recommended price is Euro 7'226.-, a "little" less than what you have been told. In some countries it is sold less than this.

I am not sure whom rep had these thoughts about "recoup the R&D", and it is completely wrong, for the record.

Best regards,
Thierry

I think the comment about the R&D was intended more as a joke, but in any case the price is completely insane. There are no micro electronics, just a frame that has 30 year old technology. Why is it so damned expensive? I don't see why these modular bodies should have to cost more than $2k. I wouldn't doubt it quickly going the way of the Hasselblad Arc Body at the current offering.

Ben, I was thinking that was more for vignetting, but yes they did mention that now that I think back about it.
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John MacLean

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« Reply #161 on: November 12, 2008, 03:01:12 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
the comparation with 5d cameras isnt the right one too.
these shift cameras allow a very different way to work than you could ever make with a 35mm camera.

Sure I completely agree with you. I used to have a Cambo Wide 580 for 4x5. I bit the bullet and thought spending $3k or thereabouts was too much. My point was how many of us can afford $20-30k for an arTec setup? The average "Joe/Jane the Photographer" can't. And their clients probably aren't discerning enough to know the difference. But we'd like to be able to offer the better image quality if it were more affordable. And then maybe we could wow potentially more sophisticated clients.
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asf

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« Reply #162 on: November 12, 2008, 03:08:56 pm »

i was quoted about $14k for it when i saw it at photoplus as well as the ny sinar day at fotocare. i thought that was a little high, even though it has so many features.

at photoplus i brought a friend who was in the market for a camera like this (currently uses a view camera but has trouble with wide lenses). neither of us found it particularly inspiring, save for the sliding back.
i was concerned about the tilt mechanism and the small panning base, and hoped the one i saw was a prototype. my friend ended up with an alpa after looking at those.

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thsinar

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« Reply #163 on: November 12, 2008, 10:44:30 pm »

Dear John,

There is a promotion bundle, the "Sinar arTec-e54r", with the eMotion 54 LV and with revolving adapter, at a recommended price of Euro 15'549,-

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: John MacLean
My point was how many of us can afford $20-30k for an arTec setup? The average "Joe/Jane the Photographer" can't. And their clients probably aren't discerning enough to know the difference. But we'd like to be able to offer the better image quality if it were more affordable. And then maybe we could wow potentially more sophisticated clients.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar

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« Reply #164 on: November 12, 2008, 10:52:18 pm »

John,

keep in mind that this camera has ALL the features included: H & V shifts, tilt, swing, sliding adapter, revolving adapter, 3x lupe/magnifier, pano rotating base. It might be old technology for you, but manufacturing such a camera at high-precision standards and tolerances, together with the limited production for such a market does translate in a recommended price of Euro 7'226.-
Would you add all the needed accessories (sliding adapter, etc ...) to the price of other cameras not having included it, you would even finish at a higher price, sometimes much higher.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: John MacLean
I think the comment about the R&D was intended more as a joke, but in any case the price is completely insane. There are no micro electronics, just a frame that has 30 year old technology. Why is it so damned expensive? I don't see why these modular bodies should have to cost more than $2k.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Harold Clark

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« Reply #165 on: November 13, 2008, 02:58:37 pm »

Quote from: John MacLean
Sure I completely agree with you. I used to have a Cambo Wide 580 for 4x5. I bit the bullet and thought spending $3k or thereabouts was too much. My point was how many of us can afford $20-30k for an arTec setup? The average "Joe/Jane the Photographer" can't. And their clients probably aren't discerning enough to know the difference. But we'd like to be able to offer the better image quality if it were more affordable. And then maybe we could wow potentially more sophisticated clients.

How things have changed since I bought a used Sinar Norma and a few lenses. Total investment was less than a top end digital lens now. I, like many I am sure, are making do with Canon+shift lenses for architectural shoots but miss the precision, control and quality of 4x5. Investing in a high end digital setup is a risky move right now. Several architects I have spoken to are already scaling back or cancelling outright any new photography.
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John MacLean

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« Reply #166 on: November 14, 2008, 02:37:31 pm »

Quote from: Harold Clark
How things have changed since I bought a used Sinar Norma and a few lenses. Total investment was less than a top end digital lens now. I, like many I am sure, are making do with Canon+shift lenses for architectural shoots but miss the precision, control and quality of 4x5. Investing in a high end digital setup is a risky move right now. Several architects I have spoken to are already scaling back or cancelling outright any new photography.

