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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 317918 times)

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14180 on: May 02, 2022, 11:46:13 pm »

New Oxford American Dictionary...

• insurrection: a violent uprising against an authority or government
• rebellion: an act of violent or open resistance to an established government or ruler; the action or process of resisting authority, control, or convention
• revolt: rise in rebellion, refuse to acknowledge someone or something as having authority
• revolution: a forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favor of a new system

• sedition: conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch

In an absurd effort to maintain a state of denial, numerous Trump cult members and others hypnotized by shiny gold objects have insisted that the insurrection we witnessed on January 6, 2021 was not a really real insurrection because no individual had been convicted on that specific charge. This despite the fact that we saw an insurrection occur on live television.

The January 6th insurrection, inside the nation's Capitol, was the result of the combined actions of a violent mob, not the actions of a single individual. That's clear and obvious to those that don't cover their eyes, ears, and minds out of ideological necessity, while leaving their mouth running or keyboards rattling.

Criminal prosecutions are a separate matter in which there are a multitude of considerations that determine with what crimes to charge individual persons. Among those considerations are how broadly, narrowly, or well a statute was written and how that may affect prosecution and defense arguments to a jury and trial and appeal judges. Another consideration are the penalties that apply with various statutes not the least of which would be the length of prison terms.

The U.S. federal statues covering treason, sedition, rebellion, and insurrection are contained in 18 U.S. Code Chapter 115. For example:

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection: Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy: If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

So... now we have the second guilty plea for seditious conspircy resulting from the January 6th insurrection. This is the more serious charge with double the potential prison sentence of an insurrection conviction.

The question is... will this mean that Trump's robots will give up the insistence that what happened on January 6th was merely a demonstration that became unruly and turned into a riot, comparable to many other riots we've seen before; and admit that what occurred on January 6th was far more serious than they've previously acknowledged, now that there are serious criminal convictions for sedition. I'm just having fun with you... of course they won't admit that! The ability to deny reality is boundless with Trump and his followers.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14181 on: May 04, 2022, 11:49:39 pm »

I'm not surprised that the most serious convictions have been under the Seditious Conspiracy statute rather than the Insurrection statute. The two are good examples of a well written statute and a poorly written one.

The Insurrection statute does not define what constitutes insurrection which makes it poorly written and a less desirable charge for a prosecutor. Some crimes are so commonly understood that they don't require definition within the statute — insurrection is not one of those crimes. Insurrection is not a common occurrence in the United States (not yet anyway). You can be sure that a defense lawyer would be grinding away at what constitutes and defines insurrection for hours on end until a jury's or judge's eyes were glazed over in linguistic minutia. Based on online comments I've seen, many ordinary citizens believe that insurrection means overthrow of the government — it doesn't.

On the other hand, the statute that immediately follows Insurrection in that chapter of U.S. code dealing with "treason, sedition, rebellion, and insurrection" — the Seditious Conspiracy statute — defines in detail what acts constitute a criminal offense under that law. So far, there are two guilty pleas that haven't even required going to trial. That's one sign that the law is so specific and well written that it is difficult to defend against by arguing over semantics. Additionally, it carries twice the maximum prison term compared to insurrection.

Personally, I'd like to see Congress rewrite the insurrection statute. In the meantime, I'd like to see many more of the January 6th insurrectionists charged with Seditious Conspiracy because there are a great many guilty of that crime as the statute is written. No... protest isn't a crime, nor is free speech, nor is any other phony distraction from the obvious insurrection that actually occurred on January 6th.

What happened was a mob action. The mob was made up of individuals that committed a variety of crimes during their insurrection for which they could be charged. I hope to see additional serious charges and penalties for those that disgraced democracy and rule of law, their country, and themselves.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14182 on: May 05, 2022, 03:14:03 am »

Some posts just don't age very well...

...While trespass and interrupting Congress in process are illegal, it's not sedition. Civil disobedience and complaining about the government have long histories in the US.

Oh please.  Those people weren't conspiring to overthrow the government of the United States.  I don't know how many times people interrupted hearings in Congress and then were led away by Capitol Police.   It even happened during one of Obama's State of the Union speeches in Congress.  Okay, this was a little worse.  But they were basically demonstrating and got unruly. They violated trespass laws, maybe assault, damage to government property, etc. but did not commit sedition.  I know you'd like to throw all republicans in jail for twenty years.  But your claims are specious.

