Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[LesPalenik]

Here's an example of how stupid government happens.  Government hands on whatever you want for college tuition.  With so much money available, tuition goes up 4 times the inflation rate for everything else.  Colleges and universities increase their salaries hugely.  Administrators and professors have never made so much money.  Do you think that's why they're in favor of the government doing this and in fact eliminating student's debt on these loans?  I live about thirty minutes from Princeton University.  You should see the multi-million dollar homes around there.  Who do you think owns them?

Very true. The university tuitions in USA are completely out of line. And so are the salaries of administrators and professors. The lives of many students are ruined, since they are encouraged to take the loans, spend it freely and have fun. No wonder, Elizabeth Warren with her background as a law professor, pushes for forgiveness of the loans rather than for a reset of the salaries and tuition fees. I finished my university studies supported just with a small scholarship and supplemented with part-time jobs, yet was able to afford a car, travelled and skied every year and never was in a debt. Actually, at that time I never knew there was such a thing as a student loan.

[Alan Klein]

And what exactly is so magical about $12/hour. Why not $11 or $10.50 or $13? How many more people would be working if minimum wage was $10/hour? How many less would be working if minimum wage was $15/hour.

Seattle raised their minimum wage to $15/hour without hardly any affect on the employment of younger people. They saw a decrease of 1.6%...but could not tie this decrease to the wage adjustments. Now at $15/hour, how many more people have some money they can go out and spend on things like dinners...thus increasing demand which increases hiring people.

Well, that's the point. There is nothing magical about $12, or $15 or $8 or $35.  Government can't decide salaries. The minimum wage is an arbitrary amount pulled out of the air.   They can't know what the "right" salary is. That should be done by the free market.  When two people agree on what the employer wants to pay and what the employee wants to earn.  That's based on supply and demand like any product. That's the right value per hour.  Even for the same job, as Joe mentioned, pay varies from one part of the country to another.  Living in NYC requires a higher salary than in Georgia.  So those things effect where the pay comes out. 

The statistic I read was that many jobs were lost when they raise the minimum wage.  The guy who developed the statistics you mentioned is phony.  The world doesn't work that way.  Now it's possible that because Seattle cost so much to live, that salaries meet the minimum wage level already. 

But let me tell you something.  If you think minimum wage levels of $15 an hour are going to help Seattle bring back restaurants and other lower-paying jobs when we try to get the economy back, it ain't happening.  To increase minimum wages now when 900,000 jobs were lost this week and have been losing that amount and higher for almost every week for 10 months, that's not the way to spark the economy.  Businesses are going to have it tough enough to get going again.  Higher minimum wages aren't going to help.  Biden's shooting himself in the foot and the economy in the head. He's making a weak economy weaker.  All those waiters, bartenders, cooks, etc. aren't coming back.  What restaurant can afford to pay some kid $15 an hour ($600 a week, $31,000 a year plus $4000 in benefits or $35,000 a year to mop the floor and wash dishes?  Are you kidding?

[Alan Klein]

Very true. The university tuitions in USA are completely out of line. And so are the salaries of administrators and professors. The lives of many students are ruined, since they are encouraged to take the loans, spend it freely and have fun. No wonder, Elizabeth Warren with her background as a law professor, pushes for forgiveness of the loans rather than for a reset of the salaries and tuition fees. I finished my university studies supported just with a small scholarship and supplemented with part-time jobs, yet was able to afford a car, travelled and skied every year and never was in a debt. Actually, at that time I never knew there was such a thing as a student loan.

Not only do professors get huge salaries, but they're also tenured.
You were better off not knowing there were loans available.  Now you can buy your wife that fur coat she wants. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Freakonomics on the minimum wage, https://freakonomics.com/2011/11/18/does-raising-minimum-wage-increase-unemployment/.

