Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process

[Ethan Schoonover]

Ethan:

Congrats on getting your thread back. Wow, it was hijacked half way around the world.

BTW, good luck on your search. Sounds like you are making progress.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Andrew... I'm thrilled that it's evolved out of my hands. Plus, maybe now we get to see a showdown at high noon between the MFDBs

On second thought, the light at high noon would suck. Let's do it at dusk.

Showdown at dusk!

[Ethan Schoonover]

Peter,

Thanks for your proposal.

sounds good and perfect, however, we have here already the first little problem:

You would then only test for a specific field and get a back winner for this specific task.

Much diffferent can be the test conditions and therefore the results if one shots sceneries; landscapes; architecure, or then stil life in Studio, or then Macros like jewelery, car photography, etc ...., when it needs shifts, tilts/swings....
Centerfold effects, color casts with shifts, high-light recovery in harsh light conditions, etc ... would not be covered and tested.

I don't want to be negative about such a test, but one has to take in account all issues in digital photography.

I would like the idea of a test involving all parameters and conditions, in all particular photographic fields, and then compare the different parts of this test.

Sounds difficult, but why not!

Let's see and think about it.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99826\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd love to see this turn into a website or subsite (Michael?) that would allow this kind of head-to-head to be real asset and resource for the community.

And here's the kicker: we'll possibly find out that the different backs are nicely suited to different applications, and that different post workflows are suited to different photogs styles

Everyone wins!

[SeanBK]

Thierry, excellent point @ other aspect of photography.
    On a sidebar; I recently viewed the results from H3D with their 28mm albeit only JPG & not a 100% crop!!  H3D seems to have totally eliminated the distortion!! This does eliminate the need to tilt-shift for Architectural & Interior photographer. And it can also use other lens in H line-up, may be Hasselblad knew what they were doing with H3D!!!

[free1000]

Thierry, excellent point @ other aspect of photography.
    On a sidebar; I recently viewed the results from H3D with their 28mm albeit only JPG & not a 100% crop!!  H3D seems to have totally eliminated the distortion!! This does eliminate the need to tilt-shift for Architectural & Interior photographer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

SeanBK, I think you are off target here. Lens distortion has nothing to do with why architectural/interiors photographers need movements (shifts of types, rise, fall and cross-shifts tend to be what I use, not very often tilt which is of more use in landscape or lifestyle photography).

What shifts do for me, is allow the control of perspective. This is different from needing to correct inherent distortion (barrel, pincushion or irregular) in a particular lens.

The best example of this is a great interiors trick using cross-shifts on a view camera. With this technique it is possible to  apparently  photograph a mirror head on without the camera or photographer appearing reflected in it. This is achieved by placing the camera to the left or right of the mirror, then shifting the back left or right in a horizontal plane so that the mirror appears in the desired place in the image.  

Unless Hassleblad have incorporated a warp drive into their camera, I doubt if their integration is able to bend light so as to achieve the same effect as camera movements.

[mkravit]

Well Rainer I will have to disagree here.

Regarding Architectural photography – Here is a award winning photographer who is shooting with Phase One back

My two cents: Get the back you want first then go for a camera system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

WOW, I just looked at Tim Griffith's website, amazing work. I also looked at Riner viertlböck's website, nice work as well, but there is something very weird here.

THE DESIGN OF BOTH WEBSITES ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!

Inquiring minds want to know, is this plagurism at it's best?

[Raoul]

I am surprised that the business case is not among your selection criteria. Which camera is likely to produce what payback when? At what cost? What is the opportunity cost of waiting for a product that may or may not make it to the market in six months? If there is a price difference, does the client pay for the difference in results? Is your workflow easier or more difficult with one product or another?

[SeanBK]

free1000,
        I stand corrected, you are right @ the aspects of tilt/shift. I was just so impressed @ distortion correction of H3D & 28mm.

[Ethan Schoonover]

I am surprised that the business case is not among your selection criteria. Which camera is likely to produce what payback when? At what cost? What is the opportunity cost of waiting for a product that may or may not make it to the market in six months? If there is a price difference, does the client pay for the difference in results? Is your workflow easier or more difficult with one product or another?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good question Raoul. The business case determined the move to MF, period, and as such is a precursor to beginning the product analysis at all. I do my business projections on a quarterly basis and my annual business review at year end. I had begun the evaluate MF early in 2006 initially but did not make the decision to move to it till my annual review YE2006.

