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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 471353 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13580 on: January 14, 2022, 03:31:56 pm »

Can you provide some data on this please.  I find it hard to believe that you are saving $50 per month on transportation fuel when in every instance an household electric appliance cost more to operate that a gas/oil cousin. 

And I would like to see an apples to apples comparison.  Similar style cars with similar house power, not comparing a hummer to a Tesla.

I posted more information about the fuel savings in the Cars thread. If you have solar panels on your roof, you could save even more.
Here is a handy Canadian Fuel Saving Calculator
I tried it, using the Hyundai Ioniq car. The savings in US would be slightly lower, since the gas is cheaper there and also the US $ is worth more.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13581 on: January 14, 2022, 04:41:13 pm »

Can you provide some data on this please.  I find it hard to believe that you are saving $50 per month on transportation fuel when in every instance an household electric appliance cost more to operate that a gas/oil cousin. 

And I would like to see an apples to apples comparison.  Similar style cars with similar house power, not comparing a hummer to a Tesla. 
The new $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill includes $15 billion for EV's and charging stations.  That doesn't include billions more that will be included for upgrading the power plants and distribution system some of which is required for the additional electricity anticipated for the charging stations, in homes, and distribution to get the power there.  So the public is paying for private ownership of EV's, a huge subsidy.  Then the politicians complain that Elon Musk is making too much money.  Well, the government, or should I say the hapless taxpayers are giving it to him.  Duh!

Electric vehicles
The legislation will provide $7.5 billion for zero- and low-emission buses and ferries, aiming to deliver thousands of electric school buses to districts across the country, according to the White House.
Another $7.5 billion will go to building a nationwide network of plug-in electric vehicle chargers, according to the text.

Improving power and water systems
The package invests $65 billion to rebuild the electric grid, according to the White House. It calls for building thousands of miles of new power lines and expanding renewable energy, the White House said.
It provides $55 billion to upgrade water infrastructure, according to the text. It will replace lead service lines and pipes so that communities have access to clean drinking water, the White House said.
Another $50 billion will go toward making the system more resilient -- protecting it from drought, floods and cyberattacks, the White House said.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/28/politics/infrastructure-bill-explained/index.html

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13582 on: January 14, 2022, 04:44:17 pm »

I posted more information about the fuel savings in the Cars thread. If you have solar panels on your roof, you could save even more.
Here is a handy Canadian Fuel Saving Calculator
I tried it, using the Hyundai Ioniq car. The savings in US would be slightly lower, since the gas is cheaper there and also the US $ is worth more.
Not for long the way inflation is going.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13583 on: January 14, 2022, 04:44:25 pm »

The new $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill includes $15 billion for EV's and charging stations.  That doesn't include billions more that will be included for upgrading the power plants and distribution system some of which is required for the additional electricity anticipated for the charging stations, in homes, and distribution to get the power there.  So the public is paying for private ownership of EV's, a huge subsidy.  Then the politicians complain that Elon Musk is making too much money.  Well, the government, or should I say the hapless taxpayers are giving it to him.  Duh!

Electric vehicles
The legislation will provide $7.5 billion for zero- and low-emission buses and ferries, aiming to deliver thousands of electric school buses to districts across the country, according to the White House.
Another $7.5 billion will go to building a nationwide network of plug-in electric vehicle chargers, according to the text.

Improving power and water systems
The package invests $65 billion to rebuild the electric grid, according to the White House. It calls for building thousands of miles of new power lines and expanding renewable energy, the White House said.
It provides $55 billion to upgrade water infrastructure, according to the text. It will replace lead service lines and pipes so that communities have access to clean drinking water, the White House said.
Another $50 billion will go toward making the system more resilient -- protecting it from drought, floods and cyberattacks, the White House said.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/28/politics/infrastructure-bill-explained/index.html

I've had occasion to mention this many times before, but I'll do it again. It's good to include all costs and benefits when doing these kinds of analyses. We should not do it any other way. So why do you never include all the subsidies we've provided to the oil and gas industry for the last century or more? Why pretend that didn't happen? Why are you taking sides?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13584 on: January 14, 2022, 04:52:48 pm »

I've had occasion to mention this many times before, but I'll do it again. It's good to include all costs and benefits when doing these kinds of analyses. We should not do it any other way. So why do you never include all the subsidies we've provided to the oil and gas industry for the last century or more? Why pretend that didn't happen? Why are you taking sides?
I'm not taking sides.  I am against all subsidies to the oil and gas industry as well.

