Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[LesPalenik]

Some people don't want government picking winners. But what if Tesla was a Chinese company? In that case, would all those so-called free marketeers want the US government to aid US manufacturers to catch up? Why would that be ok?

As it happens, right now Tesla is the only American company producing and delivering EVs in any meaningful quantity. GM had to stop production of their Bolt cars and Ford is having also some problems with their Mach-E. As Sandy Munro stated in several of his interviews, Chinese car makers are way ahead of American legacy car companies and on their way to invade US and European markets, so it would make lot of sense of promoting and highlighting Tesla advancements rather than trying to quash them. If you haven't seen Sandy's videos I highly recommend them, he is a no nonsense and practical engineer with a vast experience in building cars, airplanes and various consumer and industrial products. Here is his youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj--iMtToRO_cGG_fpmP5XQ

[Robert Roaldi]

As it happens, right now Tesla is the only American companies producing and delivering EVs in any meaningful quantity. GM had to stop production of their Bolt cars and Ford is having also some problems with their Mach-E. As Sandy Munro stated in several of his interviews, Chinese car makers are way ahead of American legacy car companies and on their way to invade US and European markets, so it would make lot of sense of promoting and highlighting Tesla advancements rather than trying to quash them. If you haven't seen Sandy's videos I highly recommend them, he is a no nonsense and practical engineer with a vast experience in building cars, airplanes and various consumer and industrial products. Here is his youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj--iMtToRO_cGG_fpmP5XQ

No argument from me. I'm just not seeing where anyone is trying quash Tesla.

[Frans Waterlander]

I was not aware of the Tesla/Musk cult.

And a cult it is, the worshipping of electric vehicles. Never mind that the total system - electricity generation and distribution, vehicle manufacturing, battery manufacturing and frequent replacement, etc. - requires more energy and causes more pollution as compared to gas powered vehicles.

[digitaldog]

Never mind that the total system - electricity generation and distribution, vehicle manufacturing, battery manufacturing and frequent replacement, etc. - requires more energy and causes more pollution as compared to gas powered vehicles.

Myth:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/are-electric-vehicles-really-better-for-the-climate-yes-heres-why/

Are Electric Vehicles Really Better for the Climate? Yes. Here’s Why

Myth exposed:
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-are-lower-than-gasoline-cars-experts-say.html

Experts broadly agree that electric vehicles create a lower carbon footprint over the course of their lifetime than do cars and trucks that use traditional, internal combustion engines.

Like all non expert knee jerk simplistic reactions, it is gray, not black and white and it is complicated (sorry if this is more difficult than making a photo  ) :
https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-electric-cars-really-better-for-the-environment/

Are Electric Cars Really Better for the Environment?
EVs produce fewer emissions overall than their gas-powered counterparts, but there are caveats

EVs offer far lower tailpipe emissions than conventional vehicles; more tornado's and increased climate change anyone who uses a camera?    Never mind the total system....., these disasters alone leads to more energy use and causes more pollution and death too!

[Alan Klein]

There is hardly anyone who doesn't believe in markets. When they work. However, there are people who object to trying to use them everywhere.

Your black/white stridence is tiring.

Democratas don't believe in free markets in general.  That's why they want to pass legislation that gives rebates for EV's. They want to engineer the economy to get the social results they favor.  They want to be in charge of our lives and everything we do from birth to death.  They love power.  They want to place their hands on everything and a loss of liberty for everyone

That's what makes Manchin's comments so profound.  He's the only one of 50 Democrat Senators except for possibly that lady senator, who wants to keep some semblance of free markets. 

[Alan Klein]

From one point of view, that position could be seen as self-serving. Now that Tesla doesn't need them (or can no longer use them), they don't want them in effect for other manufacturers.

Rebates for new technologies for which there is reason to provide public support are always going to be problematic: how long do you keep them around, when do you know they're no longer needed, how do you know they worked, is it unfair that some manufacturers are in a position to take better advantage than others, etc. What can be hidden from public view is the behind the scenes lobbying that put those rebates into effect. You can readily see how an entity could take advantage by lobbying for a temporary rebate for a technology in which they hold a head start. If the process is not transparent, no one really knows. I have no idea how EV rebates were put into effect in the US or for how long they were supposed to last.

Some people don't want government picking winners. But what if Tesla was a Chinese company? In that case, would all those so-called free marketeers want the US government to aid US manufacturers to catch up? Why would that be ok?

If a new company like Tesla could benefit from EV rebates but other manufacturers were slower in adapting to the change, removing rebates too early could be detrimental to them. Would that be fair? They had an existing infrastructure to convert, Tesla did not.

I don't know anything about this, and I can come up with some nuance with just 10 minutes' thought, which means it's probably at least 10 times more complex than I can imagine.

You're right about the complexity when the government tries to pick winners and losers.  Resources are misallocated.  That's why free-market decisions are better.  The buyers and sellers through millions of sales and transactions will innately create the best scenario for a market.  Capital will be used most effectively and not wasted to the same extent when government sticks its nose in.   It's why centrally planned markets like the Soviet Union were a disaster.  Bureaucrats can't predict what's going to happen and what's best.  But millions of transactions done by free people best determine supply and demand.  Governments screw it up.

[Alan Klein]

That's a needlessly loaded statement.

But you made a loaded statement against Les.

