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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 466325 times)

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1400 on: November 15, 2020, 10:28:06 am »

Why do you assume me at the worse?  I was trying to make a important point about presidential orders and the problems they cause.  Actually, the original DACA presidential order may be illegal as well because the courts may maintain that Obama didn't have the authority to issue it, only Congress could.  One federal judge has already determined that I believe.  In any case, I don't believe it;s legality has been finally settled. So now we have a possible illegal presidential order being illegally overruled by another president.  It's like Alice in Wonderland.

Except that you weren't. I'll repeat: There is a difference between illegally appointing an acting secretary resulting in all of his actions being illegal, and having legally adopted executive orders reversed by a subsequent president. But I understand why you want to conflate the two to try to cover Trump's ass.

Please note that the courts did not declare the Paris accords or the Iran agreement illegal. Trump simply decided to withdraw from them.

With respect to DACA, the Supreme Court had every opportunity to declare DACA illegal. Instead of doing so, the Court decided the narrower issue of whether the Trump administration had illegally terminated it, and determined that they had. The Court specifically stated that the Trump administration had a perfect right to terminate it if they followed the legal procedure for doing so. The Trump administration decided not to follow up and terminate DACA. I guess Trump didn't think it was in his political interest to do so.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/18/829858289/supreme-court-upholds-daca-in-blow-to-trump-administration

It is nothing like Alice in Wonderland. That is one of your fact free opinions. You are certainly entitled to it.

The main point I was making is that all presidents think they're kings.  They issue edicts that become challenged more easily in court because they failed to get Congress to pass legislation codifying these rules.

That is one of your fact free opinions. You are certainly entitled to it. But it is just another one of your excuses for Trump's behavior.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 10:59:30 am by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1401 on: November 15, 2020, 10:32:31 am »

His epitaph. So much winning.
No president completes all his policy initiatives.  He made a start.  Now the new president has to complete it if he feels it's worthwhile, as most Americans believe that we should stop China from stealing our intellectual property.  How would you like someone stealing your photographs? 

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1402 on: November 15, 2020, 10:41:09 am »

No president completes all his policy initiatives.  He made a start.  Now the new president has to complete it if he feels it's worthwhile, as most Americans believe that we should stop China from stealing our intellectual property.  How would you like someone stealing your photographs?
Tell us exactly and factually with peer reviewed outside reference what Trump accomplished with China. If you can! I
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armand

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1403 on: November 15, 2020, 10:43:39 am »

When it comes to Iran; I think there are signs on the wall that something might happen:
1 weakening of Iran with sanctions ( + Covid)
2 selling loads of weapons and drones to Saoudi Arabia .
(What forever for do they need so much weapons  but for using it in a war? as they already did in Jemen)
3 Selling of US deep penetrating bombs to Israel.
4 Building an alliance of surrounding muslim countries against Iran while accepting Israel... ( peace treaties?)
The way I see it is clear to me that Iran will not be attacked by the US, but by this alliance of nations feeded with US high tech weaponry.
No US soldier dies; The US makes huge profits on the weapons. Iran gone. Great deal.
Weapons are only profitable as they are sold. The US has far tooo much of them, costing tremendous, doing nothing. Keeping a lot of citizen employed.
Defense?; A destroy business.



I didn't follow this so I don't if the matter was raised.

What if Trump starts an war. Let's say with Iran. Reasons and ways he can find. Would that give him the opportunity to "disregard" the transition of power?


I don't follow much the current state of business but from the little I've seen I get a similar vibe. Add the multiple last minute replacements in the defense department with the so called loyalists. Something is cooking. The election is lost, they know it; the circus is so you keep your eyes on the ball and don't look at what happens in the background.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1404 on: November 15, 2020, 10:44:52 am »

When it comes to Iran; I think there are signs on the wall that something might happen:
1 weakening of Iran with sanctions ( + Covid)
2 selling loads of weapons and drones to Saoudi Arabia .
(What forever for do they need so much weapons  but for using it in a war? as they already did in Jemen)
3 Selling of US deep penetrating bombs to Israel.
4 Building an alliance of surrounding muslim countries against Iran while accepting Israel... ( peace treaties?)
The way I see it is clear to me that Iran will not be attacked by the US, but by this alliance of nations feeded with US high tech weaponry.
No US soldier dies; The US makes huge profits on the weapons. Iran gone. Great deal.
Weapons are only profitable as they are sold. The US has far tooo much of them, costing tremendous, doing nothing. Keeping a lot of citizen employed.
Defense?; A destroy business.


Maybe the Dutch should withdraw from NATO and give us back our nukes and F16's?  Or stop complaining and be a little appreciative we're protecting you from the Bear.


