Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[TechTalk]

Assuming what you say is actually true...

I can see that you are an extremely charitable fellow!

[Alan Klein]

One of the reasons Democrat Senator Joe Manchin nixed the BBB bill is because of its energy components, tax credits, and anti-union aspects.  Here's what he said.

Manchin also opposed tax credits supporting the purchase of electric vehicles that would increase the incentive if the car is made by union workers. He signaled other concerns about the electric vehicle credits in a radio interview with West Virginia MetroNews on Monday.

"Why are we allowing someone that makes $500,000 to get a discount on an electric vehicle? That doesn't make any sense to me at all," Manchin said.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/21/democrats-climate-ambitions-manchin-525835

[Alan Klein]

I can see that you are an extremely charitable fellow!

After lying about gerrymandering in what was in that article, you really need to check yourself before calling others liars.  It's really getting old.  You're allowing yourself to be influenced by others here rather than using your own mind. 

[TechTalk]

"California's redistricting map is now drawn by an independent California Citizens Redistricting Commission consisting of 14 citizen members: 5 registered Democrats, 5 registered Republicans, and 4 with no party affiliation. The new map was approved unanimously by the commission.

One interesting challenge is that each district must not vary in population, as derived from the census, by more than one person from the average district population of 760,066. So no district can have less than 760,065 or more than 760,067. There are many other mandates that apply as well, but I imagine keeping districts within +/- one person is a daunting task as a starting point."

Every word of it is a fact... but don't let that slow you down any.

[TechTalk]

you really need to check yourself before calling others liars.

I haven't... but don't let that slow you down either.

[Alan Klein]

So? Maybe they're paying the actual real cost. Maybe you should be paying more.

Assuming what you say is actually true, I don't know where you get your numbers or whether it's even an apples to apples comparison, who says that paying less is good? Americans may just be passing on the subsidies and externalities to the next generation instead of maintaining a sustainable energy infrastructure. It didn't say anywhere on the Moses' tablets that cheap energy would be ours forever. I never got a signed contract at birth stating that. Did you?

Besides which, looking at these kinds of issues in the short term is lunacy. Energy production infrastructure is built and paid for on 20-50 year time horizons (my guess). What is the projected cost of renewables vs non-renewables in the year 2050? Unless you address all these issues, your arguments are pointless. And aside from all that, do you really believe that all the people working in these industries don't already take these things into account, and many more besides?

I'm not arguing we shouldn't use renewables.  I'm arguing that their real costs are being hidden from the public to prevent a negative reaction against them.  We are making important policy decisions based on bad data that's going to affect the future in very expensive ways.  We should be examining the real costs.  The government, environmentalists, and others are ignoring the ancillary costs for fossil fuels to back up renewables.  If those costs were really acknowledged so the public is aware, it may change spending as much on renewables. Maybe, nuclear would become more favored which could turn out to be a better option.  But sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the true costs of green is foolhardy. The Germans proved just how foolhardy that can be. 

[digitaldog]

After lying about gerrymandering in what was in that article, you really need to check yourself before calling others liars. 

He called who that when? Tell the truth!

[TechTalk]

...But sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the true costs of green is foolhardy. The Germans proved just how foolhardy that can be. 

But sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring that you haven't presented any evidence of the costs of any type of energy production is foolhardy. It's been shown just how foolhardy that can be. 

[Alan Klein]

"California's redistricting map is now drawn by an independent California Citizens Redistricting Commission consisting of 14 citizen members: 5 registered Democrats, 5 registered Republicans, and 4 with no party affiliation. The new map was approved unanimously by the commission.

One interesting challenge is that each district must not vary in population, as derived from the census, by more than one person from the average district population of 760,066. So no district can have less than 760,065 or more than 760,067. There are many other mandates that apply as well, but I imagine keeping districts within +/- one person is a daunting task as a starting point."

Every word of it is a fact... but don't let that slow you down any.

