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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 471224 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15440 on: July 31, 2022, 07:38:14 am »

OK, I should have said ALMOST always. But I note that you are bringing things up, mostly, from 40-50 years ago. Irrelevant. And the few things that are contemporary involve fringe elements. But the right wing threats often involve ordinary citizens, parents of school children and home owners and suburanites, not the fringe. That's important because it tells us that among the right--that is MAGA--threats and violence are becoming accepted means of achieving your politican ends. As Jan 6 showed us.
What threats and acts of right-wing violence involve ordinary citizens, parents of school children and homeowners and suburbanites, not the fringe?  People arguing and demonstrating their concerns are protected by the constitution.  It's what democracy is about.  I think you're confusing political free speech with violence from the fringes on the left and right, which are unacceptable.  I think we both can agree with that. 

PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15441 on: July 31, 2022, 10:01:10 am »

What threats and acts of right-wing violence involve ordinary citizens, parents of school children and homeowners and suburbanites, not the fringe?  People arguing and demonstrating their concerns are protected by the constitution.  It's what democracy is about.  I think you're confusing political free speech with violence from the fringes on the left and right, which are unacceptable.  I think we both can agree with that.

From the Times: Across the country, parents have threatened board members and vandalized their homes. One board member scans his driveway before walking to his car.

From WaPo: Parents upset over things including mask mandates in schools, as well as officials’ efforts to introduce more diverse curriculums and bias trainings for teachers, have taken over school board meetings, shouting abuse, making threats and demanding resignations.

From Newsweek: A few arrests were made for unruly behavior or threats made in person at a school board meeting,
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15442 on: July 31, 2022, 10:28:02 am »

I think Simon Jenkins would prefer to throw the Ukrainians to the dogs than have to take a cold shower because there's no fuel to heat his potable water.  His argument basically is we should continue to do regular business with the Russians and stop any sanctions on them. 

It may be what YOU think, but it is NOT the tenet of the article nor what he and others have been saying for some time. Sanctions have not proved to be a deterrent to Russian aggression , if anything it’s hardened their resolve and Putin’s threats to resort to (tactical?) nuclear weapons shouldn’t be disbelieved.

Appeasement will not work. It didn’t save or change Crimea, it won’t work here.
If the West has any real intention of ‘saving’ Ukraine, there will inevitably be conflict.

I’d normally ignore your tedious trolling, but in this case, for the record, a lurker may actual read your synopsis and take it at face value. Hard to believe but possible, and I wouldn’t want your idiocy to go unchallenged - always best to read the original text.

—————————

Edit:
Russia is now actively perpetrating a tactic of targeting civilians in the most barbaric way imagineable. Latest reports* are of a prisoner being castrated ‘live’ and a video actively circulating, though it’s reported that the victim later died. Numerous reports of aggravated gang rapes often in front of the victim’s children, murder bordering on genocide … and much worse.

Economic deterrents have zero influence on these animals and the loss of circa 60,000 of their own troops even less. 

*
https://nypost.com/2022/07/29/ukrainian-pow-castrated-by-russians-in-sickening-video/
(your favourite unimpeachable news source).

« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 10:33:30 am by Manoli »
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15443 on: July 31, 2022, 10:29:13 am »

@Alan Klein
Back on my virtual ignore list.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15444 on: July 31, 2022, 10:34:39 am »

From the Times: Across the country, parents have threatened board members and vandalized their homes. One board member scans his driveway before walking to his car.

From WaPo: Parents upset over things including mask mandates in schools, as well as officials’ efforts to introduce more diverse curriculums and bias trainings for teachers, have taken over school board meetings, shouting abuse, making threats and demanding resignations.

From Newsweek: A few arrests were made for unruly behavior or threats made in person at a school board meeting,

if you stop reading the liberal press like the New York Times Washington Post and newsweek, and start reading the right press, you'll hear the same stories about crimes being committed from the left. But neither side is expressing what 98% of the people do which is non-criminal activity. Stop believing the hype.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15445 on: July 31, 2022, 10:38:04 am »

It may be what YOU think, but it is NOT the tenet of the article nor what he and others have been saying for some time. Sanctions have not proved to be a deterrent to Russian aggression , if anything it’s hardened their resolve and Putin’s threats to resort to (tactical?) nuclear weapons shouldn’t be disbelieved.

