Nikon vs. Cannon

[dabreeze]

i always think it interesting when someone starts a thread like this, more than a week ago, dozens of really informative posts follow, and the original poster neither weighs in with a more refined definition of his needs or a mere thank you to all the folks that tried to help him. kudos to all for adding their $.02; personally i often wonder "why bother?"

[Mark D Segal]

It looks to me as if we were baited - someone with poor spelling skills up to mischief trying to get a nasty debate started - we won!  

[BernardLanguillier]

You have a point of course, David. It's not perhaps so clear-cut as deciding on a format first (money not being a major concern).

At present, the D2X has an image quality and enlargability approximately on a par with the 5D, though both are different format cameras. However, I foresee that Nikon will not be able to maintain this image parity with the larger format Canons in the future as pixel density increases. A full frame 35mm sensor with the pixel density of the 400D would be 26mp.

A student who opts for a Nikon without regard to format might, a few years down the track, regret not being able to switch without great expense to that 26mp 1Ds4 which he thinks he needs for his new large format printer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The good thing though is that the really expensive lenses can often be used both with APS and FF sensors.

I don't believe that Nikon has plans to let Canon get a significant lead in resolution. If APS really cannot manage resolutions in the 16-22 MP range, then they will go for FF.

Regards,
Bernard

[dabreeze]

yea, first clue: a student for whom "price is not really an issue;" not any student i ever knew!!

second clue: a sister "in the business" who says nikon is the industry standard. well respected, fine equipment manufacturer (god, if the new 16-35 can match the optical quality of the nikon 17-35 we'll all be in canon FF heaven!), industry leader, heavy market share hitter, . . . but industry standard?

i think we'e been had!!

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

i think we'e been had!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, but it did make for an interesting and quite civilized discussion. Probably more civilized than the OP was hoping for.

[BernardLanguillier]

Yes, but it did make for an interesting and quite civilized discussion. Probably more civilized than the OP was hoping for.
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Well Eric, we should become sponsors of some sort of cross brand temporary exchange programe, shouldn't we? I let you use my rusty d2x for one week while you send me your 5D?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Well Eric, we should become sponsors of some sort of cross brand temporary exchange programe, shouldn't we? I let you use my rusty d2x for one week while you send me your 5D?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you throw in one or two of your nifty mountain prints, I'll be sorely tempted.  

Best,

Eric

[Paul Kay]

"If APS really cannot manage resolutions in the 16-22 MP range, then they will go for FF."

This is probably THE question. Interestingly, I have a lens designer friend whom I asked about this a couple of years ago. His comments, based purely on his experience and very rough maths at the time, were to suggest that building lenses capable of working with 15~16MPixel + APS sensors MIGHT not be an economically viable option! This was apparently based on the QC issues which would potentially arise from the extremely tight tolerances he foresaw being needed.

I just put this in here as it was something that I found very interesting and it certainly swayed my decision making. We live in fascinating times though and I suspect that both Canon and Nikon have their futures mapped out very carefully for the next few generations of digital cameras - Oh to be a fly on their walls!

[Akiss]

if money is not an issue go for the 1Ds Mark II.

[Mark D Segal]

if money is not an issue go for the 1Ds Mark II.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nah - you're under-achieving. If money is not an issue why not go for a P45 set-up? That would take the Valkyries for a ride, wouldn't it?  

[Paul Sumi]

I let you use my rusty d2x for one week while you send me your 5D?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard,

I think you left out a letter in the adjective preceding the word "d2x."    

Best,

Paul

[dlashier]

Re trolling, the clue is the username. IME if someone puts a number after their UN it's usually a DOB, which makes valkyrie 42 years old.

- DL

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Re trolling, the clue is the username. IME if someone puts a number after their UN it's usually a DOB, which makes valkyrie 42 years old.

- DL
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106375\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, Don. I think you've discovered the Fountain of Youth! I think I'll change my username to EricM1978 (sounds so much better than EricM1939.)    