Ya I bought a new Sinar F, Schneider/Sinar 210mm lens, and Sinar case in 1985 from Samy's for $1100 (my asking price is jacked up).

Here's a related survey http://archinect.com/features/article.php?id=82131_0_23_0_C
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arc-technika

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« Reply #167 on: November 18, 2008, 02:42:48 am »

Hey Thierry,

I'm sorry if I'm double posting, but I wanted to ask you if you've received any results with the ArTec and a Rodenstock 23mm HR. I'm really excited about this lens and would love to get as much information as I can on it's specifications on different camera systems.


Thank you,
Andrew
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thsinar

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« Reply #168 on: November 18, 2008, 04:27:33 am »

Dear Andrew,

Yes, I know that I "owe" this, but unfortunately I have no samples with this lens from myself, yet.

I can refer for some "snapshots" to this link: they have been taken during the Photokina exhibition quickly and with the sample we had, to try it out:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...7063&page=3

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: arc-technika
Hey Thierry,

I'm sorry if I'm double posting, but I wanted to ask you if you've received any results with the ArTec and a Rodenstock 23mm HR. I'm really excited about this lens and would love to get as much information as I can on it's specifications on different camera systems.


Thank you,
Andrew
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Thierry Hagenauer
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NROCH

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« Reply #169 on: December 23, 2008, 09:55:16 am »

uk price has gone up a bit, was about £5,800 + vat, now £6,900 + vat

the 54 kit has gone up by about £2,500

getting harder to justify buying this kit, apart from not being able to use a phaseone.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 05:32:35 pm by NROCH »
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scott morrish

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« Reply #170 on: March 07, 2009, 06:26:26 pm »

Hi,

It is astonishing that there are so few well designed cameras for use with high end digital backs. In this context the Artec is a relief.  However having looked at the camera with interest at a trade show recently, i came away with concerns about the tilt mechanism which seemed very loose!  I assume that this was either a prototype, or a fault, but sadly the people supposedly selling it weren't too sure (which was disconcerting bearing in mind the price tag). Is the tilt mechanism a problem... or was i just unlucky with the one i saw?

Also, as a PhaseOne user, i wonder if there are there any plans to offer either H1 or Mamiya adapters (or whatever is needed) to allow the rest of us to use this excellent camera (assuming the tilt is not a real problem of course)?

Hopefully,
Scott
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rainer_v

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« Reply #171 on: March 07, 2009, 06:32:27 pm »

Quote from: scott morrish
Hi,

It is astonishing that there are so few well designed cameras for use with high end digital backs. In this context the Artec is a relief.  However having looked at the camera with interest at a trade show recently, i came away with concerns about the tilt mechanism which seemed very loose!  I assume that this was either a prototype, or a fault, but sadly the people supposedly selling it weren't too sure (which was disconcerting bearing in mind the price tag). Is the tilt mechanism a problem... or was i just unlucky with the one i saw?

Also, as a PhaseOne user, i wonder if there are there any plans to offer either H1 or Mamiya adapters (or whatever is needed) to allow the rest of us to use this excellent camera (assuming the tilt is not a real problem of course)?

Hopefully,
Scott

not any problems so far with the tilt mechanism after more than 6 months of work with it. its much more usefull than i thought before having it ....
i use it more often than in my 4x5" days and the zero setting of the artec  (the serial model not the prototypes ) works 100% secure.
no idea about future plans by sinar with other adapters. the h-v adaptr should be available soon.
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rainer viertlböck
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scott morrish

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« Reply #172 on: March 07, 2009, 06:53:44 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
not any problems so far with the tilt mechanism after more than 6 months of work with it. its much more usefull than i thought before having it ....
i use it more often than in my 4x5" days and the zero setting of the artec  (the serial model not the prototypes ) works 100% secure.
no idea about future plans by sinar with other adapters. the h-v adaptr should be available soon.

Thanks Rainer.

Having thought this sounded like the almost perfect camera for me, i was really hoping that i just saw an anomoly! (The weight of the lens simply was too much for the tilt mechanism!)  As soon as i can attach a P45, i will test this... and hope thereafter that i can avoid any more tradeshows for a long time!

