Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[digitaldog]

Yet again, ignoring the facts and the written word.

Quote from: TechTalk on Today at 12:23:13 pm
America never owned the world auto market.

After WWII they did.  In America, most cars sold were American. 

Didn't someone here point out the fact that America isn't the world, just a small part of it?

[Alan Klein]

Powerful Democrats are talking about breaking up Facebook due to their "monopolistic" tendencies.  Neither Twitter nor Facebook practice "truth" only truth as they see it.  We really need the web open to all opinions.  Competition is good although I suspect Trump started his as a vehicle for his own political ambitions. 

Looks like Trump will make some money from it as well.  Twitter and FB must be wondering if they made the right move banning him.  What goes around comes around. 

Trump's social media deal ignites 350% gain in SPAC's shares
https://www.reuters.com/technology/trump-strikes-spac-deal-new-social-media-platform-shares-soar-2021-10-21/

[Alan Klein]

Not quite. The 1950s were the pinnacle of American automotive manufacturing and helped shape the United States into an economic superpower (from Wikipedia)
In 1950s, GM alone made over half of the cars on America’s roads. In 2020, GM owned just 17% of the automotive US market share. Ford had 15% and Chrysler about 12% of the market share.

https://theweek.com/articles/504619/rise-fall-general-motors

I remember the quote from that time: "As General Motors goes, so goes the nation." (Indeed, as befit the rise of the U.S. as an imperial power, "nation" was sometimes replaced with "world.").  Things have really changed. 
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/gm-goes-so-goes/

[digitaldog]

Looks like Trump will make some money from it as well.

Key word (key assumption, so many in one day) "will". And why would Trump do anything that didn't make him money; he needs it, look at the latest Forbes list, he's no longer on. 
Or he does something to up his ego.
Yeah, he's not the great and rich business man you think he is by a long shot. Case in point, more facts to ignore:

Donald Trump's luxury hotel in
Washington, D.C., received $3.7
million from foreign govern-
ments during his term in office,
according to federal documents
released by a House committee.
Still, the hotel lost $72 million
over those four years.
ABCNews.com

Looks like Trump will need to make some money from it as well.
 Let's recycle this old line:Now why do you keep brining up Trump? Biden is the president

[Alan Klein]

You're a good guy. I like you. That doesn't mean that I won't point out to you when you look like you're starting to hyperventilate. Think of it as something that a friendly person would bring to your attention.

P.S. I'm not keeping any score, so there aren't any points and no game being played.

You're getting too personal and sarcastic like some others here.  Why don't you address people's points instead of attacking them?

[Alan Klein]

Indeed, there are quite a few current developments which attract different opinions. Many debaters are not aware of the latest discoveries and blindly quote ten year old axioms. There is a lot of relevant information on the latest automotive and industrial breakthroughs on youtube and other platforms dispensed by very knowledgeable people who cover these developments in a timely manner and in a great detail. Here is a short list of the top such channels/youtubers - Tesla Daily, Dr. Knows It All, Munro Live, Now You Know, Warren Redlich, Electric Viking, Electrified, E for Electric. There are many other similar channels with slightly different topics and somewhat less competent reporters.

As to the "not unreasonable opinion on vehicles driving without Lidar", it might be useful to know that Google Waymo which in 2017 developed and started to sell their own brand of Lidar. called "Laser Bear Honeycomb",  has now abandoned and stopped selling this equipment. Google (or Alphabet) spent so far over $3.5B on the Waymo project which has been a total fiasco when compared to other competitors in this field. Meanwhile the Tesla company which initially also used Lidar, found out through extensive in-field experience that their Self Driving system is much more effective using pure vision rather than relying on a mix of different sensors. 

Les, you seem to be very knowledgeable about the industry.  Do you work in it or act in some advisory role? 

[digitaldog]

You're getting too personal and sarcastic like some others here.

You are free to move on if you can't take the heat, facts and stand up to your weak positions.

Why don't you address people's points instead of attacking them?

Actually, too many here are doing a really good job of attacking your ideas and writings. It isn't at all personal. You're just so often wrong and so often that is clearly illustrated by your peers (if I can be so kind).
What do we owe people who are wrong? What do we owe people who are so frequently wrong?

[LesPalenik]

Les, you seem to be very knowledgeable about the industry.  Do you work in it or act in some advisory role?

No, Alan, I'm just keenly interested in it - as an engineer, driver and investor.
I started to drive cars and army trucks when I was 10 (my father worked for a decade as a driving instructor - after the communists took away his store, and he let me drive on countless trips from his teaching days back to our home), one pillow under my bum, the other against my back and I still had to lift my head to see the road. Double clutching, downshifting and turning the large steering wheel without a power steering was not easy at that age, but I didn't know any better and also had a strict and uncompromising teacher.

