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Author Topic: Nikon vs. Cannon  (Read 257779 times)

Rob C

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« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2007, 12:31:14 pm »

On the matter of a FF Nikon, I tend to think it will happen. I base this on the feeling that Nikon is very proud of its optics and would not like to put out a camera system where they, the optics, are found to be wanting.

However, there is an undeniable loss of market share because of this (probable) high-minded attitude and it will have to be addressed. How to do that without blowing the reputation of the optics? I think the answer will be in a firm, clear  declaration from Nikon that getting results on digital as good as on film, at the extreme wide-angle end of the spectrum, is simply not possible. This will be explained as an unavoidable result of the physical shape of any sensor know to date.

As none of the other, competing manufacturers have been able to produce outstanding wide-angle results on FF either, there will be no shame in declaring that a FF body is being introduced in order to allow Nikon photographers to make use of the FF advantages within the focal lengths where it functions well.

No loss of face and huge sighs of relief.

Just an idea, but I think it is the future; are we all that enslaved to the super-wide? And if so, why?

Ciao - Rob C
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 12:31:56 pm by Rob C »
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Ray

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« Reply #101 on: March 24, 2007, 12:07:25 am »

Quote
Just an idea, but I think it is the future; are we all that enslaved to the super-wide? And if so, why?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108273\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good question! Perhaps it's because the super-wide gives us a perspective in one glance that we cannot achieve by looking at the real scene, without turning our head from side to side.

There are certain things the eye can do that the camera (in a single shot) cannot.

When the eye gaze moves from a bright part of a scene to a dark part of the same scene, there's an almost instantaneous enlargement of the pupil to take in the detail in the dark part of the scene. The camera has a fixed aperture. To mimic this effect of the eye, we have to take multiple shots at different exposures and digitally blend the images.

When viewing a really wide-angle scene, the eye cannot take in the full width of the panorama, in full detail, without some head turning. We get an experience of the vast width, without turning our head, but detail is lost (significantly) in our peripheral vision.

Dynamic range limitations of DSLRs fall short of what the eye can see clearly. Wide-angle lenses do not.

When trekking recently in Nepal, I started out with the Canon 24-105mm lens attached to my 5D. This seemed to be the most versatile combination.

However, the landscape scenes in Nepal are sometimes so vast and wide that 24mm on FF 35mm is not wide enough.

Fortunately, I was carrying the Sigma 15-30mm zoom, so when the occasion arose, I would change lenses. However, having changed lenses for a particular scene, it did not make sense to change back to the 24-105mm untill the occasion required it.

Here's a problem. When trekking in Nepal, one can never predict what's round the bend.

I'll use a few shots here to illustrate my point.

The first is a scene of a suspension bridge. I changed from my 24-105 to the Sigma 15-30 to take this shot. I'm quite pleased with it. I used f16 to get maximum DoF without serious loss of resolution. I guessed the hyperfocal distance and my guess appears to be fairly accurate. I took only one shot, I was that confident.

[attachment=2160:attachment]

Let's examine this shot. It's a Sigma lens on a FF camera. How are the corners?

Not too bad! There's some resolution loss in the extreme corners, but really not a major issue. Below is a 100% crop of the bottom left corner.

[attachment=2161:attachment]

What about the distant horizon, I hear you claim?

It's also quite good. And to think, I did all this without reference to DoF charts.  

Here's a 100% crop of the distant horizon. If you think this crop is better than the whole scene, I will understand.  

[attachment=2162:attachment]

However, having an ultra-wide lens on a FF camera can be a disadvantage. What happens if 5 minutes later a photographic opportunity occurs which requires a longer focal length?

Basically, you're stuffed. This was a major problem in Nepal, so I fixed the problem by carrying 2 cameras around my neck, the 20D with 24-105 lens and the 5D with 15-30 lens.

As a matter of interest, shortly after I took the shot of the bridge, I came across the following scene, still having the 15-30mm attached to my 5D.

I remember the  internal decisions I went through. If I change lenses, I might miss the shot. This guy is running at a fairly fast pace.

I decided to stick with my inappropriate lens and wait till the horseman reached the right distance. The trade-off is, I only got one shot. And here it is, at 30mm, the maximum focal length of my lens.