And you believe that California, with a two-thirds Democratic supermajority in the state legislature, is not influencing how the maps are being drawn.  It's just coincidence that the new maps will eliminate two Republicans from the House of Representatives?

Regarding the 760,066 per district.  That's a constitutional requirement for the entire country as each representative in the house of representative represents 760,066 if you divide the population of the USA by 435 representatives in the house.  (760,066 x 435 = 330,628,710 population of the US). There are some variables due to the smaller populated states because every state has to have at least one congressman. It's not the number of people per district.  It's where you draw the lines for each election district that matters.  That's where Gerrymandering becomes the issue. You really need to study this better than you have. 

[TechTalk]

Frankly, you don't seem to have any clue how redistricting maps are drawn in any state, including California. I posted this link earlier, but I'll post it again. You may find it helpful if you care to know.

https://ballotpedia.org/State-by-state_redistricting_procedures

[Alan Klein]

But sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring that you haven't presented any evidence of the costs of any type of energy production is foolhardy. It's been shown just how foolhardy that can be. 

Here are some articles showing why German costs have escalated because of the transition to renewables.  It's gotten so expensive, the German government is going to subsidize some of it next year by picking up a large part of the tax on renewable upgrade costs.  However, that won't lower the consumers' overall costs for electricity because they're going up so fast to pick up renewable construction, there will be overall increases next year regardless.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-slashes-renewable-energy-tax-due-to-soaring-prices/a-59517333
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/10/is-germany-making-too-much-renewable-energy/
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power

[Alan Klein]

Frankly, you don't seem to have any clue how redistricting maps are drawn in any state, including California. I posted this link earlier, but I'll post it again. You may find it helpful if you care to know.

https://ballotpedia.org/State-by-state_redistricting_procedures

They're drawn to favor the party in power in each state, Democrat or Republican.  That's gerrymandering.  Both parties are guilty of it.  Trying to argue as you have that Democrats' hands are clean, is just you playing favorites.

[LesPalenik]

The bottom line is renewable electricity is costing more.  A lot more.  It can't be whitewashed.

It used to be much more, but not anymore.
You'll have to look at the latest information. The solar-generated energy from the new solar panels is now much cheaper than just a few years ago. Cheaper than from coal and about the same as from natural gas.  The wind-generated power is even cheaper. Combined with large batteries to handle the peaks, the renewable power is quite economical now and it is still getting cheaper.

Solar, in particular, has cheapened at a blistering pace. Just 10 years ago, it was the most expensive option for building a new energy development. Since then, that cost has dropped by 90 percent, according to data from the Levelized Cost of Energy Report and as highlighted recently by Our World in Data. Utility-scale solar arrays are now the least costly option to build and operate. Wind power has also shown a dramatic decline—the lifetime costs of new wind farms dropped by 71 percent in the last decade.

The cost of building new renewables is becoming increasingly competitive with the cost of adding additional capacity to existing fossil fuel facilities. In the 2020 Lazard analysis, the lifetime costs (when including subsidies) of power are $31 per megawatt-hour for utility solar and $26 per megawatt-hour for wind. The cost of increasing capacity was $41 for coal and $28 for natural gas.

https://www.popsci.com/story/environment/cheap-renewable-energy-vs-fossil-fuels/

[PeterAit]

The fact is Germany which made 50% of their country renewables to lower cost, has seen the cost of electricity go up 2 1/2 fold. 

Germany did not go to renewables to lower costs. They did it to help stop the climate change/global warming that is threatening the wellbeing of the entire world. And if the intangible costs of fossil fuels were factored into the prices, then the renewable costs would look pretty good!

[TechTalk]

He called who that when? Tell the truth!

You know, if I were to take all of the assertions that Alan has made about me and put them into a single sentence, it would go something like this...

He's not an American, but a Kurd that lies and harbors horrible racist thoughts and who we won't trust going forward when he starts throwing statistics at us.

Well, I don't care. Let him have his fun.