For the last 15 years, I got resigned to driving cars with automatic transmission, but I still enjoy much more driving shift stick when I'm in Europe, both on Autobahn and on small country roads.

[Alan Klein]

No, Alan, I'm just keenly interested in it - as an engineer, driver and investor.
I started to drive cars and army trucks when I was 10 (my father worked for a decade as a driving instructor - after the communists took away his store, and he let me drive on countless trips from his teaching days back to our home), one pillow under my bum, the other against my back and I still had to lift my head to see the road. Double clutching, downshifting and turning the large steering wheel without a power steering was not easy at that age, but I didn't know any better and also had a strict and uncompromising teacher.

For the last 15 years, I got resigned to driving cars with automatic transmission, but I still enjoy much more driving shift stick when I'm in Europe, both on Autobahn and on small country roads.

The first car I bought was from another GI when I was stationed in Japan in 1965.  It was a 1948 Buick, Fluid-drive I think they called it.  It was one of the first semi-automatic shifts.  Something was wrong with it.  It wouldn't stay in third and kept slipping back into 2nd.  Of course, at that time, you couldn't go very fast on Japanese roads.  So 2nd was fine. 

Plus I only paid $200 for it.  Actually, my Japanese friend who worked on the base paid for it.  It was cheaper for him to let me buy it and put it in my name since he would have to pay Japanese import duties.  So I drove it a lot and when he used it, I had given him a note that stated he was my chauffeur and was allowed to drive it. 

We used to visit all his relatives who owned bars and restaurants where we'd get drunk for free and have a blast. When I got out of the service I bought a 1968 Datsun 2000 (now called Nissan), a two-seater, four-speed manual shift roadster with a convertible top. I paid $2800 for it, almost less than it costs to fill up my SUV today. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=datsun+2000&rlz=1C1PQCZ_enUS902US902&sxsrf=AOaemvIIWPd6Lhc672WV8rpOhk4bL9_r4g:1634869395036&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjy5q2M-9zzAhWEg-AKHTkuD9cQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=2133&bih=1174&dpr=0.9

[Peter McLennan]

Why don't you address people's points instead of attacking them?

We do. Your points are consistently addressed and challenged if need be.
For instance "America is not the world", which you conveniently ignore.

[TechTalk]

That's the way things work in the Washington swamp. 

There you go again...  No one cares about the Washington swamp anymore.
Swamp?  Who cares about swamps?

It's interesting to watch the way people rationalize. "No one cares about the Washington swamp anymore"—until you care.

You're happy to compare Trump and and Biden if you think that comparison somehow puts Trump in a more favorable light. As soon as someone points out that one of your Biden attacks looks pretty good compared to Trump, your response is...

It's not about Trump anymore

It's not about Trump.

[TechTalk]

You're getting too personal and sarcastic like some others here.  Why don't you address people's points instead of attacking them?

I have no interest in advice from you on posting etiquette.

[Robert Roaldi]

Looks like Trump will make some money from it as well.  Twitter and FB must be wondering if they made the right move banning him.  What goes around comes around. 

Trump's social media deal ignites 350% gain in SPAC's shares
https://www.reuters.com/technology/trump-strikes-spac-deal-new-social-media-platform-shares-soar-2021-10-21/

Here's an opposing opinion on the subject, https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/10/21/trump-new-media-company-516650.

[Robert Roaldi]

An interesting story from Michael Moore's podcast Rumble, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-215-kafka-in-america-it-cant-happen-here-w-steven-donziger/id1490354763?i=1000538568437.

Have you ever heard of private prosecutions? I had not. Apparently a judge can assign a private entity to bring about a criminal prosecution. In this case, an oil company friendly judge assigned a law firm that is employed by Chevron to conduct the criminal prosecution of a legal activist who was part of an environmental lawsuit against Texaco (now owned by Chevron) in Ecuador. The blurb on the web site page contains more detail.

Moore isn't up to his usual embarrassing tricks in this piece (although in general I enjoy those but I know not everyone does) but instead lets the interviewee describe his own predicament. It has become a cliché to state that the judicial system is dominated by money, but here's a case when the criminal court system is placed at the disposal of a corporate entity. Does this sound ok to most people, because it would bother me.

Warning, it's a very long podcast, over an hour, but the description of the chronology and current status takes up the first 20 min or so, so if all you're interested are the facts of the case, you need only listen that far.

[PeterAit]

Looks like Trump will make some money from it as well.  Twitter and FB must be wondering if they made the right move banning him.  What goes around comes around. 

