Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Frans Waterlander]

A study you can't produce. Got it.
Was the study on Fox or Breitbart or Newsmax?

If you had read my book, you'd know.

[digitaldog]

If you had read my book, you'd know.

So few have, at least if we look at Amazon's stats.
I prefer Stephen King and Amor Towles for fiction.
I know you need more book sales but really....
That you can't provide any outside references to back yourself up on EVs, nor provide in a forum called "The Art of Photography" any photo's, I'll continue to ignore your fictional naratives. 
See you back in a few months???

[Alan Klein]

If Tesla insists on non-standard connectors, why is that the country's problem.

Because the government shouldn't be playing favorites among companies, picking winners and losers.  That's the job of a free market.  What's happening here is that the deck is stacked against Tesla a non-unionized American company, where government funding favors other companies like unionized GM as a payback for their political support.  So public funding is being used to pay off political debts rather than helping the economy of the overall country.   So taxpayer funding is misallocated and wasted. 

That's why it's the country's problem.

[Frans Waterlander]

So few have, at least if we look at Amazon's stats.
I prefer Stephen King and Amor Towles for fiction.
I know you need more book sales but really....
That you can't provide any outside references to back yourself up on EVs, nor provide in a forum called "The Art of Photography" any photo's, I'll continue to ignore your fictional naratives. 
See you back in a few months???

The 167 page report is right here: https://dogandlemon.com/sites/default/files/the-emperors-new-car.pdf

[LesPalenik]

And that is total BS and misleading the masses. An extensive study showed that the total system for electric cars causes 55% more pollution and uses 8% more energy, before taking into account the frequent replacement of the batteries.

Frans, I don't know where you get your information but my sources show the exact opposite.

A new study by the universities of Exeter and Cambridge in the UK and Nijmegen in the Netherlands has concluded that electric cars lead to lower carbon emissions overall, even if electricity generation still relies on fossil fuels. The results are reported in the journal Nature Sustainability. Under current conditions, driving an electric car is better for the climate than conventional petrol cars in 95% of the world, the study finds. The only exceptions are countries such as Poland, where the electricity network is still mostly based on coal-fired power generation.

In countries with a heavily decarbonised system such as Sweden and France, which have large amounts of renewable and nuclear generating capacity, the average lifetime emissions from electric cars are up to 70% lower than petrol cars, while in the UK, which is rapidly phasing out coal but still has a reasonable amount of gas-fired power plants, emissions are around 30% lower.

As power systems around the world become less carbon-intensive, the advantages of EVs will continue to grow and even inefficient electric cars will be less emission-intensive than most new petrol cars in most countries. The study projects that by 2050, half of cars on the roads could be electric, leading to a reduction in global CO2 emissions of up to 1.5 gigatons per year, which is the same as the total current CO2 emissions of Russia.

It’s not just cars – electric heating options are more climate-friendly, too. The study found that electric household heat pumps also produce lower emissions than fossil-fuel alternatives in 95% of the world. Heat pumps could reduce global CO2 emissions in 2050 by up to 0.8 gigatons per year – roughly equal to Germany’s current annual emissions.

"The idea that electric vehicles or electric heat pumps could increase emissions is essentially a myth," said lead author Dr Florian Knobloch, from the University of Nijmegen. "We've seen a lot of discussion about this recently, with lots of disinformation going around. Here is a definitive study that can dispel those myths. We have run the numbers for all around the world, looking at a whole range of cars and heating systems.

"Taking into account emissions from manufacturing and ongoing energy use, it’s clear that we should encourage the switch to electric cars and household heat pumps without any regrets," Knobloch said.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=1268f3062320

[PeterAit]

And that is total BS and misleading the masses. An extensive study showed that the total system for electric cars causes 55% more pollution and uses 8% more energy, before taking into account the frequent replacement of the batteries.

Crapola. You have a link to that study? And the EPA says otherwise. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth5

[Frans Waterlander]

Crapola. You have a link to that study? And the EPA says otherwise. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth5

The 167 page report is right here: https://dogandlemon.com/sites/default/files/the-emperors-new-car.pdf

[Robert Roaldi]

Because the government shouldn't be playing favorites among companies, picking winners and losers.  That's the job of a free market.  What's happening here is that the deck is stacked against Tesla an American company, where government funding favors other companies like unionized GM as a payback for their political support.  So public funding is being used to pay off political debts rather than helping the economy of the overall country.   So taxpayer funding is misallocated and wasted. 