I've already calculated costs of the MFD system ammortized across an expected product lifetime (*use* lifetime, before buying/upgrading to new gear). Even the top end MFD system will be well within expected profitability. I'm certainly not pinning my business on a single product, nor on MFD alone. I do expect it will increase certain segments of work, but I am not basing my cost/revenue projections solely on new business. I have several jobs in the pipeline that I feel will be significantly more successful, and thus generate longer term relationships and work, if I make the move to MFD now. If I don't, I still have the jobs, but I feel the work quality will be a notch down and less differentiated in the market.

I too would strongly recommend that anyone considering MFD crunch the numbers, but I'm also assuming that anyone looking at it seriously already has.

Regarding the different systems available, I should add as well that costing a product like a MFD system is not a trivial "which product will be most profitable" equation. There are soft numbers, such as opportunity costs, there are price differentials between higher and lower resolution systems. E.g. spending now on a 22MP back system would make little sense if the market shifts significantly within 2007 due to Canon entering at that resolution. Potential price shifts alone make that a less appealing option.

[med007]

Wow... what a thread/bar-fight/informative article/mosh-pit. Here's where I'm at now:

• Lining up appointments with the dealers (as was the case when the thread started)
  
  
• Putting the Leaf AFi on the short list with Sinar and H. Leaning more towards the Hy6/AFi over the H.
  
  
• Thinking back to the arguments that I grew up with in the midwest: chevy/ford
  
  
• Thinking that no matter what I chose, no matter my reasons, I'll upset 1/3 of the forum members, please 1/3 and the other 1/3 won't care either way...

Regarding the issue of anonymity/real-identity: there is an excellent article on A List Apart about this explaining why anonymity in forums can lead to very poor behavior. I'd say the de facto, community enforced policy of "real identity" on these forums is a very good thing.

Personally, no matter what gear each one of us uses, I value the input, experience and time that the you all share. I try to keep in mind that we're all sitting in this virtual studio together and will do my best to be straight talking yet polite, as I'd be if we were face to face.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When, last year, the discord, discourtesy, closures of threads and banning grew like a cholera outbreak, groups of photographers struggled to find a better way. At the time a number of alternative fora were spwaned. One from London focused on MF and LF backs and a number of us joined. This was mostly invited and started very well but faded.

Others sucked up great contributers and closed.

We at OPF took another tack based on two ideas. First accountability, everyone gave their true names. So reputation is always at stake. Next there's no closures, banning or censorship.
The OPF community is protected in that to get in, every single entrant is checked. We've excluded over 500 people for very good reason before they were even given search or posting privileges. The community has, photographers who run succesful businesses and others who are enthusiasts.

My first check in the morning is what's on the BBC, "Are we at war with someone else", then "What new idea does Michael have?"  Here, there are enough smart people to self-regulate, real names or not!

Formal head to head tournament shootourts will always have bias and controversy. however, they are worth trying. I see thins differently.

Regarding the quality of backs. I believe it must be qualified by purpose style and budget and investment recapture cycle as well as company futture path of the product. We at OPF, are providing a RAW Files Photo-Bank with RAW files of all Pro cameras for sharing and reporting on.

We started with M8 DNG files. That has worked well. If you have files to provide, give a web page as well so the framework in which you use the images can be referenced. Rights usage is limited to posting in OPF and of course here with © of the actual photographer. Also add the camera and lens details if its not in the EXIF. State context of shot, ie planned end use for the series. Please PM me if you can help us.

Submission details to the RAW files Photo-Bank are [a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19301#post19301] here[/url].

In addition, with permisson, we'll post some for challenge for people to process however they like (and post with © attribution) to explore some of the potential of didparate files.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...ht=Central+Park

This is, I believe is one realistic and honest approach that no one can argue with. I am truly unbiased. You judge as many files as you wish. Also check backs for your own work. We have enough qualified photographers in many fields to cover a spectrum of styles.

I have myself trained with the Leaf system and am now looking at other backs.

Asher Kelman

Open Photography Forums

No need to join OPF to contribute. This is only a call for RAW files with context for purpose. OPF has no pretentions to the richness of LL and I'm no guru!

[rainer_v]

When, last year, the discord, discourtesy, closures of threads and banning grew like a cholera outbreak, groups of photographers struggled to find a better way. At the time a number of alternative fora were spwaned. One from London focused on MF and LF backs and a number of us joined. This was mostly invited and started very well but faded.