[TechTalk]

Trying to argue as you have that Democrats' hands are clean, is just you playing favorites.

Pretending to reply to statements that I haven't made is just one of your methods to bait people into circular arguments.

As for me, I'm done with this one. Continue on if you'd like.

[Alan Klein]

It used to be much more, but not anymore.
You'll have to look at the latest information. The solar-generated energy from the new solar panels is now much cheaper than just a few years ago. Cheaper than from coal and about the same as from natural gas.  The wind-generated power is even cheaper. Combined with large batteries to handle the peaks, the renewable power is quite economical now and it is still getting cheaper.

https://www.popsci.com/story/environment/cheap-renewable-energy-vs-fossil-fuels/

I didn't argue solar-generated energy cannot be cheaper. It's the cost of fossil generated plants for backup that costs a lot.  In effect, we have double capacities as fossil sits sort of idle. 

Of course, some renewable are extremely expensive such as off-shore wind like they're building now in NYS.  Of course, they'll be overruns in cost as there always are in government projects. Plus they have to build new fossil fuel plants to back up the wind.  That cost was not mentioned by Governor Cuomo when he announced the wind plant project.  Nor did he mention that the cost surcharge that would be included in people's utility bills is hidden in the overall cost per KWH.  There won't be a separate breakout for that surcharge.  That way they can hide it from the public as costs escalate due to green energy production.  The whole thing is a lie. 

[Manoli]

The bottom line is that scientists dealt a crooked hand with J&J.  They deceived the public about its effectiveness.   Their oversight was deficient. They allowed a bad product to be fostered on an ignorant  public killing a lot of people. 

J&J and AstraZeneca are essentially the same vaccine. 50,000,000 in the UK received the AstraZeneca vaccine ( a 2-dose course v the single shot of the J&J vaccine) . Of the 50 million around 70 are believed to have died and of those, only 17 died from blood clots arising from the vaccination. In the EU, vaccination was temporarily halted and then resumed but only for those below 60 years of age. It’s reasonably safe to assume that there’s at least another 50,000,000 on top of the UK figure. The US death toll seems to match the UK percentages.

17 dead out of 50 million. and the kink in the armour has probably been discovered:
Covid: Trigger of rare blood clots with AstraZeneca jab found by scientists

The above is but one example in a sea of many why you should be banned - for wilful, deliberate and persistent misinformation. I’ll leave aside your racist tendencies for the moment.

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I was accused of lying about how J&J vaccine killed people.  That's the truth and you can see my article above.  So Andrew lied.  Yet you don't seem concerned about his lies, distortion,s and personal attacks.  You don't seem to acknowledge your poorly chosen and inaccurate comments but only see them in others.

You need to spend some time with a good dictionary and learn the difference between lying, falsification and misrepresentation, at least as a start.


--

Opinions are not a reason to be banned from this site. But personal attacks like you make are and I've complained to the owners about your continuing personal attacks and insults.

Yours are often NOT opinions, but blatant falsifications and obfuscations. Very much a reason why you certainly deserve to be banned.

[Alan Klein]

The other major cost is for servicing offshore wind.  Unlike land-based fossil fuel where you can have repairmen stationed at the site or travel there by a service van, offshore requires boats and helicopters to get servicemen out there to maintain the equipment, as well as construct it.  Additionally, their labor rates will be higher because of where they're working and the additional dangers involved.  How much does a helicopter pilot get nowadays?

[Peter McLennan]

Alan, you'd better get used to paying more for things like energy.  It's just a sensible policy if you want a better life for everyone.  The Germans have learned that, and they have arguably a better life than Americans. 

Americans pay some of the lowest prices in the western world for vehicle fuel. Americans also have some of the worst-maintained roads in the western world -- a sure sign of poor governance, formerly the sole province of the third world and TinPot dictatorships. If you want to fix the potholes, you're going to have to pony up. 

Same thing for renewables.  It's gonna cost us all more, even you, but it's worth it.  Just ask the younger generations.