Appeasement will not work. It didn’t save or change Crimea, it won’t work here.
If the West has any real intention of ‘saving’ Ukraine, there will inevitably be conflict.

I’d normally ignore your tedious trolling, but in this case, for the record, a lurker may actual read your synopsis and take it at face value. Hard to believe but possible, and I wouldn’t want your idiocy to go unchallenged - always best to read the original text.

—————————

Edit:
Russia is now actively perpetrating a tactic of targeting civilians in the most barbaric way imagineable. Latest reports* are of a prisoner being castrated ‘live’ and a video actively circulating, though it’s reported that the victim later died. Numerous reports of aggravated gang rapes often in front of the victim’s children, murder bordering on genocide … and much worse.

Economic deterrents have zero influence on these animals and the loss of circa 60,000 of their own troops even less. 

*
https://nypost.com/2022/07/29/ukrainian-pow-castrated-by-russians-in-sickening-video/
(your favourite unimpeachable news source).


why is my post tedious trolling and yours aren't? In any case regardless of what you say I don't think this guy cares anything about the ukrainians in comparison to the loss of economic viability where he lives. That's what concerns him the most. 

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15446 on: July 31, 2022, 10:43:43 am »

why is my post tedious trolling and yours aren't?
Warning: Troll bait.
The easy answer to a question you Alan don't want answered by the group; this applies to trolls who are also morons:
"All morons hate it when you call them a moron." -J. D. Salinger
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15447 on: July 31, 2022, 10:45:11 am »

why is my post tedious trolling and yours aren't? ...

Because you have been repeatedly fact-checked on numerous topics so often that it's not possible to take anything you assert seriously.

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15448 on: July 31, 2022, 11:10:02 am »

Because you have been repeatedly fact-checked on numerous topics so often that it's not possible to take anything you assert seriously.
That fact has always been on his ignore list. A fact that only Alan among us ignores.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15449 on: July 31, 2022, 11:20:21 am »

...regardless of what you say I don't think...

That much is true.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15450 on: July 31, 2022, 11:31:25 am »

What threats and acts of right-wing violence... [Blah, Blah, Blah from the Minister of Propaganda for Right-wing Violence and Sedition]

Exhibit A of the kind of gutless coward that turns a blind eye to the violent invasion of his nation's capitol and the lies from the Liar-in-Chief that caused it. So afraid of admitting what actually occurred that he will make any excuse, no matter how obscene or absurd, and turn his back on his country — displaying a yellow streak a mile wide.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15451 on: July 31, 2022, 12:11:59 pm »

Among the coalition of violent right-wing antigovernment extremist groups that have coalesced around Trump and been incorporated into his takeover of the Republican Party are the sovereign citizen type of crazies and their offshoots. Included in that general category are the “constitutional sheriffs” nuts who believe that county sheriffs are the highest authority in the country. About 1 in 10 of the actual elected county sheriffs in the U.S. have bought into this crazy nonsense... and some are backing Trump and his BIG LIE with absurd investigations. Reuters Investigates has a story worth reading if you want to keep track of the tide of insanity that has been spreading across the U.S. over time.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-elections-michigan-investigation

Inside one far-right sheriff’s crusade to prove Trump’s bogus voter-fraud claims

In rural Michigan, county Sheriff Dar Leaf has teamed with a Trump-camp lawyer to chase the former president’s outlandish rigged-election theories. A member of a radical group of “constitutional sheriffs,” he’s now under investigation himself.

Reuters Investigates - Machine Politics / Peter Eisler and Nathan Layne - July 29, 2022

...Leaf is in the vanguard of the so-called “constitutional sheriffs” movement, which asserts that sheriffs, typically elected in counties, possess supreme law-enforcement power in their jurisdictions – exceeding that of state police, federal agencies and any other official, including the U.S. president. The movement’s most prominent group, the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, takes the extreme position that sheriffs can and should ignore any law they deem unconstitutional...

...In May, the association announced that it’s encouraging sheriffs to mount their own investigations into Trump’s 2020 election fraud claims. So far, Leaf is one of four known to have launched such probes. But the movement appears to be growing; the association says more than 300 of the nation’s 3,000 elected sheriffs have gone through its training programs since 2020.