[JoeKitchen]

Well, that's the point. There is nothing magical about $12, or $15 or $8 or $35.  Government can't decide salaries. The minimum wage is an arbitrary amount pulled out of the air.   They can't know what the "right" salary is. That should be done by the free market.  When two people agree on what the employer wants to pay and what the employee wants to earn.  That's based on supply and demand like any product. That's the right value per hour.  Even for the same job, as Joe mentioned, pay varies from one part of the country to another.  Living in NYC requires a higher salary than in Georgia.  So those things effect where the pay comes out. 

The statistic I read was that many jobs were lost when they raise the minimum wage.  The guy who developed the statistics you mentioned is phony.  The world doesn't work that way.  Now it's possible that because Seattle cost so much to live, that salaries meet the minimum wage level already. 

But let me tell you something.  If you think minimum wage levels of $15 an hour are going to help Seattle bring back restaurants and other lower-paying jobs when we try to get the economy back, it ain't happening.  To increase minimum wages now when 900,000 jobs were lost this week and have been losing that amount and higher for almost every week for 10 months, that's not the way to spark the economy.  Businesses are going to have it tough enough to get going again.  Higher minimum wages aren't going to help.  Biden's shooting himself in the foot and the economy in the head. He's making a weak economy weaker.  All those waiters, bartenders, cooks, etc. aren't coming back.  What restaurant can afford to pay some kid $15 an hour ($600 a week, $31,000 a year plus $4000 in benefits or $35,000 a year to mop the floor and wash dishes?  Are you kidding?

I remember reading back during the recession why it is automation has not taken off more in fast food.  After all, cooking robots and other technologies are within reach and not terribly difficult to manufacture.  The reason was because in order for these things to be economically viable, the average wage would need to hit something like $12 a hour, and since it was not there yet, no one would buy anything like this.  It is still cheaper to higher actual people, but who knows how long that is going to last. 

If this goes through, automation is going to jump real damn fast, along with unemployment. 

No worries from me though.  I raised my prices 10% across the board this year and no one is pushing back.  On top of that, unlike in 2009, I have no debts (other then a cheap mortgage) and my wife and I are in a great buying positions just biding our time for Biden to destroy the economy.  I am predicting some finger licking good deals in 6 to 9 months. 

[JoeKitchen]

Freakonomics on the minimum wage, https://freakonomics.com/2011/11/18/does-raising-minimum-wage-increase-unemployment/.

So you list a source that undercuts your point at the end it? 

Also, this does not point out how much the wage was increased by.  Was it 10%, 25%, 110%, like we are suggesting? 

[Alan Klein]

I remember reading back during the recession why it is automation has not taken off more in fast food.  After all, cooking robots and other technologies are within reach and not terribly difficult to manufacture.  The reason was because in order for these things to be economically viable, the average wage would need to hit something like $12 a hour, and since it was not there yet, no one would buy anything like this.  It is still cheaper to higher actual people, but who knows how long that is going to last. 

If this goes through, automation is going to jump real damn fast, along with unemployment. 

No worries from me though.  I raised my prices 10% across the board this year and no one is pushing back.  On top of that, unlike in 2009, I have no debts (other then a cheap mortgage) and my wife and I are in a great buying positions just biding our time for Biden to destroy the economy.  I am predicting some finger licking good deals in 6 to 9 months. 

Automation predates Covid in restaurants, especially fast food.  Instead of Mcdonald's having two or three order takers, they have one human and three kiosks.  That's been like that for a couple of years already. Also, what some smart owner's do, is use the guy who mops and cleans the toilets to bring the food tray to your table.  So even though it's a fast food place, you can sit down and wait for them to bring the order to you at a table rather than standing around waiting for them to call your number and getting the food yourself.  So it's like having a waiter.  That increases sales to pay for the additional labor costs.  But that takes the mopping job away from guys who aren't presentable to deliver the food.  So the place hires better people at $15 who look more presentable to mop and waiter. And the guy who had a job for $10 just mopping is now out of work totally. 

