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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 33175 times)

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1300 on: April 20, 2021, 09:33:24 pm »

How do people who had the appointments canceled because they were scheduled to take Johnson's vaccine suppose to get the shot?

By substituting one or both of the more plentiful and widely available mRNA vaccines from Pfizer/BioNTech or the Moderna vaccine which was jointly created by Moderna and the Vaccine Research Center which was spearheaded and formed by Dr. Fauci as part of the NIAID in 1997.

They now go to the end of the line and have to make re-appointments.

Do they? Where is that happening? What percentage of vaccine providers are telling patients that, if any?

Many places only have the Johnson vaccine so they can't immediately substitute.

How many? Are there any? Does a vaccine provider only have access to one of the three vaccines that are currently available and not have the other two available to them?

The other vaccines have to be distributed to them

Sure, unless they already have other vaccines in stock in addition to the J&J, in which case that stock simply would need to be replenished more rapidly. How long does it take to reallocate the available vaccine inventories?

So many assertions made without any evidence in support of their assumed existence and magnitude.
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1301 on: April 20, 2021, 09:40:33 pm »

My beliefs are not dependent on what others think...

or much — if any — evidence, it often seems.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1302 on: April 20, 2021, 09:45:49 pm »

By substituting one or both of the more plentiful and widely available mRNA vaccines from Pfizer/BioNTech or the Moderna vaccine which was jointly created by Moderna and the Vaccine Research Center which was spearheaded and formed by Dr. Fauci as part of the NIAID in 1997.

Do they? Where is that happening? What percentage of vaccine providers are telling patients that, if any?

How many? Are there any? Does a vaccine provider only have access to one of the three vaccines that are currently available and not have the other two available to them?

Sure, unless they already have other vaccines in stock in addition to the J&J, in which case that stock simply would need to be replenished more rapidly. How long does it take to reallocate the available vaccine inventories?

So many assertions made without any evidence in support of their assumed existence and magnitude.
I don't know why any places would stock and use more than one vaccine. First off, no one is stocking backup because of short shelf lives and limited supply to begin with.  Second,  It would be too confusing especially since J&J only required one shot while Moderna and Pfizer requires two.  Thirdly, J&J does not require freezing.  So it would make no sense for those using J&J to also use the other two that require freezing in addition to having to worry about setting up second appointments.  Note the place I went to to get mine, only vaccinated with Moderna.  Had Moderna been stopped, I would have been out of luck. 

You have your facts wrong about the things you said.  Stopping the vaccine prevented many people from getting vaccinated on time, as they were scheduled.  Of course, some people may have been lucky to get other appts quickly.  But how many couldn't?  The government seems to have made no calculation of this issue or if they did, didn't care or think it was important enough. They "followed the science" but did not use any common sense.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1303 on: April 20, 2021, 10:03:38 pm »

I don't know why any places would stock and use more than one vaccine.

Because there are three options available and any one of the three could experience disruptions in supply due to manufacturing glitches or errors. This happened most recently with the J&J vaccine and required discarding millions of doses due to a manufacturing error.

https://www.reuters.com/April 19, 2021/J&J COVID-19 vaccine manufacturing halted at U.S. plant that had contamination issue

Balancing an inventory from two or more supplier options provides a cushion for any temporary disruption from a single source. It's basic sound inventory management 101.
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1304 on: April 20, 2021, 10:06:41 pm »

Note the place I went to to get mine, only vaccinated with Moderna.  Had Moderna been stopped, I would have been out of luck. 

That assumes that they wouldn't have been able to receive Pfizer vaccine thru reallocation of the vaccine supply. Why make such an assumption?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1305 on: April 20, 2021, 10:14:25 pm »

Because there are three options available and any one of the three could experience disruptions in supply due to manufacturing glitches or errors. This happened most recently with the J&J vaccine and required discarding millions of doses due to a manufacturing error.

https://www.reuters.com/April 19, 2021/J&J COVID-19 vaccine manufacturing halted at U.S. plant that had contamination issue

Balancing an inventory from two or more supplier options provides a cushion for any temporary disruption from a single source. It's basic sound inventory management 101.

You're guessing most places did this.   The place I went to, did not. They only handled Moderna.  It doesn't make sense to carry more than one vaccine, especially when Johnson is the only one that requires no second dose and no refrigeration, as Moderna and Pfizer do.   Additionally, it would make the shipments to each place more complicated because there would have to be coordination between the different manufacturers.  Can you imagine the mistakes that would occur when they shipped second doses of a different vaccine.  What a clusterf$$k. 

While I'm sure some localities were able to make up the difference because of central supply like in a big city, many smaller locations and facilities would not be able to until they received a replacement shipment of a different vaccine.  Appointments would be backlogged.  And I have to tell you that just setting up appointment if you haven't done it yet is quite frustrating.  Hopefully it will be better by the time you have to get yours.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1306 on: April 20, 2021, 10:14:58 pm »

You have your facts wrong about the things you said.