In Michigan, Colorado, Arizona and other states, officials have blasted the constitutional sheriffs for undermining public faith in the integrity of elections and the local officials who run them....

...Leaf and his fellow constitutional sheriffs are part of a much broader effort within the pro-Trump right to gain control over the U.S. election system. In at least 15 states, candidates who embrace the false stolen-election narrative are campaigning for secretary of state, the top voting-administration office, in November’s elections, according to the States United Action, a non-partisan election integrity group. In Florida, the Republican governor has set up an election-police squad meant to ensure voting “integrity.” In Pennsylvania, Republican gubernatorial nominee Doug Mastriano, who backs Trump’s voter-fraud claims, is running on a platform that includes compelling all voters to re-register; making it easier for poll-watchers to challenge voters; and appointing a like-minded secretary of state to investigate and overturn elections.

“I could decertify every election machine in the state with the stroke of my pen, via my secretary of state,” Mastriano told an interviewer in March....

[Much more to this story via the link above]
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15452 on: July 31, 2022, 12:30:37 pm »

'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/28/'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections

NPR - Fresh Air / Terry Gross - July 28, 2022...

The movement to reinstate President Trump has gone far beyond him and now threatens the future of American elections. That's one of the takeaways of Sunday's New York Times Magazine article "How 'Stop The Steal' Captured The American Right" by my guest, Charles Homans. He tracks how Stop the Steal morphed into a movement geared toward future elections. Homans says scores of groups at the state and local levels, with the help of right-wing media figures and activists, are taking aim at the electoral system. He also tells the backstory of Stop the Steal and traces its roots in the Tea Party movement that started after President Obama's election. Some Tea Party leaders were active in trying to overturn the 2020 election. The Stop the Steal movement didn't succeed in reinstating Trump, but it did succeed on another level. Homans cites polls showing that only about one-fifth to one-quarter of the Republican electorate considers Biden's presidency legitimate.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15453 on: July 31, 2022, 12:34:14 pm »

Among the coalition of violent right-wing antigovernment extremist groups that have coalesced around Trump and been incorporated into his takeover of the Republican Party are the sovereign citizen type of crazies and their offshoots. Included in that general category are the “constitutional sheriffs” nuts who believe that county sheriffs are the highest authority in the country. About 1 in 10 of the actual elected county sheriffs in the U.S. have bought into this crazy nonsense... and some are backing Trump and his BIG LIE with absurd investigations. Reuters Investigates has a story worth reading if you want to keep track of the tide of insanity that has been spreading across the U.S. over time.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-elections-michigan-investigation

Inside one far-right sheriff’s crusade to prove Trump’s bogus voter-fraud claims

In rural Michigan, county Sheriff Dar Leaf has teamed with a Trump-camp lawyer to chase the former president’s outlandish rigged-election theories. A member of a radical group of “constitutional sheriffs,” he’s now under investigation himself.

Reuters Investigates - Machine Politics / Peter Eisler and Nathan Layne - July 29, 2022

...Leaf is in the vanguard of the so-called “constitutional sheriffs” movement, which asserts that sheriffs, typically elected in counties, possess supreme law-enforcement power in their jurisdictions – exceeding that of state police, federal agencies and any other official, including the U.S. president. The movement’s most prominent group, the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, takes the extreme position that sheriffs can and should ignore any law they deem unconstitutional...

...In May, the association announced that it’s encouraging sheriffs to mount their own investigations into Trump’s 2020 election fraud claims. So far, Leaf is one of four known to have launched such probes. But the movement appears to be growing; the association says more than 300 of the nation’s 3,000 elected sheriffs have gone through its training programs since 2020.

In Michigan, Colorado, Arizona and other states, officials have blasted the constitutional sheriffs for undermining public faith in the integrity of elections and the local officials who run them....

...Leaf and his fellow constitutional sheriffs are part of a much broader effort within the pro-Trump right to gain control over the U.S. election system. In at least 15 states, candidates who embrace the false stolen-election narrative are campaigning for secretary of state, the top voting-administration office, in November’s elections, according to the States United Action, a non-partisan election integrity group. In Florida, the Republican governor has set up an election-police squad meant to ensure voting “integrity.” In Pennsylvania, Republican gubernatorial nominee Doug Mastriano, who backs Trump’s voter-fraud claims, is running on a platform that includes compelling all voters to re-register; making it easier for poll-watchers to challenge voters; and appointing a like-minded secretary of state to investigate and overturn elections.

