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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 473985 times)

Chris Kern

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5420 on: January 07, 2021, 06:44:59 pm »

. . . the Capitol cops are barely cops -- they're more like security guards who check people through doors and the magnetometers that make sure people don't bring guns into the place. They're fundamentally like bank guards.

That's a fairly accurate characterization, in my experience.  Also, it's probably worth pointing out that the Capitol Police are accustomed to facilitating demonstrations, which are almost always peaceful, rather than restraining an unruly mob that outnumbers them.  They are trained to respect the right of demonstrators to exercise their constitutional rights to free expression and to "petition" their elected representatives.  They often put up flimsy temporary barriers so protesters know which areas they are expected to avoid, and occasionally they stop the occasional bozo who pushes a barrier aside or jumps over it, but more frequently they need to come to the aid of people who experience medical problems than to deal with those who pose any sort of threat.

There are some special occasions that call for an extraordinary security presence on the Capitol campus: notably (1) the annual "State of the Union" speech by the president, which is delivered inside the Capitol Building to a joint session of the Congress (i.e., all the representatives and senators), the vice president, the members of the Supreme Court, most of the members of the president's cabinet, ambassadors to the United States, and other invited dignitaries, and (2) presidential inaugurations, which include all of the above, previous presidents and vice presidents, and an even larger contingent of invited dignitaries—and which are held outside the west elevation of the Capitol Building.

In retrospect, it seems obvious that the Capitol Police should have prepared similarly for the count of the electoral votes, but that is typically a yawn-inducing ceremonial event to which most of the public is oblivious.  No doubt that will change now.

Jim Pascoe

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5421 on: January 07, 2021, 07:37:35 pm »

Your post responded to my post about Hillary.  So that was my counter to yours.  Regarding the rest of your post, read my post #5331 about how democrats screamed how republicans stole elections from them and actually rejected the Republican electors from Ohio.  It seems like both sides "wuz robbed".   Did you complain when democrats did this?

I notice that you quite often refer to Democrats ‘screaming’.  Reminds me how some of our tabloids in the UK talk about ‘furious’ people quite often. I must live a sheltered life as I seldom hear screaming or meet furious people.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5422 on: January 07, 2021, 08:03:59 pm »

That's a fairly accurate characterization, in my experience.  Also, it's probably worth pointing out that the Capitol Police are accustomed to facilitating demonstrations, which are almost always peaceful, rather than restraining an unruly mob that outnumbers them.  They are trained to respect the right of demonstrators to exercise their constitutional rights to free expression and to "petition" their elected representatives.  They often put up flimsy temporary barriers so protesters know which areas they are expected to avoid, and occasionally they stop the occasional bozo who pushes a barrier aside or jumps over it, but more frequently they need to come to the aid of people who experience medical problems than to deal with those who pose any sort of threat.

There are some special occasions that call for an extraordinary security presence on the Capitol campus: notably (1) the annual "State of the Union" speech by the president, which is delivered inside the Capitol Building to a joint session of the Congress (i.e., all the representatives and senators), the vice president, the members of the Supreme Court, most of the members of the president's cabinet, ambassadors to the United States, and other invited dignitaries, and (2) presidential inaugurations, which include all of the above, previous presidents and vice presidents, and an even larger contingent of invited dignitaries—and which are held outside the west elevation of the Capitol Building.

In retrospect, it seems obvious that the Capitol Police should have prepared similarly for the count of the electoral votes, but that is typically a yawn-inducing ceremonial event to which most of the public is oblivious.  No doubt that will change now.
The commander of the Capitol Police failed in his duties.  He was offered help from other police agencies including the Pentagon and the Washington Police (before the demonstration).  He refused.  Democrat Speaker Nancy Pelosi fired him and Democrat Schumer of the Senate fired the Sergeant-at-arms.  If the commander had prepared, the usual angry crowd would have stayed angry and not become a mob trespassing the Capitol.  To write them off as aides who take you to your seat at the theater, rather than the protector of Congress, the capital and our elected officials, does them a disservice. They did the best they could do. l  But their commander failed them and us.

kers

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5423 on: January 07, 2021, 08:12:00 pm »

Quote
The Latest: Trump condemns Capitol riot, concedes to Biden

https://apnews.com/article/trump-25th-amendment-schumer-capitol-992705542ceebba6596f2d6682b476e7

It took him one day to condemn the riots but did not address his role inciting it...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 08:22:53 pm by kers »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5424 on: January 07, 2021, 08:30:48 pm »

The commander of the Capitol Police failed in his duties.  He was offered help from other police agencies including the Pentagon and the Washington Police (before the demonstration).  He refused.  Democrat Speaker Nancy Pelosi fired him and Democrat Schumer of the Senate fired the Sergeant-at-arms.  If the commander had prepared, the usual angry crowd would have stayed angry and not become a mob trespassing the Capitol.  To write them off as aides who take you to your seat at the theater, rather than the protector of Congress, the capital and our elected officials, does them a disservice. They did the best they could do. l  But their commander failed them and us.