Trump's social media deal ignites 350% gain in SPAC's shares
https://www.reuters.com/technology/trump-strikes-spac-deal-new-social-media-platform-shares-soar-2021-10-21/

I understand that Trump's social media venture will be called LieBook. They will have a skilled staff to vett posts and ban anyone who posts anything true.

[Robert Roaldi]

After WWII they did.  In America, most cars sold were American.  The point I made that you ignored was that the auto companies were not that concerned with competition from overseas because of their supremacy.  So their giveaways to the unions could be passed along to auto buyers.

Once overseas competition came to the fore, with their lower labor costs, American companies found themselves behind the eight ball with non-competitive costs and pricing.  So the companies and the UAW auto unions have been bailed out a couple of times by the American taxpayer most recently in 2009 and during the Covid downturn.  Promises by the auto unions to Biden to support him during the election encouraged him to select someone who is not a fan of non-union Tesla.  That's the way things work in the Washington swamp. 
https://www.darrinqualman.com/global-automobile-production/

Why is it that when things go well, it's because of good management who are then handsomely rewarded with performance bonuses. But when things go badly, then it's the unions who are to blame. Isn't that a little convenient?

When GM v1.0 went belly-up, union members/retirees lost significant amounts of pension and health benefits, but no managers had to pay their bonuses back. It wasn't the machinists and assembly line workers who decided to go ahead with models that people didn't want to buy. You don't go from having 50% of market share to essentially going belly-up in a generation because of good management.

[Robert Roaldi]

I understand that Trump's social media venture will be called LieBook. They will have a skilled staff to vett posts and ban anyone who posts anything true.

[Robert Roaldi]

... (Indeed, as befit the rise of the U.S. as an imperial power, "nation" was sometimes replaced with "world.").  ...

Inside aside that, hasn't the USA traditionally shied away from being called an empire?

[Alan Klein]

Why is it that when things go well, it's because of good management who are then handsomely rewarded with performance bonuses. But when things go badly, then it's the unions who are to blame. Isn't that a little convenient?

When GM v1.0 went belly-up, union members/retirees lost significant amounts of pension and health benefits, but no managers had to pay their bonuses back. It wasn't the machinists and assembly line workers who decided to go ahead with models that people didn't want to buy. You don't go from having 50% of market share to essentially going belly-up in a generation because of good management.

I agree that management should get much of the blame for the industry's problems. But the discussion was how unions might be influencing the selection of a government overseer who doesn't like non-union Tesla.  I wouldn't be surprised if corporate management from GM and Ford joined the UAW to push for anti-union Tesla governmental oversight.

Regarding bonuses for management and labor and bailouts, neither should have gotten them from the overburdened taxpayers.  The union members and the corporate managers and the stockholders made their beds.  They should sleep in them. 

[James Clark]

Indeed, there are quite a few current developments which attract different opinions. Many debaters are not aware of the latest discoveries and blindly quote ten year old axioms. There is a lot of relevant information on the latest automotive and industrial breakthroughs on youtube and other platforms dispensed by very knowledgeable people who cover these developments in a timely manner and in a great detail. Here is a short list of the top such channels/youtubers - Tesla Daily, Dr. Knows It All, Munro Live, Now You Know, Warren Redlich, Electric Viking, Electrified, E for Electric. There are many other similar channels with slightly different topics and somewhat less competent reporters.

I'm not quoting 10-year-old axioms, and I must have poorly communicated my point, because I'm not making an argument for LIDAR in the slightest.  What I'm arguing is that Tesla's autonomous driving systems are not ready for prime time (regardless of the underlying technology) and that some regulatory skepticism is warranted.  Unlike you, I have no engineering background. However, I have *extensive* experience driving cars in extreme situations, some direct experience with Tesla's autonomous tech, and scads of experience in simulator training for a variety of racing circuits, and AI for cars to self-pilot just isn't there yet. It isn't.  (Which isn't to say that there aren't (lots of) instances where autonomous driving could be safer - the number of idiots that crash into the car right in front of them is a testament to that).

As to the "not unreasonable opinion on vehicles driving without Lidar", it might be useful to know that Google Waymo which in 2017 developed and started to sell their own brand of Lidar. called "Laser Bear Honeycomb",  has now abandoned and stopped selling this equipment. Google (or Alphabet) spent so far over $3.5B on the Waymo project which has been a total fiasco when compared to other competitors in this field. Meanwhile the Tesla company which initially also used Lidar, found out through extensive in-field experience that their Self Driving system is much more effective using pure vision rather than relying on a mix of different sensors.

Again - I seem to have given the impression that I prefer a LIDAR or mixed system - I don't.  I don't care either way, and for the record I'm pretty damn impressed by what Tesla has accomplished.  I