Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[LesPalenik]

My experience is that everyone has cheated one time or another.

even the Pope and Mother Theresa?

[Craig Lamson]

even the Pope and Mother Theresa?

It is said the only perfect human was Jesus Christ.  So yes, probably.

[BernardLanguillier]

Sure Bernard, just for you. 

Positives
economic policies
deregulation
expansion of fracking permits which gave us energy independence for the first time in my life
his staunch defense of federalism (especially during the last year when he could have expanded the federal government easily but did not), even if it was unintentional
his judiciary picks including the three new Justices on the court
His foreign policy, all of it, especially getting out of the Iran Nuclear Deal
As an outsider non-politician, him not being bound to some sort of ethics in respecting all government institutions to the point of not questioning if they continue to serve a purpose.  For example, his question about whether NATO still serves a purpose since the USSR is no more or he pulling out of the WHO after it became obvious they are a shill for China.  Another, moving the embassy in Israel, something all republican presidents promised but never did. 

Negatives
Being an ass on twitter
Not realizing that, although he is great at branding, he sucks at communications and refusing to rely on his professionals
Giving too much into the religious right

Thanks Joe,

How about the following Trump aspects, that I consider to the essence of one one calls Trumpism:
- Constant lies
- Sexism
- No respect for science
- Inability to manage a team (how many guy has he fired from his own team?)
- Having largely contributed to the death of tens of thousands of Americans and having directly caused the economic downturn with his public denial of the significance of the covid crisis
- No respect for war veterans
- Lack of ethics (sexual,...)
- Pretense to support religious positions while he obviously doesn't give a shit
- Complete lack of respect for the role of media challenging his positions as they should
- Attacks on the foundations of Democracy clearly visible during this election
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard

[digitaldog]

Available on Amazon and elsewhere so it must be true:

[faberryman]

Well look,  someone is actually doing the work of investigation.  It’s a start.

If suits are being dismissed for lack of evidence, it doesn’t seem like they have actually done an investigation.

[digitaldog]

If suits are being dismissed for lack of evidence, it doesn’t seem like they have actually done an investigation.

There is an old adage in law. If you don't have facts on your side, then argue the law. If you don't have the law on your side, then argue the facts. Trump has neither.

[Craig Lamson]

If suits are being dismissed for lack of evidence, it doesn’t seem like they have actually done an investigation.

This was in respect to the dead votes.

Jonathan Turley has some interesting things to say about the vote fraud issue.

Rather than quote and link a bunch of stuff here is the duckduckgo if you are interested. 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Jonathan+Turley+2020+voter+fraud&t=ipad&ia=web

[faberryman]

There is an old adage in law. If you don't have facts on your side, then argue the law. If you don't have the law on your side, then argue the facts. Trump has neither.

The punchline to that adage is that if you have neither the facts nor the law on your side, pound on the table.

[Peter McLennan]

My experience is that everyone has cheated one time or another.

Probably true. That doesn't excuse it.

In any case, surely nobody in recent memory has cheated (or lied) so frequently, so publicly or so transparently on issues of such importance.

Why people continue to excuse such blatantly immoral behaviour, let alone venerate i and him, it is beyond imagining.


Besides, cheating at golf is basically cheating oneself.  From whence comes the excusing of that?

[Robert Roaldi]

Team Trump won one today. I don't know if there will be an appeal. I don't know how many ballots are affected, or the number of votes Biden and Trump will each be deprived of. I am somewhat surprised by the ruling and would like to read the legal briefs to determine if an estoppel argument was made.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pennsylvania-court-secretary-of-state-changed-deadline

I get it that rules are rules but not counting real votes from actual citizens because of some dumb 2-day semi-clerical error is a bit much. I think the more proper way to handle it would be to point out the mistake to the guy, tell him not to do that again and forget it. I mean, what's really important here. It's not as if someone manufactured 40,000 fake ballots during those 2 days. Maybe I'm too cynical but is this a valid way to spend taxpayer money?