...But to call it sedition is just silly and political.  That would never stand in court.

...Those who did that act should be prosecuted and sent away to prison for a long time.  However, that doesn't make this sedition. Nor does it violate any laws allowing people to demonstrate and petition the government for redress...

I answered this quote in an earlier post. Look it up.  What they did isn't seditionThere was no intent to overthrow the US government or seize property by force.  They were trespassing and fighting with guards. I couldn't imagine Attorney General Merrick Garland charging these people with sedition.  But maybe they'll do it for political points...
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14183 on: May 05, 2022, 07:03:47 am »

I'm not surprised that the most serious convictions have been under the Seditious Conspiracy statute rather than the Insurrection statute. The two are good examples of a well written statute and a poorly written one.

The Insurrection statute does not define what constitutes insurrection which makes it poorly written and a less desirable charge for a prosecutor. Some crimes are so commonly understood that they don't require definition within the statute — insurrection is not one of those crimes. Insurrection is not a common occurrence in the United States (not yet anyway). You can be sure that a defense lawyer would be grinding away at what constitutes and defines insurrection for hours on end until a jury's or judge's eyes were glazed over in linguistic minutia. Based on online comments I've seen, many ordinary citizens believe that insurrection means overthrow of the government — it doesn't.

On the other hand, the statute that immediately follows Insurrection in that chapter of U.S. code dealing with "treason, sedition, rebellion, and insurrection" — the Seditious Conspiracy statute — defines in detail what acts constitute a criminal offense under that law. So far, there are two guilty pleas that haven't even required going to trial. That's one sign that the law is so specific and well written that it is difficult to defend against by arguing over semantics. Additionally, it carries twice the maximum prison term compared to insurrection.

Personally, I'd like to see Congress rewrite the insurrection statute. In the meantime, I'd like to see many more of the January 6th insurrectionists charged with Seditious Conspiracy because there are a great many guilty of that crime as the statute is written. No... protest isn't a crime, nor is free speech, nor is any other phony distraction from the obvious insurrection that actually occurred on January 6th.

What happened was a mob action. The mob was made up of individuals that committed a variety of crimes during their insurrection for which they could be charged. I hope to see additional serious charges and penalties for those that disgraced democracy and rule of law, their country, and themselves.

I'm cynical about all this. I think that Trump (or a fellow traveler) will win next go-round and that whoever it is will pardon all the Jan 6th "participants" anyway.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14184 on: May 05, 2022, 08:36:16 am »

Some posts just don't age very well...
Often posted by those of advanced age.  ;D
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14185 on: May 05, 2022, 11:38:08 am »

Resident Lula lawyer and virologist:
But to call it sedition is just silly and political.  That would never stand in court.

And today we hear:
Quote
The Oath Keepers founder facing seditious conspiracy charges tried to speak directly with President Donald Trump on the night of Jan. 6, 2021, and implored an intermediary to tell the president to use militia groups to stop the transfer of power, a fellow Oath Keepers member said in court Wednesday.

William Todd Wilson, a member of the far-right militia group who pleaded guilty Wednesday to seditious conspiracy and obstruction of an official proceeding in connection with the Jan. 6 riot, said in federal court that he joined Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes in a suite at the Phoenix Park Hotel not far from the Capitol shortly after the attack and listened as Rhodes called an unnamed Trump intermediary on speakerphone.

As he listened, he heard Rhodes “repeatedly implore the individual to tell President Trump to call upon groups like the Oath Keepers to forcibly oppose a transfer of power,” Wilson and prosecutors said. The person on the line “denied Rhodes’ request to speak directly with President Trump,” according to the agreed-upon statement of offense in Wilson’s case.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 11:42:36 am by digitaldog »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14186 on: May 10, 2022, 10:34:30 am »

Trump seems to have a big problem with Mexico https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/09/trump-mark-esper-memoir-missiles-mexico-book. Missiles?