[Alan Klein]

So you list a source that undercuts your point at the end it? 

Also, this does not point out how much the wage was increased by.  Was it 10%, 25%, 110%, like we are suggesting? 

The article doesn't say that minimum wages were increasing because of government-mandated minimum wage levels?  Were there any of those there? The free market can raise minimum wages and increase employment at the same time.  For example, Apple opens a manufacturing plant in Indonesia.  They hire 5000 locals.  Of course, minimum wages will go up and unemployment will drop.  It's all supply and demand. As the demand for a product, in this case employees who will assemble cellphones go up, the cost for that product, labor,  goes up as well.  But if the government mandated higher wages, Apple could move its factory to another country and the 5000 jobs would be lost. 

[LesPalenik]

Not only do professors get huge salaries, but they're also tenured.
You were better off not knowing there were loans available.  Now you can buy your wife that fur coat she wants. 

Actually, I bought her a fur coat in the early eighties. Texas raccoon, light beige, very warm. But then in the nineties, the anti-fur extremists started to patrol the streets, so she gave it away. Most probably, the coat ended up somewhere in Eastern Europe, where the fur coats are still worn for the warmth and as a status symbol.

[chez]

Well, that's the point. There is nothing magical about $12, or $15 or $8 or $35.  Government can't decide salaries. The minimum wage is an arbitrary amount pulled out of the air.   They can't know what the "right" salary is. That should be done by the free market.  When two people agree on what the employer wants to pay and what the employee wants to earn.  That's based on supply and demand like any product. That's the right value per hour.  Even for the same job, as Joe mentioned, pay varies from one part of the country to another.  Living in NYC requires a higher salary than in Georgia.  So those things effect where the pay comes out. 

The statistic I read was that many jobs were lost when they raise the minimum wage.  The guy who developed the statistics you mentioned is phony.  The world doesn't work that way.  Now it's possible that because Seattle cost so much to live, that salaries meet the minimum wage level already. 

But let me tell you something.  If you think minimum wage levels of $15 an hour are going to help Seattle bring back restaurants and other lower-paying jobs when we try to get the economy back, it ain't happening.  To increase minimum wages now when 900,000 jobs were lost this week and have been losing that amount and higher for almost every week for 10 months, that's not the way to spark the economy.  Businesses are going to have it tough enough to get going again.  Higher minimum wages aren't going to help.  Biden's shooting himself in the foot and the economy in the head. He's making a weak economy weaker.  All those waiters, bartenders, cooks, etc. aren't coming back.  What restaurant can afford to pay some kid $15 an hour ($600 a week, $31,000 a year plus $4000 in benefits or $35,000 a year to mop the floor and wash dishes?  Are you kidding?

Well what person can provide for his family on $12/hour? No wonder there is so much crime...people have to survive and $12/hour...people are not surviving. Not only do these people have extremely low wage, they also most likely get bare minimum, if any, benefits...so they can't afford to see doctors or dentists etc... which becomes a huge burden on everyone involved.

You wonder why unions were formed back in the days...because companies were out to screw the worker. Remove minimum wage and we'll see the companies start back screwing the worker by limiting their weekly hours so they don't have to provide benefits or overtime etc...

If you leave it up to the market...the general worker is screwed as there is always someone desperate enough to work for peanuts leaving the guy with a family to feed shelling peanuts for life.

[JoeKitchen]

If I could put one word to what really disappoints me about the Biden administration, it would be mediocrity, and the fact that we are to look at the nothingness coming out of DC in awe. 

Perfect example is everything coming out of his administration when it comes to C-19.  Biden implements a national mask mandate in areas that already have mask mandates and this is somehow ground breaking.  Then, he, and his family, broke it almost instantly after implementing, but hey, he was celebrating.  Glad to know what excuse to use from now on.  He also wants to implement 1M doses of the vaccine a day, which sounds ambitious, but not so much when you read we were already averaging 912K a day.  Then when asked today if he was shooting too low, replied "Give me a break!  C'mon Man!" 