I can accept being wrong. It's happened plenty of times before in my life. Those experiences have tended to make me more cautious in what I say and how I say it, but still qualified as fallible without any doubt.

Just show me specifically what I asserted and in what context. Then show me some reliable evidence that disputes it. I'll make a full confession for you.
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1307 on: April 20, 2021, 10:19:29 pm »

You're guessing most places did this.   The place I went to, did not. They only handled Moderna.  It doesn't make sense to carry more than one vaccine, especially when Johnson is the only one that requires no second dose and no refrigeration, as Moderna and Pfizer do.   Additionally, it would make the shipments to each place more complicated because there would have to be coordination between the different manufacturers.  Can you imagine the mistakes that would occur when they shipped second doses of a different vaccine.  What a clusterf$$k. 

While I'm sure some localities were able to make up the difference because of central supply like in a big city, many smaller locations and facilities would not be able to until they received a replacement shipment of a different vaccine.  Appointments would be backlogged.  And I have to tell you that just setting up appointment if you haven't done it yet is quite frustrating.  Hopefully it will be better by the time you have to get yours.

All of which is based on your assumptions without any evidentiary support.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 10:26:58 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1308 on: April 20, 2021, 10:21:17 pm »

You're guessing most places did this.

No. I was answering your question "why any places would stock and use more than one vaccine". I gave one simple reason for why any places would do that for a vaccine or for anything else for that matter; to minimize any impact and provide an alternative source in the event of a supply disruption. It's a basic consideration in any properly organized inventory or distribution planning.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 10:36:02 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1309 on: April 20, 2021, 10:32:46 pm »

Additionally, it would make the shipments to each place more complicated because there would have to be coordination between the different manufacturers.

No coordination between manufacturers would be required. Each manufacturer simply receives an updated shipping order to balance where you want available inventory distributed. It isn't rocket science for anyone that has the slightest experience in managing distribution, including drop shipments if that's part of the plan.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1310 on: April 20, 2021, 10:35:58 pm »

Here's an NY Times article on what stopping J&J did.  While we were only discussing how it affects America, it also has had a deleterious effect in other countries as well setting many of them back since J&J was suppose to back up Astra Zeneca which apparently has some real problems of its own.  Also note that Dr. MArks called for a stop like Fauci said at least in this NY Times article which is opposite what you said.  Apparently, some of you got your facts wrong again. The article also confirms my concern that stopping it would fuel vaccination hesitancy.

Johnson & Johnson Vaccinations Paused After Rare Clotting Cases Emerge
Federal health officials called for a halt in the use of the company’s coronavirus vaccine while they study serious illnesses that developed in six American women.

“We are recommending a pause in the use of this vaccine out of an abundance of caution,” Dr. Peter Marks, the director of the Food and Drug Administration’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, and Dr. Anne Schuchat, the principal deputy director of the C.D.C., said in a joint statement. “Right now, these adverse events appear to be extremely rare.”

While they framed the move as a recommendation to health practitioners, the impact was immediate. By Tuesday evening, every state, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico had announced a pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine injections.

The same went for the U.S. military, federally run vaccination sites, and CVS and Walgreens, two pharmacy giants that participate in the federal program, officials said. Rite Aid, Walmart and Publix also announced that they had paused Johnson & Johnson injections.

Beyond American shores, Johnson & Johnson said it would delay the rollout of its vaccine in Europe, where several countries were poised to start administering it this week. South Africa, devastated by a more contagious variant of the virus that emerged there, also suspended use of the vaccine. Australia announced it would not purchase any doses.

The reaction prompted an intense debate among public health experts about whether guarding against such a rare disorder was worth the cost. Scores of vaccine appointments were canceled this week, and some public health officials feared that by fueling vaccine hesitancy and conspiracy theorists, the pause could prompt fewer Americans to get vaccinated — and expose them to far more risk.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1311 on: April 20, 2021, 10:39:08 pm »

Apparently, some of you got your facts wrong again.

Which facts are those?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1312 on: April 20, 2021, 10:46:14 pm »

No coordination between manufacturers would be required. Each manufacturer simply receives an updated shipping order to balance where you want available inventory distributed. It isn't rocket science for anyone that has the slightest experience in managing distribution, including drop shipments if that's part of the plan.
If you use Johnson, you don't need special freezers.  To switch to Moderna or Pfizer requires setting up a whole different procedure for double dose appointments as well as special refrigeration equipment.  You're making it seem like some food store switching from Oreos to ice cream. we're talking about distribution and outlets throughout all of America.  On the other hand, maybe Trump's Operation Warp Speed distribution is that good as you seem to think.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1313 on: April 20, 2021, 10:48:21 pm »

Which facts are those?
The facts I confirmed with the Times article. 