At present (2008), the USAF still provides 22 tactical B61 nuclear bombs for use by the Netherlands under the NATO nuclear weapons sharing agreement. These weapons are stored at Volkel Air Base and, in time of war, they may be delivered by Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16 warplanes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1405 on: November 15, 2020, 10:45:08 am »

The election is over.  No one cares anymore.
Again speaking for everyone and wrong again. Alan: often wrong and never in doubt. 🤮
You say you don't care, you don't speak for everyone.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1406 on: November 15, 2020, 10:54:37 am »

Except that you weren't. I'll repeat: There is a difference between illegally appointing an acting secretary resulting in all of his actions being illegal, and having legally adopted executive orders reversed by a subsequent president. But I understand why you want to conflate the two to try to cover Trump's ass.

That is one of your fact free opinions. You are certainly entitled to it. But it is just another one of your excuses for Trump's behavior.
I didn't cover anyone's ass.  I said what he did was illegal.  Why are you misquoting me and distorting  what I said?  It's not an opinion.  It's facts. Here a list showing executive orders for the last four presidents.  They all issued too many.  Click on one of the links to see the kind of orders they issue.  It's all over the place.  Our constitution didn't want presidents to have this kind of power.  They wanted congress to deliberate and issue laws.  Presidents aren't kings.  That was my point.

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1407 on: November 15, 2020, 11:09:39 am »

I didn't cover anyone's ass.  I said what he did was illegal.  Why are you misquoting me and distorting  what I said?  It's not an opinion.  It's facts. Here a list showing executive orders for the last four presidents.  They all issued too many.  Click on one of the links to see the kind of orders they issue.  It's all over the place.  Our constitution didn't want presidents to have this kind of power.  They wanted congress to deliberate and issue laws.  Presidents aren't kings.  That was my point.

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders

Executive orders are a perfectly legitimate exercise of executive power under the Constitution. Occasionally, the president may exceed his authority, in which case the courts will adjudicate the issue. Just because you don't like executive orders, and would prefer some other system of governance, is neither here nor there. It is just your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 11:35:28 am by faberryman »
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kers

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1408 on: November 15, 2020, 11:09:58 am »

Maybe the Dutch should withdraw from NATO and give us back our nukes and F16's?  Or stop complaining and be a little appreciative we're protecting you from the Bear.


At present (2008), the USAF still provides 22 tactical B61 nuclear bombs for use by the Netherlands under the NATO nuclear weapons sharing agreement. These weapons are stored at Volkel Air Base and, in time of war, they may be delivered by Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16 warplanes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
Too much money goes to 'Defense' in the US- it has nothing to do with being grateful or not.
So how much nuclear weapons are needed for your and our defense? Some 100 some 1000? How many times you want to destroy the earth?
if you need 50 ; than the money of the other 950 could be spend on a much better purpose. A LOT OF MONEY.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1409 on: November 15, 2020, 11:13:02 am »

Except that you weren't. I'll repeat: There is a difference between illegally appointing an acting secretary resulting in all of his actions being illegal, and having legally adopted executive orders reversed by a subsequent president. But I understand why you want to conflate the two to try to cover Trump's ass.

Please note that the courts did not declare the Paris accords or the Iran agreement illegal. Trump simply decided to withdraw from them.

With respect to DACA, the Supreme Court had every opportunity to declare DACA illegal. Instead of doing so, the Court decided the narrower issue of whether the Trump administration had illegally terminated it, and determined that they had. The Court specifically stated that the Trump administration had a perfect right to terminate it if they followed the legal procedure for doing so. The Trump administration decided not to follow up and terminate DACA. I guess Trump didn't think it was in his political interest to do so.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/18/829858289/supreme-court-upholds-daca-in-blow-to-trump-administration

It is nothing like Alice in Wonderland. That is one of your fact free opinions. You are certainly entitled to it.

That is one of your fact free opinions. You are certainly entitled to it. But it is just another one of your excuses for Trump's behavior.
I suppose those are two of your fact free opinions.  You really need to start giving facts to back up your opinions.  :)

Chris Kern

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1410 on: November 15, 2020, 11:13:39 am »

Trump pulled the US out of TPP four years ago and the US is now excluded from RCEP.

No foreign government made out better during the Trump Administration than China’s.  By pulling out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Trump undermined the only realistic challenge to China's neo-mercantilist international trade policy.  Without American participation, the other T.P.P. signatories were left with no reasonable alternative than to renegotiate the agreement on terms acceptable to China, which—given its relative economic dominance—actually increases Chinese influence in the region.

