Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

Here's an opposing opinion on the subject, https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/10/21/trump-new-media-company-516650.

It's premature to bury the new company.  They haven't done anything yet but form.  The fact it's not called Trump Media, says a lot.  Let's assume this is a legitimate attempt to have a competitive outlet for Twitter and FB.  Of course, the latter both have huge head starts.  But competition is healthy in any industry and there are plenty of people who feel management of these companies have had their thumbs on the scales of fairness and open debate.  Can you imagine if there was only LuLa?

[Alan Klein]

An interesting story from Michael Moore's podcast Rumble, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-215-kafka-in-america-it-cant-happen-here-w-steven-donziger/id1490354763?i=1000538568437.

Have you ever heard of private prosecutions? I had not. Apparently a judge can assign a private entity to bring about a criminal prosecution. In this case, an oil company friendly judge assigned a law firm that is employed by Chevron to conduct the criminal prosecution of a legal activist who was part of an environmental lawsuit against Texaco (now owned by Chevron) in Ecuador. The blurb on the web site page contains more detail.

Moore isn't up to his usual embarrassing tricks in this piece (although in general I enjoy those but I know not everyone does) but instead lets the interviewee describe his own predicament. It has become a cliché to state that the judicial system is dominated by money, but here's a case when the criminal court system is placed at the disposal of a corporate entity. Does this sound ok to most people, because it would bother me.

Warning, it's a very long podcast, over an hour, but the description of the chronology and current status takes up the first 20 min or so, so if all you're interested are the facts of the case, you need only listen that far.

How can someone spend 800 days under house arrest?  Weren't there appeals?  What did those courts say?

[Alan Klein]

Inside aside that, hasn't the USA traditionally shied away from being called an empire?

America of course has enormous political, economic, and military influence.  But I believe empire refers to having control of the country politically as Great Britain did a couple of centuries ago.   Of course, one can argue that the 13 colonies took over the rest of the continent from the Indians and Mexicans.  But the former were always competing among themselves territorially.  We just continued the tradition and won.  Of course, many Mexicans still claim Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona, as theirs.  But didn't they conquer it from the warring Indians as well?  Speaking of Indians, just what did you Canadians do up north?  I didn't know they spoke French and English before you got there. 

[Alan Klein]

I'm not quoting 10-year-old axioms, and I must have poorly communicated my point, because I'm not making an argument for LIDAR in the slightest.  What I'm arguing is that Tesla's autonomous driving systems are not ready for prime time (regardless of the underlying technology) and that some regulatory skepticism is warranted.  Unlike you, I have no engineering background. However, I have *extensive* experience driving cars in extreme situations, some direct experience with Tesla's autonomous tech, and scads of experience in simulator training for a variety of racing circuits, and AI for cars to self-pilot just isn't there yet. It isn't.  (Which isn't to say that there aren't (lots of) instances where autonomous driving could be safer - the number of idiots that crash into the car right in front of them is a testament to that).

Again - I seem to have given the impression that I prefer a LIDAR or mixed system - I don't.  I don't care either way, and for the record I'm pretty damn impressed by what Tesla has accomplished.  I

Except for adaptive cruise control, I have little experience with auto-control cars.  But having driven for over fifty years, I too question AI reliability.  If I see a kid playing ball on the sidewalk, I keep an eye on the ball knowing if it mistakenly goes into the street, the kid is going to run after it not looking for traffic.  I'm a very defensive driver and watch for these things.  I'm sure many people do the same.  I just don't believe that AI does those things similarly or can ever learn to do them well enough.  Maybe on a major highway.  But not in the streets of a major city.

[Robert Roaldi]

How can someone spend 800 days under house arrest?  Weren't there appeals?  What did those courts say?

You didn't listen to it, did you? Those are precisely some of the questions being asked. As described, he's being railroaded in the USA, Soviet style. The issue is how does a criminal justice system allow this to happen.

[LesPalenik]

I'm not quoting 10-year-old axioms, and I must have poorly communicated my point, because I'm not making an argument for LIDAR in the slightest.  What I'm arguing is that Tesla's autonomous driving systems are not ready for prime time (regardless of the underlying technology) and that some regulatory skepticism is warranted.  Unlike you, I have no engineering background. However, I have *extensive* experience driving cars in extreme situations, some direct experience with Tesla's autonomous tech, and scads of experience in simulator training for a variety of racing circuits, and AI for cars to self-pilot just isn't there yet. It isn't.  (Which isn't to say that there aren't (lots of) instances where autonomous driving could be safer - the number of idiots that crash into the car right in front of them is a testament to that).

Again - I seem to have given the impression that I prefer a LIDAR or mixed system - I don't.  I don't care either way, and for the record I'm pretty damn impressed by what Tesla has accomplished. 