It really seems as though we are falling right back into the common political grift that instead of shooting for the stars and, albeit never reaching them, getting close, we should instead shoot for the plains and when we inevitably hit the hills claim victory. 

As a non-baby boomer, it disappoints me that the people who grow up doing "the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard" have given us a representative of their generation that is as about inspiring as the first guy who thought to deep fry pickles. 

[chez]

Not only do professors get huge salaries, but they're also tenured.
You were better off not knowing there were loans available.  Now you can buy your wife that fur coat she wants. 

Do you really believe professors make huge salaries in the big scheme of things? Compared to what?

I just looked up the UBC average wage for a tenure faculty member:  $114,457. I'd hate to think how you feel about my salary before I retired.

[JoeKitchen]

Well what person can provide for his family on $12/hour? No wonder there is so much crime...people have to survive and $12/hour...people are not surviving. Not only do these people have extremely low wage, they also most likely get bare minimum, if any, benefits...so they can't afford to see doctors or dentists etc... which becomes a huge burden on everyone involved.

You wonder why unions were formed back in the days...because companies were out to screw the worker. Remove minimum wage and we'll see the companies start back screwing the worker by limiting their weekly hours so they don't have to provide benefits or overtime etc...

If you leave it up to the market...the general worker is screwed as there is always someone desperate enough to work for peanuts leaving the guy with a family to feed shelling peanuts for life.

If you need a living wage and are still making a minimum wage, you have made a series of bad life decisions.  That is your fault, not the market. 

These bad decisions could be:

Not finishing high school
Not developing a skill
Being a bad employee who gets fired often

Although there are a few more, if you happen to fall into one of the above, you will be one of the first persons fired when the minimum wage is increased.  I guarantee it, because that is exactly what I would do if I suddenly needed to pay my assistants double.  Many would no longer be assisting me and I would become highly selective. 


PS. I work in an extremely market driven industry with no standards on pay that is heavily flooded with more photographers that what is needed.  I am able to demand very high fees.  I am skilled, know my worth, am not afraid to ask for it, and have enough sense to leave a bad deal on the table when I see one.  I also go out of my way to explain how to operate a photography business to new guys.  Some listen and succeed.  Some dont and take any project that comes their way, get stuck in a race to the bottom, are not working to improve their skills (on both photography and business) and go under due to their own fault.  It's no different anywhere else. 

[James Clark]

If you need a living wage and are still making a minimum wage, you have made a series of bad life decisions.  That is your fault, not the market. 

These bad decisions could be:

Not finishing high school
Not developing a skill
Being a bad employee who gets fired often

Although there are a few more, if you happen to fall into one of the above, you will be one of the first persons fired when the minimum wage is increased.  I guarantee it, because that is exactly what I would do if I suddenly needed to pay my assistants double.  Many would no longer be assisting me and I would become highly selective.

You are so goddamn oblivious. 

[JoeKitchen]

You are so goddamn oblivious.

Thanks, and God should really be capitalized here. 

[John Camp]

There are quite a few studies that demonstrate conclusively that raising the minimum wage (within reason, and $15 is within reason, IMHO) has no effect on employment numbers, but does have an effect on poverty levels -- it reduces them. I would cite them here but it's so commonly understood within the modern economic community that you can look them up yourselves, if you truly doubt it.

As a devoted free-marketer, I agree with Alan that corporations should be allowed to pay their executives whatever the stockholders will put up with. I think it's also the obligation of those lucky people to pay a fair share of taxes on a scale graduated by income. I don't think 80% (state and federal combined) would be too much for the top tier, and I also think that capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income. That would go a long way toward such conservative goals as strengthening the dollar, reducing the deficit and improving America's infrastructure. And since most significant tax cheating takes place at the top of the income brackets, I believe the IRS should be greatly strengthened and that people caught deliberately cheating should face mandatory jail sentences.