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1314 on: April 20, 2021, 10:52:45 pm »

The reaction prompted an intense debate among public health experts about whether guarding against such a rare disorder was worth the cost. Scores of vaccine appointments were canceled this week, and some public health officials feared that by fueling vaccine hesitancy and conspiracy theorists, the pause could prompt fewer Americans to get vaccinated — and expose them to far more risk.

Debate is a good thing, even healthy, including among public health experts. The other side of the debate, not mentioned above, is that for those that have been hesitant due to concern that safety has been compromised, rushed, or minimized in bringing multiple vaccines into use in record time, the recommended pause — and public information regarding the relatively very low risk and advisory on symptoms and treatment — is evidence that prudent safety precautions and measures are being taken and may provide reassurance or alleviation of those concerns.

In all likelihood though, I think that the majority of people who are currently hesitant about being vaccinated are not going to be very motivated to change their mind regardless of what they read in any current news and more likely will use any excuse that's handy to rationalize their preexisting beliefs.
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1315 on: April 20, 2021, 10:53:44 pm »

The facts I confirmed with the Times article.

Well, thanks for being so vague. Now, I can move on.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1316 on: April 20, 2021, 11:01:36 pm »

Debate is a good thing, even healthy, including among public health experts. The other side of the debate, not mentioned above, is that for those that have been hesitant due to concern that safety has been compromised, rushed, or minimized in bringing multiple vaccines into use in record time, the recommended pause — and public information regarding the relatively very low risk and advisory on symptoms and treatment — is evidence that prudent safety precautions and measures are being taken and may provide reassurance or alleviation of those concerns.

In all likelihood though, I think that the majority of people who are currently hesitant about being vaccinated are not going to be very motivated to change their mind regardless of what they read in any current news and more likely will use any excuse that's handy to rationalize their preexisting beliefs.
That's not what the experts said, and we should follow the experts, shouldn't we? 

Quote from the NY Times article in an earlier post:

The reaction prompted an intense debate among public health experts about whether guarding against such a rare disorder was worth the cost. Scores of vaccine appointments were canceled this week, and some public health officials feared that by fueling vaccine hesitancy and conspiracy theorists, the pause could prompt fewer Americans to get vaccinated — and expose them to far more risk.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1317 on: April 20, 2021, 11:20:53 pm »

That's not what the experts said, and we should follow the experts, shouldn't we? 

Yes. Listening to those that have more expertise than yourself, especially in highly complex fields, is generally a good idea. Airing differences of opinion among experts is also a good idea. It provides a broader perspective and is usually healthy and beneficial in informing those that ultimately have to make choices, judgements, and decisions on policies or in providing recommendations.

It's also helpful to recognize the tendency of many people to use any excuse that's handy to rationalize their preexisting beliefs. Some individuals have that inclination more so than others. It's best not to stereotype or generalize too broadly as individual people vary a great deal.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 12:08:11 am by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1318 on: April 21, 2021, 02:28:08 am »

it would make no sense for those using J&J to also use the other two that require freezing

If you use Johnson, you don't need special freezers.  To switch to Moderna or Pfizer requires... special refrigeration equipment.

I don't know where you're getting your assumptions regarding the cold chain requirements for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. I would guess it's most likely you get them where your other assumptions originate.

There are very few locations that have ultra-cold storage equipment for the mRNA vaccines and it is not neccessary for vaccination sites to have any special equipment for storage of their vaccine supplies from Pfizer and Moderna. The shipping containers used will retain the correct temperature using dry ice or other means during transport by FedEx and UPS. The Pfizer vaccine, which requires the colder ultra-cold storage, can be maintained in their unique shipping container for 30-days by replenishing the dry ice every 5-days and ships with one dry ice replenishment. It can then be stored in a conventional freezer for two-weeks, and a refrigerator for 5-days once unfrozen.

Moderna vaccine can be stored at normal refrigerator temperature for 30-days after removal from the shipping container. Your doctor, pharmacy, clinic, stadium, or wherever you get your vaccination from, does not have special equipment requirements as you have assumed.

More detailed instructions are below...

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/moderna/storage-summary.pdf

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/storage-summary.pdf
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1319 on: April 21, 2021, 02:42:44 am »

Also note that Dr. MArks called for a stop like Fauci said at least in this NY Times article which is opposite what you said.  Apparently, some of you got your facts wrong again.

“We are recommending a pause in the use of this vaccine out of an abundance of caution,” Dr. Peter Marks, the director of the Food and Drug Administration’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, and Dr. Anne Schuchat, the principal deputy director of the C.D.C., said in a joint statement."

Do you not even bother to read your own posts? How is "recommending a pause" the "opposite" of what nearly everyone has posted here — except for your own descriptions.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:03:36 am by TechTalk »
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