“I could decertify every election machine in the state with the stroke of my pen, via my secretary of state,” Mastriano told an interviewer in March....

[Much more to this story via the link above]

I wonder if they investigate voting districts where Trump was seen to have won. Somehow this confirms the prejudice I have against independent small-town law enforcement. That is, I'm sure there are decent ones but the system is probably set up to fail.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15454 on: July 31, 2022, 12:53:40 pm »

Election deniers are running to control voting. Here's how they've fared so far

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/29/election-deniers-secretary-of-state

NPR - July 29, 2022

Election officials and democracy experts are sounding the alarm, as Republicans who deny the 2020 election results have now moved closer to overseeing the voting process in five different states.

Arizona could become No. 6 on Tuesday, when GOP voters there will decide in that state's primary whether they want to nominate one of the two election deniers running for secretary of state.

"These are the people who set the rules, who count the votes, and ultimately who are responsible for defending the will of the people," said Joanna Lydgate, the CEO of States United Action, a nonpartisan organization that has been tracking election-denying candidates running for governor, attorney general and secretary of state nationwide. States United shared its most recent findings exclusively with NPR ahead of their release.

Election deniers running for secretary of state nominations in 2022 [Republican candidates in November]

Michigan

Won - Kristina Karamo: Pushed 2020 election conspiracy theories, and a conspiracy theory that it was actually antifa who attacked the Capitol on Jan. 6. Trump Endorsed

Indiana

Won - Diego Morales: Called the 2020 election "a scam."

New Mexico

Won - Audrey Trujillo: Shared a number of conspiracy theories about voter fraud on Twitter.

Nevada

Won - Jim Marchant: Said the 2020 election was stolen from him and Trump.

[Much more to this story via the link above]
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15455 on: July 31, 2022, 01:30:36 pm »

Election deniers are running to control voting. Here's how they've fared so far

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/29/election-deniers-secretary-of-state

NPR - July 29, 2022

Election officials and democracy experts are sounding the alarm, as Republicans who deny the 2020 election results have now moved closer to overseeing the voting process in five different states.

Arizona could become No. 6 on Tuesday, when GOP voters there will decide in that state's primary whether they want to nominate one of the two election deniers running for secretary of state.

"These are the people who set the rules, who count the votes, and ultimately who are responsible for defending the will of the people," said Joanna Lydgate, the CEO of States United Action, a nonpartisan organization that has been tracking election-denying candidates running for governor, attorney general and secretary of state nationwide. States United shared its most recent findings exclusively with NPR ahead of their release.

Election deniers running for secretary of state nominations in 2022 [Republican candidates in November]

Michigan

Won - Kristina Karamo: Pushed 2020 election conspiracy theories, and a conspiracy theory that it was actually antifa who attacked the Capitol on Jan. 6. Trump Endorsed

Indiana

Won - Diego Morales: Called the 2020 election "a scam."

New Mexico

Won - Audrey Trujillo: Shared a number of conspiracy theories about voter fraud on Twitter.

Nevada

Won - Jim Marchant: Said the 2020 election was stolen from him and Trump.

[Much more to this story via the link above]

In a cynical sense, you have to admire the con, don't you. You invent a phoney narrative about a rigged election. In this you are aided by the 30% fundamentalist American Taliban who think that Trump was sent by god. So if he loses, since he was backed by god, then the election must have been rigged. (But then why didn't god stop the rigging????)

Once the phoney rigged election narrative is accepted by enough people, even if they don't actually believe it, it's enough to accept the effect, you convince them to put into place people from your "own side". That very notion is contrary to democratic ideas. But since enough people now believe that the "other" side are crooks and liars, then the only alternative is to put people from "your side" into place.

The way to fix this for all time is to NOT allow the election process to be managed by partisan players, like many other countries do. But since everything the US does is the best possible way to do things, by fiat, then this never enters into the discussion.

