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Author Topic: Nikon vs. Cannon  (Read 257666 times)

Ray

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« Reply #120 on: April 04, 2007, 07:59:26 am »

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No but it is f/1.2! If a lens is slower its image quality may be better (?) but its still slower. Without wanting to appear rude (I really don't) I've seen this argument too often and its not valid. If you buy an ultra fast lens to use wide open then at least you CAN use it wide open because it has the fast maximum aperture - I have L primes from 24 to 135 and ALL are used wide open when I want/need to.

Why should the point not be valid? If there's a trade-off in image sharpness then that's a disadvantage. Are you saying you don't care about image resolution and sharpness?

My remarks were made in the context of comparing a low noise (at high ISO) FF 5D with a slightly higher-noise, cropped format D2x. With the D2X you can use a faster aperture and lower ISO to get, according to BJL, the same image quality and same DoF. My point of dispute was that you wouldn't if the sharpness of the lens at full aperture is less than it is when stopped down one stop. Seems a perfectly valid point to me, in relation to different format cameras that fit the same types of lenses.
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Ray

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« Reply #121 on: April 04, 2007, 09:15:30 am »

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How do you explain that Michael concluded after comparing the Leica M8 with a Canon G7 that both cameras deliver sharp results at low ISO? The sensor of the G7 has a surface that is about 10 times smaller, and there a pixel density 3 times higher.

This shows very clearly that there are lenses able to resolve at least 3 times more than current 35 mm lenses.
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Bernard,
You are shifting the debate to comparisons of format extremes here. It does appear to be the case that very small lenses can be made that are diffraction limited at apertures of f4 to f5.6. A lens that is diffraction limited at f4 has double the resolution (at the same MTF) of a lens that is diffraction limited at f8.

For some reason, it doesn't appear to be either possible or economical to produce 35mm lenses or APS-C lenses that are even nearly diffraction limited at f4, perhaps because there's so much glass for the light to pass through.

There are also severe limitations of such lenses in small P&S cameras. Shortest equivalent focal length of the G7 lens is 35mm. Widest 35mm equivalent apertures for DoF purposes are f11-f19. You can't get a shallower DoF than f11 (35mm equivalent) on the G7.
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Paul Kay

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« Reply #122 on: April 04, 2007, 10:30:41 am »

"Seems a perfectly valid point to me, in relation to different format cameras that fit the same types of lenses."

So what equivalent exists for a 24mm f/1.4 L lens on a 1.5x or 1.6x camera (from any manufacturer? I accept that a 50/1.2 will equate to the same fov as an 85/1.2, but shorter, fast, FF lenses are difficult to equate to on smaller sensors. Of course I care about sharpness (and bokeh, etc.) but if you haven't got a fast enough lens to shoot the image 'cause it doesn't exist, then you have to use what is available - and believe me the Canon L fast primes are pretty good wide open (I haven't lost a sale from any, lets put it that way!). And test resolution doesn't tell you everything about a lens either!

We tend to forget that cameras and lenses are tools to do a job (ie they are not an end in themselves) and if you ask me, we never had it so good! As I've said before, Nikon and Canon both produce superb cameras and lenses - both have their advantages and disadvantages, and I would class neither as better, just different. As I've also said before, if I were a student (I think that's where this thread started) I'd lean towards Canon as more commercial photographers are using them than Nikon, and to get an assistant's job this might be the better camera to be familiar with
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BJL

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« Reply #123 on: April 04, 2007, 10:45:13 am »

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BJL,
Have you ever tried simplifying your arguments?
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Given how you so massively misinterpret what I have been trying to say above, perhaps I should. I suggest in particular you re-read my post #111 in this thread, in which I say in part

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...  I can see the speed advantage of using a larger format and larger focal lengths to achieve good IQ at the combination of high ISO with low f-stops, but see no point if one ends using long, slow lenses, getting combinations like 400mm, f/5.6, ISO 3200.
...
In general, I see little or no high ISO IQ advantage in using a larger format (larger pixels and longer focal lengths) in situations that then involve using telephoto lenses slower than f/2.8, and even more so, slower than f/4, which leads to declining AF performance.
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It should be clear that I am talking about claiming a high ISO advantage for larger formats in situations where that high ISO speed is used in conjunction with a relatively slow lens (or a lens stopped down to a slow aperture for adequate DOF), meaning apertures of about f/4 or slower. This applies to all the zoom lenses that you have mentioned using (Sigma 15-30, Canon 24-105 and 100-400) except for the slightly faster f/3.5 at the wide end of the Sigma.

In that situation, the claimed high shutter speed/low light advantage is illusory, as a somewhat smaller format can achieve very similar results at the same shutter speed with a suitable combination of  shorter focal length, lower aperture ratio and lower ISO speed. For example changing from 35mm format, f/4 [or f/5.6] ISO 3200 to "APS-C" format f/2.8 [or  f/4], ISO 1600.