[attachment=2163:attachment]

For those of you who are very concerned about composition, you might have noticed in the horeseman shot there's a boring, blank area of sky in the top left corner.

Not so! There are interesting power lines there.  

[attachment=2164:attachment]

Oops! I forgot to mention. The first shot of the brdge was at f16 and 15mm. The second shot of the horseman was at f30 and f8.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 12:14:45 am by Ray »
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Ray

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« Reply #102 on: March 26, 2007, 02:43:59 am »

Perhaps there's another consideration here. Now that photoshop CS3 has provided a superb 'auto stitch' feature which certainly seems to handle 2, 3 or 4 images with great aplomb, perhaps Nikon users can simply stitch images to get the really wide-angle effect.

On the other hand, if one adopts the same procedure with a FF camera, one gets an even wider effect.

Ultimately, it's pixel size and pixel quality that counts, and there full frame has the advantage.

I'm afraid BJL is in a state of denial.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #103 on: March 26, 2007, 08:54:32 am »

Quote
Ultimately, it's pixel size and pixel quality that counts, and there full frame has the advantage.

I'm afraid BJL is in a state of denial.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108695\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Count me in as well, I have never seen a 5D shot topping my d2x at low ISO in terms of detail.

Cheers,
Bernard

Mark D Segal

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« Reply #104 on: March 26, 2007, 09:10:46 am »

There is such a huge number of factors that influence perceived image quality - many whose impact would vary according to the kind of image and its final output format, that it would take quite an ingenious amount of well-directed testing to determine exactly the right circumstances in which "FF"  necessarily delivers superior perceived image quality relative to the D2X format - and I say that objectively as a Canon 1Ds user. The THEORY of the full frame - larger pixels, less noise etc. makes sense on the surface of it, but there is clearly much more under the hood than that. One thing though that is PROBABLY beyond dispute - the larger the sensor the more pixels of a given size can be crammed into it, so FF has the on-going potential of delivering more information than smaller sensors, but from that point onward one gets into the murky waters of quality in respect of what usage and viewing conditions.
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Ray

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« Reply #105 on: March 26, 2007, 09:23:39 am »

Quote
Count me in as well, I have never seen a 5D shot topping my d2x at low ISO in terms of detail.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ah! But what about at high ISO, eh!?
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #106 on: March 26, 2007, 10:28:44 am »

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Ah! But what about at high ISO, eh!?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They are all yours.  Less than 3.141592654% of my images are shot above ISO100.

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2007, 11:11:01 am »

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Ultimately, it's pixel size and pixel quality that counts, and there full frame has the advantage.

I'm afraid BJL is in a state of denial.
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Ray, what facts have I denied according to you?

I have never denied that, all things being equal, larger photosites have advantages such as greater dynamic range, so that larger sensors can offer some combination of higher DR and greater total image detail ("lines per picture height") --- in exchange for increased sensor costs and such.

Nor have I denied that at equal ISO, large pixels will likely give higher S/N ratios when used with equal exposure time and aperture ratio --- in exchange for needing a lens of greater focal length and larger aperture size, meaning a lens of greater size and weight that gives (possibly disadvantageous) lower DOF.

If I denied all that, I would probably be using a format like 1/1.8" or smaller instead of far larger, bulkier, 4/3" format gear.

These are essentially same differences as seen between different film formats, but digital technology makes the differences easier to quantify and measure.

Some people (naming no names) seem to be in state of denial about the possible disadvantages and costs associated with achieving those larger format advantages, such as greater size, weight and price, and seem to ignore the balancing of pros and cons that go into format choices, both by camera users and camera makers. (For example, Canon, Nikon and Olympus have never pursued the ultimate in IQ by making cameras in formats larger than 24x36mm).
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 11:15:08 am by BJL »
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Ray

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« Reply #108 on: March 26, 2007, 12:14:50 pm »

Quote
I have never denied that, all things being equal, larger photosites have advantages such as greater dynamic range, so that larger sensors can offer some combination of higher DR and greater total image detail ("lines per picture height") --- in exchange for increased sensor costs and such.