Because we made mistakes then, doesn't mean we should continue them. Let the free markets work.  Let the gas and oil companies and the EV companies sell their products to consumers who want to buy them.    Let them charge whatever supply and demand require. 

Besides the economic problems, why should people making less income give their tax money to richer people so the richer people can live even cheaper?  Why should rich companies and rich owners like Musk get richer off the government handout?  Where's the fairness in that?  How does that even comport with a liberal philosophy that I believe you have? I would think you would have thought subsidies for EV's just as unfair as oil and gas were back in the day.  After all, back then, those subsidies were justified too and seem to make a lot of sense then. Those subsidies were dumb then and today's subsidies are dumb as well.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 04:56:13 pm by Alan Klein »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13585 on: January 14, 2022, 05:07:00 pm »

...
Because we made mistakes then, ...

"then" ?

Do you think that the oil and gas industry isn't still being subsidized? Just for starters, what do you call taxpayers having to pay for toxic waste cleanup at refineries and chemical plants?

The "free market" in textbooks always operates in such a way that the prices of goods reflect real costs, and if they did that, prices would be a very good way to mediate things, including environmental costs. But in the real world, they don't. When you draw an arbitrary line that states that EVs are subsidized and are therefore unfairly priced, well, it's just a little too convenient in my book. Your analysis is incomplete. This must be the 10th time we go round this particular circle.
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James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13586 on: January 14, 2022, 05:17:32 pm »

Can you provide some data on this please.  I find it hard to believe that you are saving $50 per month on transportation fuel when in every instance an household electric appliance cost more to operate that a gas/oil cousin. 

And I would like to see an apples to apples comparison.  Similar style cars with similar house power, not comparing a hummer to a Tesla.

Quick math...

My Dec power bill was 993KwH for 90bucks = .09 (9 cents) kwh

My wife's MINI SE - 35kwh/113 miles, so $3.15 for 113 miles, or $12.60 for 450 miles, give or take.

Tesla Plaid 100KW is rated good for 400 miles - 100x.09 - NINE BUCKS (that's wildly optimistic, but even at a 200 mi range it's still just 18 bucks for 400 miles of range in a 1000 hp car (Assuming you make it that far before you crash from using the stupid, stupid yoke as a steering wheel :/ )

I don't care what car you want to compare it to - find me an econobox that can match the MINI (which is a much better driving car than your average econobox, BTW), or a 1000hp sports car that can touch the Tesla. There might be a place somewhere in the vanilla sedan category where some 4cyl sedans that touch 30-40mpg MIGHT be sort of a little competitive with, say a Tesla 3 if your electric rates really, really, REALLY suck, but saving 50 bucks a month vs a gasser in general?  That's not even hard.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13587 on: January 14, 2022, 05:23:36 pm »

Quick math...

My Dec power bill was 993KwH for 90bucks = .09 (9 cents) kwh

My wife's MINI SE - 35kwh/113 miles, so $3.15 for 113 miles, or $12.60 for 450 miles, give or take.

Tesla Plaid 100KW is rated good for 400 miles - 100x.09 - NINE BUCKS (that's wildly optimistic, but even at a 200 mi range it's still just 18 bucks for 400 miles of range in a 1000 hp car (Assuming you make it that far before you crash from using the stupid, stupid yoke as a steering wheel :/ )

I don't care what car you want to compare it to - find me an econobox that can match the MINI (which is a much better driving car than your average econobox, BTW), or a 1000hp sports car that can touch the Tesla. There might be a place somewhere in the vanilla sedan category where some 4cyl sedans that touch 30-40mpg MIGHT be sort of a little competitive with, say a Tesla 3 if your electric rates really, really, REALLY suck, but saving 50 bucks a month vs a gasser in general?  That's not even hard.

These are fascinating numbers. 

