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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 33169 times)

faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1340 on: April 21, 2021, 04:20:36 pm »

Thanks Josh for your post.  Jeremy's been personally insulting me for weeks.  I had to put him on my Ignore list along with Digital Dog who was doing the same.  It really makes it difficult to have intelligent discussions.

One might want to consider this post from Alan in response to one of Jeremy's posts before drawing any conclusions about why Alan finds it difficult to have an intelligent conversation:

So you think Black Americans are ignorant.  That they're still picking cotton and don't know how to get an ID when ID's are required to get into an office or public building, drive, have a bank account,  or to get welfare or food stamps if they're poor.  Maybe we should stick black people's thumbs into purple ink after they vote as they did in Iraq to prevent double-voting since they're incapable of showing identity and signing their names on the voting list at the voting place like white people do.  Do you realize how insulting and racist your opinion of black people is?

It goes without saying that Alan's description does not reflect Jeremy's opinion of black people. It is a heinous accusation.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:11:26 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1341 on: April 21, 2021, 04:28:26 pm »

More assumptions without any evidentiary support.

I will share an anecdote about my vaccine experience. I got my first shot in early March. It was a drive through site. The vaccine was Pfizer. I had a short wait of perhaps five or ten minutes. There were three cars in front of me. My follow up dose was scheduled for a Thursday three weeks later. Thursday arrived, and I received a notification that my appointment had been rescheduled for Friday because it was raining. On Friday there was a long line. I probably waited an hour. The tech that administered my shot apologized for the wait, and told me there were fulfilling appointments for both Thursday and Friday. Just making sure everyone got their shots in a timely manner. Oh, I didn't see a freezer anywhere. I suspect that is different from your experience in January and February. There are over 3000 counties in the US, some of which have several vaccination locations. I suspect each of them is doing things a little differently.

I think I may have mentioned that different locations in my county use different vaccines. When the FDA and CDC recommended pausing the J&J vaccine, the J&J location used one of the other vaccines. I doubt that my county is unique in that regard. At least in my county, getting an appointment is not a problem. There are so many appointment slots going unfilled, some of the locations are taking walk-ins.
I stated that the place I went to only had Moderna shots to give.  That's evidentiary support.  Out of the thousands of vaccinations places, I'm sure there are many similar ones who were similarly situated. Why are you giving your opinion without evidentiary support but I need it?  Why is your opinion better than mine? This is a photo forum not a court of law.  We all are giving our opinions all the time.  What make your opinions the truth?

In any case, I'm sure some facilities were able to make up with other vaccines even doubling their appointment schedules for double dosing.  Many others probably just cancelled their appts period until they could get makeup vaccines.  To argue as you have that it's cancellation has had no effect on the vaccination rate counters common sense.  We won't know the full effect for weeks when surveys are completed that will provide exact statistics.  It may have been worse in other countries who didn't have access to other vaccines at all.  In any case, it seems to me and a lot of other more experience people, that the government over-reacted. 

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1342 on: April 21, 2021, 04:59:32 pm »

You're assuming that outlets only giving Johnson have Pfizer or Moderna as backup in their facilities.  No one is keeping storage like that.  So once the Johnson vaccinations are stopped, the facility would have to wait for a shipment of Moderna or Pfizer.  How long does that take?  Even I don't think Trump's Operation Warp Speed is that efficient.

Once again, as is your habit, you post a reply which has no relationship whatever to the post which you're quoting and to which you're pretending to reply. My post was only in regard to your false assumption and repeated statement that vaccine sites require "special refrigeration equipment" for the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. They don't. I gave you chapter and verse and the links to detailed storage information that proves it. Your reply is totally unresponsive to my post and simply goes off on an unrelated tangent.

Also, I've made no assumptions regarding what vaccine sites are doing. I've simply poked holes in false assumptions you've made like the requirement for "special refrigeration equipment".
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1343 on: April 21, 2021, 05:04:39 pm »

Why are you giving your opinion without evidentiary support but I need it?  Why is your opinion better than mine? This is a photo forum not a court of law.  We all are giving our opinions all the time.  What make your opinions the truth?