Others sucked up great contributers and closed.

We at OPF took another tack based on two ideas. First accountability, everyone gave their true names. So reputation is always at stake. Next there's no closures, banning or censorship.
The OPF community is protected in that to get in, every single entrant is checked. We've excluded over 500 people for very good reason before they were even given search or posting privileges. The community has, photographers who run succesful businesses and others who are enthusiasts.

My first check in the morning is what's on the BBC, "Are we at war with someone else", then "What new idea does Michael have?"  Here, there are enough smart people to self-regulate, real names or not!

Formal head to head tournament shootourts will always have bias and controversy. however, they are worth trying. I see thins differently.

Regarding the quality of backs. I believe it must be qualified by purpose style and budget and investment recapture cycle as well as company futture path of the product. We at OPF, are providing a RAW Files Photo-Bank with RAW files of all Pro cameras for sharing and reporting on.

We started with M8 DNG files. That has worked well. If you have files to provide, give a web page as well so the framework in which you use the images can be referenced. Rights usage is limited to posting in OPF and of course here with © of the actual photographer. Also add the camera and lens details if its not in the EXIF. State context of shot, ie planned end use for the series. Please PM me if you can help us.

Submission details to the RAW files Photo-Bank are here.

In addition, with permisson, we'll post some for challenge for people to process however they like (and post with © attribution) to explore some of the potential of didparate files.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...ht=Central+Park

This is, I believe is one realistic and honest approach that no one can argue with. I am truly unbiased. You judge as many files as you wish. Also check backs for your own work. We have enough qualified photographers in many fields to cover a spectrum of styles.

I have myself trained with the Leaf system and am now looking at other backs.

Asher Kelman

Open Photography Forums

No need to join OPF to contribute. This is only a call for RAW files with context for purpose. OPF has no pretentions to the richness of LL and I'm no guru!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99893\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i think thats a great idea and i will send you soon some files from the emotions.....
i think thats far more interesting than this 1:1 comparations.... which invite many critics, cause they never seem to be "fair" for everybody.

[mkravit]

i think thats a great idea and i will send you soon some files from the emotions.....
i think thats far more interesting than this 1:1 comparations.... which invite many critics, cause they never seem to be "fair" for everybody.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ranier,

Am I mistaken to say that the design and layout of your website and the design and layout of Tim Griffith's website are incredibly similar.

If I had hired a webdesigner and he did this sort of thing I would be pissed to say the least.

[rethmeier]

Michael,

Rainers and Tim's website are very similar,however it's off topic.

Aren't we discussing the Hy6,H3D etc?

Websites and workstyles are copied while we speak.

It's nothing we can do about.

Cheers,

Willem.

[Camdavidson]

Michael,

Rainers and Tim's website are very similar,however it's off topic.

Aren't we discussing the Hy6,H3D etc?

Websites and workstyles are copied while we speak.

It's nothing we can do about.

Cheers,

Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's funny, I rarely read the LL forums.  I recently purchased a Phase P30 and thought I would check in and read the thoughts and opinions offered.  I see some names of people I know.  Yair, who is honest and forthright to a fault and my friend Tim Griffith's name being mentioned.

This thread has drifted all over the place and not just about web site designs.  There has been discussion about testing, reps speaking with each other, a lot has transpired and some very good information has been shared.

I do find it interesting that Tim's site may have inspired other photographers to have a site designed with a similar look and feel.

If one photographer shot, say food or portraits and the design was similar than it would not matter.  But two photographers with similar subjects and styles - I would think it would be easy for a potential client to confuse one with the other.  Personally, I would not want a site to look similar to someone's who was my competition.

But given the level that Tim shoots at and the awards he has won, I don't see many photographers who can compete at his level.

The P45 is a killer back for architecture and just about any type of high-end shooting.  I purchased the P30 primarily for the promise of the Plus.  That it will be fast enough to keep up with my aerial work and for portraits.  A few months ago I was able to test Imacon, Phase and Aptus backs within a couple of hours.  I would have loved to have tested a Sinar.  The built in memory is a great asset for their backs.  I went with Phase because I know and use Capture One with my Canons.  The learning curve for any of the medium format backs is pretty tough - C1 eased the way for me.  Plus, I found a dealer that offers incredible service and very fair prices.