That's why it's the country's problem.

You might need to switch to decaf.

You're saying that the deck is stacked against Tesla, are you being serious?  I bet more companies would like to be in their position.

So look, once again, if you really believe these things you repeatedly write, then you must be dead against states giving tax concessions to Amazon to move to their area but you have repeatedly been in favour of that. Doesn't add up.

Besides, you might have missed my point. Standards have been drawn up for electrical connections. They've been around a while. Tesla chose their own connector design. Remember Beta vs VHS, or CF vs SD, we've been down this road already.

As for supporting other car companies with EVs, it might be possible to support that based on monopoly considerations. There has been lots of talk recently, and from you, about inflation and who is to blame. In all that talk we never hear about the possible effects of monopoly players in the economy charging whatever they feel like because there is no competition.

[LesPalenik]

The 167 page report is right here: https://dogandlemon.com/sites/default/files/the-emperors-new-car.pdf

That explains it, at least partially. The report was published in 2010 which means that the source information the author used was even more outdated.

[Alan Klein]

You might need to switch to decaf.

You're saying that the deck is stacked against Tesla, are you being serious?  I bet more companies would like to be in their position.

So look, once again, if you really believe these things you repeatedly write, then you must be dead against states giving tax concessions to Amazon to move to their area but you have repeatedly been in favour of that. Doesn't add up.

Besides, you might have missed my point. Standards have been drawn up for electrical connections. They've been around a while. Tesla chose their own connector design. Remember Beta vs VHS, or CF vs SD, we've been down this road already.

As for supporting other car companies with EVs, it might be possible to support that based on monopoly considerations. There has been lots of talk recently, and from you, about inflation and who is to blame. In all that talk we never hear about the possible effects of monopoly players in the economy charging whatever they feel like because there is no competition.

If money from the bill goes more to unionized concerns, then the bill is stacked against Tesla.  It doesn't matter Tesla's relative position in EVs in the world.  One could argue on the other hand that GM, which used to be the largest auto company in the world, is in a better position than Tesla.  They have deeper pockets and an envious, world-wide dealership position. Many more millions of customers have bought their products over the decades.  They have a bigger product line where they can apply EV technology providing more variety to the potential customers. 

Frankly, I'd rather be GM than Tesla for those reasons. Once they start producing more EVs, more people will favor their products than Teslas.  I'd rather buy a Cadillac or Buick EV than a Tesla.  Who knows where Tesla will be in five years.  What will Tesla be worth compared to a Buick EV?   What about service.  Where are Tesla's dealers when I need to reboot my computer and I can't connect it to wifi?

[TechTalk]

That explains it, at least partially. The report was published in 2010 which means that the source information the author used was even more outdated.

It's also full of half-assed assumptions and assertions regarding renewable energy that don't require reading past page 10.

[Alan Klein]

It's also full of half-assed assumptions and assertions regarding renewable energy that don't require reading past page 10.

You haven't explained how you're getting past Germany;s record of 2 1/2 times America cost for electricity since they went around 50% green. 

[TechTalk]

Why should I? Energy pricing and policy in Germany isn't my responsibility.

[LesPalenik]

And a cult it is, the worshipping of electric vehicles. Never mind that the total system - electricity generation and distribution, vehicle manufacturing, battery manufacturing and frequent replacement, etc. - requires more energy and causes more pollution as compared to gas powered vehicles.

Total BS! In considering the total system, you have to take into account the electricity operational costs, cost of producing a car, cost of disposing it and the life of the car.

As shown elsewhere, the efficiency of the vehicle propulsion system is far greater when the electricity from battery is applied directly to electric motors, especially when attached directly to the wheels.

Efficiency of a new vehicle production is inversely related to number of parts in that vehicle. In case of EV, you don't have to manufacture starter, fuel pump, exhaust, catalytic converter, spark plugs, ignition coil, oil filter, belts, radiator, all kinds of liquids and you can reduce many feet of pipes, hoses and electrical wires.