James, I apologize if I misunderstood you. We both agree that Tesla's FSD is the best autonomous system at this time.
At one time, the Lidar systems held high promise and to this date many manufacturers are including them in their cars.  Even Tesla used the Lidar sensor until May 2020.
It is Missy Cummings and quite a few others who don't keep up with the latest developments and are still convinced that Lidar systems are best and that optical recognition systems are inferior. And she is a university professor propagating such nonsense. Google Waymo cars were equipped until recently with 3 Lidars, and even that was not enough, so recently they added 4th Lidar to their already obscenely expensive cars (if I'm not mistaken, their modified Chrysler Pacifica cars cost $400,000 each).  Below is a link to an article that explains why Tesla and Comma.AI don't use Lidars anymore.

https://www.voltequity.com/article/why-lidar-is-doomed

[Alan Klein]

You didn't listen to it, did you? Those are precisely some of the questions being asked. As described, he's being railroaded in the USA, Soviet style. The issue is how does a criminal justice system allow this to happen.

You made a point that smeared the American jurisprudence system.  I'm asking you to defend your point by asking salient questions.  I don't have to watch your pre-selected biased podcast that "proves" your argument.  You defend it.  If you can.

[Alan Klein]

James, I apologize if I misunderstood you. We both agree that Tesla's FSD is the best autonomous system at this time.
At one time, the Lidar systems held high promise and to this date many manufacturers are including them in their cars.  Even Tesla used the Lidar sensor until May 2020.
It is Missy Cummings and quite a few others who don't keep up with the latest developments and are still convinced that Lidar systems are best and that optical recognition systems are inferior. And she is a university professor propagating such nonsense. Google Waymo cars were equipped until recently with 3 Lidars, and even that was not enough, so recently they added 4th Lidar to their already obscenely expensive cars (if I'm not mistaken, their modified Chrysler Pacifica cars cost $400,000 each).  Below is a link to an article that explains why Tesla and Comma.AI don't use Lidars anymore.

https://www.voltequity.com/article/why-lidar-is-doomed

Les, how do the various methods deal with the kid playing ball scenario I mentioned above to avoid running the kid over should he run out into the street chasing the ball between two parked cars? 

[James Clark]

Les, how do the various methods deal with the kid playing ball scenario I mentioned above to avoid running the kid over should he run out into the street chasing the ball between two parked cars?

Actually Alan, that's one of the areas that I *DO* think some of the autonomous systems are very good at even today - probably better than humans.  They can sense an object in the path of the car and hit the brakes faster than a human could.  Many cars have systems even today that operate in the infrared scale that watch for deer, kids etc. even at night when human eyes can't even see them.

[digitaldog]

You didn't listen to it, did you?

Busted again. No need to ask.
Remember what he does and just suggested: “lets assume”.

[James Clark]

James, I apologize if I misunderstood you.

No worries

We both agree that Tesla's FSD is the best autonomous system at this time.

I think that's indisputable, at least with regard to what we see on the streets right now.  I don't know enough to have an opinion on what others might be doing BTS, or the current state of autonomous alpha/beta tests from other parties.

At one time, the Lidar systems held high promise and to this date many manufacturers are including them in their cars.  Even Tesla used the Lidar sensor until May 2020.
It is Missy Cummings and quite a few others who don't keep up with the latest developments and are still convinced that Lidar systems are best and that optical recognition systems are inferior. And she is a university professor propagating such nonsense. Google Waymo cars were equipped until recently with 3 Lidars, and even that was not enough, so recently they added 4th Lidar to their already obscenely expensive cars (if I'm not mistaken, their modified Chrysler Pacifica cars cost $400,000 each).  Below is a link to an article that explains why Tesla and Comma.AI don't use Lidars anymore.

https://www.voltequity.com/article/why-lidar-is-doomed

Appreciate that - I'll give it a read.

[LesPalenik]

Les, how do the various methods deal with the kid playing ball scenario I mentioned above to avoid running the kid over should he run out into the street chasing the ball between two parked cars?

As James said, the Tesla autonomous system is in most cases better and faster than humans in recognizing people, animals and any objects on the road.
Below is a video demonstrating a test drive in a Tesla equipped with FSD 10 Beta (released in September 2021) on city streets with numerous pedestrians and cyclists crossing. The car steers and brakes by itself, the driver is just resting his hands on the steering wheel. Watch also the car screen on the bottom interpreting the situation and showing graphically the route, other cars on the road and any pedestrians crossing, even people on nearby sidewalks. The latest 10.2 Beta version has even better graphics and recognition capabilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f75Py1ie1k

[Robert Roaldi]

You made a point that smeared the American jurisprudence system.  I'm asking you to defend your point by asking salient questions.  I don't have to watch your pre-selected biased podcast that "proves" your argument.  You defend it.  If you can.

Get a grip, I did no such thing. I brought to your attention a disquieting story about a seeming abuse of the system that at the least needs to be exposed. If you don't want to, that's your problem.

[Robert Roaldi]

As James said, the Tesla autonomous system is in most cases better and faster than humans in recognizing people, animals and any objects on the road.
Below is a video demonstrating a test drive in a Tesla equipped with FSD 10 Beta (released in September 2021) on city streets with numerous pedestrians and cyclists crossing. The car steers and brakes by itself, the driver is just resting his hands on the steering wheel. Watch also the car screen on the bottom interpreting the situation and showing graphically the route, other cars on the road and any pedestrians crossing, even people on nearby sidewalks. The latest 10.2 Beta version has even better graphics and recognition capabilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f75Py1ie1k

There's an interesting podcast of Neil deGrasses Tyson's Star Talk interviewing Malcolm Gladwell about these very topics, https://www.startalkradio.net/show/ai-autonomous-vehicles-and-race-oh-my-with-malcolm-gladwell/. It's available on other platforms of course. The discussion goes beyond avoiding a kid with a ball. Avoiding that kid is only the minimum these systems need to do well.