I did not express any opinions in my post. I recounted anecdotal information about my vaccination experience. I expressed two suspicions, first that my vaccination experience in March was different than your experience in January, and second that since there are 3000 counties in the US, some with multiple vaccination locations, different locations may handle things a little differently. I never expressed that any of my opinions were better than yours, nor did I claim my opinions were true, because I didn't express any opinions.

To argue as you have that it's cancellation has had no effect on the vaccination rate counters common sense.

It is immediately obvious to anyone who reads my post that I made no such argument.

We won't know the full effect for weeks when surveys are completed that will provide exact statistics.

Which makes one wonder how you have reached the conclusions you have.

It may have been worse in other countries who didn't have access to other vaccines at all.

That might be true or it might not be true. I have not seen any data one way or the other.

In any case, it seems to me and a lot of other more experience people, that the government over-reacted.

That is one view. There is a difference of opinion among experienced people. You are free to agree with whomever you want for whatever reason you want. I haven't expressed an opinion on whether the government over-reacted or not. I have challenged your opinion because it is based on many assumptions without evidentiary support.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 06:12:33 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1344 on: April 21, 2021, 05:24:23 pm »

I did not express any opinions in my post. I recounted anecdotal information about my vaccination experience. I expressed two suspicions, first that my vaccination experience in March was different than your experience in January, and second that since there are 3000 counties in the US, some with multiple vaccination locations, different locations may handle things a little differently. I never expressed that any of my opinions were better than yours, nor did I claim my opinions were true, because I didn't express any opinions.

It is immediately obvious to anyone who reads my post that I made no such argument.

Which make one wonder how you have reached the conclusions you have.

That might be be true or it might not be true. I have not seen any data one way or the other.

That is one view. There is a difference of opinion among experienced people. You are free to agree with whomever you want for whatever reason you want. I haven't expressed an opinion on whether the government over-reacted or not. I have challenged your opinion because it is based on many assumptions without evidentiary support.
We're giving our opinions on how smart it was for the government to stop Johnson's vaccination.  Of course, much statistical evidence of what effect it has caused can't be collected until time has passed.  Meanwhile, thousands may die of Covid because they missed their shots.  I forget which general said that attacking the enemy today without all the facts is a lot better than attacking with more facts a week from now.   The war could be over by then. 

faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1345 on: April 21, 2021, 05:44:30 pm »

We're giving our opinions on how smart it was for the government to stop Johnson's vaccination.  Of course, much statistical evidence of what effect it has caused can't be collected until time has passed.  Meanwhile, thousands may die of Covid because they missed their shots.  I forget which general said that attacking the enemy today without all the facts is a lot better than attacking with more facts a week from now.   The war could be over by then.

No, "we" are not giving our opinions. You are giving your opinion. I have not expressed an opinion on whether the FDA and CDC recommending a pause on J&J vaccine was a good idea or a bad idea. I have challenged your opinion because it is based on many assumptions that are without evidentiary support.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 06:06:28 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1346 on: April 21, 2021, 06:08:33 pm »

You conveniently ignored the part of the article.. [Blah, Blah, Blah]

I didn't conveniently ignore what you wrote. I quoted one of your statements and replied to it. I'm not going to waste any more time than I already have as you run down different rabbits holes with yet another reply that is unresponsive to a post to which you're pretending to reply, but instead are going off on a different tangent.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1347 on: April 21, 2021, 06:12:12 pm »

You do realize you are participating in an Alan Klein vs. the World series on your own volition?

Excellent point.  Much of this repetitive bickering serves nobody's interest, except, perhaps, to keep the respective bickerers occupied.

Alan represents a common man's views on the matter, his views are not extreme politically, and definitely is not dishonest.

I quite agree, at least with your first two arguments.  He articulates a certain perspective that is representative of almost half the voting population of the United States, and which deserves to be heard and understood by the other half.  (I have no personal exposure to people who share that perspective, so I read all—well, maybe almost all—his posts, however fatuous and repetitive they may be.)

With respect to dishonest, I can't tell.  He asserts as facts many things that are obviously untrue, and when confronted with contrary and sometimes incontrovertible evidence, keeps repeating them.  But it doesn't matter whether he is intentionally making things up or is just confused: either way, he represents an important segment of current public opinion in the United States.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 07:22:37 pm by Chris Kern »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1348 on: April 21, 2021, 08:13:58 pm »

One might want to consider this post from Alan in response to one of Jeremy's posts before drawing any conclusions about why Alan finds it difficult to have an intelligent conversation:

It goes without saying that Alan's description does not reflect Jeremy's opinion of black people. It is a heinous accusation.

