Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine

[Alan Klein]

Well, at least you're not embarrassed to display your bias, I'll give you that.

It's usually better not to decide the outcome beforehand if you want to truly understand things.

Would imposing be better than interfering?    My point was that in prior years, the government provided flu vaccines and care for people who caught it.  There were generally accepted procedures set up for inoculation and treatment.  WE should use those figures to see what a "normal" flu year looked like.  Similarly, in 2020, for Covid, certain similar procedures although more drastic, were taken to handle Covid.  It would be interesting to see what happens with normal government activity in each case for each disease.  So you really have to compare different annual periods.  What the government did in 2020 was not a normal year for flu statistics.

[Peter McLennan]

...Why do you think you only have the facts and the truth?  We all just pick the facts like everyone else to support our viewpoints.    No one has a monopoly on the truth.   

Actually, Alan, we ALL have a monopoly on the truth.  Truth is truth.  Truth is not a matter of opinion.

However, since you're a trumpist, you believe that only your "truths" are true.  Kinda like organized religion.

[chez]

Deaths from airplane accidents went down as well as flu in 2020 due to measures taken by the government.  But you want to compare things to normalcy, at least in addition to current figures for 2020.

The fact is he cherry-picked the statistics to make Covid look worse. We all do that.  We pick articles and statistics to prove our opinion and leave it to the other side to prove theirs.  I'm just pointing out that he's no different than the rest of us.  We have to take his arguments with a grain of salt.

The difference in your example is that airplane deaths have nothing to do with viruses, but the flu and COVID have everything to do with viruses.

Alan, why do you think the flu death totals in 20/21 are so much lower than previous years. Now think hard, do you feel the reasons the flu deaths are lower also affects COVID deaths? So you feel comparing the flu deaths of 2018 where there were no masking, no distancing…in fact no measures in place with the 2020 Covid deaths when there were a lot of measures in place…that gives you a better picture than taking data from the same years where the same measures were in place for both the flu and Covid?

[Alan Klein]

The difference in your example is that airplane deaths have nothing to do with viruses, but the flu and COVID have everything to do with viruses.

Alan, why do you think the flu death totals in 20/21 are so much lower than previous years. Now think hard, do you feel the reasons the flu deaths are lower also affects COVID deaths? So you feel comparing the flu deaths of 2018 where there were no masking, no distancing…in fact no measures in place with the 2020 Covid deaths when there were a lot of measures in place…that gives you a better picture than taking data from the same years where the same measures were in place for both the flu and Covid?

I gave you my answer but you don't want to accept my opinion. Read my last post again.

[chez]

I gave you my answer but you don't want to accept my opinion. Read my last post again.

Unfortunately I reread your last post and I still ask you this question:

Do you really feel comparing one year where there are no restrictions in place against another year where there are numerous restrictions in place gives you an accurate view of things?

[Chris Kern]

We all just pick the facts like everyone else to support our viewpoints.

No.  Some people ascertain the facts in order to inform a viewpoint.

[Alan Klein]

No.  Some people ascertain the facts in order to inform a viewpoint.

There are two facts.  Flu deaths when flu policies are in affect.  And a second statistic, a one off, when Covid policies were in effect. Both statistics are true.   
My original statement which Tech I don't believe has refuted is that he was influenced to pick the fact that made covid look worse.

[chez]

There are two facts.  Flu deaths when flu policies are in affect.  And a second statistic, a one off, when Covid policies were in effect. Both statistics are true.   
My original statement which Tech I don't believe has refuted is that he was influenced to pick the fact that made covid look worse.

No, he picked a time when isolation measures were in place for both viruses, thus an scenario that affected by viruses equally.

[Alan Klein]

No, he picked a time when isolation measures were in place for both viruses, thus an scenario that affected by viruses equally.

I said he cherry picked it because it made covid look worse. I don't believe he's denied that he was influenced by the fact that the 2020 flu numbers made covid look worse. If he does, then I'll apologize to him.