I have already said that the larger format has a speed advantage when it can use the combination of high ISO and low f-stop. So why do you use low aperture ratios like f/1.4 vs f/2 in your attempted counter-example?

Finally, note that I am not claiming in this thread any image quality advantage for a smaller format, nor denying that larger formats have some IQ advantages; my point is only to dispute _some_ claims of IQ advantages for larger formats, based on the persistent and often false assumption of using equal f-stop and ISO speed with a larger format and greater focal length.


I am avoiding comparisons of imaginary future products, so will simply say this: regardless of how sensor and photosite technology develops, the only way to get any advantage from using a larger format is to use a larger focal length, and that requires either (1) higher f-stops, and thus either higher ISO speed or lower shutter speed, or (2) larger, heavier and probably more expensive front lens elements and less DOF. Option (3) of using equal pixel size and equal focal length and cropping is of course simply a more bulky and expensive way of reproducing what could be done with a smaller format.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 11:08:15 am by BJL »
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BJL

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« Reply #124 on: April 04, 2007, 11:04:26 am »

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"Even expensive primes like the Canon 85/1.2 are not too hot at f1.2."

Does anyone remember the Olympus Pen series of solid but diminutive half frame SLRs? I wonder.....
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Firstly, please learn to use the quote button, so we know who you are quoting and from which post.

Secondly, I wonder what you are wondering about: why very cheap 35mm film cameras, film and processing eventually displaced smaller formats that had no significant cost advantage, while persistently very expensive 35mm format DSLR's are still confined to about 0.3% of the total digital camera market, under 3% of the DSLR market, and probably under a third of the professional digital camera market? (The 1.3x crop format 1D models dominate the latter.)

Two factors seem to explain it: different price and performance trade-offs with digital than with film. With digital
(1) the cost disadvantage of 35mm format vs the dominant smaller formats like DX, EF-S, 4/3 etc. is far greater than that between 35mm film and smaller film formats,
and
(2) the image quality is far better at any given format size, so the visible IQ differences between 35mm format digital and smaller DSLR formats is far less than between 35mm film full frame and 35mm film half-frame.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 11:08:56 am by BJL »
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MikeMike

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« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2007, 08:37:36 pm »

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I am a photography student and I am ready to buy a good digital SLR.  My  photography interest include:  landscape, action and portraiture.  My instructor has recommended the Cannon. My sister who is in the business says Nikon is industry standard. Price is not really an issue, but I want to be sure I don't regret my purchase. Any advice
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My god look what you've started.
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Ray

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« Reply #126 on: April 04, 2007, 08:43:07 pm »

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It should be clear that I am talking about claiming a high ISO advantage for larger formats in situations where that high ISO speed is used in conjunction with a relatively slow lens (or a lens stopped down to a slow aperture for adequate DOF), meaning apertures of about f/4 or slower. This applies to all the zoom lenses that you have mentioned using (Sigma 15-30, Canon 24-105 and 100-400) except for the slightly faster f/3.5 at the wide end of the Sigma.

In that situation, the claimed high shutter speed/low light advantage is illusory, as a somewhat smaller format can achieve very similar results at the same shutter speed with a suitable combination of  shorter focal length, lower aperture ratio and lower ISO speed. For example changing from 35mm format, f/4 [or f/5.6] ISO 3200 to "APS-C" format f/2.8 [or  f/4], ISO 1600.

I have already said that the larger format has a speed advantage when it can use the combination of high ISO and low f-stop. So why do you use low aperture ratios like f/1.4 vs f/2 in your attempted counter-example?

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BJL,
You're obfuscating here. One uses the lenses one has or can afford to buy. If you are buying into a new system, whatever the format, then the range and type of lenses available for that format should also be a consideration.

I understand where you are coming from. You own an E1 and you probably have a lens or two (probably zoom) that is faster than a Canon zoom of equivalent focal length. If so, that clearly helps towards removing any IQ disadvantage of the smaller format. I've always thought it a pity that Olympus has decided against making their Zuiko lenses compatible with Canon cameras. A bit of vignetting in the corners of a 400D image could be tolerated for the sake of a sharper image elswhere.  
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Ray

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« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2007, 08:48:32 pm »

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So what equivalent exists for a 24mm f/1.4 L lens on a 1.5x or 1.6x camera (from any manufacturer?
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Are you arguing with me or against me? You should ask BJL this question.  
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jjj

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« Reply #128 on: April 05, 2007, 12:16:44 am »

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Count me in as well, I have never seen a 5D shot topping my d2x at low ISO in terms of detail. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Who cares about extremely subtle differnces of image quality esp. compared to missing elements of a pictue due to the crop sensor.
I find this argument aboutminor pixel differnces a bit farcical to an extent becuse if you look at a lot of the great photographs of the past, most would be rejected by the image quality fascism that can occur on LL.