Predictably still searching to assign blame for the Trump Insurrection Riot at the Capitol everywhere but where it belongs. Ever the faithful enabler and apologist.

Now shifting your blame game from earlier today when you were looking to blame Democrats and the DC Metro Police.

It may have been the Democrats who "let them in" to embarrass Trump and the Republicans.  After all, the Washington DC police who protect the capital is run by democrats. On the other hand, it could have just been normal Democrat incompetence.  After all, they knew there would be demonstrations.  These are common in Washington.  So where were the DC police?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5425 on: January 07, 2021, 08:32:01 pm »

https://apnews.com/article/trump-25th-amendment-schumer-capitol-992705542ceebba6596f2d6682b476e7

It took him one day to condemn the riots but did not address his role inciting it...
Are Democrats and those on the left who encouraged demonstrations against the police responsible for the assassination of cops, riots, looting, and arson that went on across the country?  I condemn what happened at the capitol. It's okay to demonstrate but don't break the law.  Violators should go to jail.  But I haven't heard much condemnation from Democrats of the assassinations, riots, looting and arson.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5426 on: January 07, 2021, 08:40:13 pm »

Predictably still searching to assign blame for the Trump Insurrection Riot at the Capitol everywhere but where it belongs. Ever the faithful enabler and apologist.

Now shifting your blame game from earlier today when you were looking to blame Democrats and the DC Metro Police.

From what a read today, it seems to be incompetence and hubris of the Capitol Police commander.  They weren't prepared.  That doesn't excuse the violators.  They should go to jail.  It's okay for a president to have his supporters demonstrate.  However, they went over the line and should be prosecuted.  99.99% of Trump supporters would not do these things even though they have a strong feeling about Trump as you do the opposite way.  There are always nuts on the fringes - left and right.  You can't stop making political points because of them. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5427 on: January 07, 2021, 08:57:38 pm »

Jeez, Alan, all your bros have bailed.  There's nobody left here but you.  Innit lonely?
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5428 on: January 07, 2021, 09:06:34 pm »

The commander of the Capitol Police failed in his duties.  He was offered help from other police agencies including the Pentagon and the Washington Police (before the demonstration).  He refused.  Democrat Speaker Nancy Pelosi fired him and Democrat Schumer of the Senate fired the Sergeant-at-arms.  If the commander had prepared, the usual angry crowd would have stayed angry and not become a mob trespassing the Capitol.  To write them off as aides who take you to your seat at the theater, rather than the protector of Congress, the capital and our elected officials, does them a disservice. They did the best they could do. l  But their commander failed them and us.

Yeah, it’s all the commander’s fault Trump whipped his supporters into a violent frenzy with an hour and thirteen minutes of deliberate lies and unleashed them on their path of death and destruction in the Capitol.

Who or what will next be responsible for the butterfly effect that resulted in the breach and devastation of our citadel of freedom?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 09:11:16 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5429 on: January 07, 2021, 09:09:45 pm »

However, they went over the line and should be prosecuted.

So far you've called an insurrection, riot, and assault on the nation's Capitol in order to stop the democratic process of certifying the election of a president: "over the line"; "trespassing the Capitol"; "trespass and interrupting Congress... not sedition"; "a bunch of stupid demonstrators armed only with anger". You've bent over backward to find ways to blame Democrats.

You will continue minimizing, distracting, and blame shifting in order to avoid the fact that this was a combustion fueled by Trump with a pile of endlessly repeated lies; inflamed at every opportunity; and then ignited. Trump was aided for months in creating the end result that we saw yesterday by complicit enablers and apologists.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5430 on: January 07, 2021, 09:11:54 pm »

Jeez, Alan, all your bros have bailed.  There's nobody left here but you.  Innit lonely?
I'm trying to keep the thread going.  If I bail too, you guys will get bored with each other and stop posting.  It will become like CNN and MSNBC.  :)

D Fuller

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5431 on: January 07, 2021, 09:15:27 pm »

You're being hyperbolic.  Trump hasn't violated any laws complaining about illegal elections and filing lawsuits.  The courts have thrown out his claims.  They went nowhere.  The Democrats have done worse even throwing out Republican electors from Ohio.  Neither side is being fascist.  They're following the law and the constitution.