[Alan Klein]

Get a grip, I did no such thing. I brought to your attention a disquieting story about a seeming abuse of the system that at the least needs to be exposed. If you don't want to, that's your problem.

Why do you believe a Michael Moore podcast?  He's an unstable left-wing nut who says a lot of silly and biased things.  It doesn't make sense that some rogue judge could put a person under house arrest for more than two years without an Appeals Court ruling it's OK.  Were there higher courts involved and what did they rule?  What did the podcast say on this if anything?  I'm not going to waste my time listening to a Michael Moore podcast. 

[Alan Klein]

As James said, the Tesla autonomous system is in most cases better and faster than humans in recognizing people, animals and any objects on the road.
Below is a video demonstrating a test drive in a Tesla equipped with FSD 10 Beta (released in September 2021) on city streets with numerous pedestrians and cyclists crossing. The car steers and brakes by itself, the driver is just resting his hands on the steering wheel. Watch also the car screen on the bottom interpreting the situation and showing graphically the route, other cars on the road and any pedestrians crossing, even people on nearby sidewalks. The latest 10.2 Beta version has even better graphics and recognition capabilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f75Py1ie1k

Sorry I wasn't clear on my point.  Sure, the AI can see the kid once he's on the street.  I was referring to the intuition that drivers have when they defensively see potential accidents which haven't yet unfolded.  When I see kids playing on the sidewalk, I slow down and keep an eye on what they're doing.  When I'm crossing an intersection, I look at the driver in the other car to see that he hasn't missed seeing me before he starts his turn.  Sometimes you see his eyes.  Sometimes you can see the way the car is edging up.  Can AI intuit these kinds of things like humans?   

[Robert Roaldi]

Why do you believe a Michael Moore podcast?  He's an unstable left-wing nut who says a lot of silly and biased things.  It doesn't make sense that some rogue judge could put a person under house arrest for more than two years without an Appeals Court ruling it's OK.  Were there higher courts involved and what did they rule?  What did the podcast say on this if anything?  I'm not going to waste my time listening to a Michael Moore podcast.

If you don't want to inform yourself about this situation, that's fine, I'm not going to waste my time spoon feeding you information that's freely available. It's your country's judicial system, if you don't think there's a problem with private corporations taking over criminal prosecutions, then don't listen to this story, no skin off my nose. Given your past reverence of all things freedom and constitution, I would have assumed you'd care more.

The story has nothing to do with Michael Moore, he is just the guy interviewing the person in question about the legal troubles. All of the reporting is done by the guy himself.

As for your sentence "It doesn't make sense that some rogue judge could put a person under house arrest for more than two years without an Appeals Court ruling it's OK." THAT is the problem. A rogue judge has done that and is getting away with it. Why don't you care about that?

[Robert Roaldi]

It's premature to bury the new company. ...

Theoretically, that's true. But given the Trumpster's track record, I wouldn't invest any of my own money in the venture. Will you? 

[Alan Klein]

As James said, the Tesla autonomous system is in most cases better and faster than humans in recognizing people, animals and any objects on the road.
Below is a video demonstrating a test drive in a Tesla equipped with FSD 10 Beta (released in September 2021) on city streets with numerous pedestrians and cyclists crossing. The car steers and brakes by itself, the driver is just resting his hands on the steering wheel. Watch also the car screen on the bottom interpreting the situation and showing graphically the route, other cars on the road and any pedestrians crossing, even people on nearby sidewalks. The latest 10.2 Beta version has even better graphics and recognition capabilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f75Py1ie1k

OK I looked at the demo video. At 3:03 the car went right through a pedestrian crossing without slowing down for the pedestrians waiting.  What if they suddenly ran out?   Even the driver noticed that.  After that, I lost all trust in the system and stopped watching.  Also, I notice the system can't see the eyes of pedestrians or drivers.  Can it see balls on sidewalks? I'm not impressed.  As long as everyone else is doing what they're suppose to, there's no problem. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Why do you believe a Michael Moore podcast?  He's an unstable left-wing nut who says a lot of silly and biased things. ...

I've heard this or variations of this many times and it always makes me laugh. Micheal Moore is not the 6 o'clock news. It's not his job to adhere to the fairness doctrine, not that it exists anymore anyway, not in any real way. He makes point of view movies, that's all. From what I've seen, he's far less problematic on that score that Tucker or that O'Reilly character before him.  They're on mass networks and present as journalists or commentators, terms which don't mean as much as they're meant to anymore. Singling Moore out in this way is truly funny.

As an aside, you need to curtail your tendency to call anyone with whom you don't agree an extremist or unstable or left-wing nut. After a while, the insults lose their sting.