Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[digitaldog]

That's my point.  The greenies promised us cheaper electric costs with renewables.  Why doesn't the press talk about these higher costs and stop misinforming the public? (That's a rhetorical question.)

Prove your point.
What and who specifically are “the greenies” and when and where did they promise this?
Attempt verifiable facts and specific data or again, “everyone” will jump on you again, just like Frans.
You can of course just STFU.
I predict you'll do neither of the above as history has shown here.

[LesPalenik]

That's my point.  The greenies promised us cheaper electric costs with renewables.  Why doesn't the press talk about these higher costs and stop misinforming the public? (That's a rhetorical question.)

They started to close their nuclear plants after the Fukashima disaster. Knowing well that the renewable plants were more expensive, they just didn't want to take the risks with the nuclear plants. The new solar farms should be more economical than the first generation solar plants. Germany has also too many bureaucratic rules when constructing any new buildings or other infrastructure. That increases the cost as well. It is happening now also with the new Tesla car factory in Berlin.
 

[Alan Klein]

Here we go again.  Democrats gerrymandering to assure their power.

California’s new congressional map boosts Democrats
California has a new congressional map, and the lines bolster Democrats' uphill quest to maintain their minuscule House majority.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/21/california-redistricting-midterms-525815

[digitaldog]

Peter, Why do you and Andrew always feel this need to attack people personally when you disagree with them?  I don't call you an idiot for your beliefs.
facts

You have this odd habit of asking questions of others, when your posting history and agenda show/prove, you have no desire or ability to accept any answer. No need to ask.
A great republican wrote:
"[No man has the] right to mislead others, who have less access to history, and less leisure to study it ... Thus substituting falsehood and deception for truthful evidence and fair argument." — Abraham Lincoln, "Cooper Union Address," 1860

More to the point, fewer words to ignore:
"Deceiving a fool is an exploit worthy of an intelligent man".-Giacomo Girolamo Casanova

[Alan Klein]

They started to close their nuclear plants after the Fukashima disaster. Knowing well that the renewable plants were more expensive, they just didn't want to take the risks with the nuclear plants. The new solar farms should be more economical than the first generation solar plants. Germany has also too many bureaucratic rules when constructing any new buildings or other infrastructure. That increases the cost as well. It is happening now also with the new Tesla car factory in Berlin.
 

The bottom line is renewable electricity is costing more.  A lot more.  It can't be whitewashed.

[digitaldog]

The bottom line is renewable electricity is costing more.  A lot more.  It can't be whitewashed.

The bottom line: Cherry-picking and inability to see the big picture (in a photography forum!):

Gasoline, diesel fuel, heating oil, natural gas, electricity and coal all cost more — in some cases much more — than they did a year ago. The explanation is not complicated*. Demand for energy — from motorists, truckers, airlines, shipping lines, manufacturers — rebounded from the pandemic slump much more quickly than production has been able to recover.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/11/10/energy-prices-inflation/

* it seems to be for some. That can't be whitewashed.🤫

[LesPalenik]

The bottom line is renewable electricity is costing more.  A lot more.  It can't be whitewashed.

As I said, the cost factor was for them secondary. When a nuclear plant goes bad, the human and monetary costs could be much higher.

[Peter McLennan]

Peter, Why do you and Andrew always feel this need to attack people personally when you disagree with them?  I don't call you an idiot for your beliefs.

I didn't call you an idiot.  I said you made idiotic statements.  There is a substantial difference.

Here's one example:

They want to be in charge of our lives and everything we do from birth to death.

Incorrect, unsupportable and unverifiable.  Hence, idiotic.

[digitaldog]

As I said, the cost factor was for them secondary. When a nuclear plant goes bad, the human and monetary costs could be much higher.

It is also worth mentioning that there is a new generation of smaller (safer?) nuclear power plants. Looks like France is moving even farther in that direction (France will have 56 working nuclear plants, generating 76% of her electricity.):

10 November 2021
Share
France will build new nuclear power reactors in order to maintain its energy security and to meet its climate change goals, President Emmanuel Macron said in an address to the nation yesterday. An official decision on the construction of further EPR reactors in the country is due shortly.