While trespass and interrupting Congress in process are illegal, it's not sedition. Civil disobedience and complaining about the government have long histories in the US.

No?

It seems to me that interrupting the joint session of Congress is the very definition of sedition.



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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5432 on: January 07, 2021, 09:19:12 pm »

I'm trying to keep the thread going.  If I bail too, you guys will get bored with each other and stop posting.  It will become like CNN and MSNBC.  :)

Well...yeah.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5433 on: January 07, 2021, 09:20:39 pm »

So far you've called an insurrection, riot, and assault on the nation's Capitol in order to stop the democratic process of certifying the election of a president: "over the line"; "trespassing the Capitol"; "trespass and interrupting Congress... not sedition"; "a bunch of stupid demonstrators armed only with anger". You've bent over backward to find ways to blame Democrats.

You will continue minimizing, distracting, and blame shifting in order to avoid the fact that this was a combustion fueled by Trump with a pile of endlessly repeated lies; inflamed at every opportunity; and then ignited. Trump was aided for months in creating the end result that we saw yesterday by complicit enablers and apologists.
There are many people who feel there was game playing at a minimum regarding the way the voting occurred in many battleground states.  Those people have a right to express their disgruntlement.  I didn't hear you assault those who marched in the street under the BLM banner, many who then went on to do violent acts.  You were their apologist.  You can't have freedom of speech on one side.

Having said that, I'll repeat that I do not condone the trespassing or violence by anyone, especially on my side.  It's embarrassing and hurts our position.  I don't know how many times I have to repeat that.  But because there are a few a$$holes, that doesn't mean I have to give up my right to free speech anymore than people on your side have to stop speaking freely too because of some violence on your side.  You guys always try to shut up people on the right.  You only believe in free speech if you agree with it. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5434 on: January 07, 2021, 09:29:22 pm »

No?

It seems to me that interrupting the joint session of Congress is the very definition of sedition.




Oh please.  Those people weren't conspiring to overthrow the government of the United States.  I don't know how many times people interrupted hearings in Congress and then were led away by Capitol Police.   It even happened during one of Obama's State of the Union speeches in Congress.  Okay, this was a little worse.  But they were basically demonstrating and got unruly.  They violated trespass laws, maybe assault, damage to government property, etc. but did not commit sedition.  I know you'd like to throw all republicans in jail for twenty years.  But your claims are specious.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5435 on: January 07, 2021, 09:36:30 pm »

Oh please....But your claims are specious.


Go back and read D Fuller’s post, Alan.  And quit apologizing for those idiots.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5436 on: January 07, 2021, 09:38:06 pm »


Go back and read D Fuller’s post, Alan.  And quit apologizing for those idiots.
I read the act.  Name one person who went to jail violating those things as these demonstrators did?  It's never happened. 

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5437 on: January 07, 2021, 09:39:18 pm »

You guys always try to shut up people on the right.  You only believe in free speech if you agree with it.

You're confusing criticism of blindly believing and parroting the lies of a sociopathic con man that was also a president and minimizing and normalizing his lies and bizarre behavior with trying to shut someone up.

Playing the victim.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 10:39:55 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5438 on: January 07, 2021, 09:44:15 pm »

Your confusing criticism of blindly believing and parroting the lies of a sociopathic con man that was also a president and minimizing and normalizing his lies and bizarre behavior with trying to shut someone up.
No.  You want to shut up all people who express beliefs different than yours. It's not up to you to decide who beliefs have standing and who don't.   By claiming someone is sociopathic and therefore everyone who supports him should be denied the right to support him is antithetical to free speech.  That's what they're doing right now in Hong Kong.  Arresting people who oppose the government.  Is that what you want Biden to do?  Continue the BS started with the Russian conspiracy claims from your side.  Haven't you done enough damage?

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5439 on: January 07, 2021, 09:49:37 pm »

No.  You want to shut up all people who express beliefs different than yours. It's not up to you to decide who beliefs have standing and who don't.   By claiming someone is sociopathic and therefore everyone who supports him should be denied the right to support him is antithetical to free speech.  That's what they're doing right now in Hong Kong.  Arresting people who oppose the government.  Is that what you want Biden to do?  Continue the BS started with the Russian conspiracy claims from your side.  Haven't you done enough damage?

I exercise my right to criticize while you exercise your right to play the victim whenever it becomes uncomfortable for you.
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