- Eric19--

[Denni]

Whether troll or not, I've loved reading everybody's opinions.  I teach college photography and I love that this fight exists even amongst those with no real photographic experience.  My Dad shot with Nikon.  I shoot with Canon.  I tell my students to buy a camera that they can afford, that feels good and that they can grow with.  I almost always suggest Canon or Nikon.  IF Canon releases an entirely new line this year I'll probably be saying "Nikon?  What's a Nikon?".  I like the d200, but the 5d is great.  I hate the XTi, but the D80 is good for beginners.  But please, don't try and compare the 2Dxs with the Ids Mark II, or now with the Id Mark III. And besides, any photographer who enjoys low light has got to go CMOS  

[Ray]

The good thing though is that the really expensive lenses can often be used both with APS and FF sensors.

I don't believe that Nikon has plans to let Canon get a significant lead in resolution. If APS really cannot manage resolutions in the 16-22 MP range, then they will go for FF.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That requires a certain leap of faith, Bernard. One might presume that Nikon will rise to the challenge and at some point begin producing full frame sensors rather than play second fiddle to Canon. However, Canon is one of the few camera manufacturers that actually make their own sensors. They have a great wealth of experience in FF sensor production, which is growing year by year, and I think it is unlikely they'll be selling their FF sensors to Nikon.

I'm reminded here of the Kodak 14n difficulties. There's no doubt it would be possible for Nikon to eventually produce a camera with a FF sensor, but would it be possible for them to produce one that is as good as the future range of Canon FF cameras?

[Mark D Segal]

............ but would it be possible for them to produce one that is as good as the future range of Canon FF cameras?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good question........but what are the latest rumours about Canon FUTURE FF cameras? Any fresh gossip from out there in Japan, Bernard?

Cheers,

Mark

[BJL]

Canon is one of the few camera manufacturers that actually make their own sensors. They have a great wealth of experience in FF sensor production
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course Nikon would not have to make its own larger sensors; it could get them from its collaboration with Sony: shared design efforts, fabrication by Sony, probably on steppers made by Nikon, which is a major stepper maker.  I see no reason why Sony would not be capable of scaling up from its successful 15.7x23.5mm format sensors (both CCD and CMOS) to 24x36mm if there were signs of adequate demand at adequately profitable price.

What would be the barriers to up-sizing? The only one I see is the added difficulty and cost due to the need for multiple exposures in the stepper, due to the 26x33mm chip size limit stated by Canon again in its 1DMkIII white paper. And numerous companies are capable of fabricating such sensors (Panasonic; Kodak; Dalsa; Tower Semiconductor in Israel and the English fab. who between them made the sensors for the Kodak 14/N, SLR/N and SLR/C; etc.) so I see little reason to think that a huge chip maker like Sony would have any fundamental problems.

Then again, my fantasy is Nikon/Sony launching high end models using a sensor format of about 24x31mm to 24x33mm: whatever is the largest that can be fabricated without that special multiple step process and is compatible with 24x36mm equipment like lenses. The width limit comes from Canon's mention of a 26x33mm size limit in fabrication; the 24mm height is the maximum for full backward compatibility with 35mmm lenses and such. The lower width (31mm) allows for the possibility that the sensor might ned to have a mm or so of "non-image recording" area near the edges of the 26x33mm maximum total chip size.

Being a few mm narrower than 24x36mm could bring a major cost advantage; a cost advantage that Canon seems to be pursuing with its persistence in using a 1.3x crop format for its top selling pro models.

[Ray]

Of course Nikon would not have to make its own larger sensors; it could get them from its collaboration with Sony: shared design efforts, fabrication by Sony, probably on steppers made by Nikon, which is a major stepper maker.  I see no reason why Sony would not be capable of scaling up from its successful 15.7x23.5mm format sensors (both CCD and CMOS) to 24x36mm if there were signs of adequate demand at adequately profitable price.