Drunken bar talk elevated to policy? I hope it was taken out of context or exaggerated.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14187 on: May 10, 2022, 12:51:53 pm »

I hope it was taken out of context or exaggerated.
It wasn't.
Don't forget shooting protesters in the leg (what a guy).
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14188 on: May 10, 2022, 12:59:25 pm »

... Don't forget shooting protesters in the leg (what a guy).

Oh yeah, forgot about that one.

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14189 on: May 11, 2022, 10:19:38 am »

Hearing that Trump said something vile, stupid, or factually incorrect became a big ho-hum many years ago. It's like hearing "sun rises in east" or "it rained in Seattle."
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14190 on: May 12, 2022, 08:26:25 pm »

Hearing that Trump said something vile, stupid, or factually incorrect became a big ho-hum many years ago. It's like hearing "sun rises in east" or "it rained in Seattle."
+1.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14191 on: May 15, 2022, 07:27:43 am »

Here's a discussion about preventing mass shootings from NPR's Fresh Air podcast https://www.npr.org/2022/05/02/1095924723/stopping-mass-shootings-before-they-happen. The interviewee takes the starting position that no gun control is possible in the US and so approaches the issue from other angles. He points out some misconceptions about mass shooters and has some thoughts about dealing with the problem.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14192 on: May 15, 2022, 04:12:46 pm »

Yes, FOX NEWS!!!

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/good-things-biden-leslie-marshall.amp
5 good things Biden has done for all of us
President Biden and his administration have made a number of positive changes for our nation
Leslie Marshall By Leslie Marshall | Fox News
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14193 on: May 16, 2022, 12:28:27 pm »

Yes, FOX NEWS!!!

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/good-things-biden-leslie-marshall.amp
5 good things Biden has done for all of us
President Biden and his administration have made a number of positive changes for our nation
Leslie Marshall By Leslie Marshall | Fox News

Yes, Fox News is open-minded enough to let Leslie spout her nonsense.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14194 on: May 16, 2022, 12:31:53 pm »

Yes, Fox News is open-minded enough to let Leslie spout her nonsense.
As LuLa is open minded enough to let you spout yours, then take a crap again on our carpet. Even though, LuLa is a site for photographers, and of course, you don't appear to be at all capable of that (zero evidence of that ability) and don't belong here.  :-*
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14195 on: May 16, 2022, 02:52:04 pm »

As LuLa is open minded enough to let you spout yours, then take a crap again on our carpet. Even though, LuLa is a site for photographers, and of course, you don't appear to be at all capable of that (zero evidence of that ability) and don't belong here.  :-*
Very good boy, Andrew! You responded within 4 minutes. I got you trained like a clapping seal or Pavlov dog. If we ever meet, I'll make sure to bring a treat for you.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14196 on: May 16, 2022, 03:06:12 pm »

Very good boy, Andrew! You responded within 4 minutes. I got you trained like a clapping seal or Pavlov dog.
But unlike you, I am house trained.
You just took a crap on our carpet again and illustrated once more, you are unable to even produce a snapshot. I can't train you to do so, it's a process that's simply over your head.
Its almost sad, your utter lack of any talent or accomplishments expect moving your bowels here 💩.  :'(
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14197 on: May 16, 2022, 03:39:50 pm »

But unlike you, I am house trained.
You just took a crap on our carpet again and illustrated once more, you are unable to even produce a snapshot. I can't train you to do so, it's a process that's simply over your head.
Its almost sad, your utter lack of any talent or accomplishments expect moving your bowels here 💩.  :'(
Reaction time more than 14 minutes: bad boy, bad boy; no treat for you!
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14198 on: May 16, 2022, 03:46:49 pm »

Reaction time more than 14 minutes: bad boy, bad boy; no treat for you!
How much more time do we give you to show us you have any experience with photography?
Or can post without craping on our carpet again? Bad boy, bad boy; no treat for you, it just spills out of your rear end on the LuLa carpet as others have pointed out to you.
Fast enough reply from me for you to run away as usual for a few weeks, then come back to show your lack of talent or accomplishments to actual photographers here?
Kind of sad how no one here, actual photographers, takes you seriously.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14199 on: May 16, 2022, 11:34:12 pm »

Frans W. has been on my ignore list for a very long time.
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