To me, it goes beyond the back - I want and need good service and solid software that works consistently.  

In closing, I think the idea of this type of test is great, but please consider the other pieces of the pie.  Service, the software, dealer support and even if you have friends who use the same type of back should also be given some weight in your decision making process.

[John_Black]

Cameron - Some people my copy your site too, but they are going to have to bust some serious @ss to copy those shots.  I love those aerials.  Very cool stuff!

[thsinar]

I am surprised that the business case is not among your selection criteria. Which camera is likely to produce what payback when? At what cost? What is the opportunity cost of waiting for a product that may or may not make it to the market in six months? If there is a price difference, does the client pay for the difference in results? Is your workflow easier or more difficult with one product or another?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Raoul,

your are absolutely right! Although you might have notied that market prices are comming together and there is not big differences anymore between same types of MFDB's.
More important for me would be to integrate the analysis of the whole workflow.

Best regards,
Thierry

[Ethan Schoonover]

Dear Raoul,

your are absolutely right! Although you might have notied that market prices are comming together and there is not big differences anymore between same types of MFDB's.
More important for me would be to integrate the analysis of the whole workflow.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99983\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly. It's a little bit like buying a new delivery truck for the farm I used to work on. The decision is first made to buy the truck (any truck), then we look at various features, loading options, capacity, etc.

We don't ask: is Ford going to be more profitable than Chevy? One or the other may be better suited, but from the perspective of buying *any* truck (vs. a car, for example) it's splitting hairs. The budget is either there or it isn't for the entire category of MFDB. If you're in that segment of the market, then the budget is there.

[rainer_v]

about my website and the very similar design to tims page i became aware maybe 1,5 years before, after someone in rgalbraight realised that the sites are looking nearly identic.
tim griffith and me had afterward some email correspondence about it.
at that time my  page already was  several years online.  it was original designed by a local munich webdesigner, although i finished the site alone after he didnt got the thing ready in a very  long time. we agreed that i could use  the fundamental design idea and finished the site, as simple as possible ( after 3 days going in macromedia help files ).  
in any case i wanted to bring up a modified webpage since longer time - but i didnt took the time to do it. i will force that now, cause the discussion here is more than awkward and its not in my interest and not in my usual style to copy anybody .....

[mkravit]

about my website and the very similar design to tims page i became aware maybe 1,5 years before, after someone in rgalbraight realised that the sites are looking nearly identic.
tim griffith and me had afterward some email correspondence about it.
at that time my  page already was  several years online.  it was original designed by a local munich webdesigner, although i finished the site alone after he didnt got the thing ready in a very  long time. we agreed that i could use  the fundamental design idea and finished the site, as simple as possible ( after 3 days going in macromedia help files ). 
in any case i wanted to bring up a modified webpage since longer time - but i didnt took the time to do it. i will force that now, cause the discussion here is more than awkward and its not in my interest and not in my usual style to copy anybody .....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ranier,

I didn't mean to upset you, but it appeared to me that some over zealous webdesigner might have copied one of the two sites and maybe you had no idea that it had been done.

I am glad to see that you have the ethical prowess to make forthcoming changes. That is admirable.

An the other topics in this thread are very interesting and make for good reading.

Thanks

[thsinar]

Ranier,

I didn't mean to upset you, but it appeared to me that some over zealous webdesigner might have copied one of the two sites and maybe you had no idea that it had been done.

I am glad to see that you have the ethical prowess to make forthcoming changes. That is admirable.

An the other topics in this thread are very interesting and make for good reading.

Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100011\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

what I admire also, is that when Rainer noticed the similarity after having been alerted on another forum, he contacted Tim himself immediately, and they agreed together.

I cannot imagine that a person like Rainer can ever plagiarize somebody, knowing him so very well and having worked with him.

Thierry

[rainer_v]

what I admire also, is that when Rainer noticed the similarity after having been alerted on another forum, he contacted Tim himself immediately, and they agreed together.

I cannot imagine that a person like Rainer can ever plagiarize somebody, knowing him so very well and having worked with him.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100013\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

it was him who contacted me, some other photographer wrote him a note and to me also.

i apologize that i was simply to lazy to change my site or to engage someone to do it,
although i had it several times in my head.
so i will make a jump now and throw it away later this day -
replacing it provisional-  as so many others sites are also real "sites",- why not mine too for a while..... it wont be a drama for some weeks .