Unlike you I shoot at higher ISOs and recently, a Nikon using collegue struggled to get pics with his D2X, whereas I managed to get shots OK with my 5D. I had a more usable high speed ISO and a faster wideangle lens, so I had at least 2 stops advantage over him - we were shooting dancers and I was using 1/160thish at f2.8. He was considering buying a Canon after that.
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Ray

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« Reply #129 on: April 05, 2007, 12:36:01 am »

Good point, JJJ. We should consider the whole system. Available lenses, maximum aperture, effective DoF (in the standard 35mm terms) as well as ultimate image quality.

There are pros and cons for all formats.
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BJL

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« Reply #130 on: April 05, 2007, 05:03:54 pm »

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BJL,
You're obfuscating here.
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How so: I am simply stating a fact about using lenses of relatively high minimum f-stop with larger formats, compared to the option of using shorter but "brighter" lenses with smaller formats. I think the obfuscation comes form people who insist over and over again on comparing low light ability solely on the basis of comparisons at equal ISO, ignoring likely variations in f-stop choices.

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One uses the lenses one has or can afford to buy. If you are buying into a new system, whatever the format, then the range and type of lenses available for that format should also be a consideration.
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I completely agree, or as you say in another post,
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We should consider the whole system. Available lenses, maximum aperture, effective DoF ... as well as ultimate image quality.

There are pros and cons for all formats.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110731\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And if buying 35mm format limits one to doing most of one's photography with slowish lenses like a 15-30/3.5-4.5, 24-105/4, and 100-400/4-5.6, whereas with a somewhat smaller format one could afford lenses a stop or so brighter (especially with over a thousand dollars more to spend on lenses from savings on the camera body!), then the high ISO advantage of the larger sensor does not translate into any IQ advantage at equal shutter speed under equal lighting conditions when using those relatively slow lenses.

At the risk of sounding snobbish, I hope never again to buy a lens slower than f/4 at any focal length, for the sake of good AF performance and the ability to use a TC without losing AF entirely, as happens with a TC on the 100-400/4-5.6, doesn't it?

On the other hand, if I was more interested in in-door low light wide angle photography without flash, a tripod, or stabilization, I would be more interested in a larger format. But once even wide angle lenses are stabilized by in-body stabilization, I see little need for high ISO in that situation.
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BJL

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« Reply #131 on: April 05, 2007, 05:10:57 pm »

In response to a comment about 24mm f/1.4 lenses in 35mm formats having no equivalent in smaller formats
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Are you arguing with me or against me? You should ask BJL this question. 
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Ray, are you really still ignoring the fact that I completely agree with you that larger formats have an advantage when they can be used with fast, low f-stops lenses?

If I saw no advantages to larger formats over smaller ones, I would not be using a format more than four times larger in sensor area than 90% of digital cameras now sold.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #132 on: April 05, 2007, 07:44:58 pm »

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Who cares about extremely subtle differnces of image quality esp. compared to missing elements of a pictue due to the crop sensor.
I find this argument aboutminor pixel differnces a bit farcical to an extent becuse if you look at a lot of the great photographs of the past, most would be rejected by the image quality fascism that can occur on LL.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We both agree that the 5D has cleaner high ISO, that the 5D is overall a very good camera and that FF has some advantages over APS for some applications. With today's technology, my view is on the other hand clearly that APS sensors have advantages for landscape.

All I am saying is that, at low ISO that I use 99% of the time, the D2x has best in class image quality and is in many ways an even better camera than the 5D.

I am not sure how trying to use what I see as the best tool around for my type of shooting gets to be image quality fascism...  I understand that having different views on an issue can be felt as being disruptive, but "promoting diversity" and "facism" are concepts that are 180 degrees from each other.

For me, high ISO quality is only next to strap color in the irrelevant features list, and that it because I don't use a strap.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 08:39:24 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Ray

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« Reply #133 on: April 05, 2007, 08:17:27 pm »

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And if buying 35mm format limits one to doing most of one's photography with slowish lenses like a 15-30/3.5-4.5, 24-105/4, and 100-400/4-5.6, whereas with a somewhat smaller format one could afford lenses a stop or so brighter (especially with over a thousand dollars more to spend on lenses from savings on the camera body!), then the high ISO advantage of the larger sensor does not translate into any IQ advantage at equal shutter speed under equal lighting conditions when using those relatively slow lenses.
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Ah! Now I see your point. It's purely an economics one. Instead of splashing out on a 5D body, you're implying that I might have been better off buying a faster lens, such as a 70-200/2.8 IS with 2x extender, or a 300/2.8, or 24-70/2.8 or a 16-35/2.8.