Since you went to the trouble to find and quote the “offending” post (thank you), perhaps it would have been fair to quote the reason for such a post? Namely, what in Jeremy’s earlier posts prompted Alan to say what he said. Which, to me, without seeing Jeremy’s arguments, sounds like an inference or conjecture, a reaction to the claim that certain state voting laws are designed to limit voting rights by requiring an ID. If so, Alan’s position shouldn’t be seen as  personally offensive to Jeremy, but simply as a political position shared by many in the Congress. Namely, that opposing the ID requirements on the grounds that certain segments of the black population might find it difficult to obtain it is in itself racist, as it presupposes that such a segment is too stupid to do so.

In any case, that’s my reading of the Alan’s quote you presented.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1349 on: April 21, 2021, 08:46:37 pm »

Since you went to the trouble to find and quote the “offending” post (thank you), perhaps it would have been fair to quote the reason for such a post? Namely, what in Jeremy’s earlier posts prompted Alan to say what he said.

The exchange went like this...

Now I have a question for you. Why should your Canada and probably most other countries have ID requirements but America should waive its requirements?  That's what Democrats want us to do.

It could be because in Canada there is not such racism and inequality that strict ID requirements don't result in disenfranchisement of a specific demographic.

So you think Black Americans are ignorant.  That they're still picking cotton and don't know how to get an ID when ID's are required to get into an office or public building, drive, have a bank account,  or to get welfare or food stamps if they're poor.  Maybe we should stick black people's thumbs into purple ink after they vote as they did in Iraq to prevent double-voting since they're incapable of showing identity and signing their names on the voting list at the voting place like white people do.  Do you realize how insulting and racist your opinion of black people is?

Jeremy said nothing of the sort. They're your words and I daresay your opinion.
If you have a modicum of self-respect, you'll apologise.

I'm not holding my breath

But that's what Jeremy is implying when he says black people don't have the ability or intelligence to obtain ID's so they can vote just like white people.  He's the one who owes the apology. To them.  If Jeremy believes otherwise, then he can defend himself.

Now, I take a different view.,  I believe not only do black people know how to get ID's, but they too want the vote to be honest and not allow their votes to be watered down by those who would use gaps in the rules to stuff ballot boxes for candidates who would not have won the election but for election fraud.

All-in-all, pretty disgusting and insulting. It definitely prompted an ongoing response from Jeremy as Alan simply ignored or deflected Jeremy's multiple requests for an apology.
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1350 on: April 21, 2021, 08:53:12 pm »

Since you went to the trouble to find and quote the “offending” post (thank you), perhaps it would have been fair to quote the reason for such a post? Namely, what in Jeremy’s earlier posts prompted Alan to say what he said. Which, to me, without seeing Jeremy’s arguments, sounds like an inference or conjecture, a reaction to the claim that certain state voting laws are designed to limit voting rights by requiring an ID. If so, Alan’s position shouldn’t be seen as  personally offensive to Jeremy, but simply as a political position shared by many in the Congress. Namely, that opposing the ID requirements on the grounds that certain segments of the black population might find it difficult to obtain it is in itself racist, as it presupposes that such a segment is too stupid to do so.

In any case, that’s my reading of the Alan’s quote you presented.

You are certainly entitled to your reading. I disagree with you. I think there is no excuse for Alan's post.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1351 on: April 21, 2021, 10:19:14 pm »

Since you went to the trouble to find and quote the “offending” post (thank you), perhaps it would have been fair to quote the reason for such a post? Namely, what in Jeremy’s earlier posts prompted Alan to say what he said. Which, to me, without seeing Jeremy’s arguments, sounds like an inference or conjecture, a reaction to the claim that certain state voting laws are designed to limit voting rights by requiring an ID. If so, Alan’s position shouldn’t be seen as  personally offensive to Jeremy, but simply as a political position shared by many in the Congress. Namely, that opposing the ID requirements on the grounds that certain segments of the black population might find it difficult to obtain it is in itself racist, as it presupposes that such a segment is too stupid to do so.