[Peter McLennan]

(JoeKitchen's arguments for Trump in bold)
Positives
economic policies
debatable.  trade wars are seldom productive.  re-negotiation of NAFTA an exercise in futility.  No significant change evident.  Attempted to tariff Canadian aluminum, weaseled out when he realized that America needs our aluminum for aircraft and beer cans.

deregulation
Caused more harm than good - shrinking parkland, encouraging coal-sourced energy, reducing clean air and water protections, reducing financial regulation, repeatedly hiring inexperienced, incompetent, negligent, criminal idiots who were dismissed or forced to resign due to malfeasance of one kind or another. Bailed on globally agreed Paris climate accord, to world-wide dismay.

expansion of fracking permits which gave us energy independence for the first time in my life
see above  - tell that to the people in PA whose well water is flammable and undrinkable, if they still have any.  Besides, fossil fuels are a sunset industry.  Yes, we still need them, but far, far less in the future. For one salient reason: renewables are cheaper.


his staunch defense of federalism (especially during the last year when he could have expanded the federal government easily but did not), even if it was unintentional

and increasing the extent of presidential power, sorta like Cheney.  Not good for anyone except him.

his judiciary picks including the three new Justices on the court

debatably beneficial to a subset of the population, not all Americans

His foreign policy, all of it, especially getting out of the Iran Nuclear Deal

this despite the recent approval of several western governments regarding Biden's intention to revoke this disaster

As an outsider non-politician, him not being bound to some sort of ethics in respecting all government institutions to the point of not questioning if they continue to serve a purpose. 
A hopelessly unskilled politician, the laughingstock of much of the world's governments.

For example, his question about whether NATO still serves a purpose since the USSR is no more or he pulling out of the WHO after it became obvious they are a shill for China. 

USSR is no more. Russia exists.  WHO being a shill for China is just dumb.

Another, moving the embassy in Israel, something all republican presidents promised but never did.

appealing again to a subset of Americans and a blatant sop to a political ally (Netanyahu)

Negatives
Being an ass on twitter
"ass" doesn't begin to cover it.  see "laughingstock", above.

Not realizing that, although he is great at branding, he sucks at communications and refusing to rely on his professionals

"I know more than my generals", "I know more about drones than you do", "I'm a stable genius", "I'm here and you're not"
if that constitutes "good branding" in your opinion, I suggest you watch some Apple marketing, gold-plated toilets notwithstanding.

Giving too much into the religious right
On that we agree.  One doesn't have to wonder where his appeal to the RR comes from.  I loved it when someone asked him what parts of the bible he liked the best. He couldn't answer.

[Craig Lamson]

Probably true. That doesn't excuse it.

In any case, surely nobody in recent memory has cheated (or lied) so frequently, so publicly or so transparently on issues of such importance.

Why people continue to excuse such blatantly immoral behaviour, let alone venerate i and him, it is beyond imagining.


Besides, cheating at golf is basically cheating oneself.  From whence comes the excusing of that?

Biden has just as many warts he's just not called on them.  Most if not every politicain is a liar and a cheat.  Its part and parcel of the breed IMO.  We pick the choice that best suits our needs and wants and Trump was far better for me and about 1/2 of America than Clinton or Biden.  I'm really happy with with what Trump accomplished and saved.  I rather doubt I will be able to say the same for Biden.

[LesPalenik]

Biden has just as many warts he's just not called on them.  Most if not every politicain is a liar and a cheat.  Its part and parcel of the breed IMO.  We pick the choice that best suits our needs and wants and Trump was far better for me and about 1/2 of America than Clinton or Biden.  I'm really happy with with what Trump accomplished and saved.  I rather doubt I will be able to say the same for Biden.

For many people Trump is a hero and for others a supervillain. When it comes to lies and hasty and stupid decisions, Trump gets the top prize. I don't think, there will ever be a president like him.