BJL,
I agree in principle here, but I suspect there might be a large number of trade secrets and patents involved in the refinement of such a sensor which gives Canon an advantage. Clearly I'm not familiar with the detail of the production processes and integration of the sensor into the camera to produce the exceptionally low noise/high ISO performance that is now a trade-mark of Canon DSLRs, but I'd be willing to stick out my neck and say it's not just as straightforward as having the machinery to stamp out the sensors.  

The issue of adequate demand and adequate profitability might be another stumbling block. What would motivate Nikon to start looking at FF sensors for their cameras is a loss of market share to Canon due to, for example, a 22mp successor to the 5D being available at a reasonable cost of, say $2,000.... at least this sort of thing. In order to wrest back that loss of market share, Nikon would have to come up with a FF sensor design at least as good as what Canon is offering.

This simply might not be possible. The Kodak 14n line was not a success even though it was cheaper than the Canon 1Ds and marginally higher resolution.

Then again, my fantasy is Nikon/Sony launching high end models using a sensor format of about 24x31mm to 24x33mm: whatever is the largest that can be fabricated without that special multiple step process and is compatible with 24x36mm equipment like lenses. The width limit comes from Canon's mention of a 26x33mm size limit in fabrication; the 24mm height is the maximum for full backward compatibility with 35mmm lenses and such. The lower width (31mm) allows for the possibility that the sensor might ned to have a mm or so of "non-image recording" area near the edges of the 26x33mm maximum total chip size.

If there would be significant cost savings in producing a 24x31mm sensor compared with a 24x36mm sensor, I don't understand why it is not being done. The area of such a sensor is only marginally less than that of a FF 24x36mm sensor. There would not only be full compatibility with all 35mm lenses but the corners of the frame would be subject to slightly less vignetting.

Perhaps the reason is the very odd aspect ratio which would result, 1:1.29, which is slightly squarer than the 4/3rds aspect ratio. Perhaps this is seen as a marketing disadvantage. Perhaps there are too many people who consider DSLRs to be status symbols, who would be uncomfortable with the thought that the reason for the very odd aspect ratio of their status symbol is merely to reduce production costs. Just guessing   .

[John Camp]

Nikon does make a sensor, the LBCAST, which has some advantages over CCD and CMOS. They've used it in the D/H series, but only up to ~4mp. Wikipedia reports rumors of an 8mp LBCAST in the next generation D3H, which would compete with 1DMIII as a news and sports shooter.

When Nikon first announced the LBCAST, it was assumed that it would be a main-line sensor; I don't know if that's out of the question now, or not, or if there are problems fabricating a FF version of it; but since it was around four or five years ago, and Nikon is still using it, I would assume that some development has continued.

Kodak and Nikon have cooperated in the past. Kodak has a very good CCD chip in the new M8, 10 mp at 1.3x. If they went FF with that and got ~18-19mp, it would compete quite nicely with the next generation 1DsIII, which is expected in around 22mp. The fly in that particular ointment is that Kodak could be preparing that FF chip for a new Leica R.

I think that Canon's new camera top-line model will have everything including the kitchen sink attached to it; their weak spot might be the lens line-up, especially at the wide end. There are rumors of a new series of lenses, made especially to handle the higher resolution of a ~22mp sensor, but there have been rumors of that since rumors were invented.

The next Nikon/Canon bodies may be the end of the serious mp competition, and the beginning of serious competition in other areas -- DR, low-light, selectable/multiple frame sizes for different kinds of shooting, perhaps (if they don't have it -- I don't keep up) a blue tooth/cell phone connnection for direct transmission of news photos to an editing receiver. All for the greater glory of converting a photographer into a camera pointer.

JC

[Mark D Segal]

Interesting post John, but I hardly think some-one paying around 8K for a 1DsMkiii would have the profile of a "camera pointer"  -  that kind of dough usually signifies a more serious-minded photographer!

A distant dream of mine - a Leica Summicron lens attached to a DSLR 20+ MP FF camera - that would blow the world away!