[Alan Klein]

No argument from me. I'm just not seeing where anyone is trying quash Tesla.

It hurts Tesla by providing government funding with the infrastructure and BBB bills to union manufacturers like GM but not for non-union labor at Tesla.    Biden even stated that in his meeting with GM.  He said how the government is going to provide all those "...high paying union jobs."

Here's an interesting question about the infrastructure bill.  Will it provide Tesla-type connectors at the public funding charging stations they're going to build?  Or only ones that work with union manufacturers like GM?  From what I read, they'll be level 2 charges meaning 25 miles for one hour of charging, pretty slow. That doesn't help Tesla's philosophy of fast charging that they'll have to pay for independently.  They also cannot be a priority plug.  How does that affect Tesla against let's say GM?

https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/16/22765438/biden-infrastructure-bill-electric-vehicle-ev-charging-level-2

[Alan Klein]

And a cult it is, the worshipping of electric vehicles. Never mind that the total system - electricity generation and distribution, vehicle manufacturing, battery manufacturing and frequent replacement, etc. - requires more energy and causes more pollution as compared to gas powered vehicles.

Germany's move to sustainability has also increased their cost for electricity to 2 1/2 times the average in America.  The problem is they need more fossil fuel plants to back up solar and wind when it doesn't operate because there's no practical way to store electricity when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.  What we really need is nuclear.  Unfortunately, there are too many NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) beliefs that prevent them from being built in the USA in the numbers we would need. 

[Frans Waterlander]

EVs offer far lower tailpipe emissions than conventional vehicles.

And that is total BS and misleading the masses. An extensive study showed that the total system for electric cars causes 55% more pollution and uses 8% more energy, before taking into account the frequent replacement of the batteries.

[Alan Klein]

And that is total BS and misleading the masses. An extensive study showed that the total system for electric cars causes 55% more pollution and uses 8% more energy, before taking into account the frequent replacement of the batteries.

Sustainability is about feeling good about yourself.  People like billionaire Bill Gates push it while flying to energy conferences in their own jet that require hundreds of gallons of fuel just to take off. 

[digitaldog]

An extensive study showed that the total system for electric cars causes 55% more pollution and uses 8% more energy, before taking into account the frequent replacement of the batteries.

A study you can't produce. Got it.
Was the study on Fox or Breitbart or Newsmax?

[Robert Roaldi]

Democratas don't believe in free markets in general.  ...

Please stop this nonsense.

[Robert Roaldi]

But you made a loaded statement against Les.

Where?

[Alan Klein]

Definitely, Manchin's running for president.  Middle of the road.  Fiscally conservative.   Socially liberal.  Tough as a president should be.  CAnnot be pushed around. Stalwart.  Even looks the part.  Yup.  He's running.

Manchin says he still sees himself as a Democrat even after thwarting Build Back Better plan
"I would like to hope that there are still Democrats that feel like I do. ... I'm socially -- I'm fiscally responsible and socially compassionate," he said. "Now, if there's no Democrats like that, then they'll have to push me wherever they want me."
"I'm not blaming anybody, I knew where they were, and I knew what they could and could not do. They just never realized it, because they figured surely to God we can move one person," Manchin said.
"Surely we can badger and beat one person up, surely we can get enough protesters to make that person uncomfortable enough they'll just say: 'Ok, I'll vote for anything, just quit.' Well guess what, I'm from West Virginia, I'm not from where they're from, and they can just beat the living crap out of people and think they'll be submissive. Period."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/20/politics/joe-manchin-democratic-party-build-back-better/index.html

[Robert Roaldi]

Sustainability is about feeling good about yourself.  ...

Horse sh*t.

Are you still caught up in that 1950s economy vs environment argument? The world has moved on. Without a sustainable environment, there will be NO economy.

And if to do so means that maybe we need to spend more out of pocket for energy generation, then maybe that's because that's what it costs. The lowest price doesn't always get you the best product. There is nothing in the constitution nor on Moses's tablets that guarantees cheap energy or cheap food or cheap cars forever. I don't know why people expect these things. Might be time to face reality.

[digitaldog]

Might be time to face reality.

Good suggestion, impossible however. It is impossible to puncture the unreality bubble surrounding a fact denier. We can only attempt to sway those with open minds.

[Robert Roaldi]

... People like billionaire Bill Gates push it while flying to energy conferences in their own jet that require hundreds of gallons of fuel just to take off.

What, are we still in high school?

[digitaldog]

What, are we still in high school?

I was wondering more about a graduation from high school, I've asked, I never got an answer. 

[Robert Roaldi]

It hurts Tesla by providing government funding with the infrastructure and BBB bills to union manufacturers like GM but not for non-union labor at Tesla.    Biden even stated that in his meeting with GM.  He said how the government is going to provide all those "...high paying union jobs."

Here's an interesting question about the infrastructure bill.  Will it provide Tesla-type connectors at the public funding charging stations they're going to build?  Or only ones that work with union manufacturers like GM?  From what I read, they'll be level 2 charges meaning 25 miles for one hour of charging, pretty slow. That doesn't help Tesla's philosophy of fast charging that they'll have to pay for independently.  They also cannot be a priority plug.  How does that affect Tesla against let's say GM?

https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/16/22765438/biden-infrastructure-bill-electric-vehicle-ev-charging-level-2

If Tesla insists on non-standard connectors, why is that the country's problem.