[JoeKitchen]

Thanks Joe,

How about the following Trump aspects, that I consider to the essence of one one calls Trumpism:
- Constant lies (sure, although it is typically exaggeration always in the right direction)
- Sexism
- No respect for science
- Inability to manage a team (how many guy has he fired from his own team?)  I'll give you this one; even if he did have legit legal cases that would overturn the results in each state he needs it to, I doubt it would happen due to this and his inability to pick the right lawyers. 
- Having largely contributed to the death of tens of thousands of Americans and having directly caused the economic downturn with his public denial of the significance of the covid crisis
- No respect for war veterans
- Lack of ethics (sexual,...)
- Pretense to support religious positions while he obviously doesn't give a shit  I kind of touched on this btw
- Complete lack of respect for the role of media challenging his positions as they should Let me add to this, I have problem with the media challenging Republicans, just that they never challenge Dems.  It should be fair, but it is obvious it is not; that is why they are fake news.  The never go tough on Dems. 
- Attacks on the foundations of Democracy clearly visible during this election
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard

There, I fixed it for you Bernard, and struck the ones you got wrong and are only listed due to your TDS. 

As for the ones I did not strike out, yes, those are faults as well that I would love if he did not have.  But hey, at least he's not like the Obamas, blaming every single thing on race, going out of their way to divide us more. 

[JoeKitchen]

(JoeKitchen's arguments for Trump in bold)
Positives
economic policies
debatable.  trade wars are seldom productive.  re-negotiation of NAFTA an exercise in futility.  No significant change evident.  Attempted to tariff Canadian aluminum, weaseled out when he realized that America needs our aluminum for aircraft and beer cans.

deregulation
Caused more harm than good - shrinking parkland, encouraging coal-sourced energy, reducing clean air and water protections, reducing financial regulation, repeatedly hiring inexperienced, incompetent, negligent, criminal idiots who were dismissed or forced to resign due to malfeasance of one kind or another. Bailed on globally agreed Paris climate accord, to world-wide dismay.

expansion of fracking permits which gave us energy independence for the first time in my life
see above  - tell that to the people in PA whose well water is flammable and undrinkable, if they still have any.  Besides, fossil fuels are a sunset industry.  Yes, we still need them, but far, far less in the future. For one salient reason: renewables are cheaper.


his staunch defense of federalism (especially during the last year when he could have expanded the federal government easily but did not), even if it was unintentional

and increasing the extent of presidential power, sorta like Cheney.  Not good for anyone except him.

his judiciary picks including the three new Justices on the court

debatably beneficial to a subset of the population, not all Americans

His foreign policy, all of it, especially getting out of the Iran Nuclear Deal

this despite the recent approval of several western governments regarding Biden's intention to revoke this disaster

As an outsider non-politician, him not being bound to some sort of ethics in respecting all government institutions to the point of not questioning if they continue to serve a purpose. 
A hopelessly unskilled politician, the laughingstock of much of the world's governments.

For example, his question about whether NATO still serves a purpose since the USSR is no more or he pulling out of the WHO after it became obvious they are a shill for China. 

USSR is no more. Russia exists.  WHO being a shill for China is just dumb.

Another, moving the embassy in Israel, something all republican presidents promised but never did.

appealing again to a subset of Americans and a blatant sop to a political ally (Netanyahu)

Negatives
Being an ass on twitter
"ass" doesn't begin to cover it.  see "laughingstock", above.

Not realizing that, although he is great at branding, he sucks at communications and refusing to rely on his professionals

"I know more than my generals", "I know more about drones than you do", "I'm a stable genius", "I'm here and you're not"
if that constitutes "good branding" in your opinion, I suggest you watch some Apple marketing, gold-plated toilets notwithstanding.

Giving too much into the religious right
On that we agree.  One doesn't have to wonder where his appeal to the RR comes from.  I loved it when someone asked him what parts of the bible he liked the best. He couldn't answer.

Oh God, where to even start with this. 

Pulling out of regulations sure did help the economy, and the Paris Accords does nothing but cost money.  We lowered our emissions by an amount great than what was called for in the accords anyway. 

Renewables are not cheaper!  You have to be a fool to believe this.  They just are not!

This is why energy prices always go up when you start incorperation renewables in your energy system.  Nuclear is the only energy source that can compete with fossil fuels. 