I'm pessimistic for your country. A con this transparent and malodorous should not gain traction, but it has and is becoming more and more entrenched in some circles. And many politicians see that using this Trumpian base is the only way for them to win, so they court this thinking.

Do you have any politicians left who think in terms of public service or is it all one big game to attain the prize? Do they remember what the prize is for?

You are in danger of becoming a dysfunctional nation because of dog whistle culture war flash points, almost none of which ever actually affect anyone except by media hysteria. It's very sad to watch this.

In this spirit of pessimism, I think we should keep a watch out for these things: (1) criminalizing LGBT behaviour; it was illegal once, it could be again. It won't be difficult to rouse up people to support this, many are there already; (2) re-introduction of slavery, but it won't be called that, it will surface in different ways in a Jim Crow manner, bringing back confederate statues etc. because of, you know, history;  (3) removal of voting rights, but not by procedural methods, actual denial of voting privileges for certain people, muslims, unmarried women, etc., surfacing in non-obvious ways.  This is all wild-ass conjecture, of course, but I don't think these things are that far-fetched.

There was an article published in Macleans during the 2016 election campaign about a religious community in Indiana (I think) where the pastor said to the interviewer that he was against a woman's right to vote because, and get this, it was then possible for her to vote against her husband's election choice. This was said without irony. Scripture stated that a wife must support her husband and giving her an independent vote went against the word of god. Of course, what is left unsaid is that this is an interpretation of some biblical passage, but it is stated as factual. That group did not wear masks because god would not permit them to contract Covid.

A country that accepts mass murders in schools while doing almost nothing about it for mostly incoherent reasons is not in a good place.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15456 on: July 31, 2022, 01:38:16 pm »

Won - Audrey Trujillo: Shared a number of conspiracy theories about voter fraud on Twitter.
She won the primary to run against our Democrat for New Mexico Secretary of State but will certainly lose here. Yes, I'd put real money on such a bet.
She was endorsed by Michael Flynn & Steve Bannon; what more can I say?
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15457 on: July 31, 2022, 02:37:18 pm »

Stop believing the hype.

Stop turning a blind eye to violent domestic terrorists just because they support your party and candidate. Stop covering up and making excuses for violent domestic terrorists that invade your Capitol and undermine democracy. Stop being a blind fool.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15458 on: July 31, 2022, 03:21:23 pm »

Stop being a blind fool.

Not gonna happen.  Not for Alan and not for tens of millions of other old white men who "think" just like him.

The Republican Party is demographically doomed and they know it.  That's why all the malfeasance, IMHO.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #15459 on: July 31, 2022, 09:08:45 pm »

Johnson County sheriff claimed he got 200 tips of election fraud. A records request yielded only one

https://www.kcur.org/news/2022-07-28/johnson-county-sheriff-claimed-he-got-200-tips-of-election-fraud-a-sunshine-request-yielded-only-one

KCUR | By Steve Vockrodt - July 28, 2022

...With less than a week before a primary election in which voters will decide, among other things, whether Kansans continue to have a constitutional right to an abortion, Johnson County Sheriff Calvin Hayden, a Republican, has said several times that he’s investigating election fraud. But he’s explained little about the nature of his investigation.

He gave his most expansive remarks in Las Vegas earlier this month at a convention of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, a group that claims to have supreme authority in county government, above that of local, state and federal officials. The group has called for law enforcement to investigate the 2020 presidential election results due to election fraud, a claim that has been debunked repeatedly.

“In these meetings, people started talking about the election issues and I thought, yeah, yeah you know, OK, because I always took for granted that the elections were OK. Then the presidential election came and there was this big overturn and in Johnson County… our guys, our election staff, was done at 8:30 at night. It was done,” Hayden said at the convention.

“And President Trump did not carry our county — first time since 1914 that Johnson County didn’t vote Republican. Yeah, so it’s kinda interesting.”

Hayden, who is serving his second term as sheriff, referred to his own election victory in 2020.

“In fact, you’re looking at a guy — I got 260,000 votes and I got more than both presidential candidates and I’m way downballot,” Hayden said. “And that bothers me.”

Hayden didn’t tell the crowd that he ran unopposed in 2020, unlike the presidential candidates...

[More at Link Above... There are stories like this all over the country]
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