As a matter of fact, when the full details of the 5D were released after much speculation as to what format it was, I was rather disappointed to learn that it was 12.8mp on a FF sensor. I was sort of hoping the camera would be a 12.8mp cropped format because I'd already bought the EF-S 10-22mm lens.

However, 12.8mp are better than 8.2mp when you have a wide format printer (as I have) and the EF-S 10-22mm, although roughly equivalent to the Sigma 15-30, is no faster and marginally less sharp.

As I've mentioned before, the availability of the right lenses can affect one's choice of camera. If the EF-S 10-22mm lens was a sharper and faster lens, say f2.8, and, if Canon had offered in addition to the 5D a 12.8mp cropped format body at a lower price than the 5D, I would have bought the cropped format. But they didn't so I couldn't.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #134 on: April 05, 2007, 09:08:16 pm »

While for me the biggest issue that pushed me into retiring my faithful 10D in favor of the FF 5D was that BIG, GLORIOUS, VISIBLE FINDER!!!    

The extra megapixels were really just a bonus. I was tired of looking down a long tunnel to see the image. And, fortunately, I hadn't yet invested in any of the S-series lenses. My existing lenses all work fine on my 5D.
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jjj

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« Reply #135 on: April 05, 2007, 09:09:15 pm »

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And if buying 35mm format limits one to doing most of one's photography with slowish lenses like a 15-30/3.5-4.5, 24-105/4, and 100-400/4-5.6, whereas with a somewhat smaller format one could afford lenses a stop or so brighter (especially with over a thousand dollars more to spend on lenses from savings on the camera body!), then the high ISO advantage of the larger sensor does not translate into any IQ advantage at equal shutter speed under equal lighting conditions when using those relatively slow lenses.

At the risk of sounding snobbish, I hope never again to buy a lens slower than f/4 at any focal length, for the sake of good AF performance and the ability to use a TC without losing AF entirely, as happens with a TC on the 100-400/4-5.6, doesn't it?
I have nothing slower than f2.8 and a big sensor, so not sure what your point is. Finding Fast apertures to go with smallers formats is quite hard, esp. at the w/a end.

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On the other hand, if I was more interested in in-door low light wide angle photography without flash, a tripod, or stabilization, I would be more interested in a larger format. But once even wide angle lenses are stabilized by in-body stabilization, I see little need for high ISO in that situation.
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IS has no effect on subject movement, so high ISO will still be essential.
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jjj

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« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2007, 09:10:33 pm »

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While for me the biggest issue that pushed me into retiring my faithful 10D in favor of the FF 5D was that BIG, GLORIOUS, VISIBLE FINDER!!!   
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Still pokey compared to my OM4, which is also half the size.
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2007, 09:13:16 pm »

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Why should the point not be valid? If there's a trade-off in image sharpness then that's a disadvantage. Are you saying you don't care about image resolution and sharpness?

My remarks were made in the context of comparing a low noise (at high ISO) FF 5D with a slightly higher-noise, cropped format D2x. With the D2X you can use a faster aperture and lower ISO to get, according to BJL, the same image quality and same DoF.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you stick to the brighter tones, they might be more similar, but once you get deep into the shadows, the D2X is an order of magnitude noisier than the 5D.  The D2X does not have any high-ISO readout optimization.  The read noise is the same level in electrons at all ISOs on the D2X.  It starts out about twice as strong as the the 5D at ISO 100, and is about 12x as strong at ISO 1600.  Nikon seems to be short on ideas about how to tame read noise.

I've read comments on how  Nikon has caught ip to Canon in the low-light area, comparing the D80 to the XTi, yet examining their RAW files, the D80 has 4x-5x times the read noise as the XTI at ISO 1600.  Most of the samples in the comparisons are well-exposed, and overlook the fact that the D80 tends to expose very high, and the XTi very low, so you need to use -EC on the D80 and +EC on the XTi to properly compare them in the same lighting.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 09:14:11 pm by John Sheehy »
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jjj

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« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2007, 09:24:02 pm »

Deleted due to double post.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 09:27:18 pm by jjj »
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Ray

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« Reply #139 on: April 05, 2007, 09:25:18 pm »

Quote
If you stick to the brighter tones, they might be more similar, but once you get deep into the shadows, the D2X is an order of magnitude noisier than the 5D.  The D2X does not have any high-ISO readout optimization.  The read noise is the same level in electrons at all ISOs on the D2X.  It starts out about twice as strong as the the 5D at ISO 100, and is about 12x as strong at ISO 1600.  Nikon seems to be short on ideas about how to tame read noise.

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Didn't realise there was such a big difference in noise levels between the two cameras, John.

It's no wonder Bernard has taken so few high ISO shots with his D2X   .
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