Seems it is even 'popular':
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/readings/french.html

[Robert Roaldi]

One of the main arguments from the greenies is that renewables save cost for energy.  So now you're admitting that was a lie.  Those were fake facts used to sell renewables. 
...

Are you making stuff up again? When did the "greenies" ever say that renewables would be cheaper? I don't recall that ever being used as an argument.

I have heard (and have made) the argument that non-renewable resources were incorrectly priced, their prices being kept artificially low by various methods alluded to previously, which I'm certain you did not read.

What have you got against a sustainable economy?

Of course we are going to pay more for energy in the future, since we are using up all the cheap sources. What did you think was going to happen?

[TechTalk]

Here we go again.  Democrats gerrymandering to assure their power.

California’s new congressional map boosts Democrats
California has a new congressional map, and the lines bolster Democrats' uphill quest to maintain their minuscule House majority.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/21/california-redistricting-midterms-525815

Here we go again. Alan jumping to conclusions to preserve his narrow view of the world.

California's redistricting map is now drawn by an independent California Citizens Redistricting Commission consisting of 14 citizen members: 5 registered Democrats, 5 registered Republicans, and 4 with no party affiliation. The new map was approved unanimously by the commission.

One interesting challenge is that each district must not vary in population, as derived from the census, by more than one person from the average district population of 760,066. So no district can have less than 760,065 or more than 760,067. There are many other mandates that apply as well, but I imagine keeping districts within +/- one person is a daunting task as a starting point.

[TechTalk]

You're failing to address the elephant in the room.  The fact is Germany which made 50% of their country renewables to lower cost, has seen the cost of electricity go up 2 1/2 fold.  Germans are paying so much more for electricity overall.  So while one can argue about the relative costs of EVs vs. fossil-fueled cars, the fact is overall energy costs for Germany have gone up.  So who cares if they save a little on EVs when the cost for electricity overall has raised their energy costs?  They're still paying more.  These are current costs and statistics too, not any from 2010.

You're failing to address the elephant in the room... the taxes and fees that Germany places on electricity consumption. The cost of purchasing power on the wholesale market, including profit margin, makes up 24% of German retail electricity prices.

The average residential/small business electricity cost in Germany is 31.94 cents per kilowatt hour.
• Taxes, levies, and surcharges - 16.4 cents per kilowatt hour
• Regulated grid fees - 7.8 cents per kilowatt hour
• Power Generation and distribution - 7.74 cents per kilowatt hour

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power

[TechTalk]

The bottom line is renewable electricity is costing more.  A lot more.  It can't be whitewashed.

What is the comparison cost? Without data, it's all just hot air on your part... or whitewash.

[TechTalk]

So now you're admitting that was a lie.

Well, that's one way for someone needing attention to get it. Not the best way, but one way.

[Alan Klein]

Here we go again. Alan jumping to conclusions to preserve his narrow view of the world.

California's redistricting map is now drawn by an independent California Citizens Redistricting Commission consisting of 14 citizen members: 5 registered Democrats, 5 registered Republicans, and 4 with no party affiliation. The new map was approved unanimously by the commission.

One interesting challenge is that each district must not vary in population, as derived from the census, by more than one person from the average district population of 760,066. So no district can have less than 760,065 or more than 760,067. There are many other mandates that apply as well, but I imagine keeping districts within +/- one person is a daunting task as a starting point.

Wishful thinking on your part.  The maps were redrawn to favor a loss of Republican seats, typical Gerrymandering procedures when Democrats are in power in their state legislatures.  Democrats are not immune to fixing maps in their favor, any more than Republicans are.

“This is the high end of what was a probable outcome for Democrats,” said Paul Mitchell, a political data analyst and owner of the firm Redistricting Partners. “This was definitely a good outcome for Democrats. Republicans have 11 current members — in these maps they should only be sending nine back to Congress in 2022.”