In any case, that’s my reading of the Alan’s quote you presented.
Thanks for explaining my post. You did a better job than I could have.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1352 on: April 21, 2021, 10:26:23 pm »

The exchange went like this...

All-in-all, pretty disgusting and insulting. It definitely prompted an ongoing response from Jeremy as Alan simply ignored or deflected Jeremy's multiple requests for an apology.
I'll repeat what I said. It's demeaning if not racist for white people to think that blacks are incapable of getting ID's as white people do.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1353 on: April 21, 2021, 10:33:30 pm »

Excellent point.  Much of this repetitive bickering serves nobody's interest, except, perhaps, to keep the respective bickerers occupied.

I quite agree, at least with your first two arguments.  He articulates a certain perspective that is representative of almost half the voting population of the United States, and which deserves to be heard and understood by the other half.  (I have no personal exposure to people who share that perspective, so I read all—well, maybe almost all—his posts, however fatuous and repetitive they may be.)

With respect to dishonest, I can't tell.  He asserts as facts many things that are obviously untrue, and when confronted with contrary and sometimes incontrovertible evidence, keeps repeating them.  But it doesn't matter whether he is intentionally making things up or is just confused: either way, he represents an important segment of current public opinion in the United States.
Like Hillary Clinton you wou;d never associate with lepers or deplorables. Well, maybe the first.

James Clark

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1354 on: April 21, 2021, 10:34:27 pm »

I'll repeat what I said. It's demeaning if not racist for white people to think that blacks are incapable of getting ID's as white people do.

This is not the argument, as I’ve explained 4 (I think) times now. I think you even agreed with me once. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1355 on: April 21, 2021, 11:39:46 pm »

This is not the argument, as I’ve explained 4 (I think) times now. I think you even agreed with me once. 
I agree with much of what we discussed.  But while many whites feel legitimately that some black people would have problems getting ID's, many whites look at the situation with a noblesse oblige attitude.  I think that's demeaning to people, of any race.  Every human wants to feel that others respect that  he can stand on his own feet. 

jeremyrh

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1356 on: April 22, 2021, 03:06:40 am »

This will be my last word on this or any subject on Lula:

Alan, you claimed I said certain things, as quoted above. You didn't say "suggested", or "implied" or anything of that sort which would have served to qualify your claim. You made a statement of fact, which was false, and served to impugn me. Your words fit any definition of 'libel'.  Instead of apologising and retracting your claims, you have restated your position.

Josh, you seem to want to run this website as a free fire zone where Klein can make any claims he wants, valid or false, without constraint. You may imagine that the internet is some magic land where the laws of libel do not apply.  I assure you that it isn't. I am an elderly person and I don't plan to spend the last years of my life pursuing satisfaction over this issue. One day you may encounter a poster who has more leisure to do so, and at that point you will regret this policy.

Regardless, I am done here. I thank those who have entertained and informed, and wish you fair light and full frames.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 03:29:54 am by jeremyrh »
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Manoli

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1357 on: April 22, 2021, 03:25:08 am »

In any case, this thread is disintegrating as is LuLa overall.

Stand up and take a bow.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1358 on: April 22, 2021, 04:00:20 am »

The exchange went like this...

All-in-all, pretty disgusting and insulting. It definitely prompted an ongoing response from Jeremy as Alan simply ignored or deflected Jeremy's multiple requests for an apology.

So my assessment was correct.

Any reasonable, non-snowflake reading of Alan’s post would come to the same conclusion. Alan’s claim was that Jeremy’s position was by implication in itself racist. There was no statement at any point that Jeremy is racist, just that he et al have not quite thought their position through to see the logical implication. The same position (as Alan’s) is currently held by many members of Congress and other political figures.

Oh, btw, the triggering statement by Jeremy is the preposterous, outrageous statement that there is racism in the States. There is none, short of the one invented and manufactured by Democrats for political purposes.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1359 on: April 22, 2021, 04:04:37 am »

This will be my last word on this or any subject on Lula...

Oh, mate, stop the cosplay... the snowflake costume doesn’t suit you. We love you nevertheless   :-*
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