So is the Mini's max distance 113 miles?  If not, why did you choose that distance? 
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James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13588 on: January 14, 2022, 05:27:36 pm »

These are fascinating numbers. 

So is the Mini's max distance 113 miles?  If not, why did you choose that distance?

Yep - that's the max. We have it as an in-town commuter, and it ends up getting probably 2/3 - 3/4 of our annual total mileage. 
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13589 on: January 14, 2022, 05:54:51 pm »

The MINI SE website has a calculator which has input for fuel cost per gallon of gasoline, MPG for gas powered car, your electricity rate, and miles driven annually. The calculator will give you monthly or annual savings.

Just scroll down the page here...

https://www.miniusa.com/model/electric-hardtop.html
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13590 on: January 14, 2022, 07:50:53 pm »

"then" ?

Do you think that the oil and gas industry isn't still being subsidized? Just for starters, what do you call taxpayers having to pay for toxic waste cleanup at refineries and chemical plants?

The "free market" in textbooks always operates in such a way that the prices of goods reflect real costs, and if they did that, prices would be a very good way to mediate things, including environmental costs. But in the real world, they don't. When you draw an arbitrary line that states that EVs are subsidized and are therefore unfairly priced, well, it's just a little too convenient in my book. Your analysis is incomplete. This must be the 10th time we go round this particular circle.
You're conflating issues that have no relation. If oil companies are infecting the ground, sue them.  Make them clean the mess up.   What does that have to do with subsidizing the EV companies? 

Stop all oil subsidies.  Stop all EV subsidies.  It's simple.  Taxpayers shouldn't be enriching oil companies or EV companies.  They have to survive on their own.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13591 on: January 14, 2022, 07:57:21 pm »

The tide is coming in and the Big Three are gonna have to learn to swim.

This is the Imperium Skywell. 300 mile range, $43K before Alan's dreaded subsidies.  Monroe Associates love it so much, they just bought one.
https://imperiumev.com/sev
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAXLRS4IPB8

This review is on the premium edition, which has a few more bells and whistles.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13592 on: January 14, 2022, 08:01:35 pm »

You're conflating issues that have no relation. If oil companies are infecting the ground, sue them.  Make them clean the mess up.   What does that have to do with subsidizing the EV companies? 

In over 100 years of environmental destruction, the FF companies have got off virtually scott free. We're left to clean up their mess, they're left with the money.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 08:06:51 pm by Peter McLennan »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13593 on: January 14, 2022, 08:03:55 pm »

Quick math...

My Dec power bill was 993KwH for 90bucks = .09 (9 cents) kwh

My wife's MINI SE - 35kwh/113 miles, so $3.15 for 113 miles, or $12.60 for 450 miles, give or take.

Tesla Plaid 100KW is rated good for 400 miles - 100x.09 - NINE BUCKS (that's wildly optimistic, but even at a 200 mi range it's still just 18 bucks for 400 miles of range in a 1000 hp car (Assuming you make it that far before you crash from using the stupid, stupid yoke as a steering wheel :/ )

I don't care what car you want to compare it to - find me an econobox that can match the MINI (which is a much better driving car than your average econobox, BTW), or a 1000hp sports car that can touch the Tesla. There might be a place somewhere in the vanilla sedan category where some 4cyl sedans that touch 30-40mpg MIGHT be sort of a little competitive with, say a Tesla 3 if your electric rates really, really, REALLY suck, but saving 50 bucks a month vs a gasser in general?  That's not even hard.
What about the depreciation cost of the $10,000 battery when you purchased the car?  You could have gotten an equivalent gasoline-fired car for $10,000 less and saved the $10,000 for future gas purchases.   Note I choose $10,000 as an estimate.  According to Les above and the article, it may be a lot more.   So where's the savings.  You have to figure the complete cost of running a car and the depreciation portion is a lot more than gas or electricity.

As an aside where do you live where you only pay 9 cents/KWH?  I pay around 13 cents in NJ. The average US cost I believe is around $0.14. But in Germany, it's 2 1/2 times that cost which would make electric vehicle recharging a lot more costly there. Well, gasoline is also much higher so it might balance out.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13594 on: January 14, 2022, 08:09:05 pm »

History, for those who like to learn from it.  13 years.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13595 on: January 14, 2022, 08:15:55 pm »

As an aside where do you live where you only pay 9 cents/KWH?  I pay around 13 cents in NJ. The average US cost I believe is around $0.14. But in Germany, it's 2 1/2 times that cost which would make electric vehicle recharging a lot more costly there. Well, gasoline is also much higher so it might balance out.