[Alan Klein]

Well what person can provide for his family on $12/hour? No wonder there is so much crime...people have to survive and $12/hour...people are not surviving. Not only do these people have extremely low wage, they also most likely get bare minimum, if any, benefits...so they can't afford to see doctors or dentists etc... which becomes a huge burden on everyone involved.

You wonder why unions were formed back in the days...because companies were out to screw the worker. Remove minimum wage and we'll see the companies start back screwing the worker by limiting their weekly hours so they don't have to provide benefits or overtime etc...

If you leave it up to the market...the general worker is screwed as there is always someone desperate enough to work for peanuts leaving the guy with a family to feed shelling peanuts for life.

First, you're insulting poor people by claiming lack of wealth turns them into criminals.  Second, would a thief making $12 an hour suddenly become honest at $15 an hour? I doubt that. And how do you explain why rich people steal? In any case, isn't more likely that a person who loses his job because the minimum wage level eliminates his job is going to be more likely to steal to get money so he can eat?  I don't think too many people who earn $12 an hour are robbing banks on their time off. 

But you're right that when someone loses his job, he becomes a burden on others -  with his family, or friends, or the rest of us through higher taxes.  The best way to deal with this is to keep the government out of it from impeding a dynamic economy.  A vibrant economy brings more wealth to everyone.  America has proven that over the centuries.  More jobs at higher pay occur organically through free markets with minimum government interference.  Once the government gets involves, it gums up the natural processes causing more job loss, less pay, and less wealth for everyone including the poor.  If there are issues with medical care, then deal with those differences, as we do.  Obamacare, Medicare, food stamps, Medicaid, etc are programs that provide those services.  But raising minimum wages just gum up the works and make it worse. 

[jeremyrh]

Not only do professors get huge salaries, but they're also tenured.
You were better off not knowing there were loans available.  Now you can buy your wife that fur coat she wants. 

More fake facts. If you really want to know the salaries of Alan's local professorship, they can be found here:
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Princeton_University/Salary

[Alan Klein]

Do you really believe professors make huge salaries in the big scheme of things? Compared to what?

I just looked up the UBC average wage for a tenure faculty member:  $114,457. I'd hate to think how you feel about my salary before I retired.

Your analogy reminds me of the guy who drowned in a lake that had an average depth of 3 feet. 

The 10 Highest-Paid College Professors in the U.S
https://thebestschools.org/magazine/highest-paid-college-professors-america/

[Alan Klein]

There are quite a few studies that demonstrate conclusively that raising the minimum wage (within reason, and $15 is within reason, IMHO) has no effect on employment numbers, but does have an effect on poverty levels -- it reduces them. I would cite them here but it's so commonly understood within the modern economic community that you can look them up yourselves, if you truly doubt it.

As a devoted free-marketer, I agree with Alan that corporations should be allowed to pay their executives whatever the stockholders will put up with. I think it's also the obligation of those lucky people to pay a fair share of taxes on a scale graduated by income. I don't think 80% (state and federal combined) would be too much for the top tier, and I also think that capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income. That would go a long way toward such conservative goals as strengthening the dollar, reducing the deficit and improving America's infrastructure. And since most significant tax cheating takes place at the top of the income brackets, I believe the IRS should be greatly strengthened and that people caught deliberately cheating should face mandatory jail sentences.

Raising minimum wages will only help those who still keep their jobs, not the guy who was replaced with a kiosk.  I disagree no jobs are lost.  Of course, it's going to be different depending on how high the increase is.  Let's say a town loses 5 jobs with a $1 raise, 50 jobs with a $2 raise, and 500 jobs with a $3 raise. But there will be some loss even at low increases.  I'm surprised as a free-marketer, you don't see these outcomes.  Wouldnt it be better to deal with poverty and health issues separately?  Raising minimum wages only creates new and different issues we have to deal with without resolving the issues government claims raises will resolve.