[digitaldog]

The maps were redrawn to favor a loss of Republican seats...

By an independent California Citizens Redistricting Commission consisting of 14 citizen members: 5 registered Democrats, 5 registered Republicans, and 4 with no party affiliation.
https://www.wedrawthelinesca.org/
As you love to say when it favors your assumptions: that's the bottom line.
In this case, it really is!

[Alan Klein]

You're failing to address the elephant in the room... the taxes and fees that Germany places on electricity consumption. The cost of purchasing power on the wholesale market, including profit margin, makes up 24% of German retail electricity prices.

The average residential/small business electricity cost in Germany is 31.94 cents per kilowatt hour.
• Taxes, levies, and surcharges - 16.4 cents per kilowatt hour
• Regulated grid fees - 7.8 cents per kilowatt hour
• Power Generation and distribution - 7.74 cents per kilowatt hour

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power

Taxes went up to offset the additional cost of green energy.  The bottom line is Germans now pay 2 1/2 times what (correction) what Americans pay.

We're already seeing similar higher costs here in America.  There are surcharges, mostly hidden in users' bills, in the cost people are paying for KWH.  Those costs are paying for things like the loss of revenue to the utility for homeowners' use of solar energy in their homes.  After all, fossil fuel plants still have to be built for maximum demand when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.  Those plants have to be maintained as well.  Associated costs have to get passed along.  So if you're not rich enough to install solar power in your homes, or an apartment dweller, you have to pay more for utility-provided power.  The poor and less wealthy are subsidizing the richer.  How's that fair social policy?

[digitaldog]

We're already seeing similar higher costs here in America. 

You were told the facts why all energy costs in America have been going up and as usual, ignored the facts provided by outside reference. Nothing new here.

There are surcharges, mostly hidden in users' bills, in the cost people are paying for KWH.

Hidden from you or everyone who isn't paying attention, or everyone (actually hidden)? Not a rhetorical question, an actual question you will never answer. 

Those costs are paying for things like the loss of revenue to the utility for homeowners' use of solar energy in their homes.

 
Rubbish; I generate more electricity than I use with my panels and it goes back to the grid. And it cost me a great deal to build.
Tell us about your energy generation. 

After all, fossil fuel plants still have to be built for maximum demand when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.

 
Rubbish.

The poor and less wealthy are subsidizing the richer.  How's that fair social policy?

1. Incorrect, unsupportable and unverifiable. Hence, idiotic. That's a great boiler plate that needs and will be repeated until you find a hobby instead of posting incorrect, unsupportable and unverifiable posts here. At least Frans has enough sense to disappear month or two before posting incorrect, unsupportable and unverifiable posts here.
2. You keep asking us questions who's answers you cannot understand or accept (or both). Why ask why?

[Robert Roaldi]

Taxes went up to offset the additional cost of green energy.  The bottom line is Germans now pay 2 1/2 times what (correction) what Americans pay.
...

So? Maybe they're paying the actual real cost. Maybe you should be paying more.

Assuming what you say is actually true, I don't know where you get your numbers or whether it's even an apples to apples comparison, who says that paying less is good? Americans may just be passing on the subsidies and externalities to the next generation instead of maintaining a sustainable energy infrastructure. It didn't say anywhere on the Moses' tablets that cheap energy would be ours forever. I never got a signed contract at birth stating that. Did you?

Besides which, looking at these kinds of issues in the short term is lunacy. Energy production infrastructure is built and paid for on 20-50 year time horizons (my guess). What is the projected cost of renewables vs non-renewables in the year 2050? Unless you address all these issues, your arguments are pointless. And aside from all that, do you really believe that all the people working in these industries don't already take these things into account, and many more besides?

[TechTalk]

Taxes went up to offset the additional cost of green energy.

What additional cost of green energy? Why do I get the impression that you have no idea what the costs of energy production are? — other than the fact that you don't present any costs.

https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2021/02/Price-of-electricity-new-renewables-vs-new-fossil