In the disposal of EV, you eliminate all the parts mentioned in the previous sentence. The most expensive part of used vehicle are the batteries and now we are able to recycle them.

- Ford Motor Company and Redwood Materials, a leading battery materials company, are collaborating to make electric vehicles more sustainable and affordable for Americans by localizing the complex supply chain network, creating recycling options for end-of-life vehicles, ramping lithium-ion recycling and increasing U.S. battery production
- Closing the loop ensures valuable materials that are used in battery production are recycled to be used again to drive down costs and reduce reliance on imports and mining of raw materials
- Creating a U.S. circular supply chain is a major step toward making battery electric vehicles sustainable, accessible and affordable for more Americans

Redwood’s recycling technology can recover, on average, more than 95% of the elements like nickel, cobalt, lithium and copper. These materials can be reused in a closed-loop with Redwood moving to produce anode copper foil and cathode active materials for future battery production. By using locally produced, recycled battery materials, Ford can drive down costs, increase battery materials supply and reduce its reliance on imports and mining of raw materials.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/09/22/ford-redwood-materials-battery-recycling.html

The EVs last much longer than ICE cars and consequently any pollution and waste during the production and final disposal can be amortized over much longer period, thus reducing the overall impact on the environment.

In addition, a new study found that vehicle emission decline is linked to decreased deaths, and thus saving $270B in USA.
Even more important is the fact that the new EVs with autonomous capabilities greatly reduce the accident rates and save thousands of lives.
 

[TechTalk]

If you had read my book, you'd know.

I've read your posts. Why on earth would I then have any desire to read your book? There is only so much time that I'm willing to waste.

[Alan Klein]

Why should I? Energy pricing and policy in Germany isn't my responsibility.

You have to be able to explain to Americans how you intend to handle these increases in electric costs.  The fact is Germany with 50% renewables, has seen their cost for electricity multiply atmospherically.  Speaking of sustainability, that isn't possible.  Imagine an American household currently paying let's say $200 a month going to $500 a month, or 2 1/2 times more.  That's an additional $3600 per year.  With inflation hitting now, that could be over $4000 more a year.  The average family can't afford that.  Also, Americans use more electricity.  Germans tend not to have air conditioning due to their colder climate.  So electric costs will be a higher part of their budgets. 

[TechTalk]

You have to...

No, actually I don't.

[Alan Klein]

Total BS! In considering the total system, you have to take into account the electricity operational costs, cost of producing a car, cost of disposing it and the life of the car.

As shown elsewhere, the efficiency of the vehicle propulsion system is far greater when the electricity from battery is applied directly to electric motors, especially when attached directly to the wheels.

Efficiency of a new vehicle production is inversely related to number of parts in that vehicle. In case of EV, you don't have to manufacture starter, fuel pump, exhaust, catalytic converter, spark plugs, ignition coil, oil filter, belts, radiator, all kinds of liquids and you can reduce many feet of pipes, hoses and electrical wires.

In the disposal of EV, you eliminate all the parts mentioned in the previous sentence. The most expensive part of used vehicle are the batteries and now we are able to recycle them.
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/09/22/ford-redwood-materials-battery-recycling.html

The EVs last much longer than ICE cars and consequently any pollution and waste during the production and final disposal can be amortized over much longer period, thus reducing the overall impact on the environment.

In addition, a new study found that vehicle emission decline is linked to decreased deaths, and thus saving $270B in USA.
Even more important is the fact that the new EVs with autonomous capabilities greatly reduce the accident rates and save thousands of lives.
 

I have no particular dog in the fight.  If EVs make sense to some people, the free market will determine that.  I'm just opposed to the government getting involved putting their thumb on the scale by offering rebates to buyers and providing taxpayer financing and giveaways to EV companies. 

[Alan Klein]

I've read your posts. Why on earth would I then have any desire to read your book? There is only so much time that I'm willing to waste.

Exactly my feelings when people here tell me to watch their recommended Youtube videos or listen to their podcasts.  Finally, we agree on something else.  It's been a while. 

[Alan Klein]

No, actually I don't.

Well that's exactly what's been going on in the biased news media.  They've only explained the benefits of renewables but not the damage and extra costs from them.