[chez]

I said he cherry picked it because it made covid look worse. I don't believe he's denied that he was influenced by the fact that the 2020 flu numbers made covid look worse. If he does, then I'll apologize to him.

Maybe Covid looks worse because Covid IS worse.

You have not answered my question:

Do the masking / distancing etc… measures affect the flu and Covid in the same manners?

Another one for you Alan. Do you feel without these distancing / masking measures in place that both the flu deaths and Covid deaths would have been much higher in 20/21?

[Alan Klein]

Maybe Covid looks worse because Covid IS worse.

You have not answered my question:

Do the masking / distancing etc… measures affect the flu and Covid in the same manners?

Another one for you Alan. Do you feel without these distancing / masking measures in place that both the flu deaths and Covid deaths would have been much higher in 20/21?

Yes and yes.

[chez]

Yes and yes.

Then explain why you feel comparing flu and Covid deaths during 20/21 years so biased.

[Alan Klein]

That wasn't my point.  My point was that Tech cherry picked 2020 because the lower flu deaths made covid look worse then if he picked a normal non-covid period which had fewer deaths too but not as few.   

[chez]

That wasn't my point.  My point was that Tech cherry picked 2020 because the lower flu deaths made covid look worse then if he picked a normal non-covid period which had fewer deaths too but not as few.

It’s not cherry picking…those years are the only ones where both viruses were active under the exact equivalent measures. Do you feel it’s more realistic to use flu data when zero measures are in place and compare against Covid figures when everyone is masked, distanced or in fact hiding in their basements?

[Alan Klein]

It’s not cherry picking…those years are the only ones where both viruses were active under the exact equivalent measures. Do you feel it’s more realistic to use flu data when zero measures are in place and compare against Covid figures when everyone is masked, distanced or in fact hiding in their basements?

See my last post.

[chez]

See my last post.

You win. You can outlast me on this merry-go-round.

[TechTalk]

There will be plenty of additional opportunities for more rides. The supply of merry-go-rounds is limitless. But, the operator of the ride always outlasts the riders as they never tire of the repetition.

[PeterAit]

I gave you my answer but you don't want to accept my opinion. Read my last post again.

Why should we accept your opinion when it is factually wrong? Science does not care what you (or I) believe.

[TechTalk]

it's too late to bring in Pre 2020 flu statistics in this post. Your original post left them out and used only the atypical 2020 flu figures. So it appears that you cherry-picked the statistics to make your point and put your thumb on the scale. Your point would have been good enough using pre 2020. You should have used them.

So now, going forward, we won't trust you when you start throwing statistics at us. Your arguments will become less believable.  We'lll question whether you're cherry picking them again.

The fact is he cherry-picked the statistics to make Covid look worse.

My original statement which Tech I don't believe has refuted is that he was influenced to pick the fact that made covid look worse.

I said he cherry picked it because it made covid look worse. I don't believe he's denied that he was influenced by the fact that the 2020 flu numbers made covid look worse. If he does, then I'll apologize to him.

That wasn't my point.  My point was that Tech cherry picked 2020 because the lower flu deaths made covid look worse then [than] if he picked a normal non-covid period which had fewer deaths too but not as few.

First, my "original post" was a response to this ridiculous false assertion...

For those under 45, the fatality rate is comparable to the flu. 

No matter how you try to slice the two pies for comparison, it's an absurd statement and false.

Secondly, I don't know who the "we" are for whom you presume to speak and I won't ask because I don't care. I also don't care what you believe regarding my motives and therefore am not looking for, nor desire, any apology.

I already supplied, multiple times, the logic and motivation for the initial choice of a single data set which encompassed the entirety of the nearly two years of COVID-19 fatality data which exists and to which I supplied a link. You can find those here, and here (in which I also included flu data for the worst season in a decade, and once again here. Please note that I included all of the data available for both 2020 and 2021 and not just 2020 as you keep claiming. It will come up again later.

Finally, though I don't care about your presumptions or assertions regarding my motives; I will, in a post to follow, address your assertions regarding "cherry-picking" data and your concept of what that means.

[Alan Klein]

You still have not denied my assertion.