I assume, but i guess it is worth asking, that pre-digital (large format) lenses like schneiders 110xl are still going to be better than H1 lenses and their contemporaries. Is that right... or does one need to start over with the latest 'digital' lenses?

Regards,
Scott
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rainer_v

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« Reply #173 on: March 08, 2009, 07:21:35 pm »

Quote from: scott morrish
Thanks Rainer.

Having thought this sounded like the almost perfect camera for me, i was really hoping that i just saw an anomoly! (The weight of the lens simply was too much for the tilt mechanism!)  As soon as i can attach a P45, i will test this... and hope thereafter that i can avoid any more tradeshows for a long time!

I assume, but i guess it is worth asking, that pre-digital (large format) lenses like schneiders 110xl are still going to be better than H1 lenses and their contemporaries. Is that right... or does one need to start over with the latest 'digital' lenses?

Regards,
Scott
i dont have idea how they compare with the H1 lenses, the H has very good lenses too. in general i think as wider the lenses are as more differece in the more modern designs should be, so a 110xl probably might work, but i never tried it.
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rainer viertlböck
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scott morrish

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« Reply #174 on: April 09, 2009, 01:37:12 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
not any problems so far with the tilt mechanism after more than 6 months of work with it. its much more usefull than i thought before having it ....

Having just looked at a UK supplier for the Artec, whilst trying to find out if the H adapter is available yet, i noted that there is reference to a new tilt mechanism.
Is this 'new' as in last month or so, or is it just something i didn't stumble across before? See quote below.

"New tilting mechanism: Originally the Tilting mechanism for the Lens carrier frame is made of a combination consisting of micro drive and locking lever. So far, in order to apply a tilt movement first the Zero-position locating pin is to be turned open, then the locking lever is released, the tilt movement is made, and finally the lock is set again. Now with the new version, the tilting mechanism does not need any locking levers anymore since it is equipped with a self-locking fine micro-drive. You just move it and it stays in place."

As is often the case with websites, there is no way of knowing how old this is?
Scott
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yaya

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« Reply #175 on: April 09, 2009, 06:16:18 pm »

Quote from: scott morrish
Having just looked at a UK supplier for the Artec, whilst trying to find out if the H adapter is available yet, i noted that there is reference to a new tilt mechanism.
Is this 'new' as in last month or so, or is it just something i didn't stumble across before? See quote below.

"New tilting mechanism: Originally the Tilting mechanism for the Lens carrier frame is made of a combination consisting of micro drive and locking lever. So far, in order to apply a tilt movement first the Zero-position locating pin is to be turned open, then the locking lever is released, the tilt movement is made, and finally the lock is set again. Now with the new version, the tilting mechanism does not need any locking levers anymore since it is equipped with a self-locking fine micro-drive. You just move it and it stays in place."

As is often the case with websites, there is no way of knowing how old this is?
Scott

I've not seen/ tried the new mechanism but I had an early loaner ArTec until 2 weeks ago and this was one of the areas that needed improvement, so I am guessing that the info on the website is fairly new.

Yair
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rainer_v

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« Reply #176 on: April 09, 2009, 06:44:21 pm »

i tried the mechanism as prototype some weeks ago and it looked very good to me.
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rainer viertlböck
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BJNY

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« Reply #177 on: April 09, 2009, 11:27:49 pm »

Any mention of the tripod mount being centered below the lens
while they're making improvements?
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Guillermo

scott morrish

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« Reply #178 on: April 10, 2009, 03:13:26 am »

Quote from: rainer_v
i tried the mechanism as prototype some weeks ago and it looked very good to me.

Excellent news.
Does anyone know how much longer to wait for an H or Mamiya fit adapter.

Thanks,
scott
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rainer_v

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« Reply #179 on: April 10, 2009, 05:04:33 am »

Quote from: BJNY
Any mention of the tripod mount being centered below the lens
while they're making improvements?
no.
and i havent heard of any plan to do it, which doesnt mean that it could not appear such change in any moment - ( simply i never talked about and no one spoke about such plan to me ).
also i dont see why it should not been made with an accessory tool, if someone needs that.
if the mount would be directly under the lens it would  unbalance the camera  if it is in viewing position ( you need much more masssif tripoid heads in that case ...) even if the tripoid mount would be under the lens  it still would not be the nodal point because the lenses have different lenghts ....  

i dont like this idea, but that are just my 5%.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 05:06:33 am by rainer_v »
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