Nor have I denied that at equal ISO, large pixels will likely give higher S/N ratios when used with equal exposure time and aperture ratio --- in exchange for needing a lens of greater focal length and larger aperture size, meaning a lens of greater size and weight that gives (possibly disadvantageous) lower DOF.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108767\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good! Perhaps I misunderstood you.  
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Ray

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« Reply #109 on: March 26, 2007, 12:20:58 pm »

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They are all yours.  Less than 3.141592654% of my images are shot above ISO100.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108759\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you had a 5D (and especially a 1D3), you might increase that percentage.  

I also have very few Canon D60 images taken at ISO 800. I was even reluctant to use ISO 400 with that camera.
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BJL

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« Reply #110 on: April 02, 2007, 11:04:27 am »

Ray, I would like to know what focal lengths and apertures you are commonly using at high ISO speeds with the 5D.

I ask because I can see the speed advantage of using a larger format and larger focal lengths to achieve good IQ at the combination of high ISO with low f-stops, but see no point if one ends using long, slow lenses, getting combinations like 400mm, f/5.6, ISO 3200. Because smaller formats and pixels can offer about equally good options like about 300mm, f/4, ISO 1600 or 200mm, f/2.8, ISO 800.

Likewise for any combination of ISO 200 or faster with f/4 or slower, compared to the alternative of half the ISO speed and twice the lens speed (f-stop), using with a format and pixels about 1.4x smaller and a lens that is about 1.4x shorter and one stop faster.

In general, I see little or no high ISO IQ advantage in using a larger format (larger pixels and longer focal lengths) in situations that then involve using telephoto lenses slower than f/2.8, and even more so, slower than f/4, which leads to declining AF performance.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 11:11:07 am by BJL »
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Ray

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« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2007, 08:29:08 pm »

Quote
Ray, I would like to know what focal lengths and apertures you are commonly using at high ISO speeds with the 5D.

BJL,
I haven't done an analysis, but my most used lenses with the 5D would be the Sigma 15-30 and Canon 24-105. Many of the shots I took in Italy where I was using the 20D required a high ISO because of the restrictions on use of tripod and flash in museums and churches.

It's always an advantage to have a faster lens if you can afford it, but generally lenses for FF 35mm are just as fast as lenses for smaller formats such as the Olympus 4/3rds, are they not?

If we're talking about different size sensors with roughly equal pixel count, such as the D2X and 5D, then it's true you can use a shorter focal length, a wider aperture and a lower ISO to get a similar picture quality provided you have a lens with a wider aperture.
 
I doubt that I've taken any shots at 400mm, f5.6 and ISO 3200. On the 5D, picture quality at ISO 3200 is apparently no different to ISO 1600 underexposed one stop, and my 100-400 IS zoom is noticeably soft at f5.6. F8, f11 are what I use most with this lens.

Of course I'm aware of the telephoto advantages of the cropped format and I still use my 100-400 zoom with the 20D because of the 20D's higher pixel density. However, the day I get a FF Canon 22mp camera will be the day my 20D becomes fully redundant.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 08:30:01 pm by Ray »
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BJL

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« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2007, 11:50:29 am »

Quote
... my most used lenses with the 5D would be the Sigma 15-30 and Canon 24-105. Many of the shots I took in Italy where I was using the 20D required a high ISO because of the restrictions on use of tripod and flash in museums and churches.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The wide end is certainly where I would expect larger sensors (and the related ability to use lenses of larger entrance pupils that gather light faster) to be beneficial. Then again, I have found ISO 800 adequate for hand-held church and museum photos even without IS, so I would think that with systems that offer stabilization of wide angle lenses through in-body IS, even ISO 400 or less should be plenty. Which is to say, every DSLR system except the two that headline this thread!.


Quote
... generally lenses for FF 35mm are just as fast as lenses for smaller formats such as the Olympus 4/3rds, are they not?
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No, they are not for equal FOV. As you should well know, once one allows for the longer focal lengths needed for equal telephoto reach (equal angular resolution) when using "FF" sensors with their larger pixels, the available minimum f-stops are in general higher. (And in the cases where equally low minimum f-stop is available in a suitably longer telephoto, the lens is far heavier and more expensive.)

You cannot claim the better performance at equally high ISO of larger pixels and sensors while ignoring the longer focal length needs that go with it.