He did not increase the power of the president; Obama did that when he ruled by pen and phone.  He used much less presidential orders then Obama, and, well, Biden it looks like it.  Hopefully the SCOTUS stops all of Biden's orders. 

You, in other countries, may have not liked his foreign policy, but we sure did.  Peace in the Middle East being the best of it. 

Insofar as NATO, yes, Russia still exist, but Germany and other major players in the EU are warming up to working wit Russia.  Kind of calls into question what NATO is for if they are fine building pipelines and such with them.  And, yes, WHO is a shill for China. 

The moving of the embassy was probably is most strategic foreign policy decision.  First, it was mandated by congress decades ago, but he finally did it.  Second, unlike what all the experts said, it did not cause any wars or unrest.  Third, it showed Israel, and others in the area, he would keep his word.  It was this action that lead to Trump getting the three peace deals in the ME. 

Skipping to your branding comment, none of what you listed was branding, but communications.  Learn the difference. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Now and then I see speculative articles about whether Trump can pardon himself and that prompts some questions that I hope someone can answer.

How does a Presidential pardon work, exactly? My impression, from comments on these pages, is that a President can only pardon federal crimes. But can he pardon someone for crimes for which they have not been indicted, sort of a blanket pardon that covers indictments that haven't been brought to bear yet. If so, that seems more like stopping an investigation pardoning a crime. This applies to situations in which the (alleged) offence has already taken place.

Which brings me to this. Does the pardon only cover actions that have already taken place? Presumably, even after being pardoned for crime A, if the offender later commits crime B, can a pardon cover that, so that he is being pardoned for crimes he hasn't committed yet? That seems wrong to me.

I ask because if there is talk of Trump pardoning himself, any pardon would effectively be for actions that no one has formally accused him of yet. Does it make sense to be pardoned for those (if any)?

Just my two cents. If a President can pardon himself, then don't you effectively have a near-King who is above the law? That seems to go against the foundations of the US.

[JV]

He did not increase the power of the president; Obama did that when he ruled by pen and phone.  He used much less presidential orders then Obama

Except he did not.  Trump signed more executive orders per year than Obama, same for George W Bush and Ronald Reagan.  The only recent president to sign less executive orders than Obama was Bill Clinton.  You should check your facts first.

[armand]

Trump respecting science is a bad joke, one only his minions would believe.
Right now the Covid pandemic is at its worst. The midwest at least is a shitshow, the hospitals are overstretched and most importantly, people are on the edge.
Instead on focusing on dealing with this all we’ll hear is how many dead people voted for Biden instead of him.

[Alan Klein]

For many people Trump is a hero and for others a supervillain. When it comes to lies and hasty and stupid decisions, Trump gets the top prize. I don't think, there will ever be a president like him.

He's neither.  I'd place him in the middle but it's too early to make final conclusion.  Things have to play out first.  Judge a president by what happened during his term.  The country did pretty well economically until Covid and he got us out of wars and started no new ones.  No 9-11's. There's greater peace between Israel and Arabs.  He set Iran back on their heels in their move to control the Middle east and become a nuclear power. We became oil independent reducing our chances of being dragged into more wars in the Middle East. North Korea stopped testing nukes and ICBM's.  IF you recall, we were almost at war with them until his meeting with Kim. NATO Europe is contributing more to the common defense saving American tax payers' money. 

I think he failed in reducing the cost of government.  He printed too much money.  His attempt to stop China from stealing our intellectual property and the South China Sea was a work in progress.  We'll see what Biden does with this. 

All the angst you're talking about kept everyone entertained. But it had little effect in actual policy and results. A little less of the noise will probably be good for our spirits.   

[faberryman]

It was only a matter of time.

Law Firm Stops Representing Trump Campaign in Pennsylvania Suit

"Porter Wright Morris & Arthur, the law firm leading the Trump campaign’s efforts to cast doubt on the presidential election results in Pennsylvania, abruptly withdrew from a federal lawsuit that it filed days earlier on behalf of President Trump."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/13/business/porter-wright-trump-pennsylvania.html

It is a NYT article. Perhaps you have a free article left so you can read it, if you are interested.