Instead of participating in a rules-based multilateral trade agreement, Trump instituted tariffs on Chinese imports to the United States.  These taxes, paid by the American importers, undermined their profits while having at best a trivial adverse effect on the Chinese manufacturers that were their ostensible targets.  China retaliated by shifting agricultural purchases, especially soybeans, to other producing countries such as Brazil, which had a devastating impact on U.S. farmers.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 11:27:00 am by Chris Kern »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1411 on: November 15, 2020, 11:16:47 am »

Again speaking for everyone and wrong again. Alan: often wrong and never in doubt. 🤮
You say you don't care, you don't speak for everyone.
Is that your opinion or do you have facts to back it up.  I want a peer review link to prove it.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1412 on: November 15, 2020, 11:19:45 am »

Executive orders are a perfectly legitimate exercise of executive power under the constitution. Occasionally, the president may exceed his authority, in which case the courts will adjudicate the issue. The fact that you don't like executive orders, and would prefer some other system of governance, is of no import to anyone but you.
Do you have proof of that?  Did you Google it to see if others may be concerned about presidential power?  Or do you know that I'm the only one?  Have you asked every American?  You really need to start backing up your opinions with facts. 

armand

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1413 on: November 15, 2020, 11:19:54 am »

No foreign government made out better during the Trump Administration than China.  By pulling out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Trump undermined the only realistic challenge to China's neo-mercantilist international trade policy.  Without American participation, the other T.P.P. signatories were left with no reasonable alternative than to renegotiate the agreement on terms acceptable to China, which—given its relative economic dominance—actually increases Chinese influence in the region.

Instead of participating in a rules-based multilateral trade agreement, Trump instituted tariffs on Chinese imports to the United States.  These taxes, paid by the American importers, undermined their profits while having at best a trivial adverse effect on the Chinese manufacturers that were their ostensible targets.  China retaliated by shifting agricultural purchases, especially soybeans, to other producing countries such as Brazil, which had a devastating impact on U.S. farmers.

This!

Trump created a vacuum that China gladly filled.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1414 on: November 15, 2020, 11:23:57 am »

Too much money goes to 'Defense' in the US- it has nothing to do with being grateful or not.
So how much nuclear weapons are needed for your and our defense? Some 100 some 1000? How many times you want to destroy the earth?
if you need 50 ; than the money of the other 950 could be spend on a much better purpose. A LOT OF MONEY.
Americans could save a lot of money and use for ourselves if we withdraw from Europe and let the Dutch and the rest of Europe defend itself.  You're perfectly capable of doing that.  It's not 1948 and the Iron Curtain is long gone. 

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.  (Look it up. ) :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1415 on: November 15, 2020, 11:36:32 am »

No foreign government made out better during the Trump Administration than China’s.  By pulling out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Trump undermined the only realistic challenge to China's neo-mercantilist international trade policy.  Without American participation, the other T.P.P. signatories were left with no reasonable alternative than to renegotiate the agreement on terms acceptable to China, which—given its relative economic dominance—actually increases Chinese influence in the region.

Instead of participating in a rules-based multilateral trade agreement, Trump instituted tariffs on Chinese imports to the United States.  These taxes, paid by the American importers, undermined their profits while having at best a trivial adverse effect on the Chinese manufacturers that were their ostensible targets.  China retaliated by shifting agricultural purchases, especially soybeans, to other producing countries such as Brazil, which had a devastating impact on U.S. farmers.
During war, there are casualties.  Trump was the first president to try something more than complaining verbally about their theft of our property.  When someone is banging you over the head and you defend yourself, you're going to get bruised.  Should we just continue to let them steal our stuff and act like a bunch of women and do nothing?  What do you recommend we should do?  What should Biden do?  It's easy to complain.  But what do you suggest we do to stop them? 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1416 on: November 15, 2020, 11:45:29 am »

I suppose those are two of your fact free opinions.  You really need to start giving facts to back up your opinions.  :)

I knew you would be unable to address the substance of the arguments.

I have not asked you for facts to back up your opinions since you told me doing so was impolite and an act of bad faith.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1417 on: November 15, 2020, 11:47:28 am »

The problem is that for four years, the approach was that the Democrats and anti-Trump side rejected everything TRump did, even if it was good for the country.  Every opposition was a knee-jerk opposition to his action.  So now, another guy is taking over.  He'll be faced with many of the same issues. What is he going to do?  YOu have to start looking at the issues separate from Trump and do what's best for the country.  Some of those things will be what TRump did and Biden should continue those policies. 

For example, Biden wants to eliminate Trump's ban of certain countries in the middle east on day one of his administration.  That's a political knee-jerk reaction.  God forbid a terrorist sneaks in from one of them and causes another 911.  The Democrats will be blamed.  He should study the issue first and then make intelligent and informed security adjustments if necessary.

Same with Iran.  Trump's arrangement seems to be working.  Iran's economy is in trouble and they can't make as much trouble in the Middle East.  Why make it easier for them by reversing his policy?  Go slow.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1418 on: November 15, 2020, 11:47:55 am »

Should we just continue to let them steal our stuff and act like a bunch of women and do nothing?

You appear to be adopting Trump's mysogeny. It is not a good look.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1419 on: November 15, 2020, 11:53:17 am »

I knew you would be unable to address the substance of the arguments.

I have not asked you for facts to back up your opinions since you told me doing so was impolite and an act of bad faith.


Frank, how about we make a deal?  Let's both stop asking each other for facts for giving our opinions.  It's a little silly, wouldn't you say? After all, opinions are just that - opinions.  That's like Nikon and Canon fan-boys asking each other for facts proving their cameras are the best.  :)
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