Specifically, Canon's current 35mm format lens system does not offer equally low minimum f-stops at the focal lengths needed to get the same FOV, or the same angular resolution after possible cropping (i.e. cropping to roughly equal pixel counts). Not only does equal uncropped FOV require focal lengths at least 50% longer than with mainstream DSLR formats and 30% longer than with Canon's own 1.3x crop models, but with cropping to equal pixel counts, the 8.2 micron pixels of the 5D require using focal lengths
- 36% greater than with a D40x, D80 or D200 ( or A-100 or K10D),
- 49% greater than with a D2X.
- 75% greater than with 10MP 4/3 format cameras
Even if you could afford the huge price step up to the 1DsMkII, the focal length increases needed are 20%, 30% and 50%.

Bearing this in mind, I see no equal f-stop Canon "FF" lens alternatives to using those smaller format DSLR bodies with lenses like
- Nikon 85/1.4, 135/2, 200/2, 300/2.8, 400/2.8, 500/4, 600/4, or zooms matching a 200-400/4, 70-200/2.8 or 80-400/4-5.6 near the long end. Or even a zoom matching the long end of a cheap 70-300/4.5-5.6 telephoto!
- Olympus 150/2, 300/2.8 or zooms lenses matching the minimum f-stops of the longer part of the zoom range of the 50-200/2.8-3.5, 35-100/2, 90-250/2.8. Or even the forthcoming low end 70-300/4-5.6.
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Ray

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« Reply #113 on: April 03, 2007, 01:00:07 pm »

BJL,
You seem to have forgotten we're talking about trends and the future. There seems to be a significant lag between the pixel density of the cropped formats and the same pixel density implemented in the FF formats. The 1Ds2 has the same pixel density as the D60, my first DSLR. Even if the D60 had the same sterling noise performance of the 1Ds2, which it doesn't, there would be no circumstances whatsoever in which the D60 could offer any image IQ advantage whatsoever, with any lens, over the 1Ds2.
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djgarcia

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« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2007, 01:50:50 pm »

Go outside, take picture, print picture, show picture, enjoy picture, screw the brand ...  

Repeat as desired ...
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BJL

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« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2007, 04:57:26 pm »

Quote
BJL,
You seem to have forgotten we're talking about trends and the future.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110426\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, we were not: you were talking about the good ISO 3200 performance of your actual 35mmFF camera, with your actual lenses, and I responded by asking and talking about the actual demonstrated advantages and disadvantages of actual cameras and sensors in different formats. In particular, I am not interested in comparisons between imagined future Canon products (28MP! clean ISO 6400!!) to the performance limitations of products from several years ago in other brands (the Nikon D2Xs with its sensor from 2004).

Quote
There seems to be a significant lag between the pixel density of the cropped formats and the same pixel density implemented in the FF formats.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110426\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Indeed there is:
1. the pixel spacing of 35mm format sensors is persistently larger than in smaller format sensors at the same time, or even from several years earlier, and
2. the pixel size gap in percentage terms is increasing with time, or in other words, the pixel count gap is decreasing in percentage terms.

The 1Ds and 14/n had about twice the pixel count of the smaller formats, which were then at 6MP. In fact the 14/n has the same pixel size as the D100. Now the pixel count gap from 10MP mainstream models is only about 25% (5D) to 65% (1DsMkII), and relative to the maximum pixel   count in APS-C, the D2Xs, the gap is only about 5% to 30%.

So the gap in focal lengths needed is growing, getting fairly close to the factor expected based on sensor size alone. Comparisons between lenses of equal focal length become less and less relevant, if they ever were relevant (I doubt that it is at all common for people to use larger format DSLRs with higher pixels counts and then crop down to the pixel count possible with a far less expensive smaller format camera). Using the 5D with the same focal length as gets the job done in DX or 4/3 and cropping to get the same FOV gives only about 5.5MP (DX format) or 3.4MP (4/3 format).

I can see why the arguments in favor of 35mm format digital are consolidating on wide angle to normal performance and high dynamic range at low ISO, more like the traditional advantages of larger film formats, which were never much touted for telephoto and high shutter speed situations.