Despite the higher electricity cost in Germany, it is still cheaper there to charge EV than to fill up a gas tank. The gas costs there are also 2 to 2.5 times higher there than in US.
EV sales in Germany are now over 30% of the total car sales and going up every month.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13596 on: January 14, 2022, 08:18:51 pm »

These are fascinating numbers. 

So is the Mini's max distance 113 miles?  If not, why did you choose that distance? 
The Mini SE electric runs $30K to $37K.  It;s a tiny car  That's a lot of money for 113 mile range. The article says there a $7500 Federal tax credit from the government.  (Any state credits or rebates?) 

It' may be a great deal.  I don't know.  But do you think it's fair that some poor schnooks are subsidizing your town car paying your taxes for you?  You can buy a lot of gasoline for that.   :)
https://www.caranddriver.com/mini/cooper-s-e

JoeKitchen

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13597 on: January 14, 2022, 08:39:47 pm »

The Mini SE electric runs $30K to $37K.  It;s a tiny car  That's a lot of money for 113 mile range. The article says there a $7500 Federal tax credit from the government.  (Any state credits or rebates?) 

It' may be a great deal.  I don't know.  But do you think it's fair that some poor schnooks are subsidizing your town car paying your taxes for you?  You can buy a lot of gasoline for that.   :)
https://www.caranddriver.com/mini/cooper-s-e

Like I said, for long non-planned distances I have my doubts.  No-one wants to be taking a 45 minute coffee break when going to work.  Likewise, for farm vehicles that need hydraulics these are not yet practical, yet.  No where near capable.  However for the average consumer, so long as taxes do not suffer, I can not see a down side vs gasoline cars.  Even though my wife and I are not moving towards city life, this may be a great option for so many in these areas. 

However, for me, this is personal and, although I can not nor expect people to trade city life for rural life, I require not to have to subsidized rural life advantages (like actual cellars and natural refrigeration and curing knowledge) in taxes to city/suburb slickers who can not at all survive on their own.  You, as far as I am concerned, trade this for death when it comes on relying on country folk.  I value myself and my family over you, end of story.  I will lie to no end to protect this right. 

So long as you are fine with this, count me in and agreeable on this. But even if you don't, there is no remiss, and make no mistake, I have enough food for a year, which you will never know about, and, not because I am a crazy preppier, but because fermented food taste so much better.   ;) ;) ;)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 08:54:06 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13598 on: January 14, 2022, 08:46:47 pm »

The tide is coming in and the Big Three are gonna have to learn to swim.

This is the Imperium Skywell. 300 mile range, $43K before Alan's dreaded subsidies.  Monroe Associates love it so much, they just bought one.
https://imperiumev.com/sev
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAXLRS4IPB8

This review is on the premium edition, which has a few more bells and whistles.
I agree with you that China is going to eventually be a player here. Not yet though.  They have no dealerships.  The cars ship in from Canada. Where do you go for  repairs?   What is the repair history? There is none to gauge.  The video said there was a seal or something missing.  Who fixes that and where?   How many more defects have to be fixed that the guy doesn't even know about?  More importantly, what will be the amortization for this car?  What will it be worth when you go to sell it in three years?  There's no history.  What if they run into problems like Evergrande?  Who;s going to honor any warranty when the batteries burns up?   

I buy Chinese stuff with the thought it may turn out bad.  But for $30 bucks or less, who cares?  I was just listening to recommendations about N95 masks which protect us the best.  They say that 60% of the ones from China are knockoffs and are not NIOSH government approved.


A buyer would be taking a big chance spending $30K with Chinese-made Imperium.   

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13599 on: January 14, 2022, 08:50:15 pm »

In over 100 years of environmental destruction, the FF companies have got off virtually scott free. We're left to clean up their mess, they're left with the money.
What does that have to do with $7500 tax credits for buyers of EV's?
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