P. S. In deference to djgarcia, my points are addressed to comparisons of formats; brands only appear when specific examples must be mentioned.
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Ray

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« Reply #116 on: April 03, 2007, 09:17:13 pm »

BJL,
Have you ever tried simplifying your arguments?  

What I understand from your above post is that you are merely re-stating the traditional advantage of the smaller format, ie. the opportunity to get the same DoF plus faster shutter speed by using a wider aperture with a shorter focal length.

Comparing the D2X with the 5D with a specific example; if I'm in a low light situation and need to use the widest aperture of my lens, say f1.4, then the D2X will give me approximately the same DoF and the same general image quality at ISO 800 as the 5D at f2 and ISO 1600, using a lens 1.5x the focal length on the 5D.

However, the advantage here is not always clear-cut. It's dependent upon the possession of lenses of equivalent focal length (for the smaller format) that actually are faster, and it's also dependent on the requirement (in relation to the subject) of as much DoF as possible.

For example, if I'm photographing (without flash) a section of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel where DoF may not be an issue, I can also use f1.4 at ISO 800 with the 5D, or use a faster shutter speed that's maybe needed because it would be a hand-held shot, in oder to get better image quality than the D2X can provide; either better in respect of less noise or sharper because I was able to use a faster shutter speed.

(This argument is based on remembered evidence that the 5D at ISO 1600 produces images that are at least as sharp and clean as the D2X at ISO 800).

There are also a couple of other points that are worth mentioning in circumstances where the same zoom lens is used with both FF and APS-C cameras. Lenses are generally not sharpest at full aperture. Even expensive primes like the Canon 85/1.2 are not too hot at f1.2. At apertures faster than f5.6, sharpest results are usually achieved by stopping down. Furthermore, when the shallowest DoF possible is required, FF is generally better (using the same zoom lens or equivalent prime which is equally fast.)

Finally, it's pretty obvious that pixel counts continue to increase on both formats. As they do, the telephoto advantage of the smaller format diminishes as the greater pixel density of the smaller format struggles to extract more detail from existing lenses. Of course, new lenses are being developed, but the quality is not increasing at the same rate as the increases in pixel count.
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Paul Kay

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« Reply #117 on: April 04, 2007, 04:32:24 am »

"Even expensive primes like the Canon 85/1.2 are not too hot at f1.2."

No but it is f/1.2! If a lens is slower its image quality may be better (?) but its still slower. Without wanting to appear rude (I really don't) I've seen this argument too often and its not valid. If you buy an ultra fast lens to use wide open then at least you CAN use it wide open because it has the fast maximum aperture - I have L primes from 24 to 135 and ALL are used wide open when I want/need to.

Secondly, its worth also pointing out that smaller than FF cameras may also be at a lens design disadvantage when it comes to fast wides simply because they still carry forward the design of 35mm film lens mounting dimensions - which are probably not the ideal requirements for lens designers and fast wides (I exclude the Leica M8 which should have a clear advantage here - but of course isn't an SLR).

Does anyone remember the Olympus Pen series of solid but diminutive half frame SLRs? I wonder.....
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #118 on: April 04, 2007, 07:02:16 am »

Quote
As they do, the telephoto advantage of the smaller format diminishes as the greater pixel density of the smaller format struggles to extract more detail from existing lenses. Of course, new lenses are being developed, but the quality is not increasing at the same rate as the increases in pixel count.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No intend to get involved in a Canon vs Nikon debate, but I just cannot agree with this last point. This just isn't proven.
 
How do you explain that Michael concluded after comparing the Leica M8 with a Canon G7 that both cameras deliver sharp results at low ISO? The sensor of the G7 has a surface that is about 10 times smaller, and there a pixel density 3 times higher.

This shows very clearly that there are lenses able to resolve at least 3 times more than current 35 mm lenses.

Regards,
Bernard

Mark D Segal

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« Reply #119 on: April 04, 2007, 07:37:45 am »

Quote
This shows very clearly that there are lenses able to resolve at least 3 times more than current 35 mm lenses.

Regards,
Bernard
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.........and that very crowded sensors with small pixels can still deliver very high quality images?

But even so, there must be a point at which bigger is better; and at that point will the lenses or